Detroit - Think they'll ever 'get it'?

[Altitude]

:confused:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e99e8514-f234-11dd-9678-0000779fd2ac.html

[kou]

They should have stopped making large vehicles along time ago,you could probaly make three yaris out of one suburban. they also should have brought some of the overseas vehicles to the US awhile ago.

[firemachine69]

The Suburban has it's place. Actually, I plan on acquiring one in the next little while.

[SilverBack]

Yeah they'll get it, when they're FINISHED (which is pretty much NOW). This larger-than-life thinking by the Big-3 has stuck around for decades, so IMO they're not gonna be able to shake their stubborn ways and get on the bandwagon soon enough to survive. Think they would better off if they sold-out completely to the companies that are still dominating right now even during the recession. It's like a very old dog that's no longer good for nothing. Why sit around and watch it suffer? Grab the gun and take him behind the barn already...

And yes, I agree that bigger cars are better for families, but to be honest I can't remember the last time I've seen more just a driver inside an Escalade

[SailDesign]

The Suburban has it's place.

Can you elaborate? I am honestly trying to figure out how the rest of the world survives without such a beast.

[SilverBack]

^THANK YOU!!! :clap:

[TLyttle]

Seconded, SailDesign. After watching GM tell the public what they really need for 60 years, I really don't think anything less than complete obliteration will give them the message. Certainly, the Subhuman only has a place because GM says so.

One doesn't have to spend a lot of time in Europe to realise that there is a Better Way, whether it be public transit, automobiles, multi-seat family vehicles, or recycleables. GM has been spending more time and money building huge bureaucracies that should have been spent building practical vehicles. How many cupholders does a vehicle need?????

[Thirty-Nine]

The Suburban has it's place.

I agree. Towing a boat, ATVs, horse trailers, etc. It's great for towing and bringing several people with you.

[SilverBack]

Seconded, SailDesign. After watching GM tell the public what they really need for 60 years, I really don't think anything less than complete obliteration will give them the message. Certainly, the Subhuman only has a place because GM says so.

One doesn't have to spend a lot of time in Europe to realise that there is a Better Way, whether it be public transit, automobiles, multi-seat family vehicles, or recycleables. GM has been spending more time and money building huge bureaucracies that should have been spent building practical vehicles. How many cupholders does a vehicle need?????

It's funny you mention that. The LB has 7 spaces for cups and bottles, and 3 glove boxes. Yet that doesn't even count as a sliver of what makes the car successful around the world:laugh:. Toyota saw the big picture first and then went back to tackle the details, which is pretty much vice-versa of the Big-3's strategy. ..Too many stupid details, not enough paying attention to the rest of world...:thumbdown::rolleyes:

I agree. Towing a boat, ATVs, horse trailers, etc. It's great for towing and bringing several people with you.

I'm all for using pick-ups and SUVs for heavy-duty towing and hauling, but how many people out there will actually do this? I see nothing but look-alike soccer moms (hot ones too!) out there using their 4-ton road-hogs to haul their big heavy *drum roll please* FRAPPUCCINOS!!

BTW I'm not any way blasting on anyone who needs a high-powered vehicle for actual heavy-duty work:thumbsup:

[firemachine69]

Military agencies.
Police agencies.
Special Security Details.
Need I go on?



And if you think Toyota is any smarter than the big three, you only need to look at the new Venza - and the including stats.

4000lbs and 20 inch wheels is what now?

[SilverBack]

That's just in more recent times. Toyota has always done well with it's smaller cars for ages, but I have to admit it's probably not a good move for them to add another SUV at this time. They're still somewhat doing better than the Big-3 though

[firemachine69]

That's just in more recent times. Toyota has always done well with it's smaller cars for ages, but I have to admit it's probably not a good move for them to add another SUV at this time. They're still somewhat doing better than the Big-3 though

No, it's frankly retarded. Toyota speaks of seeing the writing five years ago on the wall - but they started up production for a new, heavy-ass, uni-frame "suv", with oversized wheels, not to mention the almost 40K price tag... That tells me they were just riding on luck and good fortunes, not good predictions of the future.


Like said, there will be a need for Suburbans in the future (care to guess how many military contractors purchase these?), albeit at a much smaller rate of production than in the past, of course.

[kou]

ok so the military and such can have them but there really is no need for a civilian to be driving around being the only one in the car,if you dont see that as a waste you never will.if it is for work and you have commercial plates that fine otherwise it is a waste of resources.

[supmet]

No, it's frankly retarded. Toyota speaks of seeing the writing five years ago on the wall - but they started up production for a new, heavy-ass, uni-frame "suv", with oversized wheels, not to mention the almost 40K price tag... That tells me they were just riding on luck and good fortunes, not good predictions of the future.


Like said, there will be a need for Suburbans in the future (care to guess how many military contractors purchase these?), albeit at a much smaller rate of production than in the past, of course.

The venza starts at around $25k, is a car(I could see how you're confused by its 63 inch height and 4 inches of ground clearance), and gets about double the mpg of the suburban. And just because toyota makes smart cars doesn't mean they aren't going to cater to american car buyers.

You should just throw away all the good things toyota has done because you don't like their newest car though.(I'll stick with them... something about seeing 50 hondas and toyotas older than 1990 for everyone 1 american car that old really gets to me.

edit: military/armored suburbans aren't suburbans.. They are custom suspension, engines, frames, exhaust, doors, bodies, windows, all shaped to look like a suburban... your burb will last you 100k miles if you're lucky bone stock. Throw 4000 extra pounds of armor and you'll get 5, maybe 10k miles out of the stock parts... But its interesting you bring this up... If it weren't for gov't contracts for ford and GM, do you think they'd still be around? The answer is not a chance in hell.

[yaris-me]

GM may not get it right, but it needs to survive in order to have an economic recovery. This has nothing to do with getting it right. The Obama administration will do what ever it takes to get the economy going. The auto industry holds the key to two million jobs.

[TLyttle]

Along with everyone else, Toyota didn't see the Crash coming, and it is likely that this new SUV was too far down the production like to stop it.

As far as Toyota trucks are concerned, a good friend is waiting for the new Toyota duallie to come out; his name is already on a list of buyers so that he can get rid of his POS (Dodge). Above and beyond its regular maintenance, the POS has cost him another 20 grand for repairs not covered by warranties, and I'm not talking collisions or abuse, just crappy materials/workmanship. If the Big 3 can't even build trucks any more, they become pointless.

As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

[ChinoCharles]

Thread cleaned.

If anyone has a problem with the way this forum is nowadays, you are more than welcome to leave. Nobody is twisting your arm making you sign on and post.

[supmet]

Along with everyone else, Toyota didn't see the Crash coming, and it is likely that this new SUV was too far down the production like to stop it.

As far as Toyota trucks are concerned, a good friend is waiting for the new Toyota duallie to come out; his name is already on a list of buyers so that he can get rid of his POS (Dodge). Above and beyond its regular maintenance, the POS has cost him another 20 grand for repairs not covered by warranties, and I'm not talking collisions or abuse, just crappy materials/workmanship. If the Big 3 can't even build trucks any more, they become pointless.

As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

I'm gonna post briefly on this... Talking about the bailouts(auto and mortgage) severely raises my blood pressure.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Ford_factories
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Toyota_manufacturing_facilities

Most trucks from ford are built in.......... MEXICO
Most cars from toyota are built in.......... AMERICA

Not to mention, if we just let the american car companies die, yes, toyota and honda would be glad to put 2 million americans to work.

American car companies have had every advantage - first on the car scene, harsh tariffs on imports, government contracts, dumb americans buying 7 mpg hummers when gas is 5 bucks a gallon, adjusting EPA regulations to suit their needs - after all that, you still want my tax dollars to save your failing business??

(the funny thing is, none of this is what really gets to me... giving MY money to people who have already proved the only thing they are good for is losing billions of dollars for no good reason is what pisses me off..)

[ChinoCharles]

The Venza was designed and produced in America exclusively.

[yaris-me]

As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

When a job is lost, a new job doesn't magically appear elsewhere. It takes more capital to create a new job than it is to keep an old job going in hopes that the economy recovers. Changes can be made during the recovery, all does not remain the same.

Job loss creates other near by jobs loss'. This is like a domino effect. How would Toyota and others expand to fill that gap? More than likely they would boost production in other countries.

[staypuft]

The Venza was designed and produced in America exclusively.

isnt it replacing the avalon? the avalon was a big car, i guess toyota said might as well made it a wagon

[firemachine69]

isnt it replacing the avalon? the avalon was a big car, i guess toyota said might as well made it a wagon



The Camry grew so big it essentially displaced the Avalon.

[ChinoCharles]

The Avalon was an underbadged Lexus. I'm not sure if the Venza replaced it or not, though.

[GeneW]

:confused:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e99e8514-f234-11dd-9678-0000779fd2ac.html


You're asking the right question of the wrong people - it's not GM and Ford, both of whom make small cars for the EU and Developing world. GM's Daewoo Line is sold in the developing world as the Chevy Joy. Ford's Escort is made in several countries.

The person you want to ask is the American consumer.... the same one who won't pay the equivalent of $25,000 for a Yaris sized car, who is "offended" when a small car passes their SUV and so on. Who thinks that "bigger is better" because it's "armor" that protects them from collision and who measures their worth by the size of their vehicle.

The Suburban and other 4x4 vehicles have enough of a price premium to support the costs of US manufacture. I'll say this again - you cannot make Yaris sized cars in the US. Toyota doesn't do it, neither do any other manufacturer, including Hyundai, which makes the Santa Fe SUV and the Sonata in the southern US in the "most sophisticated automobile plant in the world".

If Hyundai cannot make a Yaris sized car in a highly automated factory that is not vertically integrated (chances are that the bigger drive train components are made off shore), and is in a Right to Work State, how on Earth do you expect GM and the UAW to do it?

Come on! GM has Job Banks, Golden Parachutes, a bloated top heavy management that is heavily drawn from two Business Schools (Harvard and U Penn's Wharton Business school), a militant UAW and is constantly preyed upon by lawyers committing barritry in order to share the wealth.

GM's annual budget for Viagra is over $10 million bucks per year.... Lord only knows that they pay out for their gold plated health insurance program. Everyone, salaried and hourly alike, has a guaranteed benefit pension at GM.

At GM you have a "perfect storm" of complacency, group think and an attitude that they're "too big to fail" coupled with an unsustainable pension, benefit and pay scales. The customer doesn't count at GM, at least not enough for them to change their ways in house.

If Hyundai cannot do it in the US you cannot expect GM to do it, nor Ford nor Cerebus Chrysler.

Gene

[GeneW]

]As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

They'd have to move to where the work is - nobody is going to build an auto plant in a brownfield. Too much aggravation with remediation costs, something I know something about since my first job out of college was in a brownfield. We had to "remediate" a toxin in the soil, arsenic, which had been banned for making glass about ten years before we set up shop. Didn't matter, we owned the property - pay.

Anyone who sets up a factory on a brownfield site, with industrial zoning, and with local government ready with their hands out, has rocks in their heads.

Most new car plants today are set up in rural areas. The taxes are low. The people have simple values, know the value of hard work and are grateful for a job in the factory, or in a support business. They will take care of business.


In contrast these old timers at GM, Ford and Chrysler are not going to take the cut in pay, the cut in benefits and will take along their "You owe me" attitude. The contrast between these guys and a typical Japanese factory worker is like night and day. I've worked in both and know it when I see it.

They sure won't like having to multitask - they might have to run a crane, fix some gear or even (gasp) run a forklilft. They're tradesmen, just ask 'em.

I'm not trying to start a contest and I do work with former UAW, UMW and other former union members. None of them relocated for a job. They will multitask, most of the time anyhow. We have a few with an attitude but they're old enough to have avoided trouble, so far anyhow.

I think expecting these dyed in the wool UAW members to move to a "right to work" state to work for a fraction of their former wages, no guaranteed benefit pension, no gold plated health benefits, and so on, is indulging in some fantasies. Expecting Toyota, Honda or some other offshore car maker to move to Detroit and recreate a GM plant is an even greater stretch of credulity. Ain't gonna happen, even with subsidies.

I worked for a big Japanese manufacturer. They made TVs. Their typical anti-Union campaign was to let former union members have their say. The IBEW didn't get past the gates, ever. Some of the guys would spit on the leaflets passed out by organizers. Mind you, these guys had an awful reputation in the local community towards the end of their run but still, nobody wanted to sign those cards.

Gene

[GeneW]

Someone is going to ask - if Detroit was listening to the customer why didn't they make a bunch of cheap, small fuel efficient cars last summer?

They did, but not in the US.

Also, all car makers are suffering at this time. We're in a recession, at least in the US.

Gene

[GeneralDon7]

I'm curious if any of these high executives at the big three, have thought or considered taking a paycut, since I"m pretty sure they make more in one month, then I do in a year. I read an article, a while ago, about japanese CEO's, taking a PAYCUT, so they wouldnt have to fire workers, and the CEO's actually eating with the employees instead of having a five star lunch. That would be a boss I would think cares more about me(The common workers), then the money going into his own pocket. I may be wrong though.

[yaris-me]

You can argue logic all you want. Obama's administration will do what ever it takes to stimulate the economy. That means saving jobs, no matter what you feel or think about the workers or officers, no matter what you think about the products and no matter what you feel or think about the tax dollars that are being dumped into a black hole. Such is life!:frown:

[ka0sx]

Because printing money has worked in the past?

post ww1 germany did this and it ended in hyper inflation, no mater how you do it, creating jobs doing so only slows the process.

America needs to take(annex) Mexico while the government is in shambles and the drug wars are at their peak.
Taxing the products will bring in large amounts of revenue.
Limit drug and illegal immigrant traffic from further south.
Gain access to PemEx.

Transfer our debt from china and spread it across multiple European countries instead.
This will allow us to sever trade ties with china and allow us to stop the bull shit
created by NAFTA and the trade agreement with china in exchange for them buying our debt(thanks Clinton)
We will be able to then tax the goods from china limiting the potential for corporations to reap profits of their GREED.

Sorry for the HiJack of the thread

back to topic,

ford seems to be getting the idea and is planing several smaller cars to be made available in the states.

GM needs to change tactics or die, not receive free money driving the value of my hard earned money down.

Dodge/chrysler..... see above.

[SeaYa]

I'm gonna post briefly on this... Talking about the bailouts(auto and mortgage) severely raises my blood pressure.

Most trucks from ford are built in.......... MEXICO
Most cars from toyota are built in.......... AMERICA


YES! I live just outside of Detroit, and am finishing up an assignment with an OEM paint manf. Based on what we see, GM is one of the biggest importers of cars in America.

People around are very slow to get it, and are stubborn. I saw a "Out of a Job Yet? Keep Buying Foreign" bumber sticker....it was on a 95 Ford Taurus with two rusted quarter panels, a dented fender, and a bumper that had rope holding part of it on....they apparently haven't bought anything American for the car in the past 14 years:rolleyes:.

Any 'changes' that the Big 3 are promising may be true, but they are not changes to the core of the companies, just a side-dressing offer to make it look like they are trying to change. Sad, because I know a lot of people who work for these guys, and they have smart, talented people, they just aren't being lead and guided to focus on the customer.

PS: still haven't gotten shot after my YarisWorld pride entry! :headbang:

[GeneW]

Obama's administration will do what ever it takes to stimulate the economy.

I must disagree with this statement. I believe that Mr. Obama will spend whatever he can spend. I am totally confident that he will sell as much debt overseas as is possible.

I do not think he will not repeal silly business regulation, hem in regulators who want to grow their empires, free up entrepreneurs to make new businesses and so on, measures that would really grow the economy.

Gene

[GeneW]

America needs to take(annex) Mexico while the government is in shambles and the drug wars are at their peak.
Taxing the products will bring in large amounts of revenue.
Limit drug and illegal immigrant traffic from further south.
Gain access to PemEx.

No, no, no!!

The US has been a pain in the asses of the Mexican people since the 1840s, when we took parts of it to make our southwest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican%E2%80%93American_War

This was followed by interventions all through latin America. The disrespect shown to latin peoples has been marked and continuous.

The US does not need to invade Mexico. The US should leave the Mexican people in peace.

You want to fix the "drug problem" legalize the crap, which takes the profit out of it.

PeMex? The Cantarell field is located in Mexico. It's their oil.

Illegal aliens? Do you understand who hires illegals and why they do it?

Transfer our debt from china and spread it across multiple European countries instead.

The Europeans don't anywhere the amount of savings required to buy US t-bills as the Chinese. We sure cannot "transfer debt". Chinese interests hold that debt and like it. So far anyhow.

This will allow us to sever trade ties with china and allow us to stop the bull shit created by NAFTA and the trade agreement with china in exchange for them buying our debt(thanks Clinton)
We will be able to then tax the goods from china limiting the potential for corporations to reap profits of their GREED.

*sigh*

US business interests like doing business in China. Chinese workers are "well disciplined". They work long hours. They work hard. They don't go on strike.

Do you understand what WTO means? Do you understand that the US is treaty bound to honor WTO agreements?

Be a lot easier to make the US more business friendly. I ain't holding my breath for the next two years regarding THAT.

Gene