H.O. Alternator question

[goku87]

The Back Story:

After all the late nights and around-the-world long distance phone calls, my last hope for a rebuilt alternator was lost (after a long two weeks lol). There is a local shop I know of back home that rebuilds alternators and I was hoping they would be able to turn mine into a high output alternator. I didn't want to believe it but apparently all the things I have been reading about our Yarii alts not being able to be "upgraded" is a fact, and that's just the way it is, apparently. So, to get a high output alt, we basically have to buy one.

There are only a couple of posts I could find here on this topic, but they didn't really have anything other than "buy one here for $500+" so rather than resurrecting a dead thread I thought it best to make a new one with hopefully new feedback available...?

The Question(s):

Will I even need a high amp alt?
-stereo @ 2100W RMS + 1 extra battery (maybe 2) + whatever other electronics I may add in the future.

Has anyone actually purchased one?
-where from and how much did it cost?

I guess an "overdrive?" pully might do the trick if the wattage is low enough? Anyway, thanks in advance.

[Lafiro]

I have noticed in the last few weeks, that while I am in reverse putting my car into the driveway, I always stop and open my window to pull in the side view mirror, and each time the window goes up, and down, the car trembles.

Does this indicate to me that the alt. is really that weak?

I mean, I don't really see my lights dim inside the car with music on, but I never play loud music anymore, just enough to sound good.

Maybe I need a better battery? Or is it the alt's fault?

[goku87]

I have noticed in the last few weeks, that while I am in reverse putting my car into the driveway, I always stop and open my window to pull in the side view mirror, and each time the window goes up, and down, the car trembles.

Does this indicate to me that the alt. is really that weak?

I mean, I don't really see my lights dim inside the car with music on, but I never play loud music anymore, just enough to sound good.

Maybe I need a better battery? Or is it the alt's fault?

that was the first thing that happened when my battery started going bad. i'ld take it to auto zone or somewhere where they can check the battery to tell you if it's good or not.

[fuji]

Have you upgrade your grounding system - look up Big 3. This is going to be a must.

[firebob]

I have noticed in the last few weeks, that while I am in reverse putting my car into the driveway, I always stop and open my window to pull in the side view mirror, and each time the window goes up, and down, the car trembles.

Does this indicate to me that the alt. is really that weak?

I mean, I don't really see my lights dim inside the car with music on, but I never play loud music anymore, just enough to sound good.

Maybe I need a better battery? Or is it the alt's fault?

First I would look at the number of grounds and where there at. I think the 09 only has the one that goes to the driver side shock tower. *There is a second wire coming off the battery going to the top of the transmission.* IMO it needs one to the taped hole in the passenger shock tower and one to the alternator bracket. If you use a good quality cable then you don’t need to use anything larger then the alternator wire size. I do not see where you need to add 12 more points to a car. If your running a sound system and don’t run the same size negative as positive then your just asking for troubles.

The one thing in have seen for years is the stock wiring harness is lacking in the size of the positive wire size that feeds everything. I do not know if this is the case with my Yaris because I do not have all the options. I don not think they look at the voltage drop when they designed there electrical system with a running loaded car.

It could have something to do with the battery but I don’t think it would be the case. Get someone to volt test the battery when you’re playing with the windows with everything going. Most fully charged wet cell batteries are fully charged at 12.8 to 12.6. If you drop below 12.4 form terminal to terminal then it could be it.

I don’t have the power package so I’m not sure where to start with this problem.

[1NZYaris1]

what amperage is the stock alt , link below is a listing for a 90amp unit

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Lichtmaschine-Toyota-Yaris-Starterleistung-90A_W0QQitemZ280321324944QQcmdZViewItemQQptZAutote ile_Zubeh%C3%B6r?hash=item280321324944&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=66%3A2%7C65%3A1%7C39%3A1%7C240%3A1318

might be worth a look for you ,all the company info is in the small print. :thumbsup:

[pennyracer]

i think factory toyota alt is 80 amps from what the guy told me at the toyota dealer never seen much about this kind of thing here . i would like to get a 140 amp alt . that bolts right on without any hassles does anyone has the real scoop on this

[turboyaris]

just get a 150 A alternator off of anything and wire it up to work. you willjust have to deal with a custom made bracket... if it really has to be bolt on, look at toyota engines that have a similar design i.e. 1zz or 2zz its possible that the alternator could be a bolt on, or at least bolt on with that alternators bracket

[YarisSedan]

Just find a good local rebuilder that can rebuild your altenator for higher amps. You can ask a local reputable parts house if you cant find any. They may be able to send it out for you.

[goku87]

Have you upgrade your grounding system - look up Big 3. This is going to be a must.

I will be doing that during my install. :biggrin:

[pennyracer]

the stock alt cannot be built up to 140 amp plus i did try that already plus i want to run a qualilty jap alt not a shitty american rebild unit !! also they are so big they look out of place on the motor but all else fails i will have to run the american made alt if i can find any others

[Lafiro]

Yes I do have a system running, all the goodies of a 7inch screen, navi, HD radio, new speakers on a 1200watt 4 channel amp(HIGHLY unlikely its doing anything even close to 200..), and then 1 12"sub connected to a 1ohm 2600watt amp, but its a 4ohm sub, so maybe 800 watts. This is all connected in the back with a 1.5farad cap, and using some pretty thick power/ground cables. Same size.

And when the car trembles, the music is off. Only thing I got running are my HID's. But honestly I don't know if that makes a difference either. Im going to have to test the voltage on the battery before and during the car being on.

[goku87]

Yes I do have a system running, all the goodies of a 7inch screen, navi, HD radio, new speakers on a 1200watt 4 channel amp(HIGHLY unlikely its doing anything even close to 200..), and then 1 12"sub connected to a 1ohm 2600watt amp, but its a 4ohm sub, so maybe 800 watts. This is all connected in the back with a 1.5farad cap, and using some pretty thick power/ground cables. Same size.

And when the car trembles, the music is off. Only thing I got running are my HID's. But honestly I don't know if that makes a difference either. Im going to have to test the voltage on the battery before and during the car being on.

one consistancy i have read is that the stock batteries sometimes suck, whether they are under a lot of load or not. like mine. it just decided to start dying.

[firebob]

I was doing a little looking around the car today. There is a second wire coming off the negative battery terminal. It goes down under the battery and bolts to the top of my automatic transmission.

I did fix my first post on this. I wish I would have seen this before.

[goku87]

I was doing a little looking around the car today. There is a second wire coming off the negative battery terminal. It goes down under the battery and bolts to the top of my automatic transmission.

I did fix my first post on this. I wish I would have seen this before.

approx. how long was that cable run?

[firebob]

I would say right at 4 feet long.

[goku87]

I would say right at 4 feet long.

hmmm. i wonder if it's in the same location for a manual tranny.

[firebob]

It looks like ran for the next few days. If I have not gotten a pic up by Monday morning send me a PM so I get it first thing in the morning. I’ll do my best to get a pic.

[goku87]

It looks like ran for the next few days. If I have not gotten a pic up by Monday morning send me a PM so I get it first thing in the morning. I’ll do my best to get a pic.

Awesome. It will do me good to know kinda where I should be looking. :w00t:

[firebob]

This is the ground on the 09 lift back automatic that is on the transmission. It is on the front of the trans under the air box. I did 3 pics. The first one is a zoom of the bolt, then I zoomed out for a little location type shot, and the last one I moved out a bit more for a marker shot with a blue dot of where the camera was.

I suck with sizing pics so if you want them sent to you just let me know. I opened them up and used the snip tool to copy them down to a decent size. The originals are 3.5 meg or so and 3648 x 2736 in size.

[pennyracer]

i have to ask whats the gain on this mod ? i have a ton of amp draw on my battery and alt

[sqcomp]

The Big 3 is a charging wire upgrade that allows your alternator to get the best connection to the battery and charging system. It also makes certain your chassis is the best ground it can be. This is done by supplementing the stock wires from the alternator positive to the battery positive, engine block/alternator case to battery negative and battery negative to chassis ground.

You use a larger wire, preferably the same size as that wire which feeds the amplifier(s) but not less than 4ga for any practical gain. You also place a fuse in the wire between the alt positive and battery positive to prevent a short causing a fire.

By making these connections better, many people see as much as a full volt of increase in charging voltage. Also, many times you'll recover from a hard discharge more quickly than before because current can flow more freely into the electrical system. You also remove strain from the stock wiring when powering a high wattage system.


Here are pics of my big 3 install on a 2007 Yaris S Sedan:

Frame ground point from alternator:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_201.jpg

Frame ground termination from alternator:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_202.jpg

Alternator ground source ground:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_203.jpg

Transmission to frame 1/0 gauge ground cable with compression fittings:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_207.jpg

Transmission to frame ground (this is shot looking up from under the car):

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_208.jpg

Battery negative to frame ground:

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/IMAGE_209.jpg

Hope this helps...

[pennyracer]

okay thanks for the info i will try to check the voltage before and after this mod . thanks again

[firebob]

This all comes down to the theory of voltage drop.

I don’t think you are going to notice a difference in voltage unless you have a huge amperage draw. You might be able to see something on a volt meter by doing this or you might not depending on the variables.

IMO. If you are running an amp then you need to look at the grounding systems (if more than one the charging system). I’m not saying to put in a different alternator but look at its wiring (I have not looked over the wiring harness at this point so I’m not the one for this). This will take care of the grounding system on the front of a car. I always suggest running the same size neutral wire as the power wire and to ground the wire at the disruption box.

[pennyracer]

well i am running two arc audio amps here are the specs on my amps both are running at a 2 ohm load i have the 300x4 and the 1000x1 amp
they draw a bit of power so i am looking for more usable voltage .

OUTPUT POWER (RMS) @l% THD 100HZ 14.4VDC



POWER OUTPUT (2 2 OHMS

1000 WATTS (S 113 A Eff. 68%



POWER OUTPUT @ I OHM

1000 WATTS (Of 132 A Eff. 53«/

TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION

FREQUENCY RANGE -MB

I5dB-230dB



CROSSOVER RANGE

30Hz-230Hz



SUBSONIC FILTER RANGE

10Hz-80Hz



BASS BOOST

0-15dB(Si30Hz-125Hz



S/N RATIO (A wig) ref I Walt 4 ohms

>70dB



SEPARATION

NA



DAMPING FACTOR 25W out 4 ohm lOOHz

>IOOO



INPUT SENSITIVITY (RCA)

.30V-6.5V iff 4O

.25V-5.3V@2n
,15V-3.7V(2j in

INPUT IMPEDANCE

13KOHMS

OUTPUT POWER (RMS) @1% THD 100HZ 14.4VDC
KS 300.4



POWER OUTPUT @ 2 O

175 X 4 WATTS @ 113A Eff. 68%



POWER OUTPUT @ 1 Q

NOT RECONMMENDED



POWER OUTPUT @ 4n BRIDGED

350 X 2 WATTS @ 132A Eff. 53%



POWER OUTPUT @ 2 fl BRIDGED

NOT RECOMMENDED

TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION

FREQUENCY RANGE -3dB

7Hz-68KHz



CROSSOVER RANGE

55Hz-5.5KHz



BASS BOOST

0-15dB@45Hz



S/N RATIO (A wtg) ref 1 Watt 4 ohms

>98dB



SEPARATION

76dB



DAMPING FACTOR 25W out 4 ohm lOOHz

>800



INPUT SENSITIVITY (RCA)

..25V-4.0V



INPUT IMPEDANCE

[firebob]

This should help you with a system that size.

[talnlnky]

okay thanks for the info i will try to check the voltage before and after this mod . thanks again

i respect pretty much everything i've seen sqcomp write.... though I have to play devils advocate here....

Checking just your voltage before and after won't tell you the whole story. Your voltage MAY OR MAY NOT change with this mod.... be upgrading the wire you aren't allowing for more voltage, but actually more current (amperage)... you can send 500v over a 4awg wire, but... you can only safely send 125amps of current over a 15ft long run of 4awg.

point being... It would not surprise me much if you don't notice much... if any of a voltage increase. But even if you don't see that difference... there actually will be more amperage... which means your battery will recover/recharge quicker, thus your voltage will drop back down to normal idle range (13v) much quicker than with just the stock 6awg wires.

many variables that factor into the game. By changing just one thing... you can actually change a handful of other things.

[goku87]

...you can send 500v over a 4awg wire, but... you can only safely send 125amps of current over a 15ft long run of 4awg.

what calculations do you use? my reference seems to be off:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

[firebob]

The only way he will see anything is if he is stressing the system to the point discharge and the alternator can not keep up (I think this goes back to the flux currents or something) or he has bad corrosion in the factory wires.

If I had my NEC with me I would give you what it says on this. But the higher the voltage the higher the amount of wattage you can transmit. The killer to most systems would be the voltage drop that happens with long runs of wirers. I don’t know what the expectable voltage drop for a 12 volt system but I do not think it would be much.

[talnlnky]

what calculations do you use? my reference seems to be off:

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

http://www.bcae1.com/


go to the page about wires...

[sqcomp]

To add to what Taln is saying, I didn't do the upgrade for any other reason besides simply achieving a faster recovery time from the alternator. I know already that the 80 Ampere alternator will NOT put out 125 Amperes under ANY conditions.

...he he...

I'd be an ass to start the Watt is a Watt issue (random thought)

[firebob]

If you can find a trashed alternator and get it rebuilt using smaller wires you should be able to get about 100 amps. I’m sure if you do some digging around you will find a bunch of cars using the same alternator. As far as shops find some rat roders classic car guys and see if they know of a good one. I’m sure of the cost for a rebuild.

It might be worth it to find someone that works at an auto parts store and have them buy it for you. They get a 20% discount most of the time (even with most special orders) and if you work it right by having someone order it and cancel (you have 24 hours to cancel a major order by law) they might be able to get it 30 to 50% off to get it out of there inventory.

[talnlnky]

To add to what Taln is saying, I didn't do the upgrade for any other reason besides simply achieving a faster recovery time from the alternator. I know already that the 80 Ampere alternator will NOT put out 125 Amperes under ANY conditions.

...he he...

I'd be an ass to start the Watt is a Watt issue (random thought)

i didn't mean you had to run 4 awg... I only said 4awg cause I remember that for 15ft of 4 awg you can safetly transport 125amps +/- a few. 1/0awg is something more like 250-300 I think... don't remember off the top of my head... the upgraded "big 3" of course aren't going to be 15ft long... so a 4awg run (thats 5ft) will take much more current than 125amps.

Point being... voltage is only half of the story.

[pariahdecss]

My other question about an HO alternator, don't you get a larger belt drive load on the engine, unless it is some radical high efficiency design. I wouldn't want a HO alternator if it would kill my fuel economy - or is the added load negligible?

Mike

[sqcomp]

Oh yeah, I wasn't defending or attacking at all. I'm in agreement. My big three is just right for the car IMHO. That little alternator isn't capable of too much.

I am anxious to see where I'm going to ground three amplifiers in the trunk of the sedan...

you'd prolly lose 5 Hp. I don't know your driving style so I can't comment on fuel efficiency.

[firebob]

Pariahdecss I’m going to take a stab at this but I’m not 100%.

If it was done with the same case and bearings then you would just have the issue of starting the spin. If you just switched out the magnets I’m sure you could get 10 to 15 amps but if you went too far with the magnets you would need to change the spacing between the wirers and the magnets. If it was rewound using a finer wire you could get 20 amps. With doing both you could get 120+ with only use a miniscule more power off the motor.

I would think it would be less then 5 hp if it was done right.

[talnlnky]

My other question about an HO alternator, don't you get a larger belt drive load on the engine, unless it is some radical high efficiency design. I wouldn't want a HO alternator if it would kill my fuel economy - or is the added load negligible?

Mike

In my 97 mazda 626 (4clynder) I didn't notice any different in engine performance/mpg's when i upgraded from stock 80amp alt to 160amp (custom built)... Yeah... my mpg's did go technically down... but I couldn't tell.. I'm guessing it was less than .5mpg. Yaris might be more affected... I dunno... the mazda had like 120hp.

[pennyracer]

ya you dont to want loose any horsepower with yaris cuz we already dont have enough to go around :) dont think you really would lose any at all with a higher output alt inless the brearings are shot but and i would think it would burn a belt long before you had a chance to lose horsepower what i am looking for is a denzo alt that looks the same but even bigger in size with same mounting points with a 100amp plus output does anyone know of such a alt on another toyota product dont want to look at a big ass ugly gm alt on a pint size motor looking for some good leads i cant be the only yais guy here that needs much more alt output for a big stereo system

[goku87]

ya you dont to want loose any horsepower with yaris cuz we already dont have enough to go around :) dont think you really would lose any at all with a higher output alt inless the brearings are shot but and i would think it would burn a belt long before you had a chance to lose horsepower what i am looking for is a denzo alt that looks the same but even bigger in size with same mounting points with a 100amp plus output does anyone know of such a alt on another toyota product dont want to look at a big ass ugly gm alt on a pint size motor looking for some good leads i cant be the only yais guy here that needs much more alt output for a big stereo system

after i got around too it i looked into the http://www.excessiveamperage.com/ link from the second post in this thread (been kinda busy lately) and the guy quoted me $430 for 180A @ idle + s&h to ak + red flake paint. All i've read about them is good stuff, and so far the customer service is awesome. give them a try.

[talnlnky]

ya you dont to want loose any horsepower with yaris cuz we already dont have enough to go around :) dont think you really would lose any at all with a higher output alt inless the brearings are shot but and i would think it would burn a belt long before you had a chance to lose horsepower what i am looking for is a denzo alt that looks the same but even bigger in size with same mounting points with a 100amp plus output does anyone know of such a alt on another toyota product dont want to look at a big ass ugly gm alt on a pint size motor looking for some good leads i cant be the only yais guy here that needs much more alt output for a big stereo system

thats why you go high efficiency.... no need for lots of power.
I'll only be running 500watts on my stereo... course i'll be doing sq, and won't actually have a "sub"... but rather dual 8" midbass drivers up front. If that's not enough.... maybe someday i'll add a 10" glassed in the back with say 200 watts. But I doubt i'll need that... Bass up front is a very cool experience and tricks the mind into thinking its louder than it really is.

[sqcomp]

Taln,

I'd swear you and I are the only people who put thought into the idea of up front bass...

[talnlnky]

Taln,

I'd swear you and I are the only people who put thought into the idea of up front bass...

yeah... which is exactly why you want me to drive up to your place and bribe you with burgers & beer in order to get you to help me install my stuff.

See, you REALLY want to hear a similar... but very different install and see how it compares to yours.

[Lafiro]

Uhh ever listen to a good sounds system in a mercedes or BMW before? Now thats good sounding music! Stock! And yes, bass comes from the front speakers as well.

[talnlnky]

Uhh ever listen to a good sounds system in a mercedes or BMW before? Now thats good sounding music! Stock! And yes, bass comes from the front speakers as well.

yeah.... done the "premium" mercedes stereo thing before.... Ever sit in a car setup for IASCA SQ comps?

Ever feel a car play 10hz tones? Yes... I said feel... not hear... cause you won't hear it... you only feel it... feel it on your air drums... weird feeling.


Fact remains.. even in those "premium" stock setups the raw drivers being used still aren't that great.... bt they are blended in via eq tricks about as good as can be expected.

[pariahdecss]

Thanks guys - I am only running at about 600W RMS - and as I understand it the stock ALT is 80AMP. I did upgrade my battery "ground to chassis" to 0/1 gauge and I seem to be fine

I no longer have the desire to make my ears bleed like I did when I was younger. I am actually downgrading my subwoofer from a 12" to a 10" - the 12 is too much sub (for me) in this car. Anyone want the Infinity 12" Kappa Perfect sub in a Q-logic sealed box that I am getting rid of?

[sqcomp]

pari,

I hear your feeling on the lessening of the "need" for bass ouput. I have I don't know how many bass CDs that are just sitting in my CD case that will never be used again...

Potentiometers are a great idea!

I have a bit of "fear" with part of my system plan. 2200 potential Watts on two 12" woofers is an idea that makes me grit my teeth. At least you can control the output with the previously mentioned potentiometer!

[talnlnky]

I have a bit of "fear" with part of my system plan. 2200 potential Watts on two 12" woofers is an idea that makes me grit my teeth. At least you can control the output with the previously mentioned potentiometer!

pussy

[sqcomp]

LOL! I hear you. The guys at the shop are saying the same thing! Give me a good recording over loud bass any day! Oh...and pass me my Metamucil and adult diapers too!

[talnlnky]

LOL! I hear you. The guys at the shop are saying the same thing! Give me a good recording over loud bass any day! Oh...and pass me my Metamucil and adult diapers too!

why can't you have both.... if you want a cool cd, very well recorded... pick up the score to the movie The 5th Element... there's a track in there that drops down to single digit tones... I think as low as 6hz. I've got it laying around somewhere.

[sqcomp]

Oh I hear that. I've got quite a few Telarc/Erich Kunzel albums. I LOVE the sound effects tracks on some of those.

I'm pretty particular about what labels I buy for critical listening. I'm a big fan of Telarc and Sheffield Labs.

[GnomeBody]

How much do you guys think the stock alternator can handle as far as amp Wattage go's.

Im running a 700watts amp and I want to add another 200watt 4channel for the rest of the speakers besides the sub. Do you all think thats pushing it?

[talnlnky]

You should be fine... if the stock alt is really an 80amp.
also.. if that 700 watt amp is a class D, then you'll be fine for sure as they are more efficient.

The type of music you listen to really matters too....

[pennyracer]

my next project will be 8" two way focal speakers in the rear quarter panels with custom built sealed elclosers there is plenty of room for them it will match the front pod style i have with carbon fiber inlay with a removable grill just like the back also

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/boydstir2291/RANDOM-INSTALLS483.jpg


http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/boydstir2291/speakerpod.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/boydstir2291/IMG00002.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/boydstir2291/IMG00004.jpg

http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc74/boydstir2291/IMG00003.jpg