Handling vs EG Civic

[regal]

I am asking a lot of questions because $12k is a lot of money to spend and when I buy a car I keep it for at least 15 years. Its a big commitment.

After 15 years I have to get a new car. My 93 Civic is lowered with a Koni suspension and 15" alloy wheels. I live in a hilly area with very curvy roads. The civic just cuts thru the turns and handles like a dream. I am the type of driver that will take a car to its limits not in 150 mph straight aways, but I like 40 mph sharp bends. I have been known to go into the ditch with a car that doesn't grip and handle properly. I grew up on BMW's but they have way to many quality issues so I switched to Honda.

Unfortuantely Honda no longer makes a light (2200 lb) 2-door. So I have been studying the Yaris. Lowered a little with Koni springs/shocks I would imagine the Yaris could be a good handling car, or would I be dissapointed coming from a wishbone car?

[Tamago]

the yaris will never handle exactly like an eg civic, but it can be a fun car.

take a look at my handling thread, it explains a good deal of the suspension geometry.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14026

[eTiMaGo]

^ yup, a great introduction read :smile:

Stock, the cars handle decently. Add good suspension and tires and it's a ton of fun. It is a taller car than your old civic, so it will probably feel quite different, but that's certainly something you can get used to :smile:

[Tamago]

i personally think a great deal of the "driving security" you feel in your civic will be reduced simply from the un-supportive seats in the yaris. i know it's doing things backwards, but a nice racing seat or celica gts seat would do wonders for the way the car feels.

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

my 88 corolla dx had better seats than the yaris does.....

[Tamago]

my 88 corolla dx had better seats than the yaris does.....

lo i had a '90 corolla and i'd have to agree.

miss my 89 mr2 seats. adjustable side bolsters ftw!

[regal]

Never liked what my Civic's seats do to my lower back.


It sounds like the Yaris is a platform with potential, thats mainly what I wanted to know before a drop $12k on a new car. My first cars were BMW's and they handle great but the quality and reliability was always a nightmare. I swear in 15 years my civic never stranded my once. But it needs so much work (all new bushings, wheel bearings, clutch, cylinder head) that it is time for a new car.

[Tamago]

Never liked what my Civic's seats do to my lower back.


It sounds like the Yaris is a platform with potential, thats mainly what I wanted to know before a drop $12k on a new car. My first cars were BMW's and they handle great but the quality and reliability was always a nightmare. I swear in 15 years my civic never stranded my once. But it needs so much work (all new bushings, wheel bearings, clutch, cylinder head) that it is time for a new car.

yup, has potential

have you considered a 2yr old scion xA? half the price, same engine, in some ways better, came more "loaded" than the yaris. shorter gears though. it'll feel peppier but won't get your 40mpg except on the highway

[regal]

Yes but I am at the age now where I just don't feel like fixing a car. A two year old scion could potentially have been put thru the ringer by a teenager. I like the idea of a 3 year warranty and I can do all the oil changes and PM's so I can be guaranteed 200k miles. With used cars I have always had good luck, but I don't feel like rolling the dice this time. Plus I just never liked the looks of 4-doors.

[supmet]

Never driven a civic, but with just a sway bar on the yaris, its FUN to drive in the mountains. I can plaster any of my passengers up against the doors with ease :D

edit: can't wait to see what it feels like with TRD shocks and springs

[regal]

I can plaster any of my passengers up against the doors with ease :D




Thats all I need to know! Going to the dealer to test drive on monday.

Thanks

[Tamago]

Yes but I am at the age now where I just don't feel like fixing a car. A two year old scion could potentially have been put thru the ringer by a teenager. I like the idea of a 3 year warranty and I can do all the oil changes and PM's so I can be guaranteed 200k miles. With used cars I have always had good luck, but I don't feel like rolling the dice this time. Plus I just never liked the looks of 4-doors.

fyi the xb was the car bought by teenagers.. they avoided the xa like the plague

[WeeYari]

Check out this thread for some awesome vids of how this car handles with some basic suspension mods and good rubber :)

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10000

I really recommend this vid from that set http://s208.photobucket.com/albums/bb133/HTMyaris/?action=view&current=MyMovie.flv

[supmet]

Thats all I need to know! Going to the dealer to test drive on monday.

Thanks

The stock suspension is a little boaty. I doubt they'll have a yaris on the lot with even a sway bar, but if they do test drive that one. That little bar for less than 200 bucks makes a WORLD of difference. I call it my "+15 bar" because I take every turn 15 mph faster than I did before :thumbup:

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

The stock suspension is a little boaty. I doubt they'll have a yaris on the lot with even a sway bar, but if they do test drive that one. That little bar for less than 200 bucks makes a WORLD of difference. I call it my "+15 bar" because I take every turn 15 mph faster than I did before :thumbup:

imagine what it would be like if you added under carriage braces.....

[Tamago]

imagine what it would be like if you added under carriage braces.....

and the spaghetti bar!

[gaffo]

I am asking a lot of questions because $12k is a lot of money to spend and when I buy a car I keep it for at least 15 years. Its a big commitment.

After 15 years I have to get a new car. My 93 Civic is lowered with a Koni suspension and 15" alloy wheels. I live in a hilly area with very curvy roads. The civic just cuts thru the turns and handles like a dream. I am the type of driver that will take a car to its limits not in 150 mph straight aways, but I like 40 mph sharp bends. I have been known to go into the ditch with a car that doesn't grip and handle properly. I grew up on BMW's but they have way to many quality issues so I switched to Honda.

Unfortuantely Honda no longer makes a light (2200 lb) 2-door. So I have been studying the Yaris. Lowered a little with Koni springs/shocks I would imagine the Yaris could be a good handling car, or would I be dissapointed coming from a wishbone car?

maybe i can give sound advice.

I'm a former Truimph TR7 owner (literally a Go Cart - tightest handling car EVER - zero bodyroll and VERY high lateral G's (I had heavier and lower springs than the stock TR7 BTW)), and later a Honda Accura owner (also a tight low car (much more so that your average car - though not as much so as the TR7)).


I HATE BODYROLL - PERIOD. hate loath hate loath hate!

..........

WARNING!!! STOCK YARIS handles like shit WRT to bodyroll. She bobs and weaves all over the interstate above 85 mph, and can't corner worth shit. If you like waterbeds you'll love the Yaris HB.

...

I installed the TRD springs, shocks and struts 10 days after I bought the Yaris. The stock handling was THAT BAD. I had heard that the TRD suspension would "fix" the handling from this board before I bought the car. and thankfully this website's forum was correct!!

TRD fixed the boaty feel. It she as tight as my TR7? - not quite BUT CLOSE!, and she does handle better than my Accura now. She is the second best handling car I've ever driven ;-). I may end up getting an anti-roll rear bar, but not sure if I need it really.

33,000 miles and very happy with the handling. I did a solid 40mph hearpin cornering on the Rio Grande valley S.H. out of Big Bend (that is one hellashous rollercoaster ride of a hihgway).

As for being a "tall car", yes she is, but that does not seem to matter WRT to handling. With TRD she handles great - like one assumes a low car would. The sole reason the STOCK Yaris handles like shit is due to the weak "americanized" springs/shocks/struts.


.........


you better like feeling every rock/pebble and crack on the highway though - that is the price one pays for a good handling car.

no way around that.

........


stearing could be better - not sure if that can be improved upon. its too "soft" and over assisted power at slow speed and also not self-centering enough. Both my T7 and Accura had alot better non-power self-centering stearing.

[gaffo]

i personally think a great deal of the "driving security" you feel in your civic will be reduced simply from the un-supportive seats in the yaris. i know it's doing things backwards, but a nice racing seat or celica gts seat would do wonders for the way the car feels.

the seats are bad - zero side support ;-(.

back support is not that great either.

sit up too fookin hight too - like an SUV!!!.............low seats would be better ;-(.

[gaffo]

Never liked what my Civic's seats do to my lower back.


It sounds like the Yaris is a platform with potential, thats mainly what I wanted to know before a drop $12k on a new car. My first cars were BMW's and they handle great but the quality and reliability was always a nightmare. I swear in 15 years my civic never stranded my once. But it needs so much work (all new bushings, wheel bearings, clutch, cylinder head) that it is time for a new car.


Germans can't make a reliable car - never could figure out how they got such a good rep.

Dad had two POS Porches - fell apart every two weeks

Buddy's got a VW beetle - total POS, broke all the time.

Seems German cars are no better than the POS british cars of old (like the one I own and fixed every two weeks for 8 long long years).


................


but Italian, French and Brit cars were never known to be reliable - unlike German cars. What's the story there?

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

and the spaghetti bar!

which one i have both:laugh:

[regal]

Germans can't make a reliable car - never could figure out how they got such a good rep.




When I was into German cars I had to have 2 daily drivers because I was invariably always working on one of them. My father only drove German cars when I was growing up and I thought it was normal to have to work on your car all the time. After I bought this Honda it was like being on vacation, only things it has needed in 135k miles is belts, waterpump, and an exhaust. Bought the SS exhaust on ebay for $150.

[MUSKOKA800]

I am asking a lot of questions because $12k is a lot of money to spend and when I buy a car I keep it for at least 15 years. Its a big commitment.

After 15 years I have to get a new car. My 93 Civic is lowered with a Koni suspension and 15" alloy wheels. I live in a hilly area with very curvy roads. The civic just cuts thru the turns and handles like a dream. I am the type of driver that will take a car to its limits not in 150 mph straight aways, but I like 40 mph sharp bends. I have been known to go into the ditch with a car that doesn't grip and handle properly. I grew up on BMW's but they have way to many quality issues so I switched to Honda.

Unfortuantely Honda no longer makes a light (2200 lb) 2-door. So I have been studying the Yaris. Lowered a little with Koni springs/shocks I would imagine the Yaris could be a good handling car, or would I be dissapointed coming from a wishbone car?

Sadly, Koni ignores Toyota for some reason.
But...lots of other quality components are readily available.

[cleong]

Koni did make shocks for the NCP13 Yaris/Vitz/Echo. Unfortunately that doesn't fit the NCP91 Yaris.

[Thirty-Nine]

There are a variety of suspension options for the Yaris, though, especially if you decide on a set of full coilovers. Unfortunately, there aren't a whole lot of aftermarket shock absorber options out there other than the TRDs and Tokico HPs. However, again, if you decided to go the coilover route, you will have more more choices, although, of course, they're a bit more pricey.

[regal]

Well I sold the old Civic for $1500 today, pretty sad time for me. But I have a new Yaris and I am going to put the $1500 toward TRD shocks, Eibach Springs, TRD Rear Sway Bar, and 15" rims that look good on a white car. I have a gut feeling that this will transform the Yaris, right now driving the stock suspension is just uninspiring. The Yaris is such a solid light weight chassis , there has to be some potential. I like a car to handle like a go-cart. This boatiness has to go.

[kurokoma-kun]

I think you're on the right track regal. My own car was not stock for long, but I can still remember thinking it was like driving a bathtub full of water :laugh: The rear sway bar alone helps a lot imo. Lowering the center of gravity helps handling even more.

What wheels are you thinking of?

[regal]

What wheels are you thinking of?


Not sure yet, I think it is hard to find wheels that look god on a white car.

[largeorangefont]

Get the Tokico struts and save yourself $100.

You are right. It will be like a new car after you get the suspension on it. Don't worry it will probably be better than your Civic.

[regal]

I decided to test my new car a little today. The car in stock form seems to handle better the harder you push it. The soft bounciness on a 20 mph sharp turn turns firm when I take the same turn at 45 mph. I think this thing really has potential to out do the EG Civic, if I can only figure out which wheels to start with. Either XB factory 7 spokes or Maxxim Assaults.

[SailDesign]

I decided to test my new car a little today. The car in stock form seems to handle better the harder you push it. The soft bounciness on a 20 mph sharp turn turns firm when I take the same turn at 45 mph. I think this thing really has potential to out do the EG Civic, if I can only figure out which wheels to start with. Either XB factory 7 spokes or Maxxim Assaults.

HOW long did it take you to actually try the car out instead of just witching about it?

Sheesh! :biggrin:

[regal]

I'm 38 years old and this is my first new car, yes I had a little paranoia about running her off the road. I've had some cars that were downright dangerous at cornering , but this thing is very capable.

[SailDesign]

I'm 38 years old and this is my first new car, yes I had a little paranoia about running her off the road. I've had some cars that were downright dangerous at cornering , but this thing is very capable.

Hah! I'm 53 (actually, 54 today!) and this is also my first new car ever. Nice feeling, no?

Now go play some more :smile:

[CASTREX]

Just a little advise while picking new wheels.

The underpowered 1NZ-FE will greatly benefit from a lightweight wheel.

There are some economical choices within the 11-12lbs weight range on 15 size.

And some nice tire options on 195-55-15

Don't overlook the rubber... if you are looking for that go kart handling, the rubber is really important.

[Split]

i think with all the bolt-on rigidity bars, and some coil-overs it would outhandle your civic. Technology has progressed since 1993. Same goes for the Honda Fit.

[CASTREX]

^^^
The OP already got himself a brand new Yaris....

[mrbond]

Yeah, the Yaris definitely has potential. The Tein Yaris was able to pull a 1.01g skidpad. Granted, it had a shit ton of suspension and frame rigidity modifications, but still.

[largeorangefont]

Yeah, the Yaris definitely has potential. The Tein Yaris was able to pull a 1.01g skidpad. Granted, it had a shit ton of suspension and frame rigidity modifications, but still.


SCC did the same thing with coilovers, wheels, and tires on an otherwise stock sedan.

[regal]

Amazing.


I think the stock suspension is a little too high in the back, at least without back passangers.

[SailDesign]

I think the stock suspension is a little too high in the back, at least without back passangers.

regal, you think too much - go drive. :biggrin:

[regal]

I've got a trip to DC coming up, going to be a good 6 hrs drving in one day. Actually looking foward to it because of this new car.

[Split]

^ awesome! now hurry up and get that suspension in there and I have a feeling you'll be quite impressed.

[kngrsll]

SCC did the same thing with coilovers, wheels, and tires on an otherwise stock sedan.

got a link to the article? what kind of tires and coilovers did they use? i assume those are hoosiers or something.

[2006fronty]

got a link to the article? what kind of tires and coilovers did they use? i assume those are hoosiers or something.

Here you go, http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0708_sccp_lateral_g_skidpad_testing/index.html

[kngrsll]

Here you go, http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0708_sccp_lateral_g_skidpad_testing/index.html


thanks mate

[detroiter]

Not sure you how you feel about it, but I've always thought the old school bronze colored rims go awesome with white colored cars. I'm not a real big fan of this current trend of black rims on a black car, chrome rims on a white car type of stuff. I just think the older color trends look awesome, just like how some of the old red color subarus came with bronze mesh rims, looks very nice!

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

i think with all the bolt-on rigidity bars, and some coil-overs it would outhandle your civic. Technology has progressed since 1993. Same goes for the Honda Fit.

i said same thing but others on here are anti-yaris.....

[regal]

Not sure you how you feel about it, but I've always thought the old school bronze colored rims go awesome with white colored cars. I'm not a real big fan of this current trend of black rims on a black car, chrome rims on a white car type of stuff. I just think the older color trends look awesome, just like how some of the old red color subarus came with bronze mesh rims, looks very nice!


Yes bronze on white car looks great.

I want to keep mpg so I am leaning toward the less wide XB Scion rims

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

Yes bronze on white car looks great.

I want to keep mpg so I am leaning toward the less wide XB Scion rims

those xb wheels are NOT TPMS friendly and if you got an 08/09 they will not work.

[regal]

I was all set to spend $1400 bucks for the following:

15x6.5 Maxxim Assaults
Champiro 195-55-15 summer performance tires
TRD springs
Tokio Blue Shocks
TRD Rear Sway Bar


But I backed out, having second thoughts. I miss the way the EG Civic with Koni susp handled , got to thinking that I would be pretty dissapointed if the $1400 doesn't transform the Yaris. Don't get me wrong I like the Yaris, but I might just save the $1400 and put it toward an old 1st gen Miata one day. On the other hand I like my daily driver to handle like on rails. I always go thru a period of the blues when I sell a car, maybe I should wait till the EG is a distant memory before upgrading the Yaris.

The solid rear axel really has me questioning whether there is much to be gained by investing in the Yaris. Am I all wrong here?

[detroiter]

Start small and buy the few things that will definately make a major change but give you a taste of what the Yaris can do. You would be surprised just what the TRD Sway bar alone can do. I'd say go with the shocks, springs and rear sway bar just to start off your little handling journey. You won't be disappointed.

You are right though, but nothing will handle like the EG Civic because no other car is the EG Civic. You just have to face the music and accept that unless your driving another EG, then nothing is going to be 100% like the EG. By all means though..let me give you this to read and you can go from there what you think about Yarii's handling capabilities :)



From Zero to Hero: The 1g Challenge
Getting a car with any semblance of sportiness to pull a g is old news. So we went the opposite way in search of the elusive 1g: find the biggest turd we could get our hands on and see if we can get it to support its own weight sideways. Ironically, finding a reasonable candidate wasn't so easy in a sea of modern high-performance cars. It had to be horrid enough to make the challenge worthwhile, but at the same time new and popular enough that manufacturers are willing to actually make parts for it. Our managing editor's Datsun F10 and our editor's minivan came to mind as potential sacrifices to the skidpad, but we couldn't find anyone sufficiently odd making parts that lend any handling advantage.

We settled on a not-so-sporty, but certainly compact 2007 Toyota Yaris S sedan. It's the ideal econobox platform, with probably the least guts of any car we can think of. Just the kind of thing the Japanese would consider cool enough to be turned into a spec race car-the Vitz-precisely where we'll find our suspension bits. So the plan was to baseline the Yaris sedan, bring out the parts we'd need, and make changes on the spot to have the Yaris break the magical 1g barrier.

TEIN's crew came out to the track with a set of their unfortunately named Super Street coilovers developed from their Yaris hatch race car. The simple bolt-on suspension and minor changes to the factory alignment brought the Yaris from a pathetic 0.76g to an impressive 0.85g on the 200-foot skidpad. All with just springs, dampers and no anti-roll bars, in typical Japanese fashion.

Obviously, no amount of suspension would make the Yaris' stock grocery-run mommy tires break a g. So we called up the wheel and tire experts at Tire Rack to find the right pair of shoes. We weren't surprised that no one had any idea about what fits a Yaris, but that's what's so cool about Tire Rack. If they don't know, they'll find out. Even after fitting a set of 15x7 Enkei RPF1 with 225/50R15 Hoosier A6 compound tires in a computer simulation, Tire Rack went to the extreme of bringing in a stock Yaris sedan into their headquarters in South Bend, Indiana, to make sure the set-up worked with no interference issues regarding the stock suspension and chassis for the entire range of suspension travel. They even made sure there was enough clearance for the TEIN coilover suspension we were planning to stuff in. Special treatment, we thought, but it's a service they perform for any of their customers.
With the Hoosier autocross A6 compound and cheater slick tread design, our little Yaris went out and pulled off 1.05g. Something few of our projects cars can claim and enough to beat even the phenomenal new 997 Porsche 911 Turbo. So what did we prove? Two things: a little tire goes a long way and, while you may not be able to make a turd go fast, it's pretty easy to make one stick. -JC

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0708_sccp_lateral_g_skidpad_testing/challenges.html



That should be more then enough to satisfy your question if the Yaris can handle ;)

[largeorangefont]

Blah blah blah... Am I all wrong here?

Yes. If you get all that stuff you won't be dissapointed.

Dont worry about the torsion beam axle. The car will be better than your Civic. My Yaris can corner with my friends M5, and about as good, if not better in slower corners than my modified Cobra.

The Cobalt SS has a torsion beam axle and it is faster around a track than an STI or EVO. Not that I am comparing the two.. just saying.

[regal]

Thats amazing, but for me coil-overs are not in the cards. I wish there was some hard data with the TRD suspension (shocks, springs, rear sway bar) and decent tires.

Would the TRD combo put the Yaris 70mph at the Slalom and .85 g's ? I mean the stock test results are so bad and it just feels like it is pulling a plow in turns that the engineer in me wants to know what I am getting for the TRD investment. Anyone care to take a stab at what Motor Trend tests would look like with the TRD stuff ?

Sorry to be such a pain, its just that with the economy and everything I am questioning all my for fun type purchases.

[mikenacarato]

those xb wheels are NOT TPMS friendly and if you got an 08/09 they will not work.

solve by doing the tpms bypass. :biggrin:

[largeorangefont]

Would the TRD combo put the Yaris 70mph at the Slalom and .85 g's ?.


YES! Read the SCC article above. They did .85 g's with STOCK tires, Tein coilovers and NO rear sway bar. Those coilovers really aren't much better than a TRD/Tokico combo. Plus you will have the rear sway bar and better tires to make up the difference.

If you are worried about costs, do the suspension stuff and leave the stock tires on for now. You will be looking at a $600 investment if you go that route. You could also get Tanabe NF springs instead of the TRD springs and cut more costs.

[tonyg]

i put on some basic Eibach springs and a nice lightweight 15" performance wheel/tire package and the difference was night and day. The stock tires are so bad it's unreal. Just changing the tires to high perfomance summers will make a huge difference.

[kngrsll]

i did an alignment soon after i got the car. i got the smallest camber bolts from toyota, and rear shims from spc. i set it up for zero toe and max camber up front and just a hint of toe in and a little additional camber in the rear. the car drove 100x better.

[jkuchta]

Tokico will have the HTS adjustable shocks out within the next month or so (as I' told), so that would be another option available to you if you wanted to wait a little longer.

[frownonfun]

12k is a lot to spend on a new car?! and i thought i was cheap.

[regal]

Tokico will have the HTS adjustable shocks out within the next month or so (as I' told), so that would be another option available to you if you wanted to wait a little longer.

That is great news, it really seems the shock options we have now are the limiting factor.

[kngrsll]

That is great news, it really seems the shock options we have now are the limiting factor.

a friend has those on an xB, they are reeeally nice...