Long Tube Header Dyno results & Photo [Archive] - Toyota Yaris Forums

richardholdener

11-18-2008, 02:55 AM

Here is the graph of the dyno testing on the long tube header. The three runs represent the stock exhaust system, removal of the stock exhaust (running open exhuast manifold) and then the long-tube header and 2.5-inch exhaust section. We ran a 2.25 section with no change in power. System will be mild steel, header will require custom mid pipe wich will be made to go with header and pricing for both will be near $550 (waiting for official production quotes). If we get 10 people wanting this (gains are impressive), I will make a production run. The system will need a secondary oxygen simualtor (ask cali) to eliminate CEL but it causes no problems with power or driveability. Also check out posts on NST dyno results and new NA power record.

mikenacarato

11-18-2008, 03:00 AM

man i would hop on it but im going to be out of money after your manifold. :(

pinoypizzaboy

11-18-2008, 03:00 AM

OMG im goin crazehhhhhh. so many new stuff so little time. since im in vegas can i see your work please?

richardholdener

11-18-2008, 03:14 AM

I tried to upload photo of long-tube header but I think it was too large-I e-mailed to fellow enthusiasts and hopefully he will post it here tomorrow.

taKuto

11-18-2008, 12:50 PM

i guess he posted it in the other thread but not this one

jkuchta

11-18-2008, 01:00 PM

I know it's early, but could you find out what this thing will cost done in 304 SS?

CASTREX

11-18-2008, 01:17 PM

i guess he posted it in the other thread but not this one

haha sorry I posted in the wrong thread. :redface:

Yeap, that is the picture of the Yaris long tube header from Richard.

CASTREX

11-18-2008, 01:27 PM

Hey Richard,

Would you care to educate us a little bit on the theory behind this long tube header design.
You have explained a lot about the theories involved in the Intake manifold tuning and such...

We all know the main idea of an aftermarket header is to improve the flow of the exhaust gases into the exhaust pipe. People often debate also between the pro's and con's of 4-1 vs 4-2-1 designs.

So what is behind this long tube design of yours? :biggrin:

richardholdener

11-18-2008, 01:39 PM

Headers operate on the same principle as intake manifolds. The primary length is tuned to optimize scavenging (using a negative pressure wave reflected back to the open exhaust valve) that helps draw more intake charge into the combustion chamber. The header does not simply allow the exhaust to flow better than the stock ex manifold (this is the case with a larger diamter, shorty style header), but the gains are miniaml compared to teh long tube since the stock header is not terrbibly restrictive to flow. Gains from changes soley in exhaust flow are minimal as indicated by the gains offered by dropping the whole exhaust system (cats and mid pipe-middle line in graph). The real gains come from the scavenging effect produced by the combination of design characteristics of the header. We tried a number of different primary lengths and diamters as well as several collector designs to fine tune the gains. 4:1 and Tri-Y headers can be tuned to produce the same power curves-one is not inherantly better than another at different engine speeds, though each design can offer somehting not available by combinations of the other (usually minor gains in power at distinct engine speeds-but this will be dependant on the engine combination-primarily cam timing, displacement and intake design). The right design for any single combination takes a lot of work. BTW-we tesed the header designs with both the stock and new intake.

Hey Richard,

Would you care to educate us a little bit on the theory behind this long tube header design.
You have explained a lot about the theories involved in the Intake manifold tuning and such...

We all know the main idea of an aftermarket header is to improve the flow of the exhaust gases into the exhaust pipe. People often debate also between the pro's and con's of 4-1 vs 4-2-1 designs.

So what is behind this long tube design of yours? :biggrin:

CASTREX

11-18-2008, 01:59 PM

Thanks :bow::bow:

kou

11-18-2008, 03:43 PM

more of my money coming your way. i want this.

tk-421

11-18-2008, 04:19 PM

I'm interested, although it's not immediately clear to me whether this header is a 4-1 or a 4-2-1 (or even if it really matters now). If someone would enlighten me I would certainly appreciate it.

kou

11-18-2008, 04:21 PM

4-1.

taKuto

11-18-2008, 05:02 PM

I'm interested, although it's not immediately clear to me whether this header is a 4-1 or a 4-2-1 (or even if it really matters now). If someone would enlighten me I would certainly appreciate it.

all four ports just are extended and merge together at one point. So it's a 4-1.
A 4-2-1 involves having a pair of ports merge, and then those merged pipes come together to the one pipe.

sorry i dont remember the correct terms at the moment, but hopefully you get the right idea.

so i guess it needs a complete custom exhaust route if we want to keep a cat and other stuff to pass emissions?

richardholdener

11-18-2008, 05:09 PM

The header isa 4:1 design. Since we remove the cats for header installation, the only way to install cats would be to reposition them downstream in the exhaust. The header will require and come with a dedicated mid pipe to connect header to axle back.

all four ports just are extended and merge together at one point. So it's a 4-1.
A 4-2-1 involves having a pair of ports merge, and then those merged pipes come together to the one pipe.

sorry i dont remember the correct terms at the moment, but hopefully you get the right idea.

so i guess it needs a complete custom exhaust route if we want to keep a cat and other stuff to pass emissions?

hatchbackkid82

11-18-2008, 05:12 PM

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CASTREX

11-18-2008, 05:14 PM

so i guess it needs a complete custom exhaust route if we want to keep a cat and other stuff to pass emissions?

This will be an "Off-road" set up since it's catless and it won't pass an emissions inspection.

In order to take your car to inspection you will probably have to keep your OE manifold and mid pipe with the OE cats and modify it to add a flange in a way that you can remove the long tube header and mid pipe and install the OE back for inspection purposes. :biggrin:

taKuto

11-18-2008, 05:15 PM

... header will require custom mid pipe wich will be made to go with header and pricing for both will be near $550 (waiting for official production quotes).

cost was listed in first post.

sounds like a pain to take on/off when i visit the track then :P

PETERPOOP

11-18-2008, 05:28 PM

wish i could run this but i'm planning on turboing later

pickledchang

11-18-2008, 05:31 PM

blacksandiegovitz

11-18-2008, 07:06 PM

So this will be sold with a mid-pipe that will bolt up to aftermarket or stock axle-backs right ? Is there any dyno pulls with a yaris running the long tube header , mid-pipe , and the intake manifold ???? Would a yaris be able to lay down 130+ to the wheels with , only bolt-ons Ie : long tube header, Midpipe, intake , intake manifold , nst pulleys , and axle back muffler?

CASTREX

11-18-2008, 07:14 PM

whoguy

11-18-2008, 08:05 PM

Richard..... the position of the O2 sensor is only on one exhaust pipe rather than at the join.

This will mean the o2 sensor will see lower readings and will run the engine rich......

Running rich may give the impression of more power/performance.

richardholdener

11-18-2008, 08:33 PM

The oxygen sensor positon has no effect on the air/fuel ratio. You can run the sensor stuck in the end of the exhaust or in one individual tube, as long as each cylinder is runing the same-the readings will be identical. Not sure what you mean by lower readings or giving the impression of more power or performance. The dyno does not read impressions-it reads real numbers generated by the motor.

Richard..... the position of the O2 sensor is only on one exhaust pipe rather than at the join.

This will mean the o2 sensor will see lower readings and will run the engine rich......

Running rich may give the impression of more power/performance.

whoguy

11-18-2008, 08:39 PM

jkuchta

11-18-2008, 11:27 PM

So....will this be available in 304 SS, or just the mild steel?

eTiMaGo

11-19-2008, 12:26 AM

Thanks Richard.

I was thinking the same, that the Air/Fuel ratio should read the same regardless of position.

Sorry about me writing "Impression", I meant running rich WILL give more power/performance. That old resistor across the o2 sensor trick.

I'm with you now.

Running rich does not actually give you more power, it's a common misconception. You actually have to run very slightly lean for the best combustion, if I recall correctly. You want to run richer in a turbo application so that the extra fuel acts as a coolant to prevent detonation.

CASTREX

11-19-2008, 12:42 AM

Running rich does not actually give you more power, it's a common misconception. You actually have to run very slightly lean for the best combustion, if I recall correctly. You want to run richer in a turbo application so that the extra fuel acts as a coolant to prevent detonation.

Correct, rich (more fuel) does not mean more power. Is the other way around.

richardholdener

11-19-2008, 01:12 AM

people get confused when they read rich or lean ads power. Optimum power comes from an optimum air/fuel mixture. This is usually 13.2:1 in an NA application and richer on forced induction applications-though a turbo motor very well at 13.2:1 air/fuel-just not for very long.

harveyjai

11-19-2008, 03:05 AM

sorry to ask a dumb question...

but does that mean u can run this long header + bolt on muffler, no mid pipe?

AznGouki

11-19-2008, 06:32 AM

damn this is sweet. 550 for head and mid sounds pretty good. I am concerned about the mild steel though. Being in Canada, wouldn't rust be a greater issue for me? In terms of power gains, so far you look the best. How much louder is the vehicle with this set up? Any chance for a sound clip?

richardholdener

11-19-2008, 12:49 PM

It was real loud durign testing since we ran an open exhuast. Haven't run the system through a mid-pipe connected to axle back yet-we need to make sure there is sufficent interest before we make the production pieces. Sounded pretty cool at 6000 rpm!

damn this is sweet. 550 for head and mid sounds pretty good. I am concerned about the mild steel though. Being in Canada, wouldn't rust be a greater issue for me? In terms of power gains, so far you look the best. How much louder is the vehicle with this set up? Any chance for a sound clip?

anonymous user

11-19-2008, 01:25 PM

Interested, but like others, fundage is tight right now. I may be able to commit sometime after december. Maybe january?

Yoda

11-19-2008, 02:20 PM

does any1 one see that it is spit at the top. Never seen that on a header before. Was it a mistake or did it crack?

mikenacarato

11-19-2008, 02:24 PM

i believe its for flexability. when the metal flange heats up if theres not a split it can warp and/or crack. its good to have a joint in there to allow expansion.

richardholdener

11-19-2008, 02:35 PM

The split in the head flange was necessary to faciliate installation of the prototype. The header can't be installed if is is made as a full-length, 1-piece header. It will be a 2-piece design, but the production head flange will be 1 piece. The header will split mid-way down the primary tube-they will connect using a 4-bolt flange.

does any1 one see that it is spit at the top. Never seen that on a header before. Was it a mistake or did it crack?

richardholdener

11-19-2008, 02:36 PM

PS-This is why I don't like to provide photos of the prototypes since they don't represent what the production piece will be.

does any1 one see that it is spit at the top. Never seen that on a header before. Was it a mistake or did it crack?

thepaidtraveler

11-19-2008, 02:51 PM

Don't wory about posting prototypes Rich. Some people need to realize that this is what is considered a rough draft and not the final product.

It takes time to test and develope.

Yoda

11-19-2008, 03:10 PM

i had a question and you answered its no biggie. Better you show the prototype so we can see where your going if we are to invest in it. It makes me feel alot more comfortable in investing in a product form some1 i dont kno or has heard about(others might have but not me). I am not a fan of word of mouth from people establishing others credibility. And i kno its a rough draft. Just wanted to kno if its a part of the design or not and its purpose.

But again thank you for taking the time to R&D all these parts for our cars.

jkuchta

11-19-2008, 04:47 PM

So....will this system be available in 304 SS?

richardholdener

11-19-2008, 04:52 PM

We are checking on pricing bbut it will likely be aluminized or coated mild speel to keep cost reasonable. 304 SS might nearly double price.

So....will this system be available in 304 SS?

jkuchta

11-19-2008, 04:54 PM

Keep me posted....I'd pay extra for a 304 SS header that will last a while.

Thanks again for creating these parts for our car!

Treyz

11-19-2008, 05:40 PM

subscribed

AznGouki

11-19-2008, 10:52 PM

I'm definitely interested. It's rusting that really worries me.

NonStopTuning

11-20-2008, 06:42 PM

Another excellent thread. Great job Richard!!!

rob323

11-25-2008, 12:15 AM

Richard, is there any provision to allow for the twisting of the motor? Flex joints etc?

WolfWings

11-25-2008, 02:08 AM

I'm definitely interested. It's rusting that really worries me.

Honestly I'll pay the $1100 if it came in a good stainless steel instead of mild steel, but I live in the edges of the rust belt where the automated car washes are enclosed, heated, and get more business during winter from people grabbing the underbody wash than they do during the summer. :-)

jkuchta

11-25-2008, 02:20 AM

I want the stainless most because it can put up with the higher heat of trackdays a lot better.

WolfWings

11-25-2008, 04:04 AM

I want the stainless most because it can put up with the higher heat of trackdays a lot better.

That's flatly wrong. Both have a melting point north of 2500 degrees farenheight. Mild steel and 304 stainless steel both don't give a damn, most mild steels are in fact good up to 2700 degrees F, same as 304 stainless steel. High-carbon steel's are the ones that melt around 2000 degrees farenheight. Both also conduct heat almost identically, so there's no difference there either. Coat the mild steel version if you're concerned about heat-containment for track use.

Only reason to go with 304 SS on an exhaust is for rust prevention at exhaust temperatures or for cosmetic reasons. It may be possible to wrap and coat an exhaust to get the same rust prevention as 304 SS, but it's one of those "do you trust the coating to be water-tight and road-salt-proof, versus being able to rely on the underlying metal?" concerns.

ddongbap

11-25-2008, 04:49 AM

The oxygen sensor positon has no effect on the air/fuel ratio. You can run the sensor stuck in the end of the exhaust or in one individual tube, as long as each cylinder is runing the same-the readings will be identical. Not sure what you mean by lower readings or giving the impression of more power or performance. The dyno does not read impressions-it reads real numbers generated by the motor.

Unless you're missing fuel injectors in two of the cly. jk=]

WolfWings

11-25-2008, 05:21 AM

Unless you're missing fuel injectors in two of the cly. jk=]

Not how it works. Only diesel engines and direct-injection engines have individual fuel injectors 'in' each cylinder. Most have multiple injectors to equalize the air/fuel ratio across the cylinders, but even if you have a single fuel injector fail it should cause a global drop in overall fuel available, with a minor to major additional localized drop on the closest cylinders to the fuel injector that failed. The global drop should still be picked up regardless of which exhaust runner the sensor is in.

And then there's cars that only have SPFI (one injector for the whole engine) instead of MPFI, and even among MPFI there's sequential (one spurt per cylinder timed with the intake stroke to fine-tune the air/fuel ratio beyond just flattening it across all cylinders, what all super-modern engines like our Yaris use, admitedly maximized local effect from a single failed injector), simultaneous (timed spurts from all injectors at the same time, pure air/fuel levelling across all cylinders, least impact from a failed injector), and batched/hybrid that fires injectors more often than needed (more than once per stroke), but vaguely synced with the intake cycle, usually I've seen that only on engines that also have a waste-spark ignition system or V engines to simplify the ECU logic and use a wiring harness that just Y-forks to each bank for the injectors instead of running individual control circuits for each injector.

gboezio

11-25-2008, 06:49 AM

Actually Mild steel is a better material than 304 SS to handle the heat cycles, when 304 is heated the carbon combine with the chromium to form chomium carbide witch make the metal brittle.
304 is good for post headers exhaust systems since the temp is lower, I'd say to get the steel headers and coat the inside and outside, they will last long enough.

Or... make one out of 321 SS the alloy is stabilized with Titanium, it's hell expensive and rare like pope's crap, a costly option for an economical car IMO.

Just 0.02 $

jkuchta

11-25-2008, 11:46 PM

Gboezio and WolfWings....you're both about half right.

Stainless and Mild steel both have high melting points, but Stainless conducts heat far less than mild steel, making it much better for exhaust applications. Also, stainless is much less susptable to scaleing and errosion than mild steel, making it even more superior in this application.
As far as embrittlement...while it will happen, the reduced fatigue strength of 304 will still be higher than that of mild steel, making for a stronger header.

A good site to look at is : http://www.burnsstainless.com/TechArticles/Stainless_article/stainless_article.html

I understand this is a site for a company that makes exhaust products, but this is also one of the most respected names in the industry. Feel free to fact check.

I'm still in if the header is made in 304 SS.

RacerFreakXXX

11-26-2008, 01:46 AM

think it will sound like this?

tein yaris (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNNb3U3tRcs)

richardholdener

11-26-2008, 03:11 AM

We are doing testignon the ball/socket joint to see if there is enough flex for motor rotation, but if not there will have to be a flex joint. It looks like stainless constructionis important to some so we will investigate pricing for stainless.

Richard, is there any provision to allow for the twisting of the motor? Flex joints etc?

richardholdener

11-26-2008, 03:19 AM

Multiport fuel injection means there is one fuel injector per cylinder usually located in the head or intake port aimed directly at the back of the intake valve. The sequential or batch fire refers to whether the individual injector is fired or the enitire bank is fire for each cylinder. Sequential is prefered and is usually the choice at lower engine speeds where emissions are lowered, but many sequential systems revert to bacth at higher engine speeds. Regardelss, if you lose an injector in a multiport injection system, the individual cylinder will suffer-which will be registered by the oxygen sensor (usually located in the joined collector of exhaust manifold). Losing an injector can literally ruin a cylinder from detonation. The yaris has individual injectors for each cylinder-they do not spray in any other cylinder. Hope this clears things up.

Not how it works. Only diesel engines and direct-injection engines have individual fuel injectors 'in' each cylinder. Most have multiple injectors to equalize the air/fuel ratio across the cylinders, but even if you have a single fuel injector fail it should cause a global drop in overall fuel available, with a minor to major additional localized drop on the closest cylinders to the fuel injector that failed. The global drop should still be picked up regardless of which exhaust runner the sensor is in.

And then there's cars that only have SPFI (one injector for the whole engine) instead of MPFI, and even among MPFI there's sequential (one spurt per cylinder timed with the intake stroke to fine-tune the air/fuel ratio beyond just flattening it across all cylinders, what all super-modern engines like our Yaris use, admitedly maximized local effect from a single failed injector), simultaneous (timed spurts from all injectors at the same time, pure air/fuel levelling across all cylinders, least impact from a failed injector), and batched/hybrid that fires injectors more often than needed (more than once per stroke), but vaguely synced with the intake cycle, usually I've seen that only on engines that also have a waste-spark ignition system or V engines to simplify the ECU logic and use a wiring harness that just Y-forks to each bank for the injectors instead of running individual control circuits for each injector.

jkuchta

11-26-2008, 03:29 AM

Thanks a lot for looking into the stainless option for us Richard.

Also, ...about that split header flange.....

How are you bolting this thing onto the cylinder head? Are you not using the center bolt (i.e. only using 4 header bolts)?

WolfWings

11-26-2008, 04:04 AM

We are doing testignon the ball/socket joint to see if there is enough flex for motor rotation, but if not there will have to be a flex joint. It looks like stainless constructionis important to some so we will investigate pricing for stainless.

What the other guy said, thanks for looking into the stainless pricing, Richard! If it turns out overly prohibitive, mild will do, but thanks again for checking on the stainless for us. :headbang:

richardholdener

11-26-2008, 02:44 PM

The prototype header employed a split flange to facilitate installation, but production pieces will have a single flange like the stock ex man. The header will be two piece, but the connection will come down on the primary tubing. The header has to be a 2-piece design to allow for installation. On the prototype, we did use the center bolt but with a washer to secure both halves-it worked great.

Thanks a lot for looking into the stainless option for us Richard.

Also, ...about that split header flange.....

How are you bolting this thing onto the cylinder head? Are you not using the center bolt (i.e. only using 4 header bolts)?

gboezio

11-26-2008, 06:27 PM

Gboezio and WolfWings....you're both about half right.

Stainless and Mild steel both have high melting points, but Stainless conducts heat far less than mild steel, making it much better for exhaust applications. Also, stainless is much less susptable to scaleing and errosion than mild steel, making it even more superior in this application.
As far as embrittlement...while it will happen, the reduced fatigue strength of 304 will still be higher than that of mild steel, making for a stronger header.

My bad, I did not specify coated mild steel. I would not run an uncoated steel header.
Maybe 304 would work fine on non turbo application, someone's got to try :biggrin: