Gauging Interest: Whiteline Front/Back Adjustable Sway Bars

[RaptorRacing]

Hey Folks;
I hope I'm not breaking any forum rules here; many months ago (pre-hack) I got the OK from YarisBueller to post this king of thread. I fully intend to become a vendor if this works out and even if it doesn't I intend to; have just been going nuts with other projects.

Enough about that, in the past I saw a hole in the adjustable sway bar market for 2nd and 3rd generation Supra's so I organized a test vehicle and a group buy to get them done. This was done back in 2006 and the response is insane, people love them and don't know how they've gone without them for so long. I've been dying to do this for the Yaris but the engineers at Whiteline have had a busy year so couldn't guarantee me a time frame.

I was contacted last week and they're very interested in this if there is a market for it. In order to make it work I'll need to place an order for 15 bars each (front and back). The have a couple Yarii available to them for the prototype so that saves me a step.

As far as I can see nobody else has adjustable sway bars done for the Yaris done yet, if I'm wrong please let me know. For those that haven't used/heard of adjustable sway bars here is some 'mild' theory on them:

THEORY
Unlike fixed factory and aftermarket sway bars, adjustable sway bars are one of the few was to actually tune over/under steer on any car 'on the fly'. We know that increasing the strength of the rear bar will 'reduce' traction on the rear tires which will make the car over steer. We also know that increasing the strength of the front bar will 'reduce' traction on the front tires which will make the car under steer.

With that understood one could easily conclude that decreasing the strength of the rear bar reduces over steer and doing the same to the front reduces under steer.

Increasing the strength of both the front and rear bars will theoretically reduce traction on all 4 tires enabling the car to drift more easily (not something you want on a street car but figured it was worth mentioning).

Adjustable sway bars let you test and tune the best balance for your car, something that's just not possible with non-adjustables as you're stuck with what the company thought is best.

PRICING & other SPECIFICS

Pricing will be roughly $185usd/bar. I have accounts with Whiteline Distributors in Australia and in between the North American Distributor and the Australia Distributor can virtually ship them anywhere in the world.

On a special note to Canadians: all my Canadian customers parts ship from Canada...no unknown duty/brokerage/shipping fee's. I import them through US/Canadian customs by myself to eliminate the brokerage fee.

As mentioned we'll need 15 to get this going and for now unless I see interest this will only be attempted with the 1.5L 1NZ-FE. Rear bars will be the same but there might be some differences need so without having the engineers look at the cars I can't say for now we can get this done for the 1.3L 2NZ-FE.

I'm going to put this up as a vote, please keep in mind that if this is going to go forward it takes a minimum of 3 month from go ahead to delivery time to get this done. I would require deposits simply because I wouldn't want to be stuck with 15 sets of bars if everyone changes their minds :biggrin:.

If you have any questions or concerns please let me know, I can appreciate coming from someone with 1 post this might look 'scary' so please feel free to check feedback on the other forums I sponsor. I just haven't' had all the time to come back to this forum ever since the hack.:

www.celicasupra.com
www.supramania.com
www.supraquebec.com
www.celica-gts.com
www.torontosupraclub.com
www.toyotacressida.net
www.toyotanation.com - don’t' sponsor them anymore but I did a few large Whiteline/Superpro group buys through them.

Thanks in advance for your time YW, hope we can get this done as personally I think it's an amazing product.

[blacksandiegovitz]

I would buy a set of front/rear sway bars, whiteline is the shit ! Most people just haven't heard about them cause its hard to get there products in the states .

[RaptorRacing]

Most people just haven't heard about them cause its hard to get there products in the states .

That's what most people think but they're just dealing with the wrong vendor. You need to deal with vendors that specialize in the vehicle you need parts for. I'm usually FULLY stocked with adjustable swaybars for 2nd and 3rd gen Supra's so the wait is very minimal. I hope I can do the same for the Yaris, you hit the nail on the head: Whiteline makes some badass products and I personally feel the Yaris is in bad need of adjustable bars. Thanks for chiming in.

[jkuchta]

How would the rear bar be adjustable? I understand the idea behind changing the length of the leverarm of the bar by moving the endlinks towards or away from the end of the leverarm. My question is asked because the rear bar is not mounted to the car's chassis in the middle, but is instead mounted only at the ends, and acts more or less as a beam stiffener, not as a traditional swaybar.

[yarisugi]

I didn't understand the last polling option... What is a fitment bar?

[mikenacarato]

i had an adjustable rear swaybar from whiteline on my s40...awesome bar!

[1NZYaris1]

As mentioned we'll need 15 to get this going and for now unless I see interest this will only be attempted with the 1.5L 1NZ-FE. Rear bars will be the same but there might be some differences need so without having the engineers look at the cars I can't say for now we can get this done for the 1.3L 2NZ-FE.

Just to help you out with some useful info, the 1.3 has the same set up
on the arse end as the 1.5
My 1.3 yaris has a TRD sway bar made in the USA , for the 1.5.
Hope this helps you out ,and keep us enformed .

[RaptorRacing]

How would the rear bar be adjustable? I understand the idea behind changing the length of the leverarm of the bar by moving the endlinks towards or away from the end of the leverarm. My question is asked because the rear bar is not mounted to the car's chassis in the middle, but is instead mounted only at the ends, and acts more or less as a beam stiffener, not as a traditional swaybar.

I'll have a chat with the engineer's there and see what they say
I didn't understand the last polling option... What is a fitment bar?

Simply means a bar that fits the 2NZ-FE...but seeing I received the response below that option can now be removed.

As mentioned we'll need 15 to get this going and for now unless I see interest this will only be attempted with the 1.5L 1NZ-FE. Rear bars will be the same but there might be some differences need so without having the engineers look at the cars I can't say for now we can get this done for the 1.3L 2NZ-FE.

Just to help you out with some useful info, the 1.3 has the same set up
on the arse end as the 1.5
My 1.3 yaris has a TRD sway bar made in the USA , for the 1.5.
Hope this helps you out ,and keep us enformed .

Thanks so much for this info, I wasn't sure of this as there are many platforms that have different bars depending on the motor.

[jkuchta]

Thanks Raptor...looking forward to hearing back!

[anonymous user]

Don't get me wrong, i love whiteline! Quality, strength for tracking cars!
But after i switched out to cusco on one of my subies, i don't know if it would go on another of my car's again. They are strong b/c they are heavy, and the front on my legacy gt caused my steering pump failure. If there were no other adjustable options, then you can bet that I'd be a 4x (4 car) repeat customer.

People who haven't heard of whiteline, they are GREAT Quality, and i've never heard of someone breaking an endlink, mount, or a swaybar.

[YarisSedan]

Don't get me wrong, i love whiteline! Quality, strength for tracking cars!
But after i switched out to cusco on one of my subies, i don't know if it would go on another of my car's again. They are strong b/c they are heavy, and the front on my legacy gt caused my steering pump failure. If there were no other adjustable options, then you can bet that I'd be a 4x (4 car) repeat customer.

People who haven't heard of whiteline, they are GREAT Quality, and i've never heard of someone breaking an endlink, mount, or a swaybar.

I had a cusco front and rear on my 240sx. Was taking a extremly sharp turn one day and it ripped the bolt strait out of the frame. Had to have a hole cut in to the frame and a bolt and nut installed to put the control arm back in place. I think it was due to the heavy duty thick bar =). My car never handled the same after that.

[cali yaris]

+1 to jkuchta's question. I'm not sure how they would make the rear bar adjustable, as it's not technically a "sway bar".

Also in terms of stiffness, what range will the stiffness be? For example, compared to the 22mm rear TRD sway bar.

[Loren]

Generally speaking, you don't need both front AND rear bars to be adjustable. Gross suspension tuning should be done with spring rate. Swaybars are for fine-tuning the balance of the car, and having that adjustment at EITHER end is sufficient.

Of course... 99% of the people who buy such a thing for a Yaris are just doing it so that they can say that they did... so having both front and rear adjustable is "twice as good" in that regard.

It would be possible to mount a more traditional rear swaybar to the Yaris. The Sentra rear suspension is nearly the same, and we installed a bar on my buddy's SE-R a couple years ago. (It was even a Whiteline kit) That would be the only way to make it adjustable. The design that TRD uses is completely non-adjustable.

Best bet: TRD in the rear (or same design, but even stiffer), and a nearly stock stiffness front bar made adjustable.

[cali yaris]

Loren, the TRD rear is 22mm, I think. What would be your preferred thickness for a rear sway bar? 24mm or more?

(This information exchange should be useful for Whiteline, so don't call me on a hijack just yet :smile: )

[Loren]

I thought the TRD was 19mm, but I could be wrong... probably never measured it.

For what it is, the TRD is fine. You don't want to get on the bleeding edge of oversteer without having some means to easily adjust for it. So, if you went say 1-2mm larger on the rear bar... as long as you could balance it with an adjustable front bar, you'd be fine.

So, if I had an unlimited development budget, I'd probably do something like a 2mm larger than TRD rear bar, and a front bar that is adjustable. Make the adjustment range from stock stiffness and up. This could easily be done with the same diameter bar (or even a modified stock bar) by adding adjustment holes in the end of the bar. Shortening the lever arm of the bar makes it effectively stiffer.

Of course, this isn't the "on the fly" adjustment that the OP implied (whether it's what he really meant or not). A cockpit adjustable bar typically uses a trick "blade" adjuster on the end of the swaybar arm... very cool. Very expensive. You won't get that kind of thing for the $185 he's talking about. Multiply by 4 and start there.

[MUSKOKA800]

I'd be interested in an adjustable front. Mines already fitted with the TRD rear bar.

[cali yaris]

This could easily be done with the same diameter bar (or even a modified stock bar) by adding adjustment holes in the end of the bar. Shortening the lever arm of the bar makes it effectively stiffer.

This is exactly how it's done on the Hotchkis bars for the tC.

[whooppee777]

cali have u put on your front sway bar yet?

[Loren]

Don't forget the fundamental truth: a stiffer front bar increases understeer.

No need for a front bar that can be adjusted stiffer unless you have an overly stiff rear bar and want to fine-tune the balance with the front.

[RaptorRacing]

Folks,

sorry for the lack of responding, just been tied up with some other work. Will probably have more info on monday as I'm waiting for my US Sales rep to get back to the office on Monday and get me the email address/phone number of the engineer that will be working with me on this.

TIA for your patience!!

[RaptorRacing]

Folks;

sorry about the delay...I've been tied up for the last few weeks. Whiteline already has a non adjustable bar for the rear of the Yaris so I got them to take a picture of how they are mounting it.

To make this adjustable we would convert the ends to a vertical blade, and the link would be a pin top and eyelit lower.

Here are the pix:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/raptorracing/Yaris/tr86_6a.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v346/raptorracing/Yaris/tr86_1.jpg

Please let me know if you have any other questions.

[YarisSedan]

OOooooh me want.

[Loren]

That's much less elegant than the TRD design. It's also exactly the same setup we put on my friend's Sentra. Not pretty, but effective.

[RaptorRacing]

Does anyone have a picture of the TRD Bar on their car??

[cali yaris]

cali have u put on your front sway bar yet?

No, I won't do that until I'm at the track and have too much oversteer, which I rather doubt is going to happen. Not selling it either, though.

Good job Raptor -- looks good and functional so far.

[YarisSedan]

Wouldnt this be more effective than the trd swaybar. It looks like it allows for the torsion bar to twist more. As opposed to the trd one that just stiffins it up more. Or perhaps they could be used together? Or would that be overkill

[Loren]

The whole point of either the TRD or the Whiteline design IS to make the rear torsion bar resist flex more. If they both use the same bar diameter, then they're going to both give similar results. They're about the same shape with about the same leverage points. The TRD bar may actually react quicker because it's not mounted in rubber (poly, whatever) bushings.

Here's a tip for you guys: Don't buy parts just for the sake of buying them. Buy parts to solve problems. The Yaris is a FWD car, like most FWD cars, it has the tendency to understeer and/or spin the inside front wheel when you try to accelerate through a turn. This is the problem you're trying to address with a rear bar. If you go too far with that, then you end up with a car that goes tail out in a turn, which is NOT something you want on a street car.

The TRD bar does a pretty good job of mitigating much of the understeer in a Yaris. While you probably COULD install both the TRD and the Whiteline bars at the same time, yes, it would be severe overkill. The car wouldn't understeer... but it would be dangerously tail-happy.

If anyone feels they need more rear bar than a TRD bar, they'd do better to duplicate that design with a slightly fatter bar (like 1-2mm larger diameter). Personally, I just opted for stiffer rear springs. It was a lot easier to do.

[largeorangefont]

The TRD is a better design, and if bar size is equal will be more effective. The arms of the bar are longer as well, essentially making the bar softer. With sticky tires and stiff springs I could easily see the endlink mounts getting bent. Plus they are mounted via a single bolt.

Like Loren said, if you need more rotation than the TRD bar, a better bet is stiffer rear springs.

[RaptorRacing]

FYI...for those subscribed to this thread the bars are done...http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=346366&posted=1#post346366

[spookz]

I got one of these Whiteline adjustable rear sway bars installed yesterday. The car handles much better. It feels more planted on the ground when going around corners. I currently have it on the softer setting..

In my little sister's own words: "The car feels like it's stuck to the ground".

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l252/EVAQ8/DSC03874_800x450.jpg
Installed.

The design is quite ugly, but it does the job! It's the cheapest rear sway bar available (to people Down Under), and being adjustable is also a bonus! :P

[cali yaris]

It's the cheapest rear sway bar available (to people Down Under)

How much was it, including shipping?

[spookz]

I didn't need to pay for shipping, I picked it up directly from Whiteline. It was AU$285. The Ultra-Racing goes for 339 down here directly from Ultra-Racing Australia..

[RaptorRacing]

I've had mine on since about August and absolutely LOVE it.

For those who voted and seemed serious I'd love to know how come you decided not to purchase. BELIEVE me when I say the only reason I want to know is to perhaps improve how I market things in the future. The bars are already paid for and if I'm stuck with them forever I'm not going to lose sleep over it.

Ideally I should have collected deposits before venturing into this market but the feedback seemed good so decided to just dive in. I did this with Whiteline and new part numbers for Supra's but I was confident they would sell and they have...BIG time.

I'm pretty new to the Yaris scene; I wish I was able to do more but Supra projects have been killing me lately :redface:

[Loren]

For better marketing: A good website with quality photos of the product both loose and installed and thorough details. A lot of people won't take you seriously from just forum posts, a website makes you seem more legit. Plus you're likely to reach a larger market with a properly optimized website.

Regarding the product itself, I'd consider making it 3-position adjustable... for the cost of drilling two additional holes, it makes your product more versatile.

Another thing I'd suggest, maybe as an option, as it will add some cost and will probably introduce a little bit of "rattle and clunk" that a lot of people wouldn't like, would be a special end link option that would wrap around both sides of the bar for "double-shear" mounting and use a quick-release pin to secure it. This allows the bar to be adjustable on-the-fly easily about as quickly as making a shock adjustment, which would be awesome!

[RaptorRacing]

For better marketing: A good website with quality photos of the product both loose and installed and thorough details. A lot of people won't take you seriously from just forum posts, a website makes you seem more legit. Plus you're likely to reach a larger market with a properly optimized website.

Regarding the product itself, I'd consider making it 3-position adjustable... for the cost of drilling two additional holes, it makes your product more versatile.

Another thing I'd suggest, maybe as an option, as it will add some cost and will probably introduce a little bit of "rattle and clunk" that a lot of people wouldn't like, would be a special end link option that would wrap around both sides of the bar for "double-shear" mounting and use a quick-release pin to secure it. This allows the bar to be adjustable on-the-fly easily about as quickly as making a shock adjustment, which would be awesome!

I 100% with you on the website thing...NOT disputing that what so ever and not here to make excuses and the lack of a site. My main concern was with the number of people who voted knowing I didn't have a web site. I usually assume 75% of people that vote will not purchase the product they are voting on due to: change of heart; lack of funds and the reason you are mentioning (lack of site/confidence in the seller). I've been in business for 5 years and have never seen a 100% drop out rate :biggrin: I'm just talking out loud here as ideally this was a project I should have left on the back burner till I had the time jump into a different market.

As for the other suggestions; while they are great its just not feasible right now to change anything. I'll have to see how things go after the site goes up and I add these to it. The good thing is Whiteline is ALWAYS open to suggestion and willing to make any changes but they won't take the time to make the changes if someone doesn't step up and order a minimum quantity to justify the work.

I appreciate your time and input....cheers.

[spookz]

Yeah, the sway bar is awesome! The difference is great with stock shocks and NF drop springs. I can only imagine that the difference will be even greater with some better (stiffer) shocks.