Paddle Shifting (for MT)

[Tamago]

good afternoon everyone..

i am in the process of building a paddle-shift system to be used on any manual transmission that utilizes cables for shifting. the system will utilize two pneumatic cylinders with positional feedback switches, 4 three-way pneumatic valves, a PLC, a small air compressor and tank, and switches mounted either to a sandwich adaptor (for aftermarket 6bolt steering wheels) with paddles integrated or limit switches to be mounted under the shifter to sense fore-aft motion. i currently predict this kit to sell for around $1000..

anyone interested?

[mikenacarato]

well it definately sounds awesome! i am more of the normal manual shift type but for those who want paddles its your chance! :)

[Tamago]

fyi your clutch will be fully functional (and required) and i will integrate a small air cylinder to blip the throttle on downshifts..

[mikenacarato]

thats cool. but can you retain the stock shifting mechanism for street driving if you choose?

[cali yaris]

Looking forward to pics and a review of your prototype :wink:

[at3GG]

This would be cool as sh*t

[Nexus1155]

http://www.m7tuning.com/parts/product_info.php?cPath=7_1&products_id=123

Mini also has a system like this you might want to check out for ideas and whatnot... looks promising..

[TheRealEnth]

would they work in AT? i got confused by the website selling em for Automatic?

[Tamago]

Mastershift makes these....I've been looking in to them...

http://www.mastershift.com/

Cheers

that website makes me sad..

first, it's only for transmissions with the stick ON the trans (RWD setups)

second all they show you is pretty pictures of the paddles.

here's my work so far



my initial design will be for MT only.

here's my chicken scratches from last night..

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/logicsketch.jpg

and my truth table.. gotta integrate this into the programming now.. my brain hurts

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/truthtable.jpg

i1-i4 are cylinder position feedback inputs (so the PLC knows what gear you're in)

i5 is "upshift" input from the paddles
i6 is "downshift" input from the paddles

Q1-Q4 are outputs for the valves that will control the cylinders

[custom Lftback]

that website makes me sad..

first, it's only for transmissions with the stick ON the trans (RWD setups)

second all they show you is pretty pictures of the paddles.

here's my work so far



my initial design will be for MT only.

here's my chicken scratches from last night..

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/logicsketch.jpg

and my truth table.. gotta integrate this into the programming now.. my brain hurts

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/truthtable.jpg

i1-i4 are cylinder position feedback inputs (so the PLC knows what gear you're in)

i5 is "upshift" input from the paddles
i6 is "downshift" input from the paddles

Q1-Q4 are outputs for the valves that will control the cylinders

:eyebulge: :eyebulge: :bow:
great work!

[eTiMaGo]

well, I'm certainly interested in the technology behind it, it is an awesome project, too bad you can't integrate the clutch :frown:

[Tamago]

well, I'm certainly interested in the technology behind it, it is an awesome project, too bad you can't integrate the clutch :frown:

i personally would HATE to lose my clutch..

[eTiMaGo]

well doing it as a clutch override would be ideal I guess, so you retain normal control of it. Seeing as it's a hydraulic setup (at least on our cars, not sure about the xA), it should be possible given the right engineering? Or maybe as a future upgrade :biggrin:

[Tamago]

well doing it as a clutch override would be ideal I guess, so you retain normal control of it. Seeing as it's a hydraulic setup (at least on our cars, not sure about the xA), it should be possible given the right engineering? Or maybe as a future upgrade :biggrin:


entirely possible. this unit will most likely have a throttle blip on downshifts.. to do clutch you integrate a large number of things and will require a plc that costs about triple of the little Siemens unit i'm using (6 inputs, 4 outputs)

[eTiMaGo]

all right, gotcha :smile: it'll still be pretty awesome as you are planning it!

[id3379]

well, I'm certainly interested in the technology behind it, it is an awesome project, too bad you can't integrate the clutch :frown:


if you take away the clutch, you might as well have a automatic.

[Tamago]

well, i just finished the PLC program.. i know a screenshot is pretty useless, but this is what 7 positions look like (1-5 + N + R) and what it takes to cycle through all of them.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/paddleshift2-1.jpg

i'm not gonna mess with the program anymore until i get all the components here.. checking the interlocks without physical movement is making me go cross-eyed

[Tamago]

i modified a stock shift cage to only go forward and backwards.. will mount this guide plate in place with a spring load to keep it centered, then limit switches will be mounted on the other side of the plate

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/Photo0498.jpg

[Tamago]

btw i'll be doing paddle shifts on the steering wheel as well.. i want to put some serious thought into the design (thinking something like the IS-F) and this stock shifter will get me going in the right direction

[mikenacarato]

ah so were going sequential shifter style first. haha sweet

[Tamago]

ah so were going sequential shifter style first. haha sweet

yup, i want the paddle shifter setup to be perfect.. still planning the billet piece that'll have to be made to make it work.. when it's over you'll have both options

[id3379]

woot, good progress so far, keep it up

[whooppee777]

this is so awesome and confusing all at once. I LOVE IT!

[Tamago]

here's the work i've done to my old stock shift cage to turn it from H pattern to fore/aft only..



http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/Photo0503.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/Photo0505.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/th_Video0046.jpg (http://s40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/?action=view&current=Video0046.flv)

[Tamago]

here's the shifter with the limit switches installed.. due to UPS taking their sweet ass time this project will not be done till after thanksgiving :(

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/limitsinplace.jpg

[kou]

very impresive,keep up the good work.

[Stoln]

If you can master this setup than work on an auto setup, i'd be down with that. Paddle shifting like the Fit Sport on the Yaris would be cool and the RS Yaris should have had it. I am patiently waiting for this

[Tamago]

If you can master this setup than work on an auto setup, i'd be down with that. Paddle shifting like the Fit Sport on the Yaris would be cool and the RS Yaris should have had it. I am patiently waiting for this

i'm just not sure why you'd want to shift an auto ?

[id3379]

nice work so far man. Coming along good.

[Gideon]

Subscribed! This looks amazing! Are you going to add in some sort of gear display that shows what your current gear is?

[Tamago]

Subscribed! This looks amazing! Are you going to add in some sort of gear display that shows what your current gear is?

i will have to get a bigger (more outputs) PLC to do that unfortunately.. that or a ton of relays.. i'm definitely trying to figure out how to do it inexpensively :D

[WolfWings]

that website makes me sad..

first, it's only for transmissions with the stick ON the trans (RWD setups)

second all they show you is pretty pictures of the paddles.

Wrong on both counts actually. :-)

Their Street Manual All Products (http://mastershift.com/products_street_manual.html) page shows good images of the actual modules that bolt in place of the stock shifter assembly to control the existing cable-drive stuff.

*ALL* their systems are designed to work with cable-driven transmissions actually.

[Tamago]

Wrong on both counts actually. :-)

Their Street Manual All Products (http://mastershift.com/products_street_manual.html) page shows good images of the actual modules that bolt in place of the stock shifter assembly to control the existing cable-drive stuff.

*ALL* their systems are designed to work with cable-driven transmissions actually.

The MasterShift™ Manual Shifter supports Tremec TKO, Tremec T-56, Tremec TR-3650, RBT-5 (formally the ZF), and RBT-6. Coming soon! Hardware for the C5/C6/Z06!

which of these is a cable shift manual transmission?

either way, the intent of my setup is to do away with cables ;)

[Tamago]

picked up my enclosure from the wonderful folks at City Electric today..

here's the basic layout of the parts. i gotta pick up a piece of DIN rail, hope i can find a manifold for the valves, and will most likely mount the power supply (lower left, converts 12V into 24V) on a 90degree angle.. contemplating a cooling fan but not sure if i'll be generating that much heat

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Photo0524.jpg

[WolfWings]

which of these is a cable shift manual transmission?

either way, the intent of my setup is to do away with cables ;)

They're specifying that they support some of the transmissions that a lot of 'universal sequential shifter kits' don't, because the stock transmission is a rod-linked assembly or true top-mount shifter. Those are the transmissions that they specifically have adapter modules designed and tested for to link to their cable-shifter two-servos-in-a-box brain, and pre-programmed settings for said brain-in-a-box. And said vehicles are expensive enough to justify a $1900-$2400 paddle-shifter kit. :-)

The MasterShift kit comes with a programming cable and software CD for a reason: It's for setting the distances the box actually has to shift the cable-linkages for the gate-selector and syncro-selector inputs, and specifying paths and routes for the shifting to follow.

And any cable linkage can be replaced with a hydraulic linkage, witness modern brakes versus the old cable-powered brakes used as recently at the 80's. Hell, many vehicles with in-board brakes (brakes mounted beside the differential, bolted to the chassis instead of part of the wheel assembly, Jaguar's and Hummer-1's mostly) can have hard brake line going all the way to the brake calipers.

They'd use hydraulics more places, but it's a lot more expensive to design and prone to maintenance headaches than a length of steel rope inside a plastic sheath, which is almost all a transmission-cable is since it doesn't have to deal with large forces like brakes do/did.

Didn't mean to come off as knockin' on the work you're doing, it's looking awesome so far. :-)

[Tamago]

Didn't mean to come off as knockin' on the work you're doing, it's looking awesome so far. :-)

yeah i'd only poked around their site slightly til now. they do seem to cover their bases but like i said my real issue is the actual cables being in the way of the downpipe so doing away with them and replacing with DOT airbrake line i can mount well away from the heat is the idea here..

i'm jealous of their paddle controls :(

[mikenacarato]

very nice work so far!

[WolfWings]

yeah i'd only poked around their site slightly til now. they do seem to cover their bases but like i said my real issue is the actual cables being in the way of the downpipe so doing away with them and replacing with DOT airbrake line i can mount well away from the heat is the idea here..

i'm jealous of their paddle controls :(

They do offer the paddle shifter sets by themselves (http://mastershift.com/newstore.html) on their store page. Including the wireless ones that you just strap to the steering wheel, though you do have to change the batteries in those periodically. I'd go for that approach myself, since I have a leather sewn-on steering wheel cover I can just re-sew over the binding straps to hide them on the wireless units.

If nothing else, if you could figure out how to be electrically compatable with their paddle-shifter sets it'd make it one less part to deal with being the only source of yourself if/when you sell these later.

[Tamago]

They do offer the paddle shifter sets by themselves (http://mastershift.com/newstore.html) on their store page. Including the wireless ones that you just strap to the steering wheel, though you do have to change the batteries in those periodically. I'd go for that approach myself, since I have a leather sewn-on steering wheel cover I can just re-sew over the binding straps to hide them on the wireless units.

If nothing else, if you could figure out how to be electrically compatable with their paddle-shifter sets it'd make it one less part to deal with being the only source of yourself if/when you sell these later.

if i read that right, the basic paddle setup is $70? :w00t: that's my price range lol

called them... their website is shit.. that's $70 for a PADDLESHIFT UPGRADE.. sold separately they want $375.

stay tuned for something made by me for $70 lmfao

[thewifesyaris]

I'll probably get burned for saying this, but why the hell didn't you just buy a Fit?

[Tamago]

I'll probably get burned for saying this, but why the hell didn't you just buy a Fit?

where should i start....

and the paddle shifters in a fit are for the autoTRAGIC gearbox

[Tamago]

in prep for the trans going back in today after work, i set up the air cylinders.. still have to make the connecting linkage between cyl rod and shift rod but i'm pretty sure it'll be cake

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/Project%20Angry%20Panda/cylsmounted.jpg

[mikenacarato]

you should try to fit the nst bushings in there :)

[Tamago]

you should try to fit the nst bushings in there :)

lol what? why would i do that?

[Gideon]

lol what? why would i do that?

So the air cylinders have a more solid shift! They'll complain later that it feels mushy.

[Tamago]

So the air cylinders have a more solid shift! They'll complain later that it feels mushy.

i'll probably be going to a softer material..

[Gideon]

i'll probably be going to a softer material..

Just know that when you finish, you'll be required to make TONS of videos showing it off. :biggrin:

Also nice sig. :wink:

[Tamago]

i'll do my best to have it done by the weekend

[mikenacarato]

haha im loving this tamago..keep it up

[Russelt3hPirate]

Looks good.

how easy would this be to install if the trans was already outside of the vehicle?

[Tamago]

Looks good.

how easy would this be to install if the trans was already outside of the vehicle?

outside or inside?

i wouldn't risk having those lil cylinders bolted to the trans during the re-installation

[Russelt3hPirate]

good point, but I assume it'd be easier to setup outside the car, then bolt on the cylinders.

[Tamago]

good point, but I assume it'd be easier to setup outside the car, then bolt on the cylinders.

this is how it was done :D

cylinders are not in right now, figured i'd give the trans a few days of shakedown before going to the air setup. stay tuned

[Russelt3hPirate]

this is how it was done :D

cylinders are not in right now, figured i'd give the trans a few days of shakedown before going to the air setup. stay tuned

wuss, i thought you were going straight to sequential-style :D

[Tamago]

wuss, i thought you were going straight to sequential-style :D

ever lifted a transmission in over your head by hand with no assistance?

:iono:

or done an oilchange without help?

:iono:

:eyebulge:

[Russelt3hPirate]

ever lifted a transmission in over your head by hand with no assistance?

:iono:


sheesh. so touchy. :bellyroll:



or done an oilchange without help?

:iono:


haha, a few times. Hell Abby did Russell's (The Yaris's) last oil change all by her lonesome. :)


:eyebulge:

:eyebulge:

[eTiMaGo]

so... any updates?

[Tamago]

so... any updates?

no.. everything's on hold right now. i'm having some serious clutch issues (non paddleshift setup) so the trans will be coming down again as soon as i can afford an un-sprung disk. THIS TIME when it's out i'll get everything going. i'm really only short a few parts to complete but right now.. with the way money's been, i can't justify the cost :frown:

[Jerkratt]

well now that i read this im going to check this thread out and see updates...

[TheRealEnth]

Dont worry Im going to make this happen =)

[rob323]

Love the ingenuity, wish I had the electronics background to be able to do this sort of stuff.
How do you control the throw if the pistons so that you don't overshift the gears? Do you have physical stops on the gearbox casing for this?

[Tamago]

bumping this so people will yell at me to finish already lol. i still need a pressure switch and sort out my plumbing issues and i should be ready to get this thing done already :D

[Tamago]

Love the ingenuity, wish I had the electronics background to be able to do this sort of stuff.
How do you control the throw if the pistons so that you don't overshift the gears? Do you have physical stops on the gearbox casing for this?

the air cylinders themselves actually are of perfect stroke length :) i got lucky!

[mrbond]

Subscribed. I don't know how I didn't see this before.
Tamago, are you still planning a SMT setup with your shifter cage? Or what's the deal with that?

[Tamago]

Subscribed. I don't know how I didn't see this before.
Tamago, are you still planning a SMT setup with your shifter cage? Or what's the deal with that?

well i currently haven't come up with a plan for the actual paddles. for now i'm gonna use the stock shifter i have wired up. in the future though i'll def try to make some easy paddles :)

[mrbond]

For sure. Yeah, that's the one thing about the Fit I kinda like - the paddle shifting. But I don't like the idea that an automatic is required for that perk.

[Tamago]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M3-SMG-LOOK-SHIFT-PADDLE-NISSAN-240SX-S13-300ZX-350Z_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q 7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a317Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3 a2Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem 20ac36dfb5QQitemZ140328230837QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fT ruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

+

custom modify

=

win?

[mrbond]

naw. = fail x2. First, they're pretty unattractive. Second, they'd require so much modification to work with a real SMT setup that you're better off just machining really pretty pieces. The bracket miiiiiight be worth the cost...

[AlexNet0]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/M3-SMG-LOOK-SHIFT-PADDLE-NISSAN-240SX-S13-300ZX-350Z_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trkparmsZ65Q3a12Q7c66Q3a2Q 7c39Q3a1Q7c72Q3a317Q7c240Q3a1318Q7c301Q3a0Q7c293Q3 a2Q7c294Q3a50QQ_trksidZp3286Q2ec0Q2em14QQhashZitem 20ac36dfb5QQitemZ140328230837QQptZMotorsQ5fCarQ5fT ruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories

+

custom modify

=

win?


Exactly what just popped into my head when I read the must recent posts. same item, lol. I personally have no idea how to do it, though.

[Tamago]

Exactly what just popped into my head when I read the must recent posts. same item, lol. I personally have no idea how to do it, though.

i'd probably put microswitches in the joints where the ugly bolts hold the center to the paddles themselves..

hmm

tempted to buy :D

[AlexNet0]

i'd probably put microswitches in the joints where the ugly bolts hold the center to the paddles themselves..

hmm

tempted to buy :D

lol, I was thinking buy two of them (for 9.99 a piece with free shipping)
cut off the "paddles" that are on them, and space them by 1/8th inch so you have some room between to play with and still be able to bolt it on so your switches wont be exposed.

[kngrsll]

you guys are insane LOL.

my only shifting mod was an extension and knob so i could shift faster (bc my hand has to move less distance if you dont follow)

I think even if i get a Ferrari F430, id rather have a manual box. I drove an M5 with paddles and i didnt like it and thats a pretty good system.

[Tamago]

Tamago have you tested the PLC (what kind) for response time and delays? I would suspect your setup to require fast response time. Would it interest you to try and see if a micro controller could do a better job? And it would be easily upgradeable. Atmel has some good and inexpensive uCs

oh and would the paddles follow the steering a la F1 or be stationary ?

i'm pretty sure the PLC is up to the task, we'll see though! the paddles at this point will most likely move with the steering wheel :)

[Nexus1155]

I can't wait to see this thing in action, but i don't know why anyone wouldnt have it F1 style, what if you need to upshift or downshift when turning who wants to have to move their hand back to a center position? lol I'm sure Tamago is smarter than that

[panoramix3519]

My friend you have finished because i have finish it and now i am waiting for the compressor so in one search to google for something i have find yours.
I put the link to see what i have done if you need help tell me.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_P0LiWrZx3E&feature=g-all-c
read the description to understand what i have done

[cali yaris]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQO4y8aSF_UH99xtGivOqKTHm2iyAOz9 9mNOKdPbJyd5QxuQw0RdUnad3Ep

[1.5]

no more necromancer lol

[cali yaris]

^ I play the card I think is needed. :laugh:

[panoramix3519]

no more necromancer lol
sory for my english but what is necromancer what do you mean?

[Jerkratt]

Do it!

[mazilla]

That video is pretty sweet, but that's a lot of hardware...

[1.5]

sory for my english but what is necromancer what do you mean?

is a claimed form of magic involving communication with the deceased

wikipedia

:laughabove:

[panoramix3519]

the hardware is the compressor the logo and the block of valves you can put them in a box 15x30cm. And if you read the description of the video i will not use all this thing the only thing from the construction that i will use is the 5 cylinders nothing else.

[panoramix3519]

this is the block of valves
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/imag0175hg.jpg/
this is the 5 cylinders
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/imag0176l.jpg/
and this is the logo with one expansion module
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/imag0179g.jpg/
thats all the hardware because i will put two wires to the stick at the same position with the two wires that the stick have now so i will move the stick and the stick will move the gearbox. The hardware is small and i can put it at the trunk in the room for the spare wheel so you cant see anything on the car.
and this is a screenshot from the program
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/imag0182m.jpg/

[CrankyOldMan]

Have any of you considered the MR2 spyder (sequential gearbox) steering wheel instead of adding paddles? Or for that matter, just shoehorning in the whole MR2 shift system?

[panoramix3519]

i dont know how is the wheel of mr2. But i give just two inputs for changing gear so you can put everything you want for switch. A button or paddles or stick with two switces at the botom or even the controls of radio. The only problem with me is that at my car the controls of my radio
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/imag0148u.jpg/
i have done them switches for the cruise control that i have fix.

[panoramix3519]

i dont know how is the wheel of mr2. But i give just two inputs for changing gear so you can put everything you want for switch. A button or paddles or stick with two switces at the botom or even the controls of radio. The only problem with me is that at my car the controls of my radio
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/imag0148u.jpg/
i have done them switches for the cruise control that i have fix.

and another problem for me is that i dont have toyota i have fiat as i have wrote at my profile. I just login here because i have seen that somebody was trying to do something like mine only from interesting

[cali yaris]

I have to say the video is pretty cool.

[panoramix3519]

i hope when i have the compressor and make some more adjustments at the stroke of eatch cylinder and the speed it will work perfect. My hope is that it will be much faster than hand and much more acurate so i win time and gearboxes.

[mazilla]

this is the block of valves
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/337/imag0175hg.jpg/
this is the 5 cylinders
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/571/imag0176l.jpg/
and this is the logo with one expansion module
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/821/imag0179g.jpg/
thats all the hardware because i will put two wires to the stick at the same position with the two wires that the stick have now so i will move the stick and the stick will move the gearbox. The hardware is small and i can put it at the trunk in the room for the spare wheel so you cant see anything on the car.
and this is a screenshot from the program
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/196/imag0182m.jpg/


Great, thank you for the perspective shots...I didn't realize everything was the size of a lighter! :w00t:

[panoramix3519]

And the construction with the cylinder it will be the half because the most things on it i have put them just for now to help me write the program and all the safety circuits of the program. I have tryed to guess every mistake that can happen and if everything wrong hapend the program will push the clutch and put neutral by its own.

[panoramix3519]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6bCeb1H-Zw
and now working but not finished yet

[Tamago]

Have any of you considered the MR2 spyder (sequential gearbox) steering wheel instead of adding paddles? Or for that matter, just shoehorning in the whole MR2 shift system?

that system is total garbage, and should have never been built.

[panoramix3519]

My friend TAMAGO have you finished it? (sorry for my english is not so good)

[Tamago]

No, i never did finish it. i sold the car it was supposed to go in, and moved on. I also sold the Siemens PLC.. many many years ago ;)

[dmacnz]

No, i never did finish it. i sold the car it was supposed to go in, and moved on. I also sold the Siemens PLC.. many many years ago ;)

Anyone else try this?!

Just ordered a PLC and some actuators!
Keen to give it a try!
Seems to be very limited info around!

Seems this is the only working system I can find!