Current draw on battery, possibly glowshift gauges?

[goku87]

I have three glowshift gauges installed, volt, rpm, and water temp. I have had them installed for a while, but recently I have been noticing some issues with my battery. Every time I go to start my car I have to get a jump start. I thought it was just the cold + a bad battery, but when I took it in, the dealership said that there was something pulling more current than normal. I think he said it was somewhere around 330mA. Is it possible that my gauge cluster is causing this?

[mikenacarato]

the 3 gauges wont draw nearly enough power to make even the slightest difference.

[IllusionX]

300mA is not going to affect anything. It's like 1 extra 5w light bulb. lol

[Desperauto]

Interesting my HB is one year old and the battery did the same thing, I have gauges also and a stereo amp +++ and an alarm system. The battery would keep going dead. I realize that the alarm pulls current but not that much. I finally put the battery under and extreme test and found that one of the cells in the battery was shorting out and draining the battery. They must use cheap batterys in the factory install. It gave me the excuse to put in a yellow top, even though they cost 3 times as much.

[ChinoCharles]

Make sure your stereo systems are grounded.

[goku87]

Interesting my HB is one year old and the battery did the same thing, I have gauges also and a stereo amp +++ and an alarm system. The battery would keep going dead. I realize that the alarm pulls current but not that much. I finally put the battery under and extreme test and found that one of the cells in the battery was shorting out and draining the battery. They must use cheap batterys in the factory install. It gave me the excuse to put in a yellow top, even though they cost 3 times as much.

Interesting. Well, I disconnected the gauges last night so I could see if I needed a jump start this morning. Just to see if it was the gauges. I couldn't find my multimeter to actually measure the amperage.

Make sure your stereo systems are grounded.

I have the stock stereo system. :(

[IllusionX]

Interesting my HB is one year old and the battery did the same thing, I have gauges also and a stereo amp +++ and an alarm system. The battery would keep going dead. I realize that the alarm pulls current but not that much. I finally put the battery under and extreme test and found that one of the cells in the battery was shorting out and draining the battery. They must use cheap batterys in the factory install. It gave me the excuse to put in a yellow top, even though they cost 3 times as much.

Panasonic seem to be making pretty bad batteries lately. I'm hearing several cases of OEM batteries going bad. But Toyota dealers here replaces with "toyota" batteries, mfg'd by East Penn, and are 550amp vs 330amp panasonic.

[goku87]

Unhooked the power from the gauges. Battery was fine many many hours later. Why are my gauges pulling so much current?

[firemachine69]

They must use cheap batterys in the factory install.


They do. My completely stock Yaris (minus speakers that draw nothing while they're off) needed a boost the other day. POS car...

[mikenacarato]

your gauges wouldnt have anything to do with the battery dying, unless you have the power wire tapped into a constand 12v source. they do turn off when the car is off right?

[goku87]

your gauges wouldnt have anything to do with the battery dying, unless you have the power wire tapped into a constand 12v source. they do turn off when the car is off right?

Correct. The +12v is connected to +12v and the ACC is connected to the ACC, so when the car is off, the guages go off. I tapped off of the guage cluster wires. Thought that was appropriate. :thumbup:

Found my multimeter last night. I'm going to confirm that it's my gauges, and then try to figure out which gauge it is. But I really don't want to with it being so cold out. -16F is just cold.

[talnlnky]

330ma hahaha... thats a 4watt drain. yeah... that will take a long time to drain a battery
equation is Amps * Volts = watts
.330A * 12V = 3.96watts


check all your aftermarket electronics... lights, glowing dash crap, stereo... make sure that none of the connectors have any strands of wire that is frayed out and can possible short out on metal somewhere. That could cause a short which might speed up the discharge rate.

[goku87]

With the exception of the gauges (which are now disconnected) I have no aftermarket electronics in the Yaris. And to my surprise, I found out about an hour ago I could not start my car because the battery had gotten to low. It did just the "click-click-click-click-click-click" thing cars do when their battery isn't dead, but low.

What could possibly be draining my battery??? :confused:

[goku87]

Your battery is either crap or your alternator is not charging the battery properly. My .02 cents.

When my car is on the alt voltage hovers around 13.5v to 14.5v depending on temperature, weather, rpm, etc. I think the alt might be fine.

[Altitude]

My stock battery died after leaving the headlights on for 10 minutes without the engine running. I've owned many cars over the years and never had one go that quickly. Replaced it immediately with a Red Top.

I would agree that the stock batteries are crap - or at least there is a bad batch of them running around out there.

[talnlnky]

There's more to checking if an alt or battery is good then just checking the voltage. The amperage is also important. if your alt can charge at 14v but only puts out 20amps at 3000 rpms, then something is horribly wrong.

its much harder to check amperage however as you need an ammeter/amp clamp which are spendy.

[goku87]

There's more to checking if an alt or battery is good then just checking the voltage. The amperage is also important. if your alt can charge at 14v but only puts out 20amps at 3000 rpms, then something is horribly wrong.

its much harder to check amperage however as you need an ammeter/amp clamp which are spendy.

Lucky for me I work on electronics, and an ammeter I have. I'll check that next. About how many amps should I be looking for?

[yarisugi]

Though it may seem too early to get a new battery considering that's it's still a pretty new car - get a new battery.

[talnlnky]

Lucky for me I work on electronics, and an ammeter I have. I'll check that next. About how many amps should I be looking for?

I have no clue what a fully charged battery should be dumping for current.... your Alternator should dump something like 60-80amps in the range of 2000-3000rpms. At idle it'll be much lower, maybe as low as 15amps.


Alts usually max out in the 2-3k range.

[talnlnky]

Though it may seem too early to get a new battery considering that's it's still a pretty new car - get a new battery.

if that bat isn't the problem tho... he'll have just started putting wear and tear on a perfectly good bat and essentially thrown some money away.

[mickymouse]

@goku87

first off all.. good luck with the battery.
second.. what is the rated battery capacity on the Yaris (like 38Ah.. 45Ah???)

Test the alternator charging properly:
(this is just a quick check, better is an amp-meter with a range of at least 100, so forget small DMM, rather a clamp amp-meter)
start the engine
turn on every electric load on the car (rear defog, high beams, fan max speed etc)
run the engine at about 3000 RPM
Battery voltage should be around 14.2 - 14.8

test the battery:
(quick check only, to test the battery you would need to do a 20h discharge test)
turn all electric loads off, turn the engine off.
battery should settle at around 12.5 - 12.9V (give it like 30 min). In case the battery drops right away (in a matter of 1-2 minutes) than you have a more serious problem.
watch the voltage of the battery and turn on the parking lights. The voltage should drop instantly to like 0.1 - 0.3V lower. any more than that and the battery is either:
a) damaged
b) not fully charged

If you have fully discharged a standard battery a couple of times, consider replacing it. Batteries nowadays don't take abuse any more (cost reasons) like they did 10 years ago.
Yuasa used to make decent batteries. Especially when the temperatures are colder you will figure out a weak battery.
BTW, any battery store will check your battery (their testers are somewhat ok and mostly accurate) for free.

If you have indeed a damaged battery, consider that a starter battery could loose up to 50% of its rated capacity and still start your engine at warm temperatures.
However, slow drains are the killer (like forget to turn off the dome light on a weekend).

Keep us posted.

Cheers, Mike

[goku87]

Went to my car again to find it wouldn't start. No surprise. I jumped it, and left it running whilst I went to Walmart get some stuff. I came back 45 min or so later to my (still running) car, and got in so I could drive it to my shop so I could check the alternator output. Something compelled me to turn on the hazards, and guess what happened? My dome light dimmed every time the hazards flashed. I'm talking uber hard-core worse than a power-hungry-amplifier-installed-with-a-horribly-insufficient-electrical-system dim. Nothing else was on, not the heater, not the radio, not even the headlights. Then I turned my car off and it wouldnt start again. Not even turning over. No clicking. No dummy lights. Nothing.

So my guess would be that my alt isn't putting out enough to charge the battery and that is what's causing my battery to suck.

[mickymouse]

Hi goku87,

hmm i would say on the contrary.
MAybe it is the alternator... however I would still say the battery is dead.

So.. did you go the shop to have everything checked out?
Any possibility to hook up a battery charger for like 5 hours (not talking about thise jump start packs.. I refer to real battery charger).

BTW.. there are other possibilites what could be wrong,... however the alternator would be my third guess.

Cheers Mike

[goku87]

now the car is in storage and i am en route to iraq. i'll continue troubleshooting whenever i get back.

[goku87]

I took the car into the dealership yesterday finally and they called today saying they needed $400 to pay for putting the car interior back together. When I said I wasn't going to pay that much the guy said I could put it back together for and pay $300 for current labor costs.

Also, they said the extra current draw was caused by the aftermarket gauges i have installed.

Which are disconnected...

I am seriously going to throat punch someone...

[talnlnky]

I took the car into the dealership yesterday finally and they called today saying they needed $400 to pay for putting the car interior back together. When I said I wasn't going to pay that much the guy said I could put it back together for and pay $300 for current labor costs.

Also, they said the extra current draw was caused by the aftermarket gauges i have installed.

Which are disconnected...

I am seriously going to throat punch someone...

ask for proof... contact the guage company and ask for specs on current draw for the product.

[PatrickJohnson]

Yep, that's a load of crap. There is no reasonable company that would charge $100 bucks to reassemble the interior, and furthermore if the gauges are disconnected, they have to prove they were ever connected to begin with if they want to deny a warranty repair.

[CTScott]

So, what exactly are they trying to charge $400 for? Did they replace anything or just spend hours yanking apart the interior (looking for those missing electrons)?

[talnlnky]

So, what exactly are they trying to charge $400 for? Did they replace anything or just spend hours yanking apart the interior (looking for those missing electrons)?

sounds like they fixed his problem... but denied the warranty coverage by blaming the aftermarket guages.... probably because they don't know why it went wrong, and want to charge him cause autosales are low this year... and they figure he'll bend over and take it like most people do.

[goku87]

Question/Statement Replies:

ask for proof... contact the guage company and ask for specs on current draw for the product.

still awaiting reply from glowshift.

Yep, that's a load of crap. There is no reasonable company that would charge $100 bucks to reassemble the interior, and furthermore if the gauges are disconnected, they have to prove they were ever connected to begin with if they want to deny a warranty repair.

it's easy to prove they were connected by the stripped wire in the car. however, the particular wires in which they are connected is the key factor here...

So, what exactly are they trying to charge $400 for? Did they replace anything or just spend hours yanking apart the interior (looking for those missing electrons)?

I have no clue what they intended to charge me $400 for. They sure as heck didn't find those missing electrons.

sounds like they fixed his problem... but denied the warranty coverage by blaming the aftermarket guages.... probably because they don't know why it went wrong, and want to charge him cause autosales are low this year... and they figure he'll bend over and take it like most people do.

They didnt even fix the problem
----------------------------------------------------
Situation Update:

After I picked up my car (and paid $0 for anything) I decided to give them the benefit of doubt on my part in the possibility I had left the guages installed. I remember them being "off" since before I deployed, and when I picked my car up, they were hooked up and working well. So me in my curiosity checked the current draw and of course it was nowhere near the 100mA they claimed it was. And just for $#!+s and grins I completely disconnected the guages; guess what? Battery is dead. How convenient.

This was in the concern description box said on my receipt, typos included:

Cust states battery will go dead if it sits for 2 days verfiy concern found 100mA draw when timed out. cust has aftermarket gauges installed, they are wired through the radio and dome light circuit, even unpluged from the radio voltage is backfeeding into body ECU possibly causing permanent damage to ecu and replated ecus. Cust declined any repairs or removal of aftermarket wiring at this time veh still has draw and possible damaged body ECU. None of these repairs are covered under warranty due to aftermarket wiring.

Seriously? Backfeeding voltage? What the hell is that supposed to mean? My yaris can manipulate laws of the physical universe and make electrons go from positive to negative? riiiiiiiiiiight. And how can something wired to the "radio and dome light circuit" possibly hurt the ECU?

I'll check what pins I actually have it hooked up to, but seriously, should I get a frigging lawyer on their ass?

[CTScott]

I think the crack pipe was being passed around in the service bay that day. I would definitely fight it since you paid a significant amount without the car being fixed.

You mentioned that you measured the current draw at <100mA. How did you measure it? Have you actually measured how much current is drawn with the car powered off (using a clamp-on ammeter or pulling the negative battery lead and putting an ammeter between the negative battery terminal and the negative battery cable)?

[goku87]

I think the crack pipe was being passed around in the service bay that day. I would definitely fight it since you paid a significant amount without the car being fixed.

You mentioned that you measured the current draw at <100mA. How did you measure it? Have you actually measured how much current is drawn with the car powered off (using a clamp-on ammeter or pulling the negative battery lead and putting an ammeter between the negative battery terminal and the negative battery cable)?

Luckily I bitched enough so I didn't have to pay when I picked it up. I measured with an in-line ammeter on the ground of all three gauges combined. If I can remember correctly it was somewhere in the ballpark of 5mA. I went to go under the hood today and measure the current draw of the whole car. Guess what?

The hood release latch beneath the dash is GONE!!!!

Seriously, wtf is up with these guys? Now I can't test anything under the hood because their dumb asses are lazy and can't do their job for shit. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

[Altitude]

Luckily I bitched enough so I didn't have to pay when I picked it up. I measured with an in-line ammeter on the ground of all three gauges combined. If I can remember correctly it was somewhere in the ballpark of 5mA. I went to go under the hood today and measure the current draw of the whole car. Guess what?

The hood release latch beneath the dash is GONE!!!!

Seriously, wtf is up with these guys? Now I can't test anything under the hood because their dumb asses are lazy and can't do their job for shit. :mad::mad::mad::mad:

This is why I hate letting anyone do work on my car. They simply don't give a shit.

[goku87]

could someone verify on their yaris the current draw on the battery with car turned off: I'm measuring approx 785mA.

For whatever magical reason, this isn't killing my battery in a few days, but with the guages connected, the extra 90mA will. wtf?

[CTScott]

I measure just over 300mA with the car off.

[goku87]

i wish the dealership wasn't so gay and just fixed my problem without trying to rape my wallet. :mad:

[CTScott]

Do you have an aftermarket stereo system with an amplifier? You definitely have something that is drawing more current than normal with the car off.

[goku87]

I have nothing aftermarket except the guages. That's why I thought at first it was them. But all the gauges together don't draw more than 90mA. They were trying to say that the way I had them hooked up caused damage to the ECU, which is the biggest load of crap I've ever heard. I have them hooked up to the stereo constant 12v, acc power, and ground. Seriously, how could that possibly damage the ECU?

I need to figure out how to prove that the gauges didn't cause ECU damage or they won't fix it under warranty.

[CTScott]

OK. In that case, put your ammeter in line and start pulling fuses, one at a time, until you figure out what circuit the excess draw is on. Pull one, note the change (if any) put it back and pull the next one. Go through all of the under hood ones, the couple in the under dash panel (by the relays) and the load in the way under dash panel.

Another way of measuring individual circuits is to pull a fuse and then use the ammeter as the fuse. That will let you measure the draw of that one circuit.

[goku87]

That is pretty ingenious. That's why you are the ee and im still taking classes online lol.

[CTScott]

The funny thing is that I think as I type. I was 3/4 of the way through the first part and then suddenly the light went on.

[goku87]

some of the fuses i couldn't get to under the hood. more specifically the two red ones that are kinda covered by the headlight. i could get the fuses out, but couldnt get my test leads down into the slots. I'll have to get a couple of paper clips or something tomorrow.

would you be so kind as to join me on my endeavor and measure your current draws so i have some numbers to compare to?

at the moment i only have two numbers:

dome: approx 90mA
ecu-b: approx 170mA <--doesnt seem right

[CTScott]

Same - 88 mA for Dome and 157.5 mA for ECU-B.

This seems correct, as Dome keeps the radio memory alive and ECU-B keeps all of the ECU's alive (ECM, SRS, etc).

[CTScott]

By the way, here's an easier way to get the ammeter on - Pop a fuse and use it. I popped a spare 10A (with a set of clip leads and a battery). The legs are brought out to the tiny holes on top, so you can just touch your lead tips there.

[goku87]

i was thinking that yesterday evening, but it just seems like such a waste of a fuse...

[CTScott]

I pulled about 20 out of my ebay Yaris, so I had plenty to spare. Think of it as a tool, and you won't feel so bad about cooking one.

[goku87]

the one day i finally get some down time to figure this thing out, it rains.





awesome.

[pennyracer]

when my car sits for a week without driving the battery is dead completely no ignition lights or click when key is turned on yes i am running dual amps and other things how do i test the draw at the battery i did not think the newer amps used power when the car is shut off ? am i wrong i run arc audio amps not cheap shit but maybe they are drawing down my power ? i have a optima yellow top now but i still want to track my voltage draw problem i leave town for weeks at a time and store my car in a building and i should not have to leave it on a charger at all just to keep a charge in the battery please help me someone

[CTScott]

when my car sits for a week without driving the battery is dead completely no ignition lights or click when key is turned on yes i am running dual amps and other things how do i test the draw at the battery i did not think the newer amps used power when the car is shut off ? am i wrong i run arc audio amps not cheap shit but maybe they are drawing down my power ? i have a optima yellow top now but i still want to track my voltage draw problem i leave town for weeks at a time and store my car in a building and i should not have to leave it on a charger at all just to keep a charge in the battery please help me someone


If you have a meter that can measure current, you disconnect the negative battery terminal and put one meter lead on the battery post, the other on the terminal (so the meter is in between). The other option is to use a clamp on ammeter, which doesn't require removing the battery terminal.

[pennyracer]

cool thanks for the info