NST Pulley Dyno Results

[richardholdener]

Here are the official results of an honest back-to-back dyno test of the NST pulleys (crank, alt & WP). Car was run on the dyno with stock pulleys and then we swapped out the stock pulleys for the NST (I believe 10% under driven) though sizing on WP and Alt looked the same. Pulleys were definitely worth some power as indicated by grpah. Note also the power numbers (123 wheel hp) is a new NA record-posted elsewhere with description of mods.

[pinoypizzaboy]

i have 10% underdrive set. so your intake+ longtube header w/ matching midpipe+ pulleys = 123 whp?

[mikenacarato]

very nice!

[richardholdener]

Plus Xd Tb and CAI (though we used a stock filter lid flipped over).

i have 10% underdrive set. so your intake+ longtube header w/ matching midpipe+ pulleys = 123 whp?

[pinoypizzaboy]

Plus Xd Tb and CAI (though we used a stock filter lid flipped over).

wowoweewa almost the same gains as the blitz sc. i might be purchasing the whole richard holdener collection if the price is right. (longtube header, intake, midpipe,) will the midpipe bolt on to tanabe axleback?:thumbup: or better yet i remember you talking about a low buck turbo kit back then:smoking:

[WeSellCarParts]

Very nice to see a dyno. NST FTW! :)

[CASTREX]

Finally some back to back Dyno for the Pulleys!

This is probably one of the more popular mods for the Yaris. NST FTW!


Richard,

Correct me if I'm wrong but some of the benefits from the lightweight/under drive pulleys are not only the power gains (as show in your graph) but also the ability of spin the engine faster and therefore been able to get it faster into the power band?

Same principle as with a lightweight flywheel.

BTW, do you know that Fidanza has a lightweight Flywheel for the Yaris and for the xD. There is another option for the Yaris from SPEC. They run for around $300.
Have you considered throwing one of those into your combo? :biggrin:

Oh, and your observation is accurate the only under driven pulley is the Crank pulley. Is 10% smaller. The Alt and WP are same size as the OE.
NST has an underdrive pulley in the works for the xD as well.

[cali yaris]

way to go Richard, thanks for testing that!

question: would the gain the pulleys make be the same on a totally stock car, where the pulleys were the only mod?

[richardholdener]

This will get a little technical, but the gains from the under drive pulleys come not so much from the chnage in weight but from the change in accessory speed relative to crank speed. You are reducing the parasitic losses associated with driving the accessories. This is a function of the moment of inertia (MOI). Changes in MOI come from changes in weight and changes in diameter (of a rotating object). In the fomula for MOI, the changes in diameter are squared meaning they have much more of a change on MOI than changes in weight. Since you dealing with such a small gain from any change in MOI to begin with on a accessory pulley, the difference in weight has even less effect than a change in diameter (making a small crank pulley). This is why lightweight flywheels usually show little or no gain in power on a dynojet-they are not what is limiting the rate of acceleration of the engine (a change in tire/wheel diamter or weight will have much more of an effect on power than lightweight flywheel). Here is where things get tricky. Lightweight engine components do have an effect, it is just that they have more of an effect when the acceleration rate is increased (free reving the motor for instance) or when a drag race car (a real fast one) accelerates through the gears at a higher rate than can be achieved on a chassis dyno. What all this boils down to is that underd rive pulleys (meaning even larger alt and WP pulleys) will add power more than any change in weight and that a lightweight flywheel would add more power if you make it smaller in diameter, but you are not likely to register any gains with the flywheel on the dynojet. Hope this helps.

Finally some back to back Dyno for the Pulleys!

This is probably one of the more popular mods for the Yaris. NST FTW!


Richard,

Correct me if I'm wrong but some of the benefits from the lightweight/under drive pulleys are not only the power gains (as show in your graph) but also the ability of spin the engine faster and therefore been able to get it faster into the power band?

Same principle as with a lightweight flywheel.

BTW, do you know that Fidanza has a lightweight Flywheel for the Yaris and for the xD. There is another option for the Yaris from SPEC. They run for around $300.
Have you considered throwing one of those into your combo? :biggrin:

Oh, and your observation is accurate the only under driven pulley is the Crank pulley. Is 10% smaller. The Alt and WP are same size as the OE.
NST has an underdrive pulley in the works for the xD as well.

[richardholdener]

The gains from the pulleys should be the same with stock motor since reduction in losses from accessories is the same.

way to go Richard, thanks for testing that!

question: would the gain the pulleys make be the same on a totally stock car, where the pulleys were the only mod?

[ztrack157]

I'm banning myself from the site for 6 months or else I'll be broke.

[RagnaCaT]

What all this boils down to is that underd rive pulleys (meaning even larger alt and WP pulleys) will add power more than any change in weight

Hmmm? NST I hope your reading this we need BIGGER WP And ALT pulleys. If they came threw with the 10% reduction they could definetly come out with something like this!!! NST FTW! I'm glad I have a Yaris!

[pickledchang]

if you already have a 10% underdrive crank pulley, and then you install a 10% overdrive for your accessories, there may be adverse effects to running your accessories 20% slower. the miniscule hp gained probably wouldnt be worth dead batteries, dim headlights, overheating at idle, etc... NST may have already experimented with these.

[RagnaCaT]

But doesn't the overdrive compensate for whats lost with the 10% my corrolla did have an 18% reduction with 0 problems

[CASTREX]

if you already have a 10% underdrive crank pulley, and then you install a 10% overdrive for your accessories, there may be adverse effects to running your accessories 20% slower. the miniscule hp gained probably wouldnt be worth dead batteries, dim headlights, overheating at idle, etc... NST may have already experimented with these.

That's correct.

With the under drive Crank pulley you are already under driven the system by 10%. The reason why NST did minus 10% instead of a 15% or 20% is because there is no compromise at that level for the components... If you have a race car and you don't care about those little things like AC/ radio etc... you can probably for a larger reduction.

Remember this is a bolt on part for every day use. If anyone wants special pulleys remember that NST DOES custom works.

[CASTREX]

But doesn't the overdrive compensate for whats lost with the 10% my corrolla did have an 18% reduction with 0 problems

What over drive? For an over drive you will need a larger than OE crank pulley.

If you add a larger water pump and alternator pulley you are making those components run even slower!

[RagnaCaT]

What over drive? For an over drive you will need a larger than OE crank pulley.

If you add a larger water pump and alternator pulley you are making those components run even slower!

Ok I had a concept all wrong since day one thanks for clearing that up for me:thumbup:

[richardholdener]

We have experimneted with different under drive ratios and there definitely is a point where the water pump speed is too slow for when you are stuck in traffic and/or the electrical system willnot charge at lower engine speeds. I think the 10% crank from NST works well-my point was more one of theory and not recommendation. For an all-motor race application, we will get rid of belt and drive WP electrically-thereby eliminating all losses asociated with accessory drive. Not really practical for street use.

if you already have a 10% underdrive crank pulley, and then you install a 10% overdrive for your accessories, there may be adverse effects to running your accessories 20% slower. the miniscule hp gained probably wouldnt be worth dead batteries, dim headlights, overheating at idle, etc... NST may have already experimented with these.

[richardholdener]

Can someone let the guys from NST know they did a good job on the u-pulleys and they will be featured in my upcoming book on B-segment performance. It is always nice to test a product that works well.

[eTiMaGo]

Richard, we have a saying here that is quite appropriate... NST FTW :biggrin:

[CASTREX]

Can someone let the guys from NST know they did a good job on the u-pulleys and they will be featured in my upcoming book on B-segment performance. It is always nice to test a product that works well.

Mike from NST is on the forum quite often he sure will see this post and chime in.

You should check the other products offered by NSt for the Yaris. Their short shift kit is an inexpensive and yet amazing little mod. Just a little piece of aluminum that it takes 2 minutes to install and it manages to completly change the feel of the gears.

Oh, and they are currently working on a 10% under drive crank pulley for the xD as well.

[NonStopTuning]

Can someone let the guys from NST know they did a good job on the u-pulleys and they will be featured in my upcoming book on B-segment performance. It is always nice to test a product that works well.


Thank you sir!!! We certainly do appreciate it :biggrin:


As I have said from day one... the gains are there, they are noticeable, and they can be seen accross the entire RPM band. Our own testing has shown this time and time again, and now Richard's testing proves this as well.

Thanks again Mr. Holdener, feel free to look me up if we can be of any assistance for your future projects.

Stay tuned everyone :thumbsup::thumbsup:

[RagnaCaT]

Stay tuned everyone :thumbsup::thumbsup:

:bow:I love when they writes that phrase!:wub:

[NonStopTuning]

:bow:I love when they writes that phrase!:wub:


Stay tuned RagnaCat :burnrubber:

[CASTREX]

Stay tuned RagnaCat :burnrubber:

hey Mike,

Do you know that Richard also has a Scion xD and is doing extensive research and testing on that platform...?

I'm sure he will also love a pulley set for that car... ! :bellyroll:

You know I will....!:wink:

J/K not really. :biggrin:

But on a serious note... any updates on the pulleys for the 1.8?

[richardholdener]

I will be taking the Xd to the track here in Vegas, but a test and tune day won't be available until early jan. I woudl like to have a U-pulley for the Xd by then if possible to help get us over the 150 hp mark (I think long-tube will get uys there but it would be nice to have U-pulley as well (maybe 155 wheel hp)-we then add the nitrous.

hey Mike,

Do you know that Richard also has a Scion xD and is doing extensive research and testing on that platform...?

I'm sure he will also love a pulley set for that car... ! :bellyroll:

You know I will....!:wink:

J/K not really. :biggrin:

But on a serious note... any updates on the pulleys for the 1.8?

[CASTREX]

I will be taking the Xd to the track here in Vegas, but a test and tune day won't be available until early jan. I woudl like to have a U-pulley for the Xd by then if possible to help get us over the 150 hp mark (I think long-tube will get uys there but it would be nice to have U-pulley as well (maybe 155 wheel hp)-we then add the nitrous.

Can't wait to hear from your track experience! I know this engine has a lot of potential... it sure is a little sleeper... :biggrin:


Tonight I went to our local "test facility" for a couple of runs with a friend that has been asking for some comparison testing with my car.:wink:

He has a 2002 Corolla TS. You don't have that car in the States. Is basically a corolla hatchback with a 1.8L 2ZZ-GE (japan version of the engine on the celica GTS) with 193 hp at the crank, 6 speed and a red line at 8250rpm

Long story short. Two passes. Yaris won by 2 cars in both passes...:thumbup:
By the time the corolla hit the lift @ 6700rpm the Yaris was gone:evil:

Next week I have an appointment with an Integra GSR:biggrin: We will see how the Yaris represents then...

[NonStopTuning]

But on a serious note... any updates on the pulleys for the 1.8?



YES :biggrin:

[at3GG]

Richard,
is there a time frame of when we can expect this B segment book to be out? I jts flipped through one of yours at the library the other day "How to build Honda horsepower" it was very well done IMO

[richardholdener]

The B-segment book will follow the same format-I just finished another B-series Honda book it wll be out before the B-segment book. I will be looking for some data from a few formum members to include in the book. I'll post what info I will need shortly.

Richard,
is there a time frame of when we can expect this B segment book to be out? I jts flipped through one of yours at the library the other day "How to build Honda horsepower" it was very well done IMO

[richardholdener]

I had an experience with a Civic on the way home from cali-Here rolled up on the freeway with a very loud exhaust but not mch else. We did a few races from 65 mph to 90 mph late night on the freeway and he lost badly to the stock Scion Xd-it said Ex on th back must sure didn't run very hard. Let us know what happens with the GSR

Can't wait to hear from your track experience! I know this engine has a lot of potential... it sure is a little sleeper... :biggrin:


Tonight I went to our local "test facility" for a couple of runs with a friend that has been asking for some comparison testing with my car.:wink:

He has a 2002 Corolla TS. You don't have that car in the States. Is basically a corolla hatchback with a 1.8L 2ZZ-GE (japan version of the engine on the celica GTS) with 193 hp at the crank, 6 speed and a red line at 8250rpm

Long story short. Two passes. Yaris won by 2 cars in both passes...:thumbup:
By the time the corolla hit the lift @ 6700rpm the Yaris was gone:evil:

Next week I have an appointment with an Integra GSR:biggrin: We will see how the Yaris represents then...

[LtNoogie]

Richard,

Normally, such public exhibitions of speed would be frowned upon but when it's done in the name of "technical research", we're all ears.:biggrin:

[pinoypizzaboy]

Can't wait to hear from your track experience! I know this engine has a lot of potential... it sure is a little sleeper... :biggrin:


Tonight I went to our local "test facility" for a couple of runs with a friend that has been asking for some comparison testing with my car.:wink:

He has a 2002 Corolla TS. You don't have that car in the States. Is basically a corolla hatchback with a 1.8L 2ZZ-GE (japan version of the engine on the celica GTS) with 193 hp at the crank, 6 speed and a red line at 8250rpm

Long story short. Two passes. Yaris won by 2 cars in both passes...:thumbup:
By the time the corolla hit the lift @ 6700rpm the Yaris was gone:evil:

Next week I have an appointment with an Integra GSR:biggrin: We will see how the Yaris represents then...
don't let that VTEC kick in yo!
man i wish i can take out GSRs with my 1.5 yaris that will be the day :thumbsup:

[thebarber]

richard, any chance you have a dyno sheet for the pulley (shown in post #1) showing the torque curve as well?

[NonStopTuning]

richard, any chance you have a dyno sheet for the pulley (shown in post #1) showing the torque curve as well?

Due to the weight reduction and underdriving, the torque curve will show similar gains at all RPM :smile:

[thebarber]

Due to the weight reduction and underdriving, the torque curve will show similar gains at all RPM :smile:

well, lightweight pulleys wont show anything on a dyno vs rpms....but im still curious to see the tq curve w/ the underdrive pulley...

[NonStopTuning]

Like I said... Due to the weight reduction and underdriving, the torque curve will show similar gains at all RPM :smile:

[4MPG]

What was the stock WHP of this car? Is this on stock tune? How was MPG effected?

[thebarber]

Like I said... Due to the weight reduction and underdriving, the torque curve will show similar gains at all RPM :smile:
lol, you're no fun. i just was wondering if richard could conger up a dyno showing it...i realize itd pretty much do to the tq curve what it did to the hp curve....3hp everywhere

What was the stock WHP of this car? Is this on stock tune? How was MPG effected?
check of of richards other threads (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/search.php?searchid=324101) to find the answers...

but he's running intake, xD throttle body, a new prototype intake manifold, long tube header, and custom exhaust to get the 120 and 123 with the underdrive pulley (and yes, nst, the water and alternator pulleys too)

id imagine mileage with JUST the underdrive pulley (and/or other pulleys) would increase (which is to say: it would use less gas) as long as other items remain the same (including how you drive)

[ddongbap]

He has a 2002 Corolla TS. You don't have that car in the States. Is basically a corolla hatchback with a 1.8L 2ZZ-GE (japan version of the engine on the celica GTS) with 193 hp at the crank, 6 speed and a red line at 8250rpm


We have the XRS tho.

[thebarber]

Can't wait to hear from your track experience! I know this engine has a lot of potential... it sure is a little sleeper... :biggrin:


Tonight I went to our local "test facility" for a couple of runs with a friend that has been asking for some comparison testing with my car.:wink:

He has a 2002 Corolla TS. You don't have that car in the States. Is basically a corolla hatchback with a 1.8L 2ZZ-GE (japan version of the engine on the celica GTS) with 193 hp at the crank, 6 speed and a red line at 8250rpm

Long story short. Two passes. Yaris won by 2 cars in both passes...:thumbup:
By the time the corolla hit the lift @ 6700rpm the Yaris was gone:evil:

Next week I have an appointment with an Integra GSR:biggrin: We will see how the Yaris represents then...

were you running the quarter mile? where did you let off? did either of you launch your cars?

[CASTREX]

were you running the quarter mile? where did you let off? did either of you launch your cars?

Yeap 1/4 mile.

Both times we leave from a stop. So theres a weight advantage there for the Yaris.

Another day we did another try out rolling. Leaving at around 40mph and the Corolla got me there. 1.5 cars ahead of me.

The corolla TS only mod was an K&N Intake. I had a Fujita Intake + cat back

I haven't been to a dyno but I estimate my power to be around 120 whp. Oh my Yaris is heavier than the US spec Yaris. It's 2450lbs. I was running with out back seats so let's say 100lbs less

[Rafterman]

hmmm...can you show me the torque results ? :smile:

[CASTREX]

hmmm...can you show me the torque results ? :smile:

Hey are you going to jump in on the NST Group buy or what? There is only 1 more day and we need 3 more people!

I bet the gains on the 1.8L Yaris are going to be larger than the ones showed here for the 1.5L since our pulley is heavier and larger.
If we don't make this Group buy happen now... who knows when NST will end up making these...!

This is like the best bang for the buck!! only$99 initial group buy price!!!

Woudn't you like to kick some Corolla TS asses?

[Rafterman]

i will buy the pulley in january...then it costs 119 dollar but...wayne :biggrin:

[richardholdener]

Here is the graph again with torque added. Since HP & TQ are mathematically related, any time there is a change in HP there has to be a coresponding change in torque. Below 5252 rpm, a change in hp will result in a greater change in tq (the lower the rpm-the greater the difference). Above 5252 rpm, a change in hp with result in a smaller change in Tq. BTW-A dyno vs rpm will show gains offered by u-pulleys-here is a perfect example. Also, gains from u-pulleys typically increase with engine speed. Hope this helps.

lol, you're no fun. i just was wondering if richard could conger up a dyno showing it...i realize itd pretty much do to the tq curve what it did to the hp curve....3hp everywhere


check of of richards other threads (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/search.php?searchid=324101) to find the answers...

but he's running intake, xD throttle body, a new prototype intake manifold, long tube header, and custom exhaust to get the 120 and 123 with the underdrive pulley (and yes, nst, the water and alternator pulleys too)

id imagine mileage with JUST the underdrive pulley (and/or other pulleys) would increase (which is to say: it would use less gas) as long as other items remain the same (including how you drive)

[CASTREX]

Nice!!!

[thebarber]

thanks richard...i figured itd look like that since hp = (tq*rpm)5252...but its just nice to see it in real life (i was also hoping the dyno place you went to kept your info and could print off whatever you want)

OH OH OH! i found the dyno of my xrs vs another guys xrs who had the same mods (cai/catback) but i had a fidanza flywheel.....no difference in whp, obviously, but i have a dyno vs time....no whp for light components, but it made a world of difference in how the car wound up...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b339/dabarber/dynos/dyno-barberandevilvstime.jpg

[richardholdener]

Lucky for me, I have access to all my dyno results since I have my own Dynojet. This allows me to do some serious dyno testing and find answers to all kinds of unimportant (except to me) questions. In our testing, we have yet to see any gains offered by light-weight flywheels on the chassis dyno, but the difference is noticeable behind the wheel. This does not necessarily translate into faster acceleration times or more power, but it does improve engine response (something very evident when mathing revs while performing a downshift on a road-race course).

thanks richard...i figured itd look like that since hp = (tq*rpm)5252...but its just nice to see it in real life (i was also hoping the dyno place you went to kept your info and could print off whatever you want)

OH OH OH! i found the dyno of my xrs vs another guys xrs who had the same mods (cai/catback) but i had a fidanza flywheel.....no difference in whp, obviously, but i have a dyno vs time....no whp for light components, but it made a world of difference in how the car wound up...

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b339/dabarber/dynos/dyno-barberandevilvstime.jpg

[justjesus]

What was the stock WHP of this car? Is this on stock tune? How was MPG effected?

I'll get back to you on MPG. Once I do a bit more driving, I'll do a little write-up of overall driving impressions and MPG.

[YarisPR]

Lucky for me, I have access to all my dyno results since I have my own Dynojet. This allows me to do some serious dyno testing and find answers to all kinds of unimportant (except to me) questions. In our testing, we have yet to see any gains offered by light-weight flywheels on the chassis dyno, but the difference is noticeable behind the wheel. This does not necessarily translate into faster acceleration times or more power, but it does improve engine response (something very evident when mathing revs while performing a downshift on a road-race course).

Is the Xd Throttle the same as the ones in the Corollas(2005-2007)???
I'am really curious cause I found one today (didn't buy it) and if it fits I' am getting it.

[richardholdener]

As indicated in PM-not sure-never seen a Corolla in person.

Is the Xd Throttle the same as the ones in the Corollas(2005-2007)???
I'am really curious cause I found one today (didn't buy it) and if it fits I' am getting it.