Harmful to shift without clutch?

[kenkyd]

The car has been sitting now for 2 weeks, since i had surgery and cant use my left leg. I went out today to try and use my leg and the clutch doesnt hurt as much to push in. Car wouldnt start for 3 minutes but its running now. Considering its quite simple to shift gears up and down without the clutch, is it harmful to do? Id use it to start off and such, but not after.

[m911gt]

I would strongly suggest not shifting without the clutch!

[marcus]

wow ...thats nuts unless you know ur gears inside out..isnt that power shifting..must know what rev to shift if you miss then ull get this nasty gear grind that most people hate to heaR..

[m911gt]

yes, if you can rev-match without any grinding...then go ahead...otherwise, no way

[kenkyd]

yeah, i plan on driving it to where i NEED to go if i do that. Just sitting in the house for a couple weeks now is driving me insane. All the channels and xbox games in the world cant keep me sane until i can go back to work in end of march.

[m911gt]

yes that would be rough, just be really careful if you decide to drive...it could be pretty abusive on your clutch and transmission

[Tamago]

yes that would be rough, just be really careful if you decide to drive...it could be pretty abusive on your clutch and transmission

it's in no way abusive to your clutch, since you'll only be using it to get rolling..

it's not really abusive to your transmission if it's done properly. it's probably BETTER on your synchros to shift without the clutch actually, if done gently.

[Loren]

If you're talented enough to match revs and shift up and down without grinding gears, you won't hurt a thing. The key is "mechanical empathy". Don't force it.

[nemelek]

I used to do it a lot. I had an 88 Toyota truck with 175k and had no problems. I am old now and haven't owned a stick in 3 years.

[twowheels]

In elementary school I had a bus driver who always shifted clutchless. I was amazed and took up the practice myself later in life for some time (though no longer do). My biggest concern would be if you don't actually rev match the transmission to the engine you'll be putting more force on your syncros, though having seen how some people mash the car into gear without matching it's probably not much worse if you're trying not to. I always teach beginners to shift with their fingertips instead of their palm so that they learn how to guide it into gear rather than force it in.

[Phaeton]

I did it all the time with my Kenworth lol. Of course that's a little different.

[Tamago]

In elementary school I had a bus driver who always shifted clutchless. I was amazed and took up the practice myself later in life for some time (though no longer do). My biggest concern would be if you don't actually rev match the transmission to the engine you'll be putting more force on your syncros, though having seen how some people mash the car into gear without matching it's probably not much worse if you're trying not to. I always teach beginners to shift with their fingertips instead of their palm so that they learn how to guide it into gear rather than force it in.


that right there is the key, with or with out clutch.. we're talkin tiny lil gears here people. if you can't revmatch on an up AND DOWN shift, you shouldn't be driving a manual trans IMO

[Castaway]

If you can change shift gears without grinding them, you won't cause any wear on either the clutch or the synchros. I've been doing it since i learned driving farm tractors (no synchros) at age 12.

[cfiimei]

I was a VW (the old air cooled type) freak for years. Had a 66 Microbus, a 62 Karmann Ghia, and a 70 Bug. They were notorious for breaking clutch cables. The starters were strong, though, and I once drove the bus an entire month with no clutch cable. I simply started the thing in first gear, and shifted clutchless - never heard grinding, but the starts were kinda lurchy.:smoking:

[JBIZZ]

In my 1st car, an 88 tercel, my clutch went out. I drove it for a week clutchless, till
I could afford to get it fixed. I would recommend starting out in a higher gear, so you shift less. You gotta time it just right, & at low RPMs, to reduce gear grinding. The funny thing is, in the tercel, I didn't have to put the clutch in to start it, with the clutch broken. I would put it in second or third gear and turn the key. the starter would push the car until it started. It was hilarious, & the starter never broke.

[IllusionX]

I used to do it on my echo and a civic.
I had the 93 civic for a week, and i was able to shift without clutch eyes closed.
for some reasons, i have no idea why i'm still not able to do it with my yaris after 2.5 years and 60k km.

[djgab101]

dude your crazy ...... i wouldnt do it may cause problems for you in the future!!!

[REM]

that right there is the key, with or with out clutch.. we're talkin tiny lil gears here people. if you can't revmatch on an up AND DOWN shift, you shouldn't be driving a manual trans IMO

My Yaris is the first manual car, so maybe I'm a little naive but what is revmatching?

[Loren]

Rev matching is matching the speed of the engine to the speed of the transmission thereby making the synchros have to do less work. When you're clutchless shifting, especially downshifting, it's nearly impossible to do smoothly without doing some rev-matching.

Best example is the first gear downshift that a lot of people think is difficult. It's difficult if you try to do it from too high of a speed and too quickly, but if you slow down to an appropriate speed for first gear and give the synchros time to work, it will slip right in. OR, you can do it quickly and smoothly at a somewhat higher speed (still needs to be a mid-range first gear speed!) by adding a little blip of the throttle as you depress the clutch to zing the revs up, thereby increasing the transmission input shaft speed and allowing the gears to easily mesh.

Works even better if you learn to "double-clutch". That is, to let the clutch back out while you're in neutral so that when you rev the engine, you're REALLY spinning up the transmission input shaft. Then clutching again, slipping the stick into gear and declutching again.

It all takes practice. Lots of practice. Don't force it, just let things happen. When you have the input shaft speed right for the gear you're trying to go into, it will slip right in.

It's a Zen thing.

[ztlonewolf]

that right there is the key, with or with out clutch.. we're talkin tiny lil gears here people. if you can't revmatch on an up AND DOWN shift, you shouldn't be driving a manual trans IMO

the only time you may need to do revmatching on an upshift is if you shifted too slow,anymore than a 1000rpm drop between gears,you would have to rev the engine to match the roadspeed,or not be lazy and use the clutch :biggrin:

[twowheels]

Works even better if you learn to "double-clutch". That is, to let the clutch back out while you're in neutral so that when you rev the engine, you're REALLY spinning up the transmission input shaft. Then clutching again, slipping the stick into gear and declutching again.

Darn... I was going to point out the double clutch, but you beat me to it! :-) I find that the Yaris really does prefer to be double clutched into first, even at slow speeds. Not sure why first is so picky compared to others cars I've driven.

[RagnaCaT]

Double Clutch? Hmmmmm?! This intresting very intresting I'm gonna try it. The first time I heard about it was in Fast and the Furios in the first race Vin Diesel said it " Not Double Clutching like you should" Lol I kinda liked that movie.

[ddongbap]

I do this all the time. Its sorta how a motorcycle tranny works. I mean the nonclutch part.

There are some sequential trannys that require a clutch for first gear, but every gear after that just requires the gear pull.

[Tamago]

Double Clutch? Hmmmmm?! This intresting very intresting I'm gonna try it. The first time I heard about it was in Fast and the Furios in the first race Vin Diesel said it " Not Double Clutching like you should" Lol I kinda liked that movie.

lol double clutching is for tractors and broken transmisssions

[Tamago]

the only time you may need to do revmatching on an upshift is if you shifted too slow,anymore than a 1000rpm drop between gears,you would have to rev the engine to match the roadspeed,or not be lazy and use the clutch :biggrin:

huh? i rev-match/heel-toe every downshift in my car.. it's a nice treat for your driveline to practice this.

[ztlonewolf]

huh? i rev-match/heel-toe every downshift in my car.. it's a nice treat for your driveline to practice this.

revmatching is a must for downshifting,my post only refered to upshifting :wink:

[SeaYa]

OP: I agree 100% that you'll do little / no harm by shifting without the clutch if, like most of the above posts suggest, you rev match carefully. When I first read this, I thought it was rediculous, but then I thought about what was actually happening in the transmission, so, I held my breath and gave it a try from 3rd to 4th. AMAZING! Get the revs right, and the syncs almost guide your throw (more like a left-handed, underhand, one finger toss).

Hope you heal up well!

[TheSilkySmooth]

If your not good at it would will put some x-tra wear on the blockers, and they are usually a soft metal alloy. Purpose bilt pedal setups are great for heel and toe - but I find most passenger cars are not set up well for that. Maybe porsche/vw with the bottom pivot go pedal ...

[marcus]

wait rev matching requires pressing the clutch aint it....so how can you rev match without pressing the clutch..do you just shift on certain rpm??

[TheSilkySmooth]

It all takes practice. Lots of practice. Don't force it, just let things happen. When you have the input shaft speed right for the gear you're trying to go into, it will slip right in.

It's a Zen thing. Ohh, Loren TOOO sexy. I'm HOT now!:redface:

-Sis

[Loren]

Ohh, Loren TOOO sexy. I'm HOT now!:redface:
Do I need to put a parental advisory on such discussions? :)

You should hear me talk about driving smoothly at the limit, using a gentle touch with finesse to stay right on the edge without going past it.

Aren't cars fun?

[Loren]

wait rev matching requires pressing the clutch aint it....so how can you rev match without pressing the clutch..do you just shift on certain rpm??
We've gotten a little off-topic talking about double-clutching.

The revs will pretty much take care of themselves on a clutchless upshift. Just takes patience and a gentle touch.

Where you've got to conciously "match revs" is on a clutchless downshift. You have to blip the throttle to get the revs up PAST where they need to be for the gear you're downshifting to, and then drop into the gear just as you would on an upshift.

[marcus]

cool although i have grinding gear phobia..i get spasm when i hear it..im not even joking.. just curious how it works...

[IllusionX]

i can't shift for shit with the yaris.

anyways, with a 93 civic, i was able to do exactly as loren suggests. I was able to upshift all the way to 5th and onto the highway, and downshift all the gears down to 2nd. (I didn't feel comfortable doing the 1st gear, but oh well!) not a single grinding gear.

There's a little timing to do for when you can pull out of gear without clutch. It has to be done without any pressure on the transmission. ie, not accelerating, nor decelerating.

marcus: it's pretty much impossible to grind gears when shifting without clutch. You cannot pull out of gear when there's pressure on the transmission. And when the rev do not match, the synchro would simply block you from shifting in anyways. When it's open, then the gears will slide in like warm butter.

[twowheels]

You have to blip the throttle ***** to get the revs up PAST where they need to be for the gear you're downshifting to, and then drop into the gear just as you would on an upshift.

***** while in neutral

[TheSilkySmooth]

A lot of people dont know that in a moderm synchromesh transmission, all gears are permanently engaged and you dont grind the gears at all. You are pushing a collar over a dog clutch that locks the idling gear to the mainshaft ; now the power goes down to the layshaft then back up to the final drive gear on the output shaft. Oh there must be a .GIF on the web somewhere ... Oh reverse is another story.

[TheRealEnth]

hmmm... Does any1 know the revs for the yarii?

[Loren]

***** while in neutral
Thanks for the clarification. :)

Damn, I tried to clutchless shift today in the beater Tercel that I bought for my son. As beautifully as that car shifts with the clutch, it really DOES NOT like to clutchless shift. Even on upshifts, it won't do it without a really healthy neutral-rev first. Gonna have to practice that one some more so that I can talk my son through it. I think it's a skill that he needs to learn. (never know when the clutch hydraulics are gonna fail on your beater car!)

[talnlnky]

i did this on my 86 jeep, and on my 08 LB.... i don't know why people would think it is hard. If you get the revs right.. the thing will nearly move the gear itself, you hardly have to guide it. Just do it fast when it goes, don't slowly change gears... otherwise you will grind the gears. A few times I have kinda held onto the stick... not really paying attention and then you hear it make some noise.

Soft shifting like that doesn't seem to be as fuel efficient... you lose a tiny bit of momentum compared to shifting with the clutch which is a slightly faster process.