Thinking about a new sound System

[Arkhangel]

Well i got bored and went to the MTX (http://www.mtx.com/index2.cfm)

Tell me what you think, i may be daydreaming of this now but little by little ill get it :evil:

http://reviews.cnet.com/sc/31426979-2-200-0.gif
Front Speakers Thunder Axe Separates TX6001 (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/speakers/separates.cfm)

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/414V7SASA4L._SL500_AA280_.jpg
Rear Speakers Thunder Dome-Axial TDX6903 (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/speakers/dome_axials.cfm)

http://i-m.com.ua/pic/m/mtx.t751044.gif
Subs x 2 Thunder7510-44 (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/subwoofers/thunder7500.cfm)

http://shopper.cnet.com/sc/31477958-2-200-0.gif
Front Stage Amp Thunder TA7804 (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/amplifiers/thunder7804.cfm)

http://reviews.cnet.com/sc/31477409-2-200-0.gif
Sub Amp Thunder TA7801 (http://www.mtx.com/caraudio/products/amplifiers/thunder7801.cfm)

Im still considering a double din touchscreen or even a carpc :thumbup::drool:( i can make them)
maybe something like this
http://i2.iofferphoto.com/img/item/768/501/71/d6f7_1.JPG
as i said just a wish list (for now)

What you guys things?

[ChinoCharles]

I say go for it. I'm a big believe in getting all your parts from one source. Good audio companies design their components to sound good together.

[Spades]

well, i run MTX subs in my car. they hit hard, but lack clarity and definition. if you want punch, the relabled audiovox subs do the trick, if you are after sound quality, i would go with a differant set up. i have never been a big fan of MTX components, because for a few bucks more you can get infinity stuff, and it blows the MTX stuff away.

I dunno, I mean, its true, companies design their sound systems to work well together, but, they all have flaws, so running just one brand, you will often get the inherant flaws they have.

for example, while I love infinity component speakers, I do not like their subs. their subs dont have enough punch for me. I heard someones car at the local stereo shop, it had 6 inifnity referance 10's....my two MTX 8000's had the same percivable volume. they lacked the clarity, but, they had the same "punch".

i suppose this is why my car is a hodge podge of differant audio brands. it may not be fanboy cool, but it sounds nice :)

[sqcomp]

If you can't get those MTX component tweets to scream...you're doing something wrong.

As for the subs... *meh* ...the enclosure and install is 90% of the fight. If you can't get them to sound right, you're not a smart person.

Give me whatever brand woofer, I could care less. It WILL sound good after I'm done installing it.

[Arkhangel]

Im currently Running 2 x MTX RT10-04, They sound Better then what i expected so i think the new ones will do the trick :D

I have Clarion 6 1/2 in front , Some cheapo tweeters
Clarion 6x9 in the back, Power Acoustic Amps , Planet Audio Pre-amp
Will post some pics later today what the enclosures look like, im pretty sure the new subs will run in them but id like to make some custom boxes in the trunk

[Spades]

If you can't get those MTX component tweets to scream...you're doing something wrong.

As for the subs... *meh* ...the enclosure and install is 90% of the fight. If you can't get them to sound right, you're not a smart person.

Give me whatever brand woofer, I could care less. It WILL sound good after I'm done installing it.

well, i am gratefull for you calling me stupid, but your ears are just a perception...just as mine are. I haven't heard a higher-end MTX subwoofer that didn't have ample hit even in a small or poorly designed enclosure. however, I stand by my statement that MTX components are inferior to some of the other manufacturers in the same price range. If I wanted my tweeters to "scream" at me, I would buy cheap-o Pyramid components and put 500 watts to them. personally, I prefer crisp highs and clarity...but thats just me i guess.

p.s. I never said I couldnt get my subs to sound right...did I? I said they lacked the definition and sound quality of a higher end more expensive sub. my box was built around the data sheet for the MTX thunder 8000 titanium spun subwoofers...look in my garage profile.
End of the day dude, if you know how to build a box, you can make cheap sound good, but if you are running sh-t, there is only so much you can do to improve the sound quality. go make a box for a roadmaster subwoofer, then a box for a JL audio subwoofer...listen to the sound. if you can't tell any differance...at that point it becomes obvious who the smart person is.

EDIT: hey, if you make a custom box for the trunk, there is a plastic panel seperating the trunk from the foam seat backings. if you remove that, you get several inches of space. my box is huge, but because i lopped out the panel and made the box tall, i have the massive amount of sealed air space my drivers needed, but i kept over half my trunk. also, I woundn't use 6x9's in the back. I am going to be building a plate to house some 4" speakers, and a port from the trunk to allow more bass into the cab of the car.

[sqcomp]

Again...

:iono:

I could care less. If you can't make that sub sound better...it's all you. If you have to live on the factory enclosure specs, then by all means, use a different woofer. But to sit there and say you must have a more expensive woofer to have quality sound. Sure, that is your limitation, not mine.

Stupid? No. Limited in the scope of your imagination, yes. You WOULD be stupid if you didn't take some time to look into what I'm referring to. If the woofers lack definition and detail and one cannot figure out how to improve the sound, keeping the enclosure the same, then yes...go buy an expensive woofer.

As for tweeters "screaming"...perhaps that was the wrong word. Would sing be a better word? Even if I want to say scream...I'll say scream with no distortion and absolute clarity. He he...I've got something for you. Again, it's NOT about the speaker itself. There's more than the speaker in the overall idea of sound quality. But please, continue to think the cure for crappy sound is simply about the speakers themselves.

You'll blow a truckload of money and I'll have just as good sound (if not better) and save myself the burden of spending that money. We do need to compare apples to apples for the most part though. There are MANY cheaper woofers than a JL W7 (for example) that will sound at LEAST as good. We do have to remember that louder is not necessarily better. That said, we can go side to side, you take your $600 W7, I'll take a woofer that is at LEAST half the price and have it sound just as good if not superior.

I'm sitting here smirking...It seems that there are several things that I know that you don't...unfortunately. Please, spend the time to know why.

The reason for my smugness is in my signature (plus a few more proverbial aces up the sleeve).

Honestly.

Here's my edit: Spades, we should get together and jam with an idea session about SQ. We're both in Oregon here. This is a friendly idea.

[sqcomp]

Spades,

To be fair...I totally understand what you're saying about buying into quality. This is a late model Audi A4. The short list of equipment is a McIntosh MCC406M, a single Image Dynamics ID10", and a Hybrid Audio Legatia 2 way set. The Legatias were put into the stock locations for continuity and vehicle resale value. The woofer is in a glassed sealed enclosure in the left side of the trunk. The install goal was to have as clean and stealthy of an install as possible. Here's the proof in my last install of what you CAN actively see:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_166.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_167.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_168.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_171.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_172.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_173.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_174.jpg

[IllusionX]

:drool: McIntosh amp...

[sqcomp]

It is indeed. I apologize about the quality of the photo, it was taken with my cell phone. The picture of the face was take on my back looking up to the side trying to get the entire amplifier in the shot.

Some have poo-pooed me for mounting this amplifier upside down. They're saying, "Oh, it'll get too hot." Actually, no it doesn't. The fan cooling keeps it nice and cool. It's even running at 2 Ohm mono off the last two channels for the IDQ woofer. We don't know how many watts it's actually able to put out on those channels. The factory spec is 500 Watts at 2 Ohms but...McIntosh is underrating that. With the sub lifting the rear deck carpeting off the frame, the 5-6 channel meter actually only reads 40 Watts of peaking output.

We'll get a more comfortable reading when we put the McIntosh meter module in the glove box where the factory disc changer goes. It's actually a pretty sweet spot for the module. You close the glove box and you have NO idea it's there. Nice, clean, and stealth.

[Spades]

you are missing my point. no matter how well you design an enclosure you will ALWAYS be limitied by the materials and machnical set up of the driver. its the same with amps. sure, they are all built around the same prinicple, but the quality of parts and the arrangement of those parts will determine the output of any piece of audio gear.

look, i have seen some tang band subs that should not have been able to sound the way they did when they were put in a well designed box, but, in the end, the drivers are still made of cheaper materials and they have their limitations.

you can critique my knowlege of enclosures all you want...doesnt change anything. i talked with serveral people i know in the area that build custom boxes for car stereo shops to get ideas on building the box...between the data sheet,research, and information I gathered from other people, I built a box that is very efficient and sounds good as well.

look, you are just one of those people that likes to pretend you know more than everyone else, and instead of trying to explain what you do that makes you better than the rest of us, you prefer to call us stupid and talk about how awsome you are.

so, if you ever want to try to argue with something i have stated in the future, try listing why you think i am wrong and save the stupid comments untill AFTER I refuse to listen to reason or accept anyones belief but my own.

I enjoy debates, however, I dont waste time listening to people that talk about smirking in a car audio forum. smirk on dude...i wont bother posting anymore in this thread...i have the feeling you are the type of guy who is going to break out "your mom jokes" and other gradeschool insults when someone doesn't belive that you are a god amoung mortals as you protray yourselfto be.

laters...have fun in delusion land.

[Alien Mantis]

We don't know how many watts it's actually able to put out on those channels. The factory spec is 500 Watts at 2 Ohms but...McIntosh is underrating that.


McIntosh makes GOOD STUFF, but you never see it out here on the west coast. People seem to prefer other/cheaper stuff.

:iono:

[Alien Mantis]

I woundn't use 6x9's in the back. I am going to be building a plate to house some 4" speakers, and a port from the trunk to allow more bass into the cab of the car.


SMART MOVE.

A port/ports in the rear deck makes a big difference with the bass.

[Alien Mantis]

Everyone will always have their own personal preference with brands/components, but there are so many companies making car audio components now, it's easy to create a decent sounding system for less money if you shop around and stay away from the big "brand name" stuff.

Alpine, Kicker, JL, Infinity, Eclipse, MB Quart, etc... are all overpriced.
You are paying for the name.
These companies make great stuff, but much of the cost is just for the name.

Check out the deals on: www.sonicelectronix.com

You can build a complete system that rocks for around $800 total, if you don't mind going with brands like Lightning Strike, SPL, Cerwin Vega, etc.

Check out the Kenwood KAC-8104D sub amp.
It puts out 500watts RMS @ 2-ohms, and costs $129.

Combine that amp with a "Lightning Audio Strike VC2 S4.10.VC2" 10" sub and you got your bass covered.
That sub sells for $65, and they have sealed boxes for $20!

[Alien Mantis]

You'll blow a truckload of money and I'll have just as good sound (if not better) and save myself the burden of spending that money. There are MANY cheaper woofers than a JL W7 (for example) that will sound at LEAST as good. We do have to remember that louder is not necessarily better. That said, we can go side to side, you take your $600 W7, I'll take a woofer that is at LEAST half the price and have it sound just as good if not superior.

EXCELLENT POINT.

The JL w7 woofer is really nice, but it is VERY expensive.
You can find MUCH cheaper subs that sound just as good.
I would never waste money on a JL sub, when there are so many other choices available.

I used to like the Alpine Type-R subs, but they aren't even a good deal anymore.

I heard a pair of Planet Audio 10's awhile back, and they sounded better than many other brands I heard, including JL's.

The "installation" makes a huge difference, so it is always possible the Planet Audio's were in their optimum environment, and the other subs were not.
But still.... it's all about the "bang for the buck".


:biggrin:

[sqcomp]

That's too bad spades...I was being friendly.

Cocky? Yes...with you. I'm only a waste of oxygen when what I'm saying is untrue. I'm always open to discussion. If you'd like to set me straight, I'd invite it.

*after going for a nice little 3 mile run, thinking about my original response , I restrain*

Spades, my good sir. Please don't confuse my responses with hostility. I do not truly think that I know more than all others out there. If indeed you believe I am a "waste of oxygen", that is your great smelling opinion. Please, continue supporting your brand biases and open wallet. I can see that no system that costs less than yours could EVER sound better. I of course have NO experience with expensive equipment and hands on installation. I humbly beg your forgiveness and ask for blessing to continue purchasing less expensive equipment so that I might be ruled by the lords of all that is sound quality...such as yourself.

...Hey spades. Pound it out your porthole. Show up at an IASCA SQ event, show me your trophy and I may ease off my soapbox. Maybe. That depends on how far behind me in the class rankings that you are. Of course, you're going to have to actually install a system that can pass the technical review of the judges first...

Mantis-

You'd think that McIntosh is an unknown brand out here. Funny though, I have been involved and know of quite a few McIntosh pieces installed into everyday vehicles in the Portland area.

[Arkhangel]

I woundn't use 6x9's in the back. I am going to be building a plate to house some 4" speakers, and a port from the trunk to allow more bass into the cab of the car.

but would that place the speakers above the stock position of the 6x9?
i thought of making a port to the cab to let more bass in, right behind the flip down arm rest, Mostly i like to keep the interior stock dont want to flash around that i do have a system installed;)

[sqcomp]

Ark,

From what Spades was saying, he seems to be referring to a plate speaker. You can still put the stock speaker covers over the plate setup. It'll look stock.

For better imaging, eliminate the rear speakers all together and concentrate on the stereo signal in the front and the subwoofer(s) in the trunk.

[Arkhangel]

Ark,

From what Spades was saying, he seems to be referring to a plate speaker. You can still put the stock speaker covers over the plate setup. It'll look stock.

For better imaging, eliminate the rear speakers all together and concentrate on the stereo signal in the front and the subwoofer(s) in the trunk.

Imaging? why take out these speakers?

[sqcomp]

There are several characteristics that explain the idea of overall sound quality as it relates to car audio:

Staging, imaging, ambiance, definition, and clarity are a few important ones. You can also think of timbre and tonal accuracy.

Imaging includes individual and specific locations for instrunments in the recording, they should be well defined and easily locatable. When you kick in rear fill speakers you move the stereo signal BACK, when it should be in front of you. Think of when you go to a live performance. Are you hearing the performers like you're on the stage? No. The soundstage is a plane in front of you. Ideally the soundstage should project the audio image that it is on your dash out on your hood, horizontally beyond both of the a-pillars.

...something to add to that spades? Or am I wrong about imaging? :evil:

[Alien Mantis]

Imaging includes individual and specific locations for instrunments in the recording, they should be well defined and easily locatable. When you kick in rear fill speakers you move the stereo signal BACK, when it should be in front of you. Think of when you go to a live performance. Are you hearing the performers like you're on the stage? No. The soundstage is a plane in front of you. Ideally the soundstage should project the audio image that it is on your dash out on your hood, horizontally beyond both of the a-pillars.


EXACTLY.

I think you did a good job explaining "imaging".

People load speakers in the rear just to make the overall sound louder.
Although, if you can angle things correctly in the rear, you can get a surround effect and still have good imaging.
( You gotta balance the levels correctly when you do this. )
You don't want the rears overpowering the fronts.

I was never a fan of speakers in the rear deck.
It's just a bad location.

[sqcomp]

Oh yes. You can indeed use the rears to "raise" the front image..sort of. The better thing to do would be to improve your front stage if you're thinking about sound quality.

[Arkhangel]

ok

[TinyGiant]

i have a mtx 4 channel 400watt amp (i think its one of the ones in your pics) i'll get the model number. i think its like ts3404 or something like that

if you are looking .. I am selling :)

[sqcomp]

Who is this last post meant for?

[TinyGiant]

thread starter

[sqcomp]

well then...put it in it's own thread. Not trying to be a troll or anything.

[talnlnky]

When it comes to SQ & subwoofers... My heart will always lean toward a sub with a very low Le, and the ability to fit into small ported boxes (qts of .4 or lower). Le is the main thing that determines if a sub sounds "sluggish", or "fast", the other thing is the type, and tuning of the box. A ported box tuned to 35hz or below should almost always sound the same (in terms of transient response) as a sealed box with a qtc of .707.

despite what most people think, box size has very little to do with how "fast" a sub sounds. Tuning, and the speakers Le is where its at.... even the size of the woofer doesn't matter.


When it comes to speakers.... the crossover is the key. Components almost always have a better suited crossover than even the most expensive co-axial designs, thus components almost always sound better.

Co-axials do have one big advantage over most component installs. Co-axials have the same point of sound, so it sounds like all the sound is coming from the same place, instead of highs up high, and the mids & lows coming from the bottom of your doors. This is referred to as the "rainbow" effect, and is something that SQ judges look for.

As for which brand is best... ehhh... i think pretty much all car audio companies have similar flaws or short comings in their lines.

Speakers: companies often car about getting loud, and spend more R&D in the aesthetics than the performance. metallic speakers have bad break up/distortion characteristics and should only be used in subwoofers. Tweeters (usually the titanium/aluminum/mylar ones) often can be overly bright and require a lot of work in the crossover.

Subs: Focus on power handling, which means a big voice coil, which means a high Le which means bad transient response (slow sound). Further, car subs are often optimized to work decent in both ported and sealed boxes.... and not play the very low notes. This isn't a bad thing though because of the small size of cars can help make up for the lack of low end extension of the sub.

There are a few companies that seem to care more about making quality products than making a profit however. Unfortunately, often these companies don't last more than a few years, or are bought out and end up and are no longer the same.

Physics is what matters... if you have designers with a background in physics rather than in business, than you will get a good speaker. Some speaker companies don't even use people with EE degrees or the sort, but rather just experience in audio... which is ok.... but usually not as good (its like guessing and checking on a math problem, instead of just working the damn problem in the first place).

In conclusion... car audio is car audio.... 95% of the offerings are extremely similar. If you want something different, look at the DIY and home theater markets (for raw drivers)...the DIY HT market has some awesome speakers that are incredible if you can install them correctly in a car.

[Altitude]

well then...put it in it's own thread. Not trying to be a troll or anything.

Why? His post was far more on topic than yours have been.

:thumbdown:

[TinyGiant]

Why? His post was far more on topic than yours have been.

:thumbdown:

lol

it has its own thread too..

oh well.. can't please em all :)

[sqcomp]

...okay. If you say so Alt.

Taln, you back from across the pond?

[talnlnky]

...okay. If you say so Alt.

Taln, you back from across the pond?

yep... back from ireland.

[sqcomp]

Since I'm the one that SO off topic...

Hey Taln...don't be jealous over my midbass' mounting depth :thumbup:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/CIMG0123.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/CIMG0128.jpg

[talnlnky]

Since I'm the one that SO off topic...

Hey Taln...don't be jealous over my midbass' mounting depth :thumbup:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/CIMG0123.jpg

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/CIMG0128.jpg

yeah screw you.... thing is... i'll have just as much "WOW!" factor... cause i'll have 12mm one way x-max, LINEAR X-max... so I'm sure I'll have similar displacement and range.

It's sunny right now... I'm really getting the urge to by another roll of raammat and starting on those doors.

[sqcomp]

It's all good brudda!

Damn man! You work fast...from I dunno when I'll get to the doors to It's sunny, I'm gonna mat my doors!

All I did today was four hours of troubleshooting on a BS Car Toys crap install, it turned out to be BOTH a bad radio ground (pioneer premier POS) and a bad RCA. Gotta love Car Toys. The install discipline was totally amatuer as well.

I've got pics of the single 5 channel amplifier that was supposed to be a slam dunk...and the BIRD'S NEST we found on the batery!! I'll throw those at you later when photobucket is back up from maintenance.

[talnlnky]

It's all good brudda!

Damn man! You work fast...from I dunno when I'll get to the doors to It's sunny, I'm gonna mat my doors!

All I did today was four hours of troubleshooting on a BS Car Toys crap install, it turned out to be BOTH a bad radio ground (pioneer premier POS) and a bad RCA. Gotta love Car Toys. The install discipline was totally amatuer as well.

I've got pics of the single 5 channel amplifier that was supposed to be a slam dunk...and the BIRD'S NEST we found on the batery!! I'll throw those at you later when photobucket is back up from maintenance.
normally I wouldn't say anything.... but since I have a buddy whose an installer at car toys... and I know my buddy is pretty darn good I gotta stand up and say.... NOT ALL car toys installers are bad.... but the company may often do a bad job when picking their installers.

[sqcomp]

Oh I know. You mentioned that yesterday. You've got to understand how many CT installs I see that are totally screwed. I know you'd understand if you could have been there on that jeep install.

...Most of the installs we see coming from CT are coming to us from customers who are experiencing problems with the original install. In this case the wiring was run incorrectly, or at least VERY sloppy, and CT (not the installer, rather the salespeople) was giving the customer the runaround with the Pioneer deck problem and they tried to sell the customer into two amplifiers that he didn't need.

*sigh*

Oh well, CT's loss. We gained a customer because of REAL customer service...not to mention the four hours of troubleshooting for free. All we had to do was to say, "sorry, we don't know what's wrong. Go back to Car Toys and have them take care of it." We didn't though. We were going out of our way. It gained an additional sale and a repeat customer.

Which CT does your boy work at?

[Spades]

there was a chain of stereo shops here for a while called car stereo city. I had a friend that used to work there that spoke very highly of them...this was back when i was 16 and still learning. I bought a deck and speakers from them and the guy behind the counter offered to install them for free. since it was a almost new car(bought it a couple years used, almost new), I figured it couldn't hurt letting them install it.

unfortunately the guy that did the install was like 400 pounds and very abusive on my almost new car. i didnt say anything...and i fixed the broken stuff myself, but i never went back there.

because of my friend, i knew there were good installers there, i just happened to get one guy that didnt really take pride in his work.

i guess my point is, bashing a chain of stores because of one employee isn't always the best. course, i suppose i do it too sometimes...I have seen alot of cars go through my shop because of services done at jiffy lube or oil can henrys. not everyone that works there is bad, but damn, there are alot of burnt out or "new" people working there...i guess it would be the same for car audio as it is for mechanics.

[sqcomp]

...Oh I hear all of this. It does register.

I just cannot convey how many very subpar installs I have seen come from Car Toys, Best Buy, Circuit City...etcetera.

You're absolutely right about the implied idea that not every installer is bad that works for these companies.

That said, there are some "rules" and managerial styles that these companies force on their installers that breeds a bad install environment. I can say this having seen it and heard it from employees of these companies (both present and past). Both of the owners of the shop that I deal with are Car Toys graduates and know the "game" that those companies play.

Also, there is one installer at a Car Toys just up the street from me that I worked with at Cartronics oh so many years ago. If I couldn't do it myself and Streamline Audio or Sound Choice weren't available, I might work with him. The thing is, I know that both the previous will always be available...

For me, it's definately not the company that I follow (simply because of the bad practices). It's the installer.

[talnlnky]

Oh I know. You mentioned that yesterday. You've got to understand how many CT installs I see that are totally screwed. I know you'd understand if you could have been there on that jeep install.

...Most of the installs we see coming from CT are coming to us from customers who are experiencing problems with the original install. In this case the wiring was run incorrectly, or at least VERY sloppy, and CT (not the installer, rather the salespeople) was giving the customer the runaround with the Pioneer deck problem and they tried to sell the customer into two amplifiers that he didn't need.

*sigh*

Oh well, CT's loss. We gained a customer because of REAL customer service...not to mention the four hours of troubleshooting for free. All we had to do was to say, "sorry, we don't know what's wrong. Go back to Car Toys and have them take care of it." We didn't though. We were going out of our way. It gained an additional sale and a repeat customer.

Which CT does your boy work at?

Believe its in federal way, washington.... might be in tacoma tho. I haven't seen him in about 2 years... but I keep in touch via e-mail/myspace/aim.

[sqcomp]

I can safely say that I've never seen any of his installs. :)

Most of the installs that I have had the pleasure of redoing are from around here.

Hey spades...which CSC was it? I remember the one on 121st by where the Old Chicago is now. There was another one in SE Portland...I just don't remember where. My first fun system was with Cartronics on MLK...the one that Yung Su (the owner) was always at. That dear gentleman introduced me to my first Alpine 7909 and three way Pioneer ODR set. *sigh* I loved that combo.

[talnlnky]

i would've loved to have one of those ODR setups.... optical from the head unit to the processors to the amps... NO NOISE SYSTEM... gawd that'd be cool.

My denon deck can do the balanced outs using the same plug as the zapco gear uses.... which is basically the same as a computer PS2 plug (think old round mice/keyboard connectors)

[sqcomp]

I know denon. I don't know if you saw the install in the Audi from a month back, we originally purchased a DCT Z1 for that. Decided not to use it, so it's sitting in a closet. I would really like to get my hands on the DCT 1 even more. They're all so stupidly expensive.

That ODR setup can still be had. You just have to find the Japanese Carrozzeria equipment. Still extremely hard to find though. There are other options out there that are just as good...and just as expensive.

[Spades]

it was the one on pacific hwy/99 in tigard. i dunno, when i was in there it seemed like they had decent stuff and deals, i mean, the store carried some really cheap junk and alot of pioneer and sony stuff, but i also saw some higher end stuff too. i had bought a deck and some eclipse speakers...i struck out on the free install though,lol.

[sqcomp]

You're talking my neighborhood...

Although back when they were operational, I was on the Eastside.

"free install"...gotta love that. It's almost never free.