Bush dodges a shoe attack!!

[junorico24]

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VFX-dKpcDz8

missed!! :thumbdown: old man got quick reflexes. :drinking:

[GeneW]

Apparently the guy who tossed the shoes is a hero in some parts of the Arab world. Tossing shoes at someone is a grave insult over there. Means that you're less than the dirt under someone's feet.

He supposed had the crap beaten out of him by police and faces seven years in the jug for "attacking a visiting head of state". I think that's way too over done as a punishment. He ought to get credit for the beating and be sent on his way. It's not like the guy produced a firearm and started blasting or some other violent attack.

Most Americans probably did not care too much or did not understand the significance of it. I have read online that quite a few Arabs were curious about the "opinion of Americans".

This American was amused by the whole thing. The man did not toss shoes at me personally. I do wish that the US would formulate an exit strategy from Iraq and act upon it with dispatch. We really need to get out of the nation building business, it's destroying what we are and could be.

Gene

[ChinoCharles]

I thought it was funny, but as an American there is a little voice in the back of my head that says the death penalty is too kind for someone that throws a peanut at my president, regardless of how much he pisses me off.

I say burn that guy at the stake, but thank him for a good laugh first.

[eTiMaGo]

cue austin powers..

"ow! who throws a shoe?"

[ddongbap]

Dude, that Bush, hes got some crazy reflexes.

[kimona]

Apparently the guy who tossed the shoes is a hero in some parts of the Arab world. Tossing shoes at someone is a grave insult over there. Means that you're less than the dirt under someone's feet.


Gene

Well... if the shoe fits...

[ZING]

I read that some guy is offering 10mil for the shoes that were thrown.

[bobselectric]

Whatever your politics- the man "attacked" the President of the United States. Nobody respects this man, please respect the office. What if in 3 and 3/4 years this happens to Obama?

The shoe-icide bomber should be put in jail

[ZING]

^^ But not for 7 years.

[bobselectric]

^^ But not for 7 years.

Whatever-

Tell me this then...

1 Under Hussein the "news" was distributed by Baghdad Bob and other Information Ministers, to propaganda rags. Would this guy even have a job?

2 He was covering a press conference held under a shiite- led coalition government, which has members of different sects and ethnic backgrounds. Considering Hussein was a sunni, and ruled with an iron fist, fat chance this would have happened.

3 Under Hussein, this man would have been "tried", convicted and executed, along with his entire family and village, just to set an example.

No instead we have a man who was given the opportunity to live his life as free as possible in a fledgling democracy, and he goes out and attacks the man and the nation which gave him that freedom. Maybe we should pull out... and maybe they'll be more grateful to the Iranians once that invasion starts

[YamilR]

^^ But not for 7 years.

Not 7 years?? Are you insane? That ain't shit. Are we talking about the same culture that will cut your hand for steeling or the same culture that will stone you to death for the simplest things? Sure, not 7 years. Crucify the fucker


PS. that's my personal opinion and don't care if you like it

[DFA]

George Bush is a prime example of how much harm one man can do not only to a country, but to the entire world.

Sue me, hate me, ban me, whatever. He deserves much more than just a shoe thrown his way.

[mo_feezy]

I was honestly surprised that Bush was able to duck both shoes. Especially with the reports that he's been hitting the bottle pretty hard recently. In fact, Bush supposedly cut his face by falling off the couch drunk. This is the same man who CHOKED ON A PRETZEL AND GAVE HIMSELF A BLACK EYE. He is more of a danger to himself than anyone else is. Especially a shoe thrower.

3 Under Hussein, this man would have been "tried", convicted and executed, along with his entire family and village, just to set an example.

No instead we have a man who was given the opportunity to live his life as free as possible in a fledgling democracy, and he goes out and attacks the man and the nation which gave him that freedom. Maybe we should pull out... and maybe they'll be more grateful to the Iranians once that invasion starts

In case you've ignored the details. This mans family was killed during this war. So as far as he is concerned, I'm sure Bush is worse than Hussein in that regard. I don't think this really matters.

[bobselectric]

I was honestly surprised that Bush was able to duck both shoes. Especially with the reports that he's been hitting the bottle pretty hard recently. In fact, Bush supposedly cut his face by falling off the couch drunk. This is the same man who CHOKED ON A PRETZEL AND GAVE HIMSELF A BLACK EYE. He is more of a danger to himself than anyone else is. Especially a shoe thrower.



In case you've ignored the details. This mans family was killed during this war. So as far as he is concerned, I'm sure Bush is worse than Hussein in that regard. I don't think this really matters.

No I didn't ignore the details, I just stopped reading when I got to the poor Iraqi part. As I said if you don't respect the man, respect the office. I don't care if you didn't vote for him, disrespecting the President of the US is like wiping your ass with the Flag.

Oh and Panama boy, your country wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the US. You would still be some Colombians slave if we didn't recognize the "revolution" when we wanted to build the canal

[PetersRedYaris]

I admit I was super impressed with Bush's cat-like reflexes. :bow: That would have been a direct face hit...

[BailOut]

No instead we have a man who was given the opportunity to live his life as free as possible in a fledgling democracy, and he goes out and attacks the man and the nation which gave him that freedom.

One of the tenets of democracy is the freedom of speech. By throwing his shoes he was basically just flipping off Bush... expressing his opinion in an overt way that is familiar to him.

I would also like to point out that the Iraqi people never asked for our version of freedom, and every poll that has been done from the time of our invasion and throughout our occupation has shown that the Iraqis feel their life was better under Saddam. Much of the country still has spotty or entirely missing basic services (which they had in fairly good order under Saddam), and the Sunni/Shiite issue that Saddam kept under control via tyranny has now fomented and spilled out into the streets. Not a week goes by without some terroristic act between those two factions occurring.

Arm them one decade and invade them the next... no wonder no one trusts us, and no wonder at least one Iraqi found it prudent to let our President know that he is not happy with him.

[mo_feezy]

As I said if you don't respect the man, respect the office. I don't care if you didn't vote for him, disrespecting the President of the US is like wiping your ass with the Flag.
That might be true, but I didn't throw a shoe at the president. An Iraqi man did. I don't think that he has the same duty to respect the President of the U.S. He probably doesn't have much of a reason not to wipe his ass with the flag either.

[ddongbap]

Wow, some srus bzns in hurr.

[TheRealEnth]

Yeah, This i can official say... Is pretty much like one of the only things that makes me like bush =D lol..... That was pretty sick =p

[tk-421]

Nobody respects this man, please respect the office.

As I said if you don't respect the man, respect the office. I don't care if you didn't vote for him, disrespecting the President of the US is like wiping your ass with the Flag.

Well, I, for one, am not an American citizen, but I think I can safely say that one's president is the first one who should respect his/her office, and Bush certainly hasn't in quite a few occasions. If a person wants respect, he/she ultimately needs to earn it.

Oh and Panama boy, your country wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the US. You would still be some Colombians slave if we didn't recognize the "revolution" when we wanted to build the canal
What does that have anything to do with this discussion? Besides, that last statement is not necessarily true.

I agree that a certain level of respect is actually "inherited" by a president elect. But when the president's term is over, the respect he/she leaves office with is entirely his/her own. :respekt:

[junorico24]

Iraqis should throw hugs and kisses to bush? come on BOB.

[Bob_VT]

I am positive that there are some unemployed secret service agents from that incident. I am pissed that they did not react quicker.

The secret service needs to relook at their gameplans.

[TLyttle]

DFA's point comes from outside the US. Very few people on this site from "foreign" countries (Canada is recognised as "foreign" by the US) have much respect for Bush, and the catastrophic results of his policies. If anyone brought the Office into disrepute, it is Bush himself, not some journalist. Bush's reaction to the whole episode was typically ignorant and arrogant, same as every other public appearance he has made in the last 8 years. G'bye, Dubya, don't let the door smack your butt on the way out.

[ChinoCharles]

Arm them one decade and invade them the next... no wonder no one trusts us, and no wonder at least one Iraqi found it prudent to let our President know that he is not happy with him.

Oh, Brian. I love it when you tell it like it is.

[GeneW]

I would also like to point out that the Iraqi people never asked for our version of freedom, and every poll that has been done from the time of our invasion and throughout our occupation has shown that the Iraqis feel their life was better under Saddam. Much of the country still has spotty or entirely missing basic services (which they had in fairly good order under Saddam), and the Sunni/Shiite issue that Saddam kept under control via tyranny has now fomented and spilled out into the streets. Not a week goes by without some terroristic act between those two factions occurring.

Arm them one decade and invade them the next... no wonder no one trusts us, and no wonder at least one Iraqi found it prudent to let our President know that he is not happy with him.

I don't buy parts of this poll.... things have been pretty rough in Iraq since the 1980s. They've had to fight two wars and then dealt with an occupation. Things might be worse now but they were not that good under Saddam.


On the other hand maybe the Poller didn't ask the right question? So I'll ask it of US posters here.


How would you feel if the Islamic World launched an economic embargo on the US? For five or ten years we cannot get enough oil. Food is scarce. Young kids easily die of disease. We become quite poor. In response the US Congress passes food rationing laws. Crime goes up and people are angry and frustrated. The dollar soon is worthless paper.

One day aircraft of the Islamic League bomb Washington and a few other major cities heavily. Our Navy is in mothballs and we have no nukes. The President issues an order for US troops to stand down. He or she negotiates a surrender and dissolves Congress.

The US Armed Forces are sent home.

The Islamic League begins to occupy the US. A force of millions enters the US through our ports, lands from troop transports and begins occupation duty. Any town larger than 50,000 citizens is occupied by Muslim Troops. Large "reaction forces" are stationed to quell unrest and are backed up by air assets.

They are here to spread the Word of God. They are here to free us of wickedness, gives us the peace of submission to Allah and to free us from the clutches of the wealthy, the wicked and the faithless.

You should be grateful to them, right?

Few of these troops speak English but expect you obey their commands. If you are driving to work and they set up a road block and you don't obey their commands they might shoot you. They can enter your homes at any time to find "terrorists" or "infidels" or just come around because they feel like it. You have to let them enter.

If one speaks to you and you don't understand they speak slowly. Finally they get angry and smack you. Sooner or later you'll pick up Arabic.


Since their mission to bring Islam to America they close the bars. Liquor is banned. Brewing your own beer or wine or distilling liquor will get your sent to jail. Selling liquor brings very hard penalties.

Churches are subject to a Dhimmi tax and are blown up if they harbor "militant critics of Islam".

The Islamic League forces everyone to either proclaim the Shahada or pay the Dhimmi tax. Anyone who refuses to do either is rounded up for re-education and is considered potentially hostile.

Some Americans, especially devout Christians and Jews, are arrested and taken to other countries where they are tortured into confessing that they are anti-Islamic. The worst of the worst are taken to Guantanamo and kept there as enemy combatants. Some come home from this "religious cleansing" either rabidly Islamic or frightened people.

In response some Christians and Jews, and quite a few Secular Humanists, form terror cells. They proclaim that those who are not with them are against them. Average Americans are caught in the middle. A visit to the Mall or the store could be a rendezvous with death from a bomb or shooter.

In response the Islamic League steps up investigations into terror. More people are arrested, more homes blown up and more people are investigated and worse.

If you go along with the Islamic League you're a traitor. Since the Islamic League is providing work you have to feed your family. Do you risk your life or feed your family?

The Islamic League proclaims to the world that they are "bringing the Word of God to a nation thirsty for Righteousness". They tell everyone that America ought to be grateful for this act of Salvation and Liberation from sin, lust and wickedness.

As a citizen of the American Islamic Republic you are expected to take off Fridays and work the rest of the week. If you are caught stealing they amputate your hands. If you commit adultery you could be stoned to death. Don't even ask what will happen if you are a homosexual - they'll drop a wall on you in some cases, especially Taliban troops.

If you are a woman and are found on the street without a veil you may be raped by Islamic Troops since you are being immodest. At the very least you'll be harassed. The local commanders do not do anything to stop any outrages, though the Islamic Republic states that sexual assault is not acceptable.

Women found without a male escort could also be raped. Some simply disappear never to be seen again.

Anyone who resists a Muslim Soldier may be shot on the spot, or their homes may be bombed from the air. Those who harbor terrorists can be arrested, tortured and shot.

Because there are not enough Muslim Troops to do the job wealthy Islamic Nations hire "private contractors" to supplement the ordinary troops. These contractors are powerfully armed and answer to no one. Soon you hear of stories where these contractors are doing awful things. The American Islamic Republic issues statements of complaint against these contractors. The Islamic League proclaims that once America is "fully submissive to God's Will" that the contractors will go home.

Car bombings begin in some cities. A group called "National Renaissance" claims responsibility. From time to time the lights go out as the "NR" stages another terror attack.

Soon electric power, which was not that reliable to begin with due to the Embargo this kind of crap makes it even more scarce. The Islamic League blames terrorists, even if it's just because of outdated power plants.


A huge "embassy" is built in Washington DC, on the site of of the Pentagon. This where the Islamic League will conduct business and help to "advise" the American Islamic Republic how to conduct its affairs.

In each city the Islamic League builds a "consulate". Soon you learn that the Islamic League is sending missionaries and administrators who will help shape America into a "righteous nation". You can tell who they are - they're the ones driving shiny new cars.

All schools must teach spoken Arabic. Children learn to read and write in Arabic. They also memorize the Koran. Children are encouraged to report parents who use alcohol or drugs or who say "things that are critical of the Islamic Republic". Children adopt Islamic names which they use in school and encourage their parents to acquire such a name. It's another way of finding out who is for God and who is against Him.

Naturally Israel is destroyed, and the surviving Jews are sent to America, where they will live in a sparsely populated part of the US. The rest of us are expected to keep watch on them and "contain them". These Jews, many of whom have military training, are kept under close watch by Islamic Troops. You hear rumors of atrocities but nobody really is sure.

The Internet is tightly censored and monitored. If you post something bad about the Islamic Republic you can expect some sort of inquiry.

One day a pollster comes to you. How do you feel about the Islamic League and their occupation, which is meant to bring the Word of God to you?

Are you grateful? Really?

Gene

[bobselectric]

Very thought provoking Gene. While not probable, it brings to mind the Invasion by Immigration occurring in Europe at this moment. There are large population centers of Muslims in France and the Netherlands, with some estimates saying the Muslims will be the majority in the Netherlands within 10 years. I AM AWARE THAT ALL MUSLIMS ARE NOT TERRORISTS!!! However you can't ignore that the poor, adolescents, and college students are the majority of extremists, and some of these people will become terrorists to spread the word of Allah.
One of the basic tenets of Islam is the respect that must be paid to guests, even disliked ones. I guess that all the applause from the Muslim world is that the Yankees will sign the shoe thrower and use him in the rotation.
Read your history folks, and not the propaganda that is taught in the schools

[DFA]

Great post Gene, putting oneself in the other's shoes does great lenghts for having a wider perspective of things.

TYLyttle speaks the truth, my intention wasn't and never has been to lash out at the office or the general US population.
I(and a really large group of people around the world, as weird as it might seem to some.) resent the ideas and leadership of one man only: George Bush. The man just has WAY too much blood on his hands, and has done unmesurable damage to our planet by turning his back on a bunch of environmental policies.

bobselectric, as tk-421 mentioned, your lashing out at me is both overblown and uncalled for. Yes, the US lent a hand with our independence, but all you really did was park your boats around to keep Colombia from getting reinforcements here and then bribe them to keep from coming back, for just a fraction of what you were going to put in your pockets because of the Canal.

Anyway, just drop me PM if you want to discuss history, because I don't think a lot of people here are that interested in some 3rd world country's independence story.

[slothman86]

that's so great!

[TLyttle]

Wow, I'm glad that Gene took the time to write that! I kept thinking those same thoughts since 2003, but whenever I advanced any of them on other sites I was told I was anti-US. Very factual, and very insightful.

[Tamago]

honestly, who throws a shoe??
http://www.joblo.com/newsimages1/thoo-drevil.JPG

[Malaya1221]

Gene, The Sultan of Spin...I don't deny that half of what you said are true but I don't believe US invaded Iraq to quench the oppressions...The US Gov't. had/have backed tyrannical states and we've never blinked an eye if the state violated any human rights!(used to live in one)...It's sad to say that most of our so called "Freedom and Democracy" imparting to the world is about money!

You reminded me of Matt Damon(Will) from "Good will Hunting"...

Sean: Thought about what you said to me the other day, about my painting. Stayed up half the night thinking about it. Something occurred to me... fell into a deep peaceful sleep, and haven't thought about you since. Do you know what occurred to me?
Will: No.
Sean: You're just a kid, you don't have the faintest idea what you're talkin' about.
Will: Why thank you.
Sean: It's all right. You've never been out of Boston.
Will: Nope.
Sean: So if I asked you about art, you'd probably give me the skinny on every art book ever written. Michelangelo, you know a lot about him. Life's work, political aspirations, him and the pope, sexual orientations, the whole works, right? But I'll bet you can't tell me what it smells like in the Sistine Chapel. You've never actually stood there and looked up at that beautiful ceiling; seen that. If I ask you about women, you'd probably give me a syllabus about your personal favorites. You may have even been laid a few times. But you can't tell me what it feels like to wake up next to a woman and feel truly happy. You're a tough kid. And I'd ask you about war, you'd probably throw Shakespeare at me, right, "once more unto the breach dear friends." But you've never been near one. You've never held your best friend's head in your lap, watch him gasp his last breath looking to you for help. I'd ask you about love, you'd probably quote me a sonnet. But you've never looked at a woman and been totally vulnerable. Known someone that could level you with her eyes, feeling like God put an angel on earth just for you. Who could rescue you from the depths of hell. And you wouldn't know what it's like to be her angel, to have that love for her, be there forever, through anything, through cancer. And you wouldn't know about sleeping sitting up in the hospital room for two months, holding her hand, because the doctors could see in your eyes, that the terms "visiting hours" don't apply to you. You don't know about real loss, 'cause it only occurs when you've loved something more than you love yourself. And I doubt you've ever dared to love anybody that much. And look at you... I don't see an intelligent, confident man... I see a cocky, scared shitless kid. But you're a genius Will. No one denies that. No one could possibly understand the depths of you. But you presume to know everything about me because you saw a painting of mine, and you ripped my fucking life apart. You're an orphan right?
[Will nods]
Sean: You think I know the first thing about how hard your life has been, how you feel, who you are, because I read Oliver Twist? Does that encapsulate you? Personally... I don't give a shit about all that, because you know what, I can't learn anything from you, I can't read in some fuckin' book. Unless you want to talk about you, who you are. Then I'm fascinated. I'm in. But you don't want to do that do you sport? You're terrified of what you might say. Your move, chief.


Salaam 'Alaykum!

"honestly, who throws a shoe?" a fu$&ing journo!:biggrin:

[1NZYaris1]

Dude, that Bush, hes got some crazy reflexes.

Practicing for when he goes Pheasant Shooting with Chainy, :laugh:
hope i spelt hes name correct.:thumbup:

[junorico24]

I just think alot of Iraqis had had enough wid dis BS. like gene would if it happened in his backyard, right? So stop the war in Iraq. And let's have peace. Buh the world is a crazy place indeed.

[at3GG]

I like how people lash out at Bush. He is in fact, the most hated presient in history. But guess what. In 2001, after sept 11th, he was also the MOST loved. Like it or not. Love someone when you agree with them hate them when you dont. Hope all these bush haters dont have wives at home because geuss what? they're cheating on you for being deuschebags. Its true that probably a lot of iraqi's don't want us there, and those would be the ones destroying things and causing chaos. If we simply pull out and leave, EVERYTHING we have done will be a waste, whether you like it or not. Everyone who has lost a mother, brother, husband or son will have lost in vain. For the record, I do not agree with us being in Iraq generally speaking, but we're there now and we need to finish the job . I am being deployed soon, and i hate that I will have to leave my wonderful wife. But we need to fix this problem, because we are NOT the main cause of it. We're the only country strong enough to do so. This country's problems involve millions of innocents, in many other countries. We as members of the armed forces have volunteered to do this job. Stop complaining about us going over to do something we volunteered for.

P.S If i had walked down the street and hit precious Obama with a shoe i would be sitting in a cell right now, and so far he's nothing more than a celebrity. You cant deny it.

[bobselectric]

I like how people lash out at Bush. He is in fact, the most hated presient in history. But guess what. In 2001, after sept 11th, he was also the MOST loved. Like it or not. Love someone when you agree with them hate them when you dont. Hope all these bush haters dont have wives at home because geuss what? they're cheating on you for being deuschebags. Its true that probably a lot of iraqi's don't want us there, and those would be the ones destroying things and causing chaos. If we simply pull out and leave, EVERYTHING we have done will be a waste, whether you like it or not. Everyone who has lost a mother, brother, husband or son will have lost in vain. For the record, I do not agree with us being in Iraq generally speaking, but we're there now and we need to finish the job . I am being deployed soon, and i hate that I will have to leave my wonderful wife. But we need to fix this problem, because we are NOT the main cause of it. We're the only country strong enough to do so. This country's problems involve millions of innocents, in many other countries. We as members of the armed forces have volunteered to do this job. Stop complaining about us going over to do something we volunteered for.

P.S If i had walked down the street and hit precious Obama with a shoe i would be sitting in a cell right now, and so far he's nothing more than a celebrity. You cant deny it.

Thank you for eloquently agreeing with my viewpoint. Stand up for your President (whether you love him or hate him). I also don't agree with us being in Iraq, but the truth is we are there. When you do a job , do it right. Saying you support the Troops, then publicly denigrating the C-in-C just shows what a hypocrite you really are.

My friend, I hope and pray that you are kept safe. We as a country are proud of your and all other members service.

[Bob_VT]

I am pretty positive that GW is tired of the crap too. Given the chance I bet he would drop down to the level and punch the guys lights out.

If the roles were reversed and it was an assault done in our country...... immediate jail time. I spent 20 years in the acive duty Army and did not agree with all of my former leaders but I took an oath and stuck with the oath. There was not an option to only obey the orders we agreed with.......

at3GG have a safe deployment..... I am on your side.

[Malaya1221]

offtopic:
and it's not hypocritical to stand behind a person you don't like and fight a war you don't agree?:iono:

btw, the journo is in jail and perhaps, getting some beating!:ouch:

[GeneW]

Gene, The Sultan of Spin...I don't deny that half of what you said are true but I don't believe US invaded Iraq to quench the oppressions...

I wanted people to imagine how it would feel if militant purist form of Islam, say Wahabbism, inspired some nations to invade the US and impose Islam upon us, THEIR version of Islam. There are many many different kinds of Islam, I know.

I don't myself know why the US invaded Iraq. I wish that it would end as soon as possible. We also ought to leave Afghanistan, and I think leaving Bosnia, Kosovo and a few others places is also in order.

As President Washington said in his farewell address -

"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it?

Gene

[tk-421]

"Observe good faith and justice towards all nations; cultivate peace and harmony with all. Religion and morality enjoin this conduct; and can it be, that good policy does not equally enjoin it?

Cultivating peace cannot be a valid excuse to go to war. War will always bring more war. Peace is never really attained, either. It is like a light at the end of a tunnel. Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't. But destroying the train that ultimately gets you to the light is not exactly the best way to accomplish actually getting there. Am I making any sense here?

I once read a quote that read: "Bombing for peace is like f*cking for virginity". I couldn't agree more.

Much :respekt:, as always

[GeneW]

Cultivating peace cannot be a valid excuse to go to war. War will always bring more war. Peace is never really attained, either. It is like a light at the end of a tunnel. Sometimes you see it, sometimes you don't. But destroying the train that ultimately gets you to the light is not exactly the best way to accomplish actually getting there. Am I making any sense here?

I once read a quote that read: "Bombing for peace is like f*cking for virginity". I couldn't agree more.

Much :respekt:, as always

I do not support the occupation of Iraq. I did not support the Iraq invasion in 2003. I did not support the Gulf War of 1991.

I supported a limited punitive expedition against Al Qaeda assets in Afghanistan for the 9/11 attacks. No invasion, no nation building and no other crap. Simply a gesture for a gesture - bombing several training centers and madrassas to rubble, messing with their finances and then moving on.

I did not support the bombings of Yugoslavia in 1999. I did not support ending "genocide" in Rwanda, Sudan, nor in Tibet.

The last operation that I did support, covert assistance to the Nicaraguan Resistance, I would not support today. We have no business interfering in the affairs of latin American people. We've meddled enough down there.

I cannot think of one operation that the US has done my life time that I'd support today.

I do support Ballistic Missile Defense since defense is a moral imperative of the state. I support the Reliable Replacement Warhead program (for a small number of units) and insist that we have some testing of this unit. For every RRW that the US makes we need to take several existing warheads out of the stockpile and convert them to reactor fuel. The idea of letting our stockpile degrade to uselessness is irresponsible and foolish.

I support a modest nuclear deterrent (both land based and sea borne) and a modest standing Army and Navy. Enough for defense not for nation building and other stupid exercises.

I think that the United States government needs to mind its own damn business and that the Wilsonian idea of "nation building" is foolishness. Woodrow Wilson couldn't do it right and neither can Bush, Obama or anyone else.

Gene

[GeneW]

If we simply pull out and leave, EVERYTHING we have done will be a waste, whether you like it or not. Everyone who has lost a mother, brother, husband or son will have lost in vain. For the record, I do not agree with us being in Iraq generally speaking, but we're there now and we need to finish the job .

We don't even have a clear direction from the Administration what "finish the job" means. A stable democracy in the Middle East?

Most Democracies are not stable - real boats rock.

If you mean no violence than how about US inner cities, which are about as violent as parts of Iraq? How about parts of other developing nations, say Brazil, which has ten times the murder rate of the US?

By any reasonable definition the US has either done as much as it can do or is supporting a puppet state that would collapse in a few weeks after we left. Our people are fighting and dying for this? We're squandering our tax money for this? Iraqi civilians who have no choice whatsoever are dying for this?

The United States has been in several interventions in the last 100 years.

We invaded Russia in 1918 to protect military supplies in Arkangel and to help the Czech Legion evacuate through Siberia. After a year or two, some casualties and a near mutiny by the staff, we left. The invasion helped the Commies win the war, as we supported their enemies the White Army. That's a good move - go in half assed and help the people who want to destroy you win the war.

The US invaded Haiti a century ago. No permanent government came from it.

The US invaded Nicaragua in the 1930s. The result was installing a bastard named Somoza, who was so oppressive that only the worst criminals could have stood up to him. Jimmy Carter decided to be nice and cut Somoza off at the knees, leaving these criminals in charge. The Sandinistas were criminals, Communists who regimented the people, massacred English speaking blacks along the mosquito coast (about thirty percent of them died during resettlement operations), and then the Contras came along.

The net result was a horrible civil war, purges, Cuban mercenaries training Nicaraguans and Salvadoran guerillas, and lots of awful reaction and counter reaction. Including a horrible genocide in Guatemala and a dirty war in El Salvador. To this day they're still fixing the mess down there.

We invaded Korea after we essentially invited the North to invade when Dean Atcheson said that the affairs of the Koreas did not concern us. Kim Sung Il got Stalin to okay the invasion and off they went. April Gillespie would do the same thing forty years late with Saddam Hussein.

We lost 30,000 guys, mostly in "See saw" wars with the Chinese while officers were out getting their tickets punched by "leading in combat" against fixed positions. Draftees were getting mauled in the process. Eisenhower threatened to go nuclear so the Chinese and Russians made Kim sign an armistice. They're still at war to this day.

What you may not have read in the history books is that the US used fire bombing raids against North Korea. By 1952 most of the population in North Korea were living in caves. Every city in the north was burned to the ground. Every one, and the US Air Force also burned Pusan South Korea to the ground too!

One in every five Koreans died during that war. One in five!!! No Gun Ri was a tiny sliver of the mayhem we caused over there.


The US occupied Viet Nam from 1954 until 1975. We took over from the French, who we screwed over by playing games with support at Dien Bien Phu and then showed them how Americans play. First we refused to hold democratic elections in our area, but the north held theirs and Ho Chi Minh won. We put in a strong man into our side of the 38 parallel.

The US tried Keynesian "pump priming" and crashed the economy by the early 1960s. Then we invaded in force. Then the Viet Namese dug in and resisted us. By 1975 we had 50,000 dead, had wasted two million Viet Namese and were no closer to success. Our irrational rules of engagement guaranteed a stalemate, but those boys with scrambled eggs sure did get their tickets punched, plus a lot of Defense Contractors made out like bandits over there.

We are not good at nation building. I'm sorry to say this, as I lost an uncle in Viet Nam and have quite a few friends who were dicked up in Viet Nam, the Gulf War and in Iraq. These guys got hurt to benefit someone, but it wasn't the people that they were supposed to be fighting for.

Sometimes you have to get up and walk away from the table, especially if you are not fixing to win, or worse, you don't even know what "win" means.


P.S If i had walked down the street and hit precious Obama with a shoe i would be sitting in a cell right now, and so far he's nothing more than a celebrity. You cant deny it.

Yeah, you would have been arrested and charged with assaulting a President elect. If you were not shot by his bodyguards.

Gene

[TheRealEnth]

does anyone notice the guy next to bush throughout the whole thing? I don't know who he is but.. He is calm throughout the whole thing.. He doesnt flinch with the shoe coming generally his way. He doesnt even give an expression regarding the shoe. Its like hes all chill about it as if it happens 24/7

[redyaris]

A shame the shoe launcher didnt make contact. And where was the Secret Service? Even they don't seem to care what happens to him now. They were very lucky shoe slinger didn't throw a grenade.

Anyway, what's more relevant is what he yelled to Bush.

"This is a gift from the Iraqis; this is the farewell kiss, you dog!"

"This is from the widows, the orphans and those who were killed in Iraq!"

We attacked a nation that did nothing to us. Thousands of Iraqi civilians dead for no justifiable reason. 'W' had a grudge against Saddam from before the time he took office for threatening his daddy. 9/11 was a convenient excuse to invade. All that the unprovoked attack on Iraq did was get over 3K US military personnel dead, greatly boosted worldwide terrorism recruiting numbers, and cost the US BILLIONS, all of which continue to this day. This is BILLIONS that could have gone to homeland security and economic programs to benefit suffering American citizens not iraqis.

Bush once again gets off scott free with no accountability for what he has done and stupidly just created yet another hero in the land where we were supposed to be welcomed with flowers. And we have one more month of 'leadership' under this moron whose final act is the complete destruction of our national economy in all sectors (housing/industrial/retail/financial).

http://www.bushslastday.com/

[GeneW]

We attacked a nation that did nothing to us. Thousands of Iraqi civilians dead for no justifiable reason. 'W' had a grudge against Saddam from before the time he took office for threatening his daddy.

You're ignoring the fact that the US has been doing warlike things to Iraq since 1991.

Recall "Operation Desert Fox", a bombing campaign carried on under UN approval to nail anti-aircraft sites. This happened under Clinton. Lots of other attacks occurred, sometimes daily.

The US helped break Iraq into three pieces. The Kurdish north and Shia south were under the "no fly" zones. The US dropped bombs almost daily, got into SAM duels with high tech anti-aircraft systems and finally were using "Concrete bombs" in order to minimize collateral damage.

Saddam was giving every suicide bomber's family in Israel a cash prize, about $25,000 dollars. That's a huge amount of money for a poor family. This blood money helped to fuel the suicide bombing campaign against the Israelis. So the Isrealis were pushing the US to do something.

Besides, as long as Iraq was under an embargo they could not sell ample amounts of oil at world prices. This helped to keep the price of oil higher. This pleased the Saudis and Kuwaitis, who were pumping out oil and doing arms deals with the US. Also pleased friends of Bill Clinton, such as Marc Rich, who made a killing helping Saddam break the embargo.

If you'll recall, in 1998 the Clinton Administration committed the US to "regime change" in Iraq.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_Liberation_Act

From that time on it was a matter of time before the US did something. The 9/11 attacks provided an "excuse".

What nobody counted on was that the Iraqis would resist so well. The experience of the British in the 1920s was one much like what the US is experiencing now. The Iraqis were good guerrilla fighters back then, and they did not have Soviet style "partisan" training that they got as part of the "Saddam Fedayeen".

As the Good Book likes to say, "Pride goes before a fall".

Gene

[GeneW]

I(and a really large group of people around the world, as weird as it might seem to some.) resent the ideas and leadership of one man only: George Bush. The man just has WAY too much blood on his hands, and has done unmesurable damage to our planet by turning his back on a bunch of environmental policies.

Don't put it all on Bush. I don't think well of him myself but please keep in mind that the US Congress handed him war powers authorization back in 2002. There were, and still are, a lot of "neo-Cons" who support nation building.

I'm curious - what sort of environmental policy is Bush supposed to back? Human caused global Warming has not been demonstrated from the data, and the computer models have been found to be faulty. The IPCC are a bunch of whores with PhDs who do not hew to sound scientific principles, but are more akin to the Catholic Church officials who criticized Galileo and Copernicus for their "heresy".

You can add me to your hate list if you wish - I oppose the Kyoto Treaty and the Poznan protocols. I hope that every person in the US who likes such non-sense suffers as a result, as many will.

What is tragic is how many people in the developing world will suffer as a result of Kyoto and Poznan. If you really think that the Carbon Tax proceeds are coming your way guess again. The wealthy will take most of them and live better and folks like yourself will be kept down.

Gene

[at3GG]

move to canada and stop complaining, honestly. Supporting a person who, along with his "council", who knows more about the situation than we could possibly imagine, even if I dont entriely agree with him, is not hypocritical. It is accepting that they do in fact know more about the situation then we do. One of these days people will realize that CNN and Fox know probably about 10% of whats ACTUALLY going on.

For the support and well wishes, I thank you sincerely. YW ....around the glode in...well 6 months but you get the idea!

[at3GG]

Also, i did not mean to make a point that i dislike Obama. Though I was for McCain, I honestly think Obama will do some good. Hopefully he will be great. The point I was making is that (call him President "elect" if you like) he still really isnt anybody. Hes the same as john travolta, in that he can address millions, but cant really do anything.....(yet of course).

[PetersRedYaris]

move to canada and stop complaining, honestly. Supporting a person who, along with his "council", who knows more about the situation than we could possibly imagine, even if I dont entriely agree with him, is not hypocritical. It is accepting that they do in fact know more about the situation then we do. One of these days people will realize that CNN and Fox know probably about 10% of whats ACTUALLY going on.

For the support and well wishes, I thank you sincerely. YW ....around the glode in...well 6 months but you get the idea!

Exactly... 2-3 years ago every headline was stated as the bloodiest day/week/month so far. Always, always, always, bad news... Now you hear nothing at all about the war because all is going well. Good news doesn't sell, it's bad or you don't get to know.

What's sad is this war could still be lost, not because the US is incapable, but because the majority of people have failed to produce the will to win. A country can't win if it's people don't stand behind it.

And peace would be great, but saddly, it will never happen. It's human nature, someone will always be greedy and take advantage. Maybe we should try and win terrorism over with love... :laugh:

[YamilR]

offtopic:
and it's not hypocritical to stand behind a person you don't like and fight a war you don't agree?:iono:

btw, the journo is in jail and perhaps, getting some beating!:ouch:

We do not stand behind a person, We stand behind a whole country. Something you obviously don't have the cojones to do

[at3GG]

^ damn right

[jinxor]

I guess, for the decisions he made, he should have been man enough to take that shoe on his chest. I despise him for the fact that for something immaterial like oil, he killed so many innocent ppl in baghdad and much more dearer soldiers of the US/UK/ Australia.

[Malaya1221]

We do not stand behind a person, We stand behind a whole country. Something you obviously don't have the cojones to do

yes, because i learned my lessons and if this is how you measure manhood and patriotism then you're barking at the wrong tree, son!:wink:

if u want to make it personal then we can!

[Malaya1221]

^ damn right

think for yourself! be cool and be safe!:smile:

[YamilR]

yes, because i learned my lessons and if this is how you measure manhood and patriotism then you're barking at the wrong tree, son!:wink:

if u want to make it personal then we can!

That's fine. I'll take the watch while you polish your nails

[Malaya1221]

^ what a really brave soldier you are, we should be proud of you...just make sure you don't take naps while polishing my fingernails and my toenails!:smile:

[Malaya1221]

yamilr and at3gg! seriously, if i offended you in anyways...i apologize! i'm just calling it how i see it!:smile:

[junorico24]

It's all good, Obama is the man now. :cool: I think Iraqis should file war crimes on bush tho. Death by a 100 thousand shoes.:bellyroll: for all the lives he took. Joking, okay. Don't bomb or shoot me Yamilr /attg3. Gesh!! I'm innocent. Dammit!!

[at3GG]

I'm done, I hate political arguments. MA1, be safe down in GTMO

[junorico24]

I'm done, I hate political arguments. MA1, be safe down in GTMO

so does the iraqis :wink: look man, be safe over there.