One Trillion

[Bob_VT]

While some economists consulted by Obama's team recommended spending of up to $1 trillion over two years, a more likely figure seems to be $850 billion.

OMG :eek: Why not just distribute the cash across the country and forgive ALL debts. Make everyone in the USA start with a clean slate!

[KCALB SIRAY]

That's right, Bob said it! Now get off the phone ya big dope! Oh how I couldn't agree with you more right now, Bob. Another idea would be just to freeze any tax across the board for two months. Talk about a jump start to the econ.

[Bob_VT]

Well we can not freeze the taxes :frown: because they pay many of the municipal salaries and run the country. If we forgave all the debt people will have more disposable income to take on the new tax burden.

When the rumor of 1 Trillion or even 850 Billion dollars is thrown around it makes the recent 700 billion look small...... makes the Auto industry look tiny. :eek:

Something is going to have to give!

[KCALB SIRAY]

The tax idea is wishful thinking in some areas, but something will give like you said, it will just come in the form of a Bailout, for the Bailout, for the first Bailout. This would be one issue to watch over the next year for sure.

[Bob_VT]

I hate that word "Bailout" why not use "suicide" or "poor answer" or "chicken's way out" either way we are all screwed........ Obama did want "change" and "change" is coming.

[elmo]

why not a federal income tax break for a couple of months

[KCALB SIRAY]

why not a federal income tax break for a couple of months
That's more or less of what I was going for in the first post. I think it is a great idea:thumbsup:

[elmo]

or better still get congress to pass the "fair tax" bill talk about a stimulus

[jclo3313]

It will be an absolution of all debit up to 10% on a global scale. Than enter a whole new currency for the world, a fiat type of currency with no real value except what is placed on it. Scary.

[Bob_VT]

Well that will not work either.....those tax dollars collected pay the gov't (the military too) and that is one of the places the funds will come from. If the USA got a Federal Tax break... people would not save it or use it to pay down debt.... they would spend it.

1,000 one thousand
1,000,000 one million
1,000,000,000 one billion
1,000,000,000,000 one trillion

Our current estimated population in the USA (includes children too)
305,908,521

I am afraid that we are in an economic disaster....

[elmo]

i think your right Bob, we are in an economic disaster, and frankly we got no one to blame but ourself's greed got us there

[SIPNGAS]

They would be SO SMART to forgive all debt. And it's BECAUSE we're all greedy and can't live without....or do with less. MOST Americans could get back to spending and all would be right with the world...

maybe momentarily but some of us would be smart about it and really use the opportunity to be better off.

[Rich k]

Blame ourselves? Yea I blame me, me and my fixed rate 30 year mortgage, me and my refusing to take out a loan that was larger than i could reasonably afford (even though they damn near wouldn't let me walk out without shoving one down my throat) me who purchased the extravagent and luxirious yaris, me who for at least 4 of the past 8 years lived off of frozen fish and 2 dollar packs of pork chops and veggies out of a can. Me who has 3,000 in a retirement account invested in ohhhhhh so risky us govt bonds. Yep its all my fault, this whole mess, and everyone like me too, we are to blame.

[Rich k]

I can't tell you who's faulit it is, though i can say this for certain, it not my fault, and its not most american's faults. Though i can see i'm going to be lucky if the worst of it for me is going back to living off of frozen fish and canned veggies.

[Rich k]

Sorry i'm a bit hungry, didn't mean for that to come across too harsh, off to lunch.

[Bob_VT]

Well what pisses me off is the fact that I pay my bills on time....have never de-faulted on anything ..... don't make much money and I will just never get ahead.... but I am following the example I was taught ..... get married, kids, buy a home but now retirement is going to be when I eventually drop dead.

Now take the greed factor and look at the world. People with get rich quick schemes flipping houses and buying things they could never pay for..... the auto makers doing subvented leasing and rolling that over and over.... it has caught up.

I sincerely think the good old days were when interest rates were higher..... I remember that if you got a 15% rate on a car loan that was good. Then again that was only on a 3 year loan. Now people are getting cars for 6 and 7 years..... spending money on an asset that depreciates ????? for the next 6 or 7 years!!!!

[elmo]

if people didn't have to TRY and live above their means this BS wouldn't be happening

i read about one couple that made less than $40,000.00 a year combined that got a sub prime loan for a $400,000.00 house, true the bank loaned the $$ but they were both greedy and stupid to think they could afford it. when the rate adjusted what do you think happened?

i'm not tryin to say we are all this way but think about it how many people YOU know that are constantly trying to live above their means. my wife and i have worked our asses off and did without luxury's for years to get where we are, our house is paid for and outside the recurring monthly bills we have no debit. and your right Bob it PISSES me to no end seeing everyone wanting a hand out, i really have no sympathy for these people.

[Shroomster]

Well what pisses me off is the fact that I pay my bills on time....have never de-faulted on anything ..... don't make much money and I will just never get ahead.... but I am following the example I was taught ..... get married, kids, buy a home but now retirement is going to be when I eventually drop dead.


Same thing I was taught

I sincerely think the good old days were when interest rates were higher..... I remember that if you got a 15% rate on a car loan that was good. Then again that was only on a 3 year loan. Now people are getting cars for 6 and 7 years..... spending money on an asset that depreciates ????? for the next 6 or 7 years!!!!

call it depreciation all you want it's just a lable...My Wife and I had three choices:
1. get a new car w/o any major defects/needed work and pay it off over 6 years

2. pour money into a car with a failing engine and transmission (total parts would be well out of immediate liquid financial availability = no way in hell to come up with 3-4k on the spot)

3. find an alternate mode of transportation that is both safe & reliable (no way is she riding the bus or a bike in this neighborhood)


I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just saying for every opinion there is an explanation that falls outside the noted solution.

[Bob_VT]

Same thing I was taught



call it depreciation all you want it's just a lbel...My Wife and I had three choices:
1. get a new car w/o any major defects/needed work and pay it off over 6 years

2. pour money into a car with a failing engine and transmission (total parts would be well out of immediate liquid financial availability = no way in hell to come up with 3-4k on the spot)

3. find an alternate mode of transportation that is both safe & reliable (no way is she riding the bus or a bike in this neighborhood)


I'm not disagreeing with you I'm just saying for every opinion there is an explanation that falls outside the noted solution.

Okay so you had a need to ne filled. What about the person who is maxed out ...... owes money on the current vehicle and then is talked into leasing or buying for a few bucks a week more ....... under the impression the economy would get better. These are people not buying with their brain but with an impulse and desire.

Hell I know my credit is good and I would love a nice Mercedes but my entire life would be around that payment....... I refuse to be held hostage to desire.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but answer this honestly...... don't you feel that many people will always take the easy way out with a lower payment for a longer period of time? That also means higher insurance premiums for longer and mandatory repairs. The "average" warranty is 3/36 and powertrain averages are 5/60.... sometimes they are gambling without thinking through the entire picture.

Take the person who can afford a yaris at about $14K but for an additional couple of years and a few bucks more they can buy a car for $20K..... not that the need is there but they do it on desire! Why in the hell does a family of 2 or 3 need a $40K truck or SUV when the cheaper car does the same thing.

[Phaeton]

Hitler declared a year of Jubilee, all debts forgiven. Worked great for the Germans, not so much for everybody they owed money outside of the country.

[Shroomster]

Okay so you had a need to ne filled. What about the person who is maxed out ...... owes money on the current vehicle and then is talked into leasing or buying for a few bucks a week more ....... under the impression the economy would get better. These are people not buying with their brain but with an impulse and desire.

Hell I know my credit is good and I would love a nice Mercedes but my entire life would be around that payment....... I refuse to be held hostage to desire.

I'm not trying to pick a fight but answer this honestly...... don't you feel that many people will always take the easy way out with a lower payment for a longer period of time? That also means higher insurance premiums for longer and mandatory repairs. The "average" warranty is 3/36 and powertrain averages are 5/60.... sometimes they are gambling without thinking through the entire picture.

Take the person who can afford a yaris at about $14K but for an additional couple of years and a few bucks more they can buy a car for $20K..... not that the need is there but they do it on desire! Why in the hell does a family of 2 or 3 need a $40K truck or SUV when the cheaper car does the same thing.


No, I understand and see your points, I just don't know how to properly classify desire vs. necessity when talking about a large scale of people

[bobselectric]

The issue is about people with good intentions spending more than they can afford. Also the dumbing down of America. If there was a class in school that was mandatory that would teach the everyday common sense ideals...
1. Basic Economics- how to balance a checkbook, why having a "emergency fund" is a good idea, how to calculate sales tax and tips, and a "real time" way to figure what money is worth.
2. Basic law- What bankruptcy means, What foreclosure means, what petty crimes will do to you later in life
3. Basic Common Sense- What you put on facebook will come back to haunt you, Not everyone on the interwebz is your friend, If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is.


What angers me is the people who got scammed, most recently by this Madoff guy, and lost there life savings. Oh pity me! When you get returns on an investment paying minimally 12-15% for twenty years, something has to be up.
I'm not saying it's not possible, but usually the people who make that kind of yield are doing it personally, hands on 100% of the time with a lot of diversity to offset losses. Not handing over all of your money to someone who is shady about the details and keeps you quiet with a check.

My two favorite quotes about money and wealth are-

"If you want to know what God thinks of money, look at the people he gives it to"- Woody Allen

"If you think that Micheal Jordan has wealth, you're wrong. Mike is rich... the guy who pays Mike has wealth"- Chris Rock

[JBIZZ]

Without the bailouts CEO's and corrupt politicians don't get paid. It would make too much sense to distribute that money to everyone equally, in order to stimulate the economy. The elite get 1st dibs on taxpayer's money, the rest trickles down to us peons (majority).

This is ultimately caused by the elite, mostly republicans (a.k.a. filthy rich people) for eliminating certain lending regulations. I am glad Obama was elected, but this mess just seems too big to clean up.

As far as the big 3 go, they will go bankrupt eventually. I know my friends and I will never buy an American car again. I use to like GM vehicles too, til I realized thy just don't last as long as Japanese cars. As far as the Unions go, They helped cause this financial catastrophe, which may just lead us into a depression. Its funny how someone working at a fast food place makes minimum wage, and how someone working at GM installing one screw on each car makes at least 3 times that.

Sorry if I offended anyone (republicans/union workers), just wanted to add my 2 cents

[GeneW]

Debt forgiveness creates a moral hazard of encouraging future mistakes "They'll bail us out again". This was why a lot of people were against Bank Bailouts.

Gene

[GeneW]

This is ultimately caused by the elite, mostly republicans (a.k.a. filthy rich people) for eliminating certain lending regulations.

Oh yeah....?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbOGRg3VzlQ


All Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008

Name Office State Party Grand Total Total from
PACs Total from Individuals
Dodd, Christopher J S CT D $165,400 $48,500 $116,900
Obama, Barack S IL D $126,349 $6,000 $120,349
Kerry, John S MA D $111,000 $2,000 $109,000
Bennett, Robert F S UT R $107,999 $71,499 $36,500
Bachus, Spencer H AL R $103,300 $70,500 $32,800
Blunt, Roy H MO R $96,950 $78,500 $18,450
Kanjorski, Paul E H PA D $96,000 $57,500 $38,500
Bond, Christopher S MO R $95,400 $64,000 $31,400
Shelby, Richard C S AL R $80,000 $23,000 $57,000
Reed, Jack S RI D $78,250 $43,500 $34,750
Reid, Harry S NV D $77,000 $60,500 $16,500
Clinton, Hillary S NY D $76,050 $8,000 $68,050
Davis, Tom H VA R $75,499 $13,999 $61,500

Please note who got the six figure contributions from Fannie Mae and Freddy Mac.

http://www.opensecrets.org/news/2008/09/update-fannie-mae-and-freddie.html

Now then.... I have to ask... why should Countrywide and other Mortgage pushers get hammered while the market leaders of subprime mortgages, the two Federal Agencies, gets a pass and a bailout?

By the way, the Rockefellers, Kennedys and John Kerry are multi-milloinares. Are they not "filthy rich" too?

Genes

[GeneW]

Well what pisses me off is the fact that I pay my bills on time....have never de-faulted on anything ..... don't make much money and I will just never get ahead.... but I am following the example I was taught ..... get married, kids, buy a home but now retirement is going to be when I eventually drop dead.

Retirement, Bob, is a recent historical thing. Most people died young or worked well into their elder years. I think retirement is a second childhood and is usually a horrifying experience, one that accelerates degeneration.

I never expected to retire. My parents are in their early seventies, both work and one is in Grad School. So for me this isn't big shakes.

Gene

[Bob_VT]

Without the bailouts CEO's and corrupt politicians don't get paid. It would make too much sense to distribute that money to everyone equally, in order to stimulate the economy. The elite get 1st dibs on taxpayer's money, the rest trickles down to us peons (majority).

This is ultimately caused by the elite, mostly republicans (a.k.a. filthy rich people) for eliminating certain lending regulations. I am glad Obama was elected, but this mess just seems too big to clean up.

As far as the big 3 go, they will go bankrupt eventually. I know my friends and I will never buy an American car again. I use to like GM vehicles too, til I realized thy just don't last as long as Japanese cars. As far as the Unions go, They helped cause this financial catastrophe, which may just lead us into a depression. Its funny how someone working at a fast food place makes minimum wage, and how someone working at GM installing one screw on each car makes at least 3 times that.

Sorry if I offended anyone (republicans/union workers), just wanted to add my 2 cents

You need to do your homework there. Look at who was behind the lending acts..... you will discover it started with Jimmy Carter and expanded with Bill Clinton. YOU also helped cause the financial problems. No one is without blame. So you support Obama spending a minimum of 850 billion and posssibly 1 trillion dollars to be raised by taxes? BUT you don't like the idea of the bailout?

[Bob_VT]

Hmmmmmmm 60 days after this post..... Where's the change? What's the figure up to?

[KCALB SIRAY]

ohhh don't forget the cost of flying the big plane all around the country to sign it days after making someone leave their mothers wake just to vote....

[jclo3313]

just wanted to add my 2 cents
Can I have half of that?:biggrin:

[churp]

ohhh don't forget the cost of flying the big plane all around the country to sign it days after making someone leave their mothers wake just to vote....

Our legislators at work.....no time to read it just vote----what the heck are they getting paid for?

Did Obama just not want them to read it? He took 3 times as long to sign it as they got to read it! Transparency at it's worst.

[yaris-me]

You're looking at sub-prime mortgages, consumer loans, people living beyond their means and corrupt politicians. The news does not understand the crisis we face, so they present misleading information. Later when things get sorted out and there is a clearer understanding, you will learn of structured finance and how CEOs took their bonus' up front before the loss' instead of the back end where they were suppose to. It is much more complicated than this, and add to that the deficit spending and the making of financial bubbles and trying to prevent them bursting. In the end your children and grand children will be holding the bag.