OMG MY K&N FILTER!!!

[id3379]

Doesn't feel/seem any different, but i wasn't expecting it to.

Anyway, the point of this thread is to see if anyone else has noticed some small performance gains (if any) or any gains in fuel economy.

What's your thoughts on it ? And I paid $50 after tax @ autozone for it.

[Tamago]

congrats on your purchase. keep it clean, a clean filter is a must!

oh and don't waste money on the k&n cleaning kit. use simple-green to wash the filter and oil with a similar oil to the K&N kit

[id3379]

congrats on your purchase. keep it clean, a clean filter is a must!

oh and don't waste money on the k&n cleaning kit. use simple-green to wash the filter and oil with a similar oil to the K&N kit

Thanks for the tip, i got some laying around the house, saved me some $ :thumbsup:

[Arkhangel]

congrats on your purchase. keep it clean, a clean filter is a must!

oh and don't waste money on the k&n cleaning kit. use simple-green to wash the filter and oil with a similar oil to the K&N kit

I havent Cleaned my K&N Yet :frown: what kind of oil would that be exactly

[toad]

I havent Cleaned my K&N Yet :frown: what kind of oil would that be exactly

i'd be curious also to hear what type of oil people use instead? i've had k&n's on my past 2 vehicles and liked them, but hated paying what they charge for their 'recharge' kit. i haven't bought one for my yaris yet because i know you have to keep them clean and oiled to work(and avoid damage to your engine), but i just don't want to keep paying for that overpriced cleaning kit!

[Tamago]

http://www.fastcycleparts.com/showproduct.aspx?variantid=24756&aid=10050

is a good substitute.

any oil recommended for filter oiling, whether foam or fabric, will work.

regular motor oil does not have any "stickiness" to it and will not work.

do not over-oil your filter!

edit: also just read that bar and chain oil (for chainsaws) works if used in small quantities (not recommended for cold-weather applications)

[PetersRedYaris]

...i just don't want to keep paying for that overpriced cleaning kit!

Keep paying for them? One kit last for multiple cleanings, which only need to be done every 50,000 miles for regular street driving...

[Yaribhini]

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a K&N filter for a yaris. It has absolutely zero benefits and it's filtering capability is much, much worse than a paper element so you end up with a dirtier motor/throttle.

[firemachine69]

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a K&N filter for a yaris. It has absolutely zero benefits and it's filtering capability is much, much worse than a paper element so you end up with a dirtier motor/throttle.

Yessir, but don't tell the Yaris fanatics that, how else would K&N make so much money? :wink:

[id3379]

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a K&N filter for a yaris. It has absolutely zero benefits and it's filtering capability is much, much worse than a paper element so you end up with a dirtier motor/throttle.

i've already noticed a tad bit better gas economy comparing results with my SG2, and considering it is lifetime guaranteed', by the time i change my filter twice with the gas ive saved after all those miles it will have paid for itself and more.

[supmet]

When i put the K&N drop in, the yaris felt slightly better/quicker, but not a whole lot. Also seemed smoother on the freeway, its been so long now I can hardly remember though.

As for filtering efficiency, I have a few questions. I checked out a few websites, but can't find any definitive answers. Does anyone have a link to lab results, or measurements of dust and dirt that passed through different types of filters on the same engine? K&N says they filter 99% as much as paper, but i can't imagine 1% extra dust over 200k miles being good. I'd also be interested in seeing some numbers on filtration for cold air intakes, as that might be my next move. But a lot of people seem to think I'd be best off to just put the stock paper back in..

(I've read every viewpoint based on hearsay pertaining to this - that's not what I'm looking for. I need concrete test results of different types of filters(and the crazy guy taking pictures of filters after 500 miles doesn't count :P )

[blacksandiegovitz]

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a K&N filter for a yaris. It has absolutely zero benefits and it's filtering capability is much, much worse than a paper element so you end up with a dirtier motor/throttle.

Um, no ...
K&n filtration/cfm flow is the highest of any aftermarket filter(many winning baja/off-road/track vehicals used k&n filters) . I'm running a k&n drop-in but I hacked my stock air box and flipped it upside down , so the filter is facing up . I also have a vented hood, so its getting air from outside the engine bay , so in my application its works just as good as any sri for 30 bucks . I could see how you dont notice any gains with the filter in stock configuration .

[id3379]

Um, no ...
K&n filtration/cfm flow is the highest of any aftermarket filter(many winning baja/off-road/track vehicals used k&n filters) . I'm running a k&n drop-in but I hacked my stock air box and flipped it upside down , so the filter is facing up . I also have a vented hood, so its getting air from outside the engine bay , so in my application its works just as good as any sri for 30 bucks . I could see how you dont notice any gains with the filter in stock configuration .

wow that's a interesting idea, can you take pics of your set up ?

[blacksandiegovitz]

Here ya go bro
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12030&highlight=engine+cover

[id3379]

Here ya go bro
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=12030&highlight=engine+cover

thanks buddy, thats a creative set up, where did you sang your sexi CF valve cover ? :O

*EDIT: sorry, read your other post and saw you got it from garm

[whiteghetto]

I have a hi flow filter with a cut airbox and have noticed better MPG and higher RPM performance

[1stToyota]

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a K&N filter for a yaris. It has absolutely zero benefits and it's filtering capability is much, much worse than a paper element so you end up with a dirtier motor/throttle.

One problem with the increased airflow, doesn't the MAF meter just readjust for it?

And if I had one I'd be worried about either using too much oil or not enough. I've been told that they can't harm your MAF but I know that's not always so. A Toyota Avalon owner had a brand new K&N dropin that must have been over-oiled enough that it set a code and couldn't get much over 50% calculated engine load at WOT, until I cleaned the MAF and switched to a WIX filter...code didn't come back and saw well over 80% calculated engine load at WOT on my scanner's datastream.

Maybe someday GreenFilter will come out with a P/N for our Yaris. Similar to a K&N, just a little different approach.

[ChinoCharles]

Dogging on K&N is a popular thing to do because they're so big, but here in Ohio we have these things called race tracks and guess what filters they use on the cars? :laugh: K&N's are tried and tested. I don't run one, but I wouldn't hesitate to.

Oh, and they stand up extremely well to wear and tear. My friend has one that he has been running for 150,000 miles and it looks to be in better shape than my generic, which I've had about 25% as long.

[metalshark]

I've been running K&Ns on the big V-8s for years. I clean them once a year and re-oil. On my truck its a whopping 14" diameter by 6" tall so I never have a measurable restriction even when its caked on. Typically these types of filters do a better job of cleaning the air after they are dirty up to a point. I've had the big trunicated cone type on a CAI inside the left front filter for one year now. Its been in there for 20,000 miles so its time.

[Qmobile]

yeah and I like my TRD one witch I think is the same thing as a K&N right? Ever since I put it in I noticed a tad more umph! not much though

[Tamago]

yeah and I like my TRD one witch I think is the same thing as a K&N right? Ever since I put it in I noticed a tad more umph! not much though


here's the umph curve


miniscule------------------------tad----------------------VTEC!! MMMMMMMMMBAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

[bzinn 1]

be careful with the oil,it can gunk up the MAF really quick and give you a CEL.

[Doug007]

Keep paying for them? One kit last for multiple cleanings, which only need to be done every 50,000 miles for regular street driving...

+ 1...I have K&N's in my Sequoia, TSX and Yaris. I've made the cleaner kit last several years. I agree on being cautious with over-oiling.

In terms of performance gains, it's hard to tell. I do exceed the EPA mileage on all three cars.

[1stToyota]

be careful with the oil,it can gunk up the MAF really quick and give you a CEL.

And that intial 1hp at the wheels (until the PCM adjusts for the extra airflow that it now sees) that you think you're feeling because you're driving more aggressive to hear the extra noise being made under the hood can quickly turn into about a 20hp loss at the wheels when the MAF gets gunked enough to set a code.

[thebarber]

And that intial 1hp at the wheels (until the PCM adjusts for the extra airflow that it now sees) that you think you're feeling because you're driving more aggressive to hear the extra noise being made under the hood can quickly turn into about a 20hp loss at the wheels when the MAF gets gunked enough to set a code.

only way it gunks up the maf is if its waaay over oiled. i had k&n oiled filter on my xrs and never had a problem w/ an oiled maf even running to 8350rpm...

its a common misconception that an oiled filter with screw up your maf....its gross user error to have that happen...

as for the hp increase...im sure its almost negligible in the yaris....but the ecu doesnt compensate in the way youre describing, otherwise you would never feel any power increase for any mods done on a stock ecu...and thats just not the case.

how much are those stock paper filters? for me, id rather spend the $50 on 1 k&n and never have to spend money on cruddy, restrictive paper filters

[1stToyota]

only way it gunks up the maf is if its waaay over oiled. i had k&n oiled filter on my xrs and never had a problem w/ an oiled maf even running to 8350rpm...

its a common misconception that an oiled filter with screw up your maf....its gross user error to have that happen...

as for the hp increase...im sure its almost negligible in the yaris....but the ecu doesnt compensate in the way youre describing, otherwise you would never feel any power increase for any mods done on a stock ecu...and thats just not the case.

how much are those stock paper filters? for me, id rather spend the $50 on 1 k&n and never have to spend money on cruddy, restrictive paper filters

HP gains come from real mods, followed by a dyno tune. Try putting a cam, heads and LTs on a LS-1 motor w/o a tune. You'll be lucky if you can back down the drive until it's tuned, and then you'll see 100 or so extra hp at the wheels. And the PCM works exactly like I said...the MAF measures AIRFLOW, that's why a car will still stay running even when the paper element can be completely clogged with dust, trash, dragonfly legs, bird feathers, etc...

And it kinda depends on the location of the MAF, if it's real close to the airbox better chance of catching non-100% air across its heated wires. I'd say it's not a misconception when TSBs are issued on oiled filters.

K&N (drop-ins) is great for saving money but not for HP gains, maybe 1 or 2 hp at the wheels of most applications, at best. Probably saw better gains back when they first came out and was installed in bigblocks with hi-rise manifolds and dbl-pumpers, but now cars are getting too smart for minor mods w/o reflashes.

[Giobatera]

The bottom line is simple to understand. As "thebarber" said, it doesn't take much to figure this out. WHY spend $ on cheap quality paper filters every couple months, if you can just get something that will less you a eternity for less then $50.00 bucks? Even IF you don't see any significant changes as some of you described previously, just the fact the you don't have to keep buying these filters over and over again, pays for itself.
Now, use your best judgement!

[1stToyota]

In a perfect world no one will ever over-oil their filter, and if they do they'll always be smart enough to clean the MAF and have a code reader to see the MAF code and not have to pay a mechanic to read the code and clean the meter at a pricely sum, if the mechanic doesn't decide to make a MAF sale instead of just cleaning it. 50$ investments can get quite expensive.

had to be a need (http://www.crcindustries.com/auto/content/prod_detail.aspx?S=Y&PN=05110)

...and paper filters are good for 15k miles, a year or more for most, not every 2 months

[thebarber]

ya, i agree....no gains even on the butt-dyno...i have one in the yaris and it still chokes past 5500 or 6000rpm - - i just bought it because i hate paying a toyota tech to install new paper filters when i can run w/ a k&n and clean it myself...

gains would be easier to get on larger displacement engines too....though i talked my dad into a k&n filter on his 3.8L (or is it 3.9?) v6 gmc sierra (2006, iirc) and i couldnt really feel a difference...but he says he gets a couple more mpg now...

[anonymous user]

I have a K&N airhog on my wrx for the past 5 years with no ill-effects. Like ChinoCharles stated, it's a race car, so whatever.
I got a Blitz LM intake on my yaris, and it seems to do the trick just fine. If I had'nt got it, I'd be rocking a K&N filter.
You haters are overanalyzing the situation. It's not like were talking about crank pulleys that throw off your harmonic balancer. They make balanced ones for race cars, but they cost 4x as much. IT is safer, as you have much more invested in the motor should it crap on you.

[1stToyota]

ya, i agree....no gains even on the butt-dyno...i have one in the yaris and it still chokes past 5500 or 6000rpm - - i just bought it because i hate paying a toyota tech to install new paper filters when i can run w/ a k&n and clean it myself...

gains would be easier to get on larger displacement engines too....though i talked my dad into a k&n filter on his 3.8L (or is it 3.9?) v6 gmc sierra (2006, iirc) and i couldnt really feel a difference...but he says he gets a couple more mpg now...

Did it always choke past 5,500 rpms? Giving K&N their due credit, if you're going to notice an improvement that's where the car should feel better than it did before with the paper element.

At the risk of looking like a jerk :redface: it might be worth about 10 minutes of your time, a q-tip and some rubbing alcohol (or the CRC cleaner), because loss of top-end power sometime means dirty MAF. All you need is a small phillips screwdriver to remove the 2 screws. No harder to do then replacing the air filter. Might be worth giving it a try to see if that improves the top-end acceleration.

[1stToyota]

I have a K&N airhog on my wrx for the past 5 years with no ill-effects. Like ChinoCharles stated, it's a race car, so whatever.
I got a Blitz LM intake on my yaris, and it seems to do the trick just fine. If I had'nt got it, I'd be rocking a K&N filter.
You haters are overanalyzing the situation. It's not like were talking about crank pulleys that throw off your harmonic balancer. They make balanced ones for race cars, but they cost 4x as much. IT is safer, as you have much more invested in the motor should it crap on you.

I'm not hating K&N, just saying that MAFs get dirty enough to need cleaning, even when someone isn't using oiled elements, so going oiled just increases the risk. And I know because most of the tuneups that I do the MAF meter (w/ paper filter installed) is a lot nastier than the iridium and platinum plugs that I pull out with over 100k miles on them.

[thebarber]

i found in a stock yaris the power just isnt there to redline...maybe 6000rpm is more accurate....maf might need cleaning too at this point....but i figure ill wait till spring....

i find with a proper intake the power runs to redline....

[anonymous user]

I'm not hating K&N, just saying that MAFs get dirty enough to need cleaning, even when someone isn't using oiled elements, so going oiled just increases the risk. And I know because most of the tuneups that I do the MAF meter (w/ paper filter installed) is a lot nastier than the iridium and platinum plugs that I pull out with over 100k miles on them.
I wasn't singling you out specifically, but i agree with your points. :wink:
I've never had a problem with the maf getting clogged up with oil, but have had carbon buildup problems with the IAT sensor on my wrx, and also water coming in the fenderwell clogging my filter after like 90 straight days of rediculous rainstorms.

[id3379]

K&N Drop in Filter FTW!

[Yaribhini]

Interesting that almost everybody missed the point that I tried to make and that is not that the K&N flows less than paper media, it is that it does so at the cost of filtration. A K&N let's more in which constitutes a dirtier motor and throttle body. I'd love to hear the arguments for needing more airflow for this 100hp air pump. Please don't kid yourself into thinking that the K&N is giving you better results. The only think that it's doing is making your motor and throttle dirtier.

Chino,
I assume you have your Yaris on the track often? That K&N filter must have you blowing by all the Porsche's and BMW's!?

C'mon guys, stock paper media is where it's at with this Yaris. That's a "no brainer."

[1stToyota]

Interesting that almost everybody missed the point that I tried to make and that is not that the K&N flows less than paper media, it is that it does so at the cost of filtration. A K&N let's more in which constitutes a dirtier motor and throttle body. I'd love to hear the arguments for needing more airflow for this 100hp air pump. Please don't kid yourself into thinking that the K&N is giving you better results. The only think that it's doing is making your motor and throttle dirtier.

Chino,
I assume you have your Yaris on the track often? That K&N filter must have you blowing by all the Porsche's and BMW's!?

C'mon guys, stock paper media is where it's at with this Yaris. That's a "no brainer."

Is that what the stock Denso filter is made out of? I thought it was a recycled egg carton.:wink:

It was too wierd looking for me so I went with the Beck/Arnley paper filter and got impressed, real quick! :redface:

[jaserhunter]

if K&N is sooo bad for your car then why do so many people still buy them? and are you guys really fighting over this.



come on..... really cause everyone knows that


K&N is the best lol :tongue:

[ChinoCharles]

Chino,
I assume you have your Yaris on the track often? That K&N filter must have you blowing by all the Porsche's and BMW's!?

No, but my argument is that if they work on 600+ HP drag cars, I think they're good enough for my econobox.

Hey, don't listen. Go spend 20 bucks on a paper filter once every 6 months or a year. I'll still have my K&N in 10.

If you say K&N filters let more dirt in, you're just flat out wrong. You're arguing an invalid point. The world is flat, too, right? Come on now. It is an oiled filter. It operates on different principles, but the end result is simple.

And another thing... (:laugh:) every K&N filter you'll ever buy is going to increase the surface area of the filter element over stock. HELLO? Should I keep going?

[ChinoCharles]

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter_testing.htm

^^ The shut up button.

AND I QUOTE


We are aware of the “urban myth” (K&N News Story (http://www.knfilters.com/news/news.aspx?ID=422)) created by a few dealerships that a vehicle's MAF sensor can be contaminated by K&N filter oil. No evidence has ever been provided to support this “myth” and three years of diagnostic testing by K&N has shown that not only is this allegation not real, it is not even possible. In our opinion, it is an excuse for a dealership and/or the vehicle manufacturer to avoid a legitimate warranty repair. In the last 4 years, we have sold over 10,000,000 lifetime air filters and received only a few hundred calls from consumers who are having dealership or service provider challenges. We believe that Dealership's or service provider's real incentive may be to discourage the use of reusable products so they can sell disposable products over and over. In order to provide consumers with added comfort that they will not be placed in a bad position by an improper warranty denial, we offer our Consumer Protection Pledge (http://www.knfilters.com/MAF/massairpledge.htm).


Pop quiz: What element of the Yaris's MAF could POSSIBLY get dirty enough to cause issues?

[PetersRedYaris]

Interesting that almost everybody missed the point that I tried to make and that is not that the K&N flows less than paper media, it is that it does so at the cost of filtration. A K&N let's more in which constitutes a dirtier motor and throttle body. I'd love to hear the arguments for needing more airflow for this 100hp air pump. Please don't kid yourself into thinking that the K&N is giving you better results. The only think that it's doing is making your motor and throttle dirtier.

You are actually wrong... Paper filters let very fine dust right through that coats the inside of the intake tube and can easily be seen when replacing the filter. An oiled media on the other hand catches all that fine dust and traps it. The inside of the intake tube on my Tacoma looked like it was removed from a brand new truck, and that was after 50,000 miles without cleaning the K&N. Trust me, they work, even in harsh conditions...

As for the MAF, I have personally over oiled a K&N filter and caused a CEL. But cleaning the MAF is SIMPLE (using CRC MAF cleaner, don't EVER touch the element with a q-tip) and disconnecting the battery resets the light. No harm done.

Compared to a stock paper filter, K&N's are better in every way...

[ddongbap]

Since Toyota would have filters that'll damage their engines in the long run. Or maybe fine dust DOESN'T MATTER?

[firebird1999us]

Keep paying for them? One kit last for multiple cleanings, which only need to be done every 50,000 miles for regular street driving...

I've had my cleaning kit for like 10+ years and have cleaned filters like 10 times with it...I've got like half a container left of the cleaner and oil too:iono:

[ddongbap]

http://www.knfilters.com/air_filter_testing.htm

^^ The shut up button.

AND I QUOTE



Pop quiz: What element of the Yaris's MAF could POSSIBLY get dirty enough to cause issues?Not that I'm trying to disprove this or anything, then what causes brand new MAFs to fail?

[1stToyota]

[URL]

Pop quiz: What element of the Yaris's MAF could POSSIBLY get dirty enough to cause issues?

You've never looked at one? It's not a hollow tube. Noticed the wire harness that plugs into it?

[MUSKOKA800]

I've had great success with K&N's over the years with no MAF issues. Here's my process;
Remove K&N drop-in
Re-install original OEM filter (which was nearly new when initially removed)
Remove any litter (bugs etc) from the dirty side with a soft brush.
Using K&N cleaner from kit, thoughtly soak and back-flush the K&N filter with warm tap water.
Shake off excess water and air dry overnight.
Next day (when 100% dry), spray both sides liberally with K&N filter oil ensuring that all pleats are moistened.
Lay filter on paper towelling for a couple hours to drain any surplus oil.
Wipe excess oil from filter frame and re-install in stock airbox.

The K&N service kit suggests cleaning be done at 50,000 to 100,000 mile intervals (for on-road use).
I do so annually which is approximately 25,000 kilometers (~15,500 miles)
I recently cleaned the filter after 27,000 kl. in my Yaris Sedan. It was much cleaner that past K&N's I've used which were cone types on K&N intake systems (Turbo-Talon, 5.0 Mustang). Could be that 1.5 hp doesn't draw the same volume of air as 200+ hp plus the Yaris filter has been protected inside the airbox with dirt only being drawn in from the bottom, whereas the cone filter are exposed to all dirt flying about the engine compartment, not just that pulled up to it by engine vacuum.

[1stToyota]

As for the MAF, I have personally over oiled a K&N filter and caused a CEL. But cleaning the MAF is SIMPLE (using CRC MAF cleaner, don't EVER touch the element with a q-tip) and disconnecting the battery resets the light. No harm done.

It's an approved cleaning method on Identifix, unless someone isn't born with dexterity and nerve endings, and is real sloppy.

Compared to a stock paper filter, K&N's are better in every way...

Paper doesn't invite gunk buildup on the MAF quite as well, causing a 10-20hp loss at the wheels instead of about 1hp gain at the wheels, if you're lucky.

[1stToyota]

No, but my argument is that if they work on 600+ HP drag cars, I think they're good enough for my econobox.

Hey, don't listen. Go spend 20 bucks on a paper filter once every 6 months or a year. I'll still have my K&N in 10.

If you say K&N filters let more dirt in, you're just flat out wrong. You're arguing an invalid point. The world is flat, too, right? Come on now. It is an oiled filter. It operates on different principles, but the end result is simple.

And another thing... (:laugh:) every K&N filter you'll ever buy is going to increase the surface area of the filter element over stock. HELLO? Should I keep going?

I've never ran codes on a 600+ HP drag car :smoking:

Sounds like you pulled the trigger on a K&N filter since the 24th! :w00t:

[ChinoCharles]

Pop quiz: What element of the Yaris's MAF could POSSIBLY get dirty enough to cause issues?

A: The mirror!

Yarii have a Karman Vortex-style MAF. It works via a mirror located in the stalk of the sensor. Air is redirected up the stalk and against a tiny little mirror, and the oscillations of that mirror are measured via a photoreceiver that receives LED light that is reflected off the mirror.

SO, you guys are telling me that oil from a filter is going to make it all the way up the stalk of the MAF, contaminate it, and then the filter is going to let in enough dirt (which is also magically going to take a trip up the stalk of the sensor) and ruin it, too?

No, it won't. That is why Toyota uses these MAF's and have for decades. They are reliable. That is to say nothing of the fact that properly installed oiled filters do nothing to air flow sensors in the first place.

You guys are arguing urban legend. It comes up here about once a year, and it gets shot down every single time.

[Tamago]

:insert beating the dead horse .gif here:

[ChinoCharles]

Not that I'm trying to disprove this or anything, then what causes brand new MAFs to fail?

Poor design. MAF circuit boards are sealed w/ silicon, and they are connected directly to the underlying hardware. Engine heat and general wear and tear can cause the plastics of a MAF sensor to degrade and allow some of that silicon to coat the thermistors and other good bits. This is usually the cause of "dirty" sensors... it actually comes from the sensor itself.

[1stToyota]

Pop quiz: What element of the Yaris's MAF could POSSIBLY get dirty enough to cause issues?

A: The mirror!

Yarii have a Karman Vortex-style MAF. It works via a mirror located in the stalk of the sensor. Air is redirected up the stalk and against a tiny little mirror, and the oscillations of that mirror are measured via a photoreceiver that receives LED light that is reflected off the mirror.

SO, you guys are telling me that oil from a filter is going to make it all the way up the stalk of the MAF, contaminate it, and then the filter is going to let in enough dirt (which is also magically going to take a trip up the stalk of the sensor) and ruin it, too?

No, it won't. That is why Toyota uses these MAF's and have for decades. They are reliable. That is to say nothing of the fact that properly installed oiled filters do nothing to air flow sensors in the first place.

You guys are arguing urban legend. It comes up here about once a year, and it gets shot down every single time.


Thanks. I'll look for one of those at the next StarTrek convention. :wink:

I just pulled mine out, it's not as fangled as you make it sound. Look at it. Airflow is directed straight up into the sensor, across the 2 wires that MEASURE the AIRFLOW, passes on thru the sensor and down into the main airflow to the throttle body.

And the main thing that needs to be remembered is that it's not downstream a foot or two, it sits directly above the filter, mounted right on the airbox.

[ChinoCharles]

Its the simplest air flow meter that I know of.

[Tamago]

Poor design. MAF circuit boards are sealed w/ silicon, and they are connected directly to the underlying hardware. Engine heat and general wear and tear can cause the plastics of a MAF sensor to degrade and allow some of that silicon to coat the thermistors and other good bits. This is usually the cause of "dirty" sensors... it actually comes from the sensor itself.

they also do not react very well to voltage destabilization. lots of improper wiring or a loud sound system will kill a MAF pretty quickly. i saw at least 3 MAF's replaced in a few months while at toyota, all on cars with ghetto-rigged wiring

[1stToyota]

Its the simplest air flow meter that I know of.

Keyword: air flow ...not a lazer light show held at the hall of mirrors. :biggrin:

[ChinoCharles]

Keep trying to take the focus off the fact that you vehemently argued the world was flat for most of this thread. :laugh:

With that, I'm out. -drops mic-

[33OH]

had a brand new K&N dropin that must have been over-oiled enough that it set a code and couldn't get much over 50% calculated engine load at WOT, until I cleaned the MAF and switched to a WIX filter...code didn't come back and saw well over 80% calculated engine load at WOT on my scanner's datastream.

You're not supposed to use ALL of the oil. :laugh:

[1stToyota]

You're not supposed to use ALL of the oil. :laugh:

It was a customer that pulled the filter right out of the box and straight into the airbox of his Avalon. He didn't add adrop of oil that wasn't already there.

[33OH]

They don't send you pre-oiled filters? When I bought my K&N it came dry, with a bottle of oil with it.

https://www.kuryakyn.com/Kimages/item/Large/85-1.jpg

[1stToyota]

Keep trying to take the focus off the fact that you vehemently argued the world was flat for most of this thread. :laugh:

With that, I'm out. -drops mic-

All you had to do is actually LOOK at the MAF meter to see how well the air flow is directed straight across the wires that measure the air flow.

[Tamago]

Keyword: air flow ...not a lazer light show held at the hall of mirrors. :biggrin:

so then since you're the expert, explain how the sensor measures air flow

[1stToyota]

so then since you're the expert, explain how the sensor measures air flow

The heated wires measure the air flow entering the motor, PCM measures their frequency. Mirrors SEEING invisible air is a new one on me.

[ChinoCharles]

WRONG, try again.

[Tamago]

The heated wires measure the air flow entering the motor, PCM measures their frequency. Mirrors SEEING invisible air is a new one on me.

you're thinking ford hotwire here

you're wrong

[1stToyota]

WRONG, try again.

Tell that to the Yaris owner here that recently asked what was wrong with his Yaris because it's down on power. Most posters jumped in and guess dirty meter. Guess what? Poster stated that he cleaned MAF and now everything is back as should be.

I wonder what he cleaned? Mirrors and lazer beams? No. Dirty wires. :)

[1stToyota]

you're thinking ford hotwire here

you're wrong

Wrong. Talking about EXPOSED wires.

[ChinoCharles]

Wires don't measure flow on the Yaris, they measure air temperature.

OK, seriously, I'm done. LOL no point in arguing with someone who knows all the wrong answers.

[Tamago]

and you let this fuckery continue but lock up a poll that really was just a little joke..


mod power!!

[1stToyota]

Wires don't measure flow on the Yaris, they measure air temperature.

OK, seriously, I'm done. LOL no point in arguing with someone who knows all the wrong answers.

You do realize that the sensor might serve two functions? Wires in the air flow path, up in the sensor, and a reddish blob hanging down in a more direct air flow path...

I need to hear more about those jiggling mirrors that are no where to be found, that send lazer beams to photo receivers.

[Yaribhini]

Ignorance is bliss I guess. I mean, why not believe everything that you read? Just in general, here is one example of many done by Jim Conforti testing both filtration and flow. But as a matter of conversation prior to the Conforti clip let my just say that
stock is good. K&N will flow a BIT more when freshly cleaned up but will also clog quickly, reducing flow.

Cotton doesn't filter as well as paper filter media and allows silicium in the engine's oil. There are multiple tests and studies that have shown this and it plainly points to how much BS is rampant in the world of aftermarket performance parts, and how inflated the claims given can be. Think for a moment the claims you read about HP gains from this or that modification and it's also a reminder of how we "enthusiasts" have a tendency to assume ANYTHING non-stock is better performance wise than whatever the OEM manufacterer provided. Clearly that is not always true.

As mentioned there a lot of independant tests that have been done but here is one from BMW tuner Jim Conforti.

Jim Conforti (AKA the Land Shark) did some testing:

This was a scientific test, not one done by filter manufacturer X to show that their filters are better than manufacturer Y. The test results are pretty irrefutable as the test lab tests and designs filters where "screw ups" are absolutely NOT allowable.

A scientific test was done on TEST filters where air was loaded with ACCTD (some standardized "test dust" called AC Coarse Test Dust) and sucked through the TEST filter then through an analysis membrane. From the Quantity of dust injected and the amount that gets through the TEST filter and is then captured on the analysis membrane we can calculate the efficiency of the TEST filter in Question.

BMW Stock Filter, Eff. Area of Media: 8.4 sq ft.
K&N Replacement, Eff. Area of Media: 1.6 sq ft.

The filters are the SAME size. They both fit in the STOCK BMW M3 airbox. The difference is that the STOCK filter has 65 pleats 1.5" deep and the K&N only 29 pleats each 0.75" deep.

Now, remember this ratio: " 5.25:1". It's the ratio of the AREA of STOCK to K&N. It's very important and will come into play later.

The STOCK filter efficiency started at 93.4% at 0 loading and increased to 99.2% efficiency as the loading increased to a max tested of 38.8 gm/sq ft of dust.

The K&N filter efficiency started at 85.2% at 0 loading and increased to 98.1% at the max tested loading of 41.38 gm/sq ft.

Now, I hear you. "Jim, that's only a FEW PERCENT". But is it?

Let's look. If we had 100 grams of dust on a new BMW filter we would let through a total of 6.6 grams of dust in. If we used the new K&N filter we get 14.8 grams of dust. That's 224% (TWO HUNDRED TWENTY FOUR PERCENT!!) more dust ingested initially, stock vs. "free flow" and this ratio is pretty much held. Somewhere between 200-300% more dirt gets "ingested" anywhere across loading equivalence. The more INTERESTING thing is when you look at what happens to the DP or Differential Pressure at a constant airflow as you dirty both filters equally with time.

The test used a rate of 75gr of dust per 20 min. Here's where the AREA difference comes MAJORLY into play. See, even though the BMW filter flows a bit less at the SAME loading, it also LOADS UP 5.25 times SLOWER due to it's LARGER effective area. So what happens is that the K&N initially flows better, but as the dirt continues coming in, the K&N eventually flows WORSE while still letting MORE dirt in.

Now, does any of this additional dirt cause problems? I dunno. I suppose we could have a few people do some independent oil analyses on different motors using both K&Ns and Stock filters. Get enough of them, and you'd have a good statistical basis. For me though, it's simple: More DIRT = BAD.

The additional short-term airflow might makes sense on a track car. IMHO, it doesn't for the street.

-- Jim Conforti

One of many examples.

[ChinoCharles]

and you let this fuckery continue but lock up a poll that really was just a little joke..


mod power!!

LOL. Two facets of this job...

[1] Don't let people spread misinformation. (This thread)
[2] Don't let Tamago belittle everyone else on the forums. (Your thread)

:wink:

[Tamago]

LOL. Two facets of this job...

[1] Don't let people spread misinformation. (This thread)
[2] Don't let Tamago belittle everyone else on the forums. (Your thread)

:wink:

it would be self belittlement if someone were to click that choice...

i left it up to the voter which they'd choose!

and clearly it was a joke.. what, did Garm complain? he's not even awake yet

[ChinoCharles]

No, Garm didn't complain. Nobody did, I was just using my better judgement. Someone would have.

[Tamago]

good job, guessing what people are gonna do ;)

[ChinoCharles]

I thought so. :smile:

[mikenacarato]

oooh jim conforti...the producer of the chip that blew my bmws engine a few years back. i dont take what he says with a grain of salt.

k&n will out perform, out flow, and out filter any stock filter, any day...period. end of story.

1sttoyota is wrong on the MAF type...chino is right.
yaribhini is always wrong
k&n is right
jim conforti is stupid
britney spears is stupid
tamago is a belittler
i can haz cheeseburger?

so..in conclusion..

thread failure.

lets dance!

[Tamago]

oooh jim conforti...the producer of the chip that blew my bmws engine a few years back. i dont take what he says with a grain of salt.

k&n will out perform, out flow, and out filter any stock filter, any day...period. end of story.

1sttoyota is wrong on the MAF type...chino is right.
yaribhini is always wrong
k&n is right
jim conforti is stupid
britney spears is stupid
tamago is a belittler
i can haz cheeseburger?

so..in conclusion..

thread failure.

lets dance!

.........................and the thread goes on........................

[mikenacarato]

hey, at least i was ibftl right? thats what counts. ;)

[1stToyota]

oooh jim conforti...the producer of the chip that blew my bmws engine a few years back. i dont take what he says with a grain of salt.

k&n will out perform, out flow, and out filter any stock filter, any day...period. end of story.

1sttoyota is wrong on the MAF type...chino is right.
yaribhini is always wrong
k&n is right
jim conforti is stupid
britney spears is stupid
tamago is a belittler
i can haz cheeseburger?

so..in conclusion..

thread failure.

lets dance!

Maybe I am wrong on the type, but I still see 2 exposed wires that can easily get contaminated. And what are the wires for? They look exactly like the heated wires that I've always seen that are held at a certain temp and then are altered by the amount of airflow that crosses them. Why are they there if it's a Karman Vortex Air Flow Sensor? :iono:

And the air charge sensor is incorporated in the MAF, yes?

[mikenacarato]

heck who knows, who cares. the filter works in the yaris as proven by people so lets leave it at that. this thread is going nowhere fast and taking a lot of you with it. who cares about 1hp or .5-1 mpg. that would be a factor of temperature in the air and maybe you didnt hit the pedal so much that gas tank. its all the margin of error.

[eTiMaGo]

agreed, I feel sorry for this dead horse...