Another S/C'd member worried about his AFR

[LtNoogie]

I am posting the dyno printout for another Blitz S/C'd forum member who is worried about his AFR. His dyno technician would not perform a third pull because he did not want to be responsible for damaging this member's engine due to the lean readings.

Without access to a ScanGauge to indicate ignition timing, I do not know if he is facing a problem or not. He is not experiencing any pre-ignition due to the use of octane booster but that gets to be an expensive practice.

Largeorangefont, he has specifically asked for you to weigh in on this. I can post the HP curve if that would be helpful.

Thanks.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/LtNoogie/newdyno2.jpg

[Nexus1155]

on top of being unsafe in some cases, you are losing a ton of power. If he has some money to throw around, i heard the SMT8 by perfect power might be a viable solution

[bearda]

Anybody tried a Megasquirt on a Yaris? If the ECU is rejecting the piggybacks maybe it's time to go standalone.

[Crandall]

Anybody tried a Megasquirt on a Yaris? If the ECU is rejecting the piggybacks maybe it's time to go standalone.

If you have the knowledge or time to wire it into your harness then it might be a viable solution, but I'm getting really tired of thinking Megasquirt is some kind of easy plug and play solution; it's not. I have a friend who put it in his Escort and it was a lot of work, the car runs fine now but it took a lot of time.

Octane boost wouldn't have that much effect on the A/F ratio unless he was running C-10 or better. Did they try to advance or retard the timing at all before he refused to run the car anymore?

[Nexus1155]

lol yeah, everyone thinks megasquirt is a god send. It is very crude, but it works well if you know how to use it. On a newer car like this i can see it being a bitch to work with. Money better invested elsewhere.

[Crandall]

lol yeah, everyone thinks megasquirt is a god send. It is very crude, but it works well if you know how to use it. On a newer car like this i can see it being a bitch to work with. Money better invested elsewhere.

Agreed 110%

[CASTREX]

^^^ ???


As ANY other stand alone and even piggy back out there... a Megasquirt would have to be hardwired. That is a pain yes... but is not any different from the other stand alones out there.

With any stand alone ECU you NEED to know what you are doing if you want to doit right.

I'm not saying that the Megasquirt would work or not in a Yaris... but ease of installation should not be factor...

There are other modern cars running just fine with Megasquirt.


There is one reason we have no one (other than Garm's in process project) running a standalone... and that is the cost of it. And basically that is the advantage of the Megasquirt... it's low cost.


So I will have to disagree and say that until some gives a valid reason (different from hardwire is a pain) why the Megasquirt would not work on Yaris... it should remain on the table as one good option.


Since basically 90% of the forced induction Yaris won't be pushing the limits... fuel and timing control on a basic way is the only thing they need.

Is there anyone with actual knowledge on Megasquirt that wants to chime in?

[Nexus1155]

While there are many cars where MegaSquirt can completely replace the stock ECU, on some cars you'll need to leave the stock ECU in place. There's several reasons why you might want to do this. On some installations, you might want to have the MegaSquirt control just the fuel and would rather not deal with having to tune the ignition. Or you may have an ECU that controls the automatic transmission, has the voltage regulator for the alternator inside it, controls a drive by wire throttle, or has other features that aren't easy to control with MegaSquirt. On a car like that, the solution is what's called a parallel installation.

http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_articles/installing_megasquirt_in_parallel.htm

[bearda]

I'm not saying a MegaSquirt or any other standalone would be easy, I'm just looking at it from the perspective of needing something effective. If you can't cooperate with the stock ECU take it out of the picture for fuel delivery.

Yeah, installing it would be a cast-iron bitch. The upside is that once you did get it installed and tuned right it would work. And continue to work, despite whatever psychotic episode the ECU decided to throw.

[CASTREX]

Yeap, on a car like the Yaris you will want to leave the OE ECU on the car if you want to keep all the standard features.

Ideally some one would want to take control only over the fuel and timing and use a MAP sensor to tune from... and let all other functions to be handle by the OE ecu.

That would be the easiest way to do it.

First time is the hardest... and the most expensive..

But if someone with the knowledge can figure a way to make it work... and document the process...

Then it will be a breeze for the people coming behind...


So, who wants to be the pioneer!!!!

[cali yaris]

I forwarded the dyno sheet to Blitz, that's the best I can do to be helpful. :frown:

[PETERPOOP]

Hey let's solve my problem! What the fart is wrong here!? I only got a 20whp gain with a headerback 2.25" exhaust setup. Noogie got 27whp gain with only an axleback and header as his exhaust upgrades. I want to shoot myself. Oh yah, and my torque got worst! lol. I am in a deep depression as of now.

Here are my HP dyno charts from the resent run. Below will be the old sheet.

(Like stated in first post #1, My dyno guy said I'd probably make more HP in higher RPMs, but he did not want to do any harm to my engine, so he didn't.)

So I was reading in noogie's "How to cure a lean condition thread" and I am kinda confused...

Largeorange front was saying that noogie's readings are OK, if the blitz kit has retard timing? So if that is the case, I would not be running lean either?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/peterpoop/newdyno.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v459/peterpoop/olddynoreading.jpg

[LtNoogie]

See how inaccurate the butt dyno was? My 27 HP gain is before I tune the car some more. It's now a matter of dimishing returns. How much more money do I want to sink into this for marginal gains. Give me another 30 HP and I may dump a few more bills into it. I just don't want to be the first Blitz owner to blow up his engine.

[PETERPOOP]

Yah, but I got problems. I only got a 20whp gain with a manual! I should have had a bigger gain than you. If I could get an additional 30 HP gain from this kit, I am all for it. But I am not done with my current problem. I still feel "robbed" of HP that I should have gotten. All that money, all that time, and for 20whp.........

Is my lean condition worst than yours Noogie?

[LtNoogie]

My AFR was actually worse than yours. Sorry for the messed up formatting of the tabular data. My RPMs are the second column. AFR the last column.

AFTER SUPERCHARGER

s RPM x1000 hp ft-lbs Air/Fuel
0.24 4.10 N/A N/A 14.64
0.58 4.20 88.67 110.88 14.91
0.97 4.30 93.31 113.97 14.59
1.40 4.40 93.61 111.73 13.77
1.79 4.50 96.69 112.85 13.45
2.19 4.60 98.06 111.96 13.64
2.60 4.70 100.11 111.87 13.79
3.00 4.80 100.07 109.49 13.80
3.42 4.90 101.35 108.64 13.85
3.80 5.00 104.52 109.79 13.90
4.23 5.10 103.96 107.06 13.96
4.64 5.20 103.46 104.49 14.13
5.07 5.30 104.02 103.08 14.17
5.50 5.40 104.64 101.77 14.14
5.94 5.50 105.85 101.08 14.12
6.39 5.60 106.11 99.52 14.28
6.84 5.70 109.51 100.90 14.38
7.29 5.80 111.59 101.05 14.37
7.72 5.90 115.35 102.68 14.27
8.17 6.00 116.62 102.09 14.18
8.64 6.10 116.29 100.12 14.16
9.10 6.20 116.53 98.71 14.07
9.60 6.30 114.51 95.47 14.01
10.12 6.40 112.97 92.71 13.87
10.63 6.50 114.46 92.49 13.79

[PETERPOOP]

Yah I see that at your 6200 RPMs you were at 14.07. At 6,200 RPMs I was at 13.59. You were leaner than me.

I see that you took it to 6500 RPMs. That was my intended plan, until my dyno guy said no ways. Yours actually wasn't as lean when you took it past 6300.

So did you come to the conclusion that you have retard timing and even though these numbers mean you are running lean, you really aren't?

ps: I am going to dyno on a dynojet and taking it to 6500 RPMs once I figure everything out.

[jkuchta]

I may be an idiot, but aren't these numbers showing that you guys are running rich?

14.7:1 is perfect.....then wouldn't anything less be rich of peak?


Would anything over 14.7:1 be lean (like 15:1 etc.)?

[CASTREX]

Your logic is right... the higher the number the leanest,

However your point of reference is wrong... 14,7:1 would be the perfect number at idle or when crusing, not under boost.

Under boos you need to run much richer than that to be on the safe side...

Ideally these guys should be around 12:1 under boost... that is why they say a 13.5 or a 14 is dangerously lean...

[cali yaris]

The blitz fuel controller does that and only that -- it does not adjust timing.

[CASTREX]

So did you come to the conclusion that you have retard timing and even though these numbers mean you are running lean, you really aren't?


Is not like that... the problem is not running lean.

As largeorangefont explained, there are 2 things that could kill your engine...
Temperature and Knock...

Running lean will USUALLy lead to higher EGT (exhaust gas temp)...

This can be sorted by either adding more fuel to the mixure (making it richer) or by taking away ignition timing.

That's why it was said that even with those AFR readings... if the ECU or the black box were taking timing away... then you were probably OK


Talking about EGT... why you guys haven't picked a pyrometer? Those are not that expensive and would definetely help you sleep better at night...

[CASTREX]

The blitz fuel controller does that and only that -- it does not adjust timing.


Has anyone tried to disconnect the black box and see what happens? Ideally would hve to be some one with a wideband installed.
That would answer the question if the black box is actually doing anything at all...

[CASTREX]

maybe I'm wrong but, maybe your full custom exhaust loses too much back pressure, therefore you lose more horsepower than Noogie, try go back to stock exhaust to see if you gain more horsepower back.

I don't really think that is the problem...

When we have forced induction usually the largest the exhaust the better (within a range of course)

You need to remeber that no car is the same as no Dyno is the same...

Weather condition and other factors could have affected your final output.


Anyways.... isn't 20whp withing the range of the tipical gains offered by the blitz unit?
I mean... in you car that is a 23% increase in HP...

The tq still looks a little weak... but still within range...


I can see these kits putting 10-15whp more with a tune... if there would only be an easy way to tune it...:frown:

[PETERPOOP]

I don't really think that is the problem...

When we have forced induction usually the largest the exhaust the better (within a range of course)

You need to remeber that no car is the same as no Dyno is the same...

Weather condition and other factors could have affected your final output.


it..



Yah true. When I did the dyno run, it had to have been atleast 85 degrees (HOT!). I don't think my 2.25" headerback exhaust would have me lose HP, definately torque, but NOT as bad as it is showing.

Has anyone tried to disconnect the black box and see what happens? Ideally would hve to be some one with a wideband installed.
That would answer the question if the black box is actually doing anything at all...

Noogie! Do it!

maybe I'm wrong but, maybe your full custom exhaust loses too much back pressure, therefore you lose more horsepower than Noogie, try go back to stock exhaust to see if you gain more horsepower back.

Haha, it wouldn't be that easy or cheap to go back to my stock exhaust setup. But I know what you're implying.

Did they try to advance or retard the timing at all before he refused to run the car anymore?

We aren't capable of doing that unless we have a standalone ecu, correct?

[whooppee777]

i undid my pvc valve to make hooking up my boost gauge easier and there is a ridiculous amount of oil coming out of my engine and into the manifold. something has to be very wrong

[PETERPOOP]

lol. well make a new thread. :P

[whooppee777]

i figured everyone was already looking in this thread

[PETERPOOP]

true. good luck

[staypuft]

i undid my pvc valve to make hooking up my boost gauge easier and there is a ridiculous amount of oil coming out of my engine and into the manifold. something has to be very wrong

thus i installed an oil catch can

http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u260/hyperdash09/photo-8.jpg

[Nexus1155]

Why is everyone having problems with this kit now :( :( :(

[PETERPOOP]

Because nothing can be easy! Especially FI! doh

[whooppee777]

its aftermarket shit, its never easy. but thats y we do it

i know its normal to have a little bit of oil coming through, but i have a shit ton WAY more than normal

[whooppee777]

and by the way my afr go to the 12 range at WOT but tend to stay in the 14 at 1 to 5 pounds of boost

[PETERPOOP]

and by the way my afr go to the 12 range at WOT but tend to stay in the 14 at 1 to 5 pounds of boost

Well you're definately not running as lean as noogie and I. I ordered a scangauge II from garm tonight. Hopefully I'll get it soon and have more accurate readings.

[PETERPOOP]

yes, because you are boosted. An oil catch can on a boosted engine is a good idea, I have one as well.

I am curious of your A/F readings since you are using the 1.8 tb.

[whooppee777]

urrently planning a group dyno day with some other tuners in the area within the next month u'll get ur readings as well as graphs

[Nexus1155]

it seems like proper tuning would net this supercharger alot more power. people who arent running as lean as other nets 10 more hp?! imagine if you were actually running well...

[PETERPOOP]

That's our goal!

[bearda]

Well you're definately not running as lean as noogie and I. I ordered a scangauge II from garm tonight. Hopefully I'll get it soon and have more accurate readings.

What is it you're trying to monitor with the Scangauge?

[LtNoogie]

Most likely ignition timing at different RPM during WOT. We might be able to compare this to his air/fuel ratio from the dyno run.

[Doc Zaius]

I was pretty sure that lean = more power..? But more dangerous.

I still have yet to buy gauges, so I can't be any help to you guys right now. Although (interestingly, whoopeee) I remember taking some rubber line off something and there being a fair bit of oil/muck inside it. Don't know which line. But perhaps I should get an oil catch-can too.

[PETERPOOP]

I was pretty sure that lean = more power..? But more dangerous.



The guy who did my dyno was saying all cars are different. Some guys make their cars run lean because their car responds with more HP when it is lean. Other guys lose HP when it is ran lean. I guess the Yaris is the case of a car losing HP when running lean at higher RPMs.

[LtNoogie]

I've contacted my dyno guy to see how much he charges to tune this little beast. Afterall, it's now my little project car.

As a side note, I set the S/C to OFF this morning when I got on the freeway. I did not see any ignition retard down to single digits. I am only guessing but this tells me that the ECU is sensing pre-igition during boost and is retarding the timing, which is what my pictures showed in the other thread. That can't be good for engine life or max power output. When there's no boost and no pre-ignition, the ECU leaves the inigition timing in the low to mid 20's.

[Nexus1155]

I was pretty sure that lean = more power..? But more dangerous.

There needs to be a harmony, thats why theres a recommended range for supercharged vehicles

More fuel = more allowable ignition advance.

You ideally want no knock correction as it takes the ECU a bit for every degree of correction where you lose a severe amount of power. It should really be checked on the cars with misfired on how bad it is!!!

[yaris-me]

Hi Long. Have you considered maybe one of your fuel injectors might be clogged? I try running a high quality injector cleaner in your gas and see if the condition improves. You are trying to eliminate all variables?

[whooppee777]

could the power enterprises camcom correct a/f ratios by manually advancing or retarding the timing?

[CASTREX]

could the power enterprises camcom correct a/f ratios by manually advancing or retarding the timing?

To correct the AFR you need to add or sustract fuel not timing.

However, by sustracting enough timing you can make the car run safe even with those lean AFR's you guys are seeing.

Theoretically you could tune the car with the Camcom... however, I haven't seen any camcom sucsesfully installed in a Yaris.... yet.

Some times you can find those for cheap on ebay... it worths a shot.

[LtNoogie]

I can't wait to see what a properly tuned Blitz'd Yaris can put out. I know we've been admonished not to put larger injectors on this car but hear me out on this theory.

What if the current fuel system with the Blitz piggyback fuel controller cannot pump enough fuel into the cylinders during WOT, leading to a lean condition. The ECU detects pre-ignition and has to retard timing to protect the engine, and as a consequence robs us of the maximum power the S/C can put out.

If I put slightly, not hugely, larger injectors in the car, it may run less lean during WOT and the ignition retard is less, giving more power. During idle or light throttle, the ECU detects a rich condition from the O2 sensor and is able to dial back the fuel to maintain proper AFR. Remember, I said slightly larger injectors, not fire hoses. If the increase in fuel is within the ECU's cabability to control, that could just work.

Anyhow, that's the theory I want to present to my dyno guy if I have him tune the car.

[Doc Zaius]

^^^ Quite excited about the sound of that! :biggrin:

[CASTREX]

Garm's car has been running with TC injectors on the OEM ECU right?

And iirc he didn't had any idle or part throttle problems... just a lean condition at WOT... but that was @ 180 whp

I say your theory is worth a shot if you can find some injectors for cheap.

Look for injectors from a Celica GTs, corolla/ matrix XRS. I think those are a little smaller than the TC's.

You can look into the 6 gen celica forums for those..

[Nexus1155]

well holy crap if that the case, are you maxxing out the stock ones? any way to tell? I mean anything over what? 85% efficiency is bad you want it from atleast 65% to be running somewhat safe?

But see this is the problem, you have no way to scaled the injectors constant and must calculate this pretty good based on the amount of fuel it will be dumping in there....Larger injector + same constant = stays open for a longer time = more fuel = richer afr.... good luck

On a GT28 1.8T A4 I was tuning it started out with 210 or 280cc depending on the fpr with an afr of 11-12 while driving, swapped in the 550cc knocked us down to around 8.5-9.0 before i properly calculated the scalar to bring it back up. just to give you a headsup.

[LtNoogie]

That's why I'm leaving this to a professional tuner. I'd end up with stacks of different size injectors and totally frustrated.

[turboecho2005]

Megasquirt is a viable option! it can be done... and it has been done....

I am running it in my car. Its not overly complicated either if you have a little bit of electronics background. I have helped to install and tune with megasquirt before.

Any shop should be able to make you a wiring harness.

[Nexus1155]

I am running it in my car. Its not overly complicated either if you have a little bit of electronics background. I have helped to install and tune with megasquirt before.

I don't know if they have a standalone and a plug in play but ive only seen standalone, but im sure you can wire it in tandem.

did you install it on a yaris or an echo?

[LtNoogie]

Ok, I just spent a half hour on the phone with dyno guy. He does not recommend that I start with larger injectors or more powerful fuel pump. He recommends a boost-sensitive adjustable fuel pressure regulator.

He also states that his expertise is with muscle cars and not ligament cars. (my words :laugh:)

Hey, we have enough Blitz'd owners on this forum now that each of us should try one tuning method and report back. And then we slowly go from there!:thumbsup:

I hear crickets chirping.

[RagnaCaT]

I can't wait to see what a properly tuned Blitz'd Yaris can put out. I know we've been admonished not to put larger injectors on this car but hear me out on this theory.

What if the current fuel system with the Blitz piggyback fuel controller cannot pump enough fuel into the cylinders during WOT, leading to a lean condition. The ECU detects pre-ignition and has to retard timing to protect the engine, and as a consequence robs us of the maximum power the S/C can put out.

If I put slightly, not hugely, larger injectors in the car, it may run less lean during WOT and the ignition retard is less, giving more power. During idle or light throttle, the ECU detects a rich condition from the O2 sensor and is able to dial back the fuel to maintain proper AFR. Remember, I said slightly larger injectors, not fire hoses. If the increase in fuel is within the ECU's cabability to control, that could just work.

Anyhow, that's the theory I want to present to my dyno guy if I have him tune the car.

This is the smartest post, try OEM injectors from a 1.8 like corolla or XD could help you out??? :thumbsup: i would go for it I swapped camry 2.0 3S-FE injectors on a corolla 1.6 4A-FE modded and got almost 2 hp at WOT and that was an N/A setup you are FI :iono:

[whooppee777]

at a local auto-x event this weekend i had a nice chat with a turbo charged xa and he told me that he was running the blitz supercharger with nitrous before going turbo (he's blown his engine 5 times)

he said he had a lot of issues with the belt slipping and asked him about a/f ratios and he said that the blitz kit really has the stock injectors pushed to its limits.

now this guy also works at the shop in northern virginia which has a high reutation so this isnt some averge joe, hes a tech at this shop that knows what hes talking about.

sounds like bigger injectors r the way to go and a stronger fuel pump would also help. an adjustable fuel pump is not an option on our cars. see cali's thread on his turbo build for the explanation

[whooppee777]

Theoretically you could tune the car with the Camcom... however, I haven't seen any camcom sucsesfully installed in a Yaris.... yet.

the tein yaris had one successfully tuned with the camcom, it got like an additional 10 wheel hp/10 pounds of torque its in an issue of siphon. i cant remember who tuned it though

[LtNoogie]

Not adustable fuel pump. Adjustable fuel pressure regulator. Dyno guy is guessing that the fuel pump may be putting out sufficient max pressure but it could be regulated down too low for when we're boosting. A boost-sensitive fuel pressure regulator would tap into the vacuum line at the intake manifold and increase pressure when it senses boost pressures.

I'm starting my Internet research now.

[whooppee777]

yeah, but the Tein yaris has the Greddy SC instead:smile:

yea i know but before the supercharger it was using the camcom, thats the important thing people either dont know or seem to forget

[CTScott]

I've been following this thread and doing some research. I think the CAMCON-T has a lot of potential with this issue (and it is fully compatible with the Yaris 1NZFE):

http://www.powerenterpriseusa.net/products/electric/camcon/camcon.htm

TOYOTA VVT-i & VVTL-i
The CAMCON-T controls the VVT-I timing +/- 20 degree in 15 different points of 500rpm increments within 2000rpm to 9000rpm Range.

A/F is controlled -10% to +20% in 17 different points of 500 rpm increments within the range of 1000rpm to 9000rpm.

[LtNoogie]

Anyone ready to be the first to try this?

http://forums.trinituner.com/forums/archive/fs-msd_bosch-boost-adjustable-fuel-pressure-regulators-199355.htm

[Nexus1155]

if you're already taxing out the injectors why add more pressure to them! its like adding to the problem lol, especially if the fuel pump is not adequate enough as well

[LtNoogie]

Problem is there's no proof as to why the engine is starved for fuel. Not long enough duty cycle? There's no way to know if we're running at 80% duty cycle is there? Not enough fuel pressure? Not sure how to measure that under load.

Some of this is trial and error and hopefully the sharing of experiences on the SAME platform. It's nice to know what worked on a totally different car but...

[jkuchta]

Adding a little more pressure to the injectors shouldn't be a problem, and would be a good way to add a little more fuel.

The problem is the pump itself and the type of fuel system we have.

The fuel system is a returnless system...which means that fuel pressure changes are brought about by speeding up or slowing down the pump. To add a boost-referanced regulator you'd need to not only boost the pump pressure up over what the max fuel pressure would be, but you would also need to add a fuel return line back to the tank.

This is not impossible, but is a little work.

What someone ought to do is referance the pump voltage to the boost pressure. If it's not too taxing on the pump, that solution might circumvent the need for a return line. I have no idea what the ECU would have to say about that though.

[PETERPOOP]

The thought of slightly larger injectors seems to be worth trying. I just got my 1zz throttle body in the mail that I ordered weeks ago. I'll wait to put that on later.

[LtNoogie]

Adding a little more pressure to the injectors shouldn't be a problem, and would be a good way to add a little more fuel.

The problem is the pump itself and the type of fuel system we have.

The fuel system is a returnless system...which means that fuel pressure changes are brought about by speeding up or slowing down the pump. To add a boost-referanced regulator you'd need to not only boost the pump pressure up over what the max fuel pressure would be, but you would also need to add a fuel return line back to the tank.

This is not impossible, but is a little work.

What someone ought to do is referance the pump voltage to the boost pressure. If it's not too taxing on the pump, that solution might circumvent the need for a return line. I have no idea what the ECU would have to say about that though.

I need to search the service manual to see if it gives the output fuel pressure of the OEM pump.

The thought of slightly larger injectors seems to be worth trying. I just got my 1zz throttle body in the mail that I ordered weeks ago. I'll wait to put that on later.

Like I said, someone should try one method and I'll try another. But Peter, you've got to get some instrumentation so that you can see a before and after reading. No more butt dyno. We now know yours measures too high.:laugh:

[Nexus1155]

i think the cars would be better off doing the garm conversion with the fuel system. But there would be an easy way to rig up some electricals to fool the system within a certain range. Worth a shot!!!!

[PETERPOOP]

I need to search the service manual to see if it gives the output fuel pressure of the OEM pump.



Like I said, someone should try one method and I'll try another. But Peter, you've got to get some instrumentation so that you can see a before and after reading. No more butt dyno. We now know yours measures too high.:laugh:

My butt is too sensative I guess. I will have the scangauge II soon. I am willing to try the larger injectors. What about a combination of slightly larger injectors and the 1zz tb?

[LtNoogie]

If you more than one thing at a time, you'll never know which item contributed to the gain or loss in power.

I honestly do not know whether it was my intake, header, exhaust, or pulleys that changed the way the car ran. I did them all at nearly the same time. Maybe one of the mods was useless. I don't know.

[PETERPOOP]

Well I need to look for some 1zz fuel injectors now. I'll try those on, get some numbers, and then later, put the 1zz tb on that I have. Maybe they will equal eachother out?

[dallas]

You guys are doing some really great work at trying to figure out the lean condition. I'm sure there has to be 30 hp with a proper tune.
You would think the fuel pump can handle the volume of fuel needed to run 120hp, I think the problem must be somewhere else. it must be in the management, injectors, etc. I find it hard to believe that the car cannot compensate for a 20 hp increase. Has Blitz responded with anything?

[Nexus1155]

unlikely, but it wont be effective without tuning. You add more air youre going to need more fueling regardless. Might as well toss them both on, youd probably be in a situation a S load better than you are now!!!! Just to test it at least, make sure to have a wideband with you

[PETERPOOP]

no wideband here. you think i got 350$ for a gauge!? ;) i'll get one eventually. I'll have the scangauge on when I put the larger injectors and then eventually the 1zz throttle body.

[PETERPOOP]

Has Blitz responded with anything?

Garm will let us know when they do. He sent them my a/f readings.

[whooppee777]

im going to use my blitz fuel controller to tweak the a/f ratios to where they should b

[kurokoma-kun]

I hear crickets chirping.

Ok well, here are my thoughts.

I'm not convinced that injector volume is the issue... the stockers are rated at 210cc? (someone please correct me if that's wrong) which should be good for 130 hp. But I'm no expert and I guess there's only one real way to find out, so I'll be very interested to see anyone's results with larger injectors (fuel pump, pressure regulator, etc).

The main issue for me is that I have neither the funds, time, access to professional tuning, nor personal interest enough to justify f***ing with the fuel system, at least not right now. Reason 1: the "plug + play" nature of the Blitz kit was one of the primary reasons for it's appeal to me, and I'd kinda like to just race and enjoy the car as-is for a few months. Reason 2: if I was gonna go to that much trouble I've have gone turbo, where the money and effort invested in tuning promises much greater payoff.

Now, a relatively simple mechanical upgrade intrigues me a great deal, which is why I've expressed interest in using my car as the guinea pig for the pulleys NST has said they are willing to develop (overdrive crank + u/d w/p). From what I can gather this set up should also help with any belt slip issues. The question of whether the fuel system can keep up with the increased boost produced has been raised--if it can't, then frankly I might abandon the project at that point... so maybe one of you interested in altering your fuel system woudl be a better candidate... if you think so, you might want to talk to Garm or Mike at NST about it.

[LtNoogie]

KK,

I too would have preferred that this was a pure bolt-on kit but I guess the word tuning must be an analogy to dialing in a radio to get the absolute best performance. While I still have this wild hair up my wazoo, I'm going to research this with consultation from my dyno guy. Believe me, Google and I are good friends.

No offense to your post but I need published numbers now for how our little car was spec'd. I've posted a request for information in the Performance thread. Anybody who can dig up published information is welcome to post it in that thread.

I have access to some of those things you mentioned. Time is tight so it takes me longer to get around to it. (it took me four months to get my gauges all hooked up)

So, have patience. If you see a Blazing Blue AT LB cream your time on YOUR autox course, ask the driver about his fuel system mods. Then refer him to me.:laugh:

[kurokoma-kun]

KK,

I too would have preferred that this was a pure bolt-on kit but I guess the word tuning must be an analogy to dialing in a radio to get the absolute best performance. While I still have this wild hair up my wazoo, I'm going to research this with consultation from my dyno guy. Believe me, Google and I are good friends.

No offense to your post but I need published numbers now for how our little car was spec'd. I've posted a request for information in the Performance thread. Anybody who can dig up published information is welcome to post it in that thread.

I have access to some of those things you mentioned. Time is tight so it takes me longer to get around to it. (it took me four months to get my gauges all hooked up)

So, have patience. If you see a Blazing Blue AT LB cream your time on YOUR autox course, ask the driver about his fuel system mods. Then refer him to me.:laugh:

You asked for opinions of other s/c owners, just my 2 cents. I dunno... I guess if I thought hp was the only route to autocross "victory" I'd have chosen a different car... for now I plan to focus on tightening the loose nut behind the wheel :laugh:. But for me it's all just for fun anyway, and for now I've pretty much had all the "fun" tinkering with the car I care for.

As you were saying yourself just the other day, I'm not eager to be the first to blow up my motor, but who knows, in time I may change my tune too (literally, lol). Besides, when I bought the Blitz kit I was told I could expect up to an additional 30 hp: you are getting 27 hp; if I see similar results from this (relatively) stable and trouble-free upgrade I'll happily say I got a fair shake from Blitz. But as I said, I'll be very interested to see everyone's results with experiments, and sincerely wish everyone the best of luck :smile:

I assume you've been doing some reading around on scionlife too, since they have been using the same engine for longer and therefore are further ahead in their projects. It's tough to sort out the info from the asshattery at times, but good info to be had there.

[eTiMaGo]

Long, since you are the best equipped (SC + Wideband + Scangauge), I'm thinking of a few tests you could do to assess the functionality of the blitz fuel controller.

We need to answer 2 main questions, I believe:

1) Is the Blitz fuel controller working as expected, trying to force more fuel in the system?
2) If so, why does it not seem to do it at WOT (hence the lean condition)?

If I am not mistaken, the Scangauge should be able to display long term and short term fuel trims, right? I think this is the key to see how it is trying to fight the stock ECU.

As I mentioned in the brainstorming thread, any piggyback that tries to make the mixture richer, will be foiled by the O2 sensors, as these will detect the lower AFR. The way they feed this information back to the ECU is through the aforementioned fuel trims.

So, what I think we should do is set up a baseline fuel trim. Please keep in mind I am saying this out of theory and just a decent understanding of this ECU! Anyway, the first step would be make sure that you can actually get a reading for the fuel trims on your scangauge! If that's the case, the next step would be to clear the ECU's stored information so we can start with a clean slate. You could disconnect the battery, or pull out the EFI fuse which I believe is in the fuse box that's in the engine bay.

As a result fuel trims should be both at 0. Next, you'd need to drive around normally, but with the SC switch to OFF, and if possible with the fuel controller disconnected. This way we can know what is the default trims that your stock engine setup will generate. I am not sure over what period of time the long term fuel trim is calculated, but it is essentially an averaging of the short term trim over time. I'd guess a day of normal driving should be enough. Also, during this time, you can use your wideband to verify that the AF ratio will be pretty steady around 14.7 as this is what the ECU strives to achieve.

So once we have this data, it would be time to see how the Blitz fuel controller reacts when the car is in closed loop, SC activated and car driven in a normal fashion. So, reset the ECU, reconnect the fuel controller, set the SC to LOW, and drive! Try to avoid mashing the pedal and going over 4000RPM too as these would trigger open loop mode and we want to keep that out of the equation.
If the fuel controller is working as expected, it will try to force a rich mixture, which the ECU will then counteract. You will *probably* see a rich mixture on your wideband at first, until the ECU calculates the correct fuel trim to counter that. So, after a day of driving around like this, we would need to compare the fuel trim values to our baseline. If we see pretty big negative fuel trim values, this means the fuel controller has worked as expected, and the ECU has responded as expected.

If the fuel trim is unchanged from stock, then there are two possible explanations: The fuel controller is not working, or it is smart enough to know to leave the ECU alone when in closed loop mode (not likely)

Now for Part 2, WOT diagnostics, unfortunately I can find very little information about open loop operation in the manuals, so it'd be quite hard to test anything properly.

Only thing I can think of, is to compare your wideband readings at WOT with the fuel controller unplugged, and then again with it plugged in, under the same conditions (reset ECU before each test) and see if there is any difference in the readings.

I know we can't really compare readings between our cars which are modified quite differently, plus the USDM and Thai ECUs are different, but I have a basic narrowband AFR gauge, and I can see, when I push the car into open loop, the needle jumps up to 12:1, even as rich as 11:1 sometimes...

So... do you feel like giving that a try?

Oh and on the subject of the stock injectors reaching their limit, those work using PWM, I think the only way to see their duty cycle would be to connect an oscilloscope or similar? And, even if you were to put in bigger injectors, I think you'd hit the same hurdle, the ECU will detect too much fuel and trim it back. Although, under open loop, it may just work... hmmmmmm

[eTiMaGo]

actually... better ignore all that for now, it seems the long term fuel trip is nonvolatile so resetting the ECU will not affect it, you'd need the proper Toyota scan tool to reset it :frown:

[Doc Zaius]

Wow... Thomas writes a lot! :tongue:

You guys (& gals) impress me... lots of good ideas and willingness. I'm more in KK's boat though... things have been ok for me (more-or-less), and I'm hoping to do as little as possible from now on. Wow, I'm lazy!

BTW, after having driving around with my 'charger turned off most of the winter and having some weird idling issues, my Toyota tech said my fuel trim was at -15% (trying to lean it out). Food for thought. I'll take it to him again later in the spring once I've been driving around with the S/C on for a while and see if there's any change.

[LtNoogie]

If I am not mistaken, the Scangauge should be able to display long term and short term fuel trims, right? I think this is the key to see how it is trying to fight the stock ECU.

I did not think the ScanGauge could display fuel trim. I'll have to look it up in the manual. If anyone knows how to program it to do so, you can save me the research.

What kind of units would it be displayed as?

[LtNoogie]

Ok, you guys wait until my next dyno pull after my tuning. When you see my 119HP up from the 117HP on the last pull, you'll be jealous.:tongue:

[bearda]

now this guy also works at the shop in northern virginia which has a high reutation so this isnt some averge joe, hes a tech at this shop that knows what hes talking about.


Which shop is he running out of? Ptuning?

[turboecho2005]

I don't know if they have a standalone and a plug in play but ive only seen standalone, but im sure you can wire it in tandem.

did you install it on a yaris or an echo?

Megasquirt can be used both as a standalone or a piggyback but its not plug and play.

It was used as a piggyback in my echo when i still has the 1nzfe motor. Timing was still controlled via the stock ecu. The megasquirt took care of fuel.

There was an issue trying to control the VVTi (this was back in 2006) but i am sure someone has figured it out by now. However controlling VVT on the blacktop motor wasn't an issue.

[HTM Yaris]

I think you peeps are looking in the wrong place . I bet if you put your stock exhaust back on you will find your HP and torque . Remember that thing called "back pressure" . You peeps have opened your exhaust too much , IMO .
Opening an exhaust too much will result in a loss of HP and torque . Either you need more airflow to fit your exhaust or you need to downsize your exhaust to create the proper back pressure .

Want proof ? Just check out Noogie vs Poop setup . Poop has the larger exhaust and lower numbers .......

[LtNoogie]

Want proof ? Just check out Noogie vs Poop setup . Poop has the larger exhaust and lower numbers .......

Ooo... don't remind him of that more that three more times!:smile:

[kurokoma-kun]

Ok, you guys wait until my next dyno pull after my tuning. When you see my 119HP up from the 117HP on the last pull, you'll be jealous.:tongue:

*sigh*

it's true :rolleyes:

[PETERPOOP]

I think you peeps are looking in the wrong place . I bet if you put your stock exhaust back on you will find your HP and torque . Remember that thing called "back pressure" . You peeps have opened your exhaust too much , IMO .
Opening an exhaust too much will result in a loss of HP and torque . Either you need more airflow to fit your exhaust or you need to downsize your exhaust to create the proper back pressure .

Want proof ? Just check out Noogie vs Poop setup . Poop has the larger exhaust and lower numbers .......

I think you are wrong. You also forgot that my dyno run didn't go to 6500 RPMs like noogie's. You can see in my chart that the HP was still rising at a strong rate. It stopped at 6200 RPMs. Also, I was on a dynapack, not dynojet. Dynos are different.

I am going to dyno on a dynojet soon, run it to 6500rpms, and I can guarantee you it will be higher than 117hp on the dynojet.

I do agree that my larger exhaust lost torque, but HP, especially in the higher RPMs, naw.

But I am going to be running a 2" 24" resonator and a hi flow cat soon, so that will probably bring me some back pressure/torque back.

[Nexus1155]

I dunno, I mean it is a small engine, but only upping it to a 2.5 exhaust... I mean i can see a 3" losing serious pressure because its only good past 500hp, maybe you should try a 1 inch exhaust? LOL BRAAAAAT KABOOM!

[PETERPOOP]

I have 2.25" exhaust, not 2.5".

[dallas]

I agree that a smaller pipe diameter may help, like 2 inches, but your terminology is wrong. Backpressure is never a good thing, you do not want back pressure for ultimate horspower. What you want is no back pressure but fast exhaust gas velocity, if you go too big on the pipe diameter you loose the exhast gas velocity and the coresponding hp and torque.

I think you peeps are looking in the wrong place . I bet if you put your stock exhaust back on you will find your HP and torque . Remember that thing called "back pressure" . You peeps have opened your exhaust too much , IMO .
Opening an exhaust too much will result in a loss of HP and torque . Either you need more airflow to fit your exhaust or you need to downsize your exhaust to create the proper back pressure .

Want proof ? Just check out Noogie vs Poop setup . Poop has the larger exhaust and lower numbers .......

[HTM Yaris]

Back pressure is a good thing . Some not alot . Without Backpressure(BP) there isn't any exhaust gas velocity . If no BP was a good thing all the real race cars would have exhaust gas being released straight from the exhaust port . ( Yes I realize that exhaust pipes also evacuate heat )


Try this , go turn on your garden hose . See how it flows ? To increase the velocity of the flow you can do 2 things 1. increase the volume of water or 2. partially cover the end of the hose with your thumb (creating BP) .

[largeorangefont]

I didnt read the entire thread but think I have a decent idea of what is going on.

Here is the first thing I will say here:

Comparing results from DIFFERENT DYNOS is not accurate and a waste of time.

Different dyno manufacturers read differently, and ambient conditions change from day to day. If you have dyno results before and after a mod on the SAME dyno, generally the gain (or loss) you see is close to accurate.

At this point, it looks like that if you want to fully realize the gains from a blitz SC, you will need addtional tuning.

A fuel controller may work, but if timing is still retarded, you are only going to LOSE more power. We need to find out what that box does. Lets say all it does is retard ignition timing. Then I would say remove the bot, get a fuel controller and adjust the fueling curve, run cooler spark plugs and always run premium fuel.

Adding a rising rate FP regulator is NOT a solution for a returnless car. There is really no mechanical fix to solve this particular problem. You are going to want a piggyback ECU or a reflash.

You guys are not going to fix this with fuel system mods. I assure you, you are not running out of fuel with a ~30 HP gain.

Peterpoop,

Your exhaust is fine, I would not worry about it. If you can get something to view your ignition advance in the meantime, do so.

[LtNoogie]

This is what Camelll posted as to what the fuel controller hooks into.

Blitz uses: RPM, power (ig/on), 4 injectors, air flow, 2 grounds, accelerator position sensor. etimago could you post a pinout of the ecu locations?

ECU Description/ Wiring Description/ ECU Loc/ ECU color
IFG1/ RPM/ C20-81/ Yellow
IGSW/ Power (ig/on)/ A21-28/ Red
L2/ Injector/ C20-107/ Gray
L1/ Injector/ C20-108/ Lt. Blue
VG/ Air Flow/ C20-118/ Gray
E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown
L3/ Injector/ C20-106/ Pink
L4/ Injector/ C20-105/ Blue
VPA/ Accel Pos Sensor/ A21-55/ Red
E01/ Ground/ C20-45/ Brown

[largeorangefont]

Cali yaris got in contact with blitz and blitz said the fuel controller is just that and does not do anything to timing. Noogie thinks the timing is being retarding because the knock sensor is picking up pre ignition.:iono:

Is the black box wired to the boost control knob? If so then the boost selection could retart the timing.

If not, then he could be right. I have a knockbox that we could listen to the engine with and see if it is indeed knocking.

[LtNoogie]

Oops, sorry Mike. I did not realize you responded!

[LtNoogie]

The boost control knob determines when the blower kicks in...25% throttle position, 50% throttle position, or 75% throttle position.

[LtNoogie]

Is the black box wired to the boost control knob? If so then the boost selection could retart the timing.

If not, then he could be right. I have a knockbox that we could listen to the engine with and see if it is indeed knocking.

Where in the OC are you? If I don't chicken out due to this AFR, I might just run into you at Willow Springs on April 10. You can see what the car is doing on and off boost.

[largeorangefont]

Well I need to look for some 1zz fuel injectors now. I'll try those on, get some numbers, and then later, put the 1zz tb on that I have. Maybe they will equal eachother out?

Nope. I assure you that your HP will be lower with larger injectors, and the car will run bad off boost and when cold.

[largeorangefont]

Where in the OC are you? If I don't chicken out due to this AFR, I might just run into you at Willow Springs on April 10. You can see what the car is doing on and off boost.

Irvine area.

I still need to confirm I can go and get signed up for the 10th.

[largeorangefont]

What are the pinouts for the black box and does it connect to the boost switch? my guess is yes.

The next step is who is brave enough to disconnect a couple wires and find out exactly what the black box does :)

[largeorangefont]

OK I found the pinouts for the black box. It just connect to fuel related components. We will have to do some data logging to see why the car is pulling timing under boost.

Long,

If you can, warm up your car and do a couple pulls in 2nd or 3rd.

Then pull the negative battery connector, or pull the fuse to the ECU. Pump the brakes a few times and reconnect the fuse or battery.

Go out and do another couple pulls and see if the timing you see increases, or increases and then decreases. Let us know the differences.

[LtNoogie]

Ok, it will have to be Friday evening. Did you see in an earlier post that with the S/C switch set to OFF, I see timing in the low to mid 20s? This is even uder heavy load.

[largeorangefont]

Ok, it will have to be Friday evening. Did you see in an earlier post that with the S/C switch set to OFF, I see timing in the low to mid 20s? This is even uder heavy load.

Yea I saw that. Off is no boost at all right? What AFR do you see when it is off?

[LtNoogie]

14.7 - 14.9 but I'll do some runs tonight when I have to climb several hills.

no boost pressure

[Nexus1155]

thats what you are suppose to see when it is off. I usually get 14.5-14.7 when cruising in the truck. WOT goes to like 12.7 - 13.2. Factory did a decent job tuning fuel already

[PETERPOOP]

Ok. So I won't be doing the larger injectors and 1zz throttle body. I'll be waiting for long to get the numbers on friday afternoon and see what largeorange has to say then.

[dallas]

Backpressure does not create exhaust gas velocity, if the pipe diameter is too big the air moving down the pipe slows down and cools down which in turn makes the air molecules less active slowing down the flow. The reason race cars don't release at the exhaust port is because exhaust velocity actualy help draw air out of the cylinder head, but to get that you need the right diameter and length of pipe to create the exhaust velocity, what you don't want is any back pressure to slow down the flow, You have the right idea just not the right terminology, there are some really good papers on exhaust design and performance done by ASTM I belive, that tell you exactly that.


Back pressure is a good thing . Some not alot . Without Backpressure(BP) there isn't any exhaust gas velocity . If no BP was a good thing all the real race cars would have exhaust gas being released straight from the exhaust port . ( Yes I realize that exhaust pipes also evacuate heat )


Try this , go turn on your garden hose . See how it flows ? To increase the velocity of the flow you can do 2 things 1. increase the volume of water or 2. partially cover the end of the hose with your thumb (creating BP) .

[LtNoogie]

Ok, I just spent a half hour on the phone with dyno guy. He does not recommend that I start with larger injectors or more powerful fuel pump. He recommends a boost-sensitive adjustable fuel pressure regulator.



Thanks to CTScott, I found the OEM fuel pressure regulator. It is not in a place that is easily replaced by an aftermarket unit. Since the fuel system's pressure is now maxed out at the 44.1 to 49.7 psi put out by the OEM regulator, using another regulator after this unit to get higher pressure is impossible.

Dyno guy now admits that replacement of the fuel pump (like Garm's turbo install) or replacement of the stock injectors is probably in order if the goal is to get more fuel to the engine during boost.

Calculating the proper injectors size, using the many online injector calculators, is a little bit daunting but I'll use them all until I can understand the concept and get consistent results.

I'd rather understand the science behind the proper selection of injectors rather than just shotgunning any device in and hoping that they do the job adequately.

[largeorangefont]

Thanks to CTScott, I found the OEM fuel pressure regulator. It is not in a place that is easily replaced by an aftermarket unit. Since the fuel system's pressure is now maxed out at the 44.1 to 49.7 psi put out by the OEM regulator, using another regulator after this unit to get higher pressure is impossible.

Dyno guy now admits that replacement of the fuel pump (like Garm's turbo install) or replacement of the stock injectors is probably in order if the goal is to get more fuel to the engine during boost.

Calculating the proper injectors size, using the many online injector calculators, is a little bit daunting but I'll use them all until I can understand the concept and get consistent results.

I'd rather understand the science behind the proper selection of injectors rather than just shotgunning any device in and hoping that they do the job adequately.

If that is truly the problem, you could try a boost-a-pump. You need a scan gauge or tool that can tell you injector duty cycle to know for sure if you need anything.

You guys will not be able to solve this by just swapping out parts. You will solve one problem and create 5 more with bigger injectors.

[eTiMaGo]

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15488

this might be worth trying *just* to see what it does to the AFR... forcing the car to be in warmup mode sounds like a very half-assed (quarter-assed?) way of tuning a car, but desperate times can call for desperate measures

[LtNoogie]

If that is truly the problem, you could try a boost-a-pump. You need a scan gauge or tool that can tell you injector duty cycle to know for sure if you need anything.

You guys will not be able to solve this by just swapping out parts. You will solve one problem and create 5 more with bigger injectors.

What is a boost-a-pump? Can you post a link to a comparable product online? I have not seen injector duty cycle as available for display on the ScanGauge. I am guessing that some instrumentation would have to be connected to the injector wires to measure duty cycle? This intrument would have to be sturdy enough to measure during WOT?

[Doc Zaius]

Yeah, ScanGauge definitely does not do injector duty cycle. What would? Some type of logger. That would certainly help narrow down some of the issues!

[TOUGEghost]

What is a boost-a-pump? Can you post a link to a comparable product online?

Here's the link:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D2350&N=700+4294925239+4294839053+4294822097+115&autoview=sku

It increases voltage to the fuel pump as boost increases. Seems like it could be a good solution for moderate boost levels.

[PETERPOOP]

Interesting. Since it only increases when boost increases, are those intervals too short for the ECU to catch on?

[LtNoogie]

Here's the link:

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=MSD%2D2350&N=700+4294925239+4294839053+4294822097+115&autoview=sku

It increases voltage to the fuel pump as boost increases. Seems like it could be a good solution for moderate boost levels.

Thanks, I had seen that earlier. My thought is that a properly working fuel pressure regulator will hold the current pressure unless it fails. My water pressure regulator at the inlet to my home maintains a constant 80psi across a wide band of street pressure.

Any mechanical engineers out there?

[dallas]

Ive seen the Boost-a-pump used on a buddys Mustang and it works well, if you need to squeeze a bit more out of the fuel pump. If Richard Holdners Intake /exhaust combo made more hp than the supercharger it must be using more fuel to acheive this. I don't think it's the fuel delivery, but maybe the management of the delivery thats causing a lean condition. I wish you pioneers luck to figure this out.

[jkuchta]

The ARK Design MFD has the provision to display injector duty cycle. I'm going to try and wire it up this weekend!


An Air/Water intercooler might be possible with the blitz kit, but it will require some fabrication (probably a lot!).

[cali yaris]

I believe the Blitz R-Vit can control a/f with additional percentage.

[largeorangefont]

What would happen if someone were to add an intercooler to this set up. What if the pre-ignition is not being caused by the octane but by heat created from the forced induction? I know a lot of people say that an intercooler is not necessary on the blitz but anyone that owns a blitz that has touched the intake pipe on a summer day after driving knows it will burn the shit out you.

With that being said what would be needed to add an air to air intercooler to this set up? Is it even possible? Would it even be feasible?

Horribly expensive and probably not feasible with the blitz kit (or ANY roots style supercharger kit). At 5-7 PSI an intercooler is not really needed.

You would be better off spending money on a way to tune the car.

[LtNoogie]

I thought that Open Loop meant that the ECU was not making adustments to the engine parameters. Like when you are in DFCO. Today when crusing on the freeway, I switched my ScanGauge to show the OPEN/CLOSED loop state of the engine.

Anytime I went into boost, even slight boost, the ScanGauge showed OPEN Loop. If that is true, what would cause the ignition to retard? This is confusing. I could not repeat this on surface streets and boosting lightly.

I'm still working on a new camera mount and will video the gauge cluster and ScanGauge to demonstrate this new mode of operations. Wierd.

[yaris-me]

I thought that Open Loop meant that the ECU was not making adustments to the engine parameters. Like when you are in DFCO. Today when crusing on the freeway, I switched my ScanGauge to show the OPEN/CLOSED loop state of the engine.

Anytime I went into boost, even slight boost, the ScanGauge showed OPEN Loop. If that is true, what would cause the ignition to retard? This is confusing. I could not repeat this on surface streets and boosting lightly. Hope this helps.:smile:

I'm still working on a new camera mount and will video the gauge cluster and ScanGauge to demonstrate this new mode of operations. Wierd.

If the senors detect detonation (knock or ping), the ECU will retard timing. Raising the octane in the fuel will help with detonation. There is also the use of a methanol water injection system.

[largeorangefont]

In open loop the ECU is *probably* not making fueling adjustments, but it depends on what is happening. If there is severe knock or other problems, you will shift to another fueling map, or the ECU will make fueling corrections.

The ECU is always adjusting timing regardless of open or closed loop.

Did you reset the ECU and drive the car to see what the timing was on a fresh reset?

What is needed here is full Toyota OBD software. That will allow you to watch everything the ECU is doing.

Or like I said, we can put my knock light on the car.

If you are indeed knocking, first think I would try is one heat range colder plugs.

[LtNoogie]

I have not heard audible evidence of knocking like I did before I filled up with 91 octane. The only reason that I am guessing there is knocking is the ingition timing being retarded. I know others have to add octane boosters to stop their audible knocking.

I'll reset the ECU on Sunday and try the tests suggested.

[eTiMaGo]

I thought that Open Loop meant that the ECU was not making adustments to the engine parameters. Like when you are in DFCO. Today when crusing on the freeway, I switched my ScanGauge to show the OPEN/CLOSED loop state of the engine.

Anytime I went into boost, even slight boost, the ScanGauge showed OPEN Loop. If that is true, what would cause the ignition to retard? This is confusing. I could not repeat this on surface streets and boosting lightly.

I'm still working on a new camera mount and will video the gauge cluster and ScanGauge to demonstrate this new mode of operations. Wierd.

that's really interesting! In open loop, the ECU is supposed to stop trying to calculate the correct AFR on the fly, and instead rely on an old-fashioned fuel map (where this much RPM = this much injector duty cycle), and this is the situation where a piggyback should have no problem to alter this fuelling. (i.e. ZPI's method by forcing open loop with a CEL)

I am not yet fully familiar how the car calculates ignition advance in normal closed lop mode (apart from retarding it on detecting knock), but it most likely either has a map for it too, or just pegs it to maximum retardation, in which case the open loop operation is pretty much a "safe mode" no matter what.

So, if this blitz controller is able to invoke open loop *without* tripping a CEL, it certainly should allow a lot more flexibility! The question is, how does it do it, and how can we emulate this to use with other piggyback systems... *thinking cap goes back on* Gonna add some related musings/manual findings to the other thread

[largeorangefont]

I have not heard audible evidence of knocking like I did before I filled up with 91 octane. The only reason that I am guessing there is knocking is the ingition timing being retarded. I know others have to add octane boosters to stop their audible knocking.

I'll reset the ECU on Sunday and try the tests suggested.

Yea you are going to need to run 91 all the time now. Do you have the wiring diagram for your black box? It sounds like my suspicion that Blitz changed what the black box does might be true according to Camelll.

[eTiMaGo]

Are you using the r-vit? If so get on it and let us know how it works.



This information is for the R-fit and not the r-vit and (can be used in conjunction though) is from 2004 but it is the latest updated list they have on the blitz website (http://www.blitzperformancesales.com/techsupport/pdf/r-fit.pdf) page 25, does not show the ncp91. This could be a little out of date but :iono:.

I am curious if someone is gonna try the r-vit though to see if it is gonna work.

It should work, in theory when you're in open loop you can tweak all you want within the limitations of the fuel pressure and injectors?

Yea you are going to need to run 91 all the time now. Do you have the wiring diagram for your black box? It sounds like my suspicion that Blitz changed what the black box does might be true according to Camelll.

Yeah I am still not sure how the clutch gets the information from the gear... sounds like it ties in to the starter circuitry (the part which requires you to press the clutch on a manual, or have the auto in P or N before the engine will crank).

Anyway, looking at the new data Pavel logged, it looks like there is a correlation between throttle % and closed loop mode. It was a pretty short run but it looks like above 75% throttle, the system switches to open loop. So, perhaps the blitz unit is reporting 100% throttle to the ECU no matter what, once it kicks in the SC?
Now this is something that Long can check with the scangauge, see what is the reported throttle angle once the SC kicks in... If it jumps from actual throttle position (say 50%) to a much higher value, then bingo, we know how to trigger open loop safely :biggrin:

[changchewsoon]

Hi,

I hope its OK for me to post here although I'm running a boosted Vios rather then a charged one, I have a Greddy Informeter Touch which plugs in to the OBDII connector to monitor all engine parameters, and I've also got a Innovate LC-1 Wideband O2 to monitor my air/fuel ratio.

I just want to share with everyone that by using E-Manage Blue, my tuner is able to get the ECU to run at a constant A/F ratio of 12 during WOT and a AF ratio of 14 during close loop. My wideband O2 display confirms this.

I'm currently using the base + ignition + injector harness for the E-Manage.

Hope the dyno chart is able to provide a better idea, hope it helps.

Please do not hesitate to ask me if you need any information, I'll try my best to share.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/images/funkygarage/960/Toyota-Vios-Turbo-Dyno-Chart_thumb.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RQcAxTVtNRs/Sc5uxeBCqJI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/EZjbrhcW94M/s1600-h/Toyota-Vios-Turbo-Dyno-Chart.JPG

[largeorangefont]

It should work, in theory when you're in open loop you can tweak all you want within the limitations of the fuel pressure and injectors?



Yeah I am still not sure how the clutch gets the information from the gear... sounds like it ties in to the starter circuitry (the part which requires you to press the clutch on a manual, or have the auto in P or N before the engine will crank).

Anyway, looking at the new data Pavel logged, it looks like there is a correlation between throttle % and closed loop mode. It was a pretty short run but it looks like above 75% throttle, the system switches to open loop. So, perhaps the blitz unit is reporting 100% throttle to the ECU no matter what, once it kicks in the SC?
Now this is something that Long can check with the scangauge, see what is the reported throttle angle once the SC kicks in... If it jumps from actual throttle position (say 50%) to a much higher value, then bingo, we know how to trigger open loop safely :biggrin:

Yes, Long could check that, but I think the system is more sophisticated than that. There are many other systems that require correct and accurate reporting of throttle position.

There is more than one metric that triggers open loop. Generally speaking there is RPM, Load, and TPS. Depending on the ECU, the car could be using one or all 3 as reference points.

[largeorangefont]

Hi,

I hope its OK for me to post here although I'm running a boosted Vios rather then a charged one, I have a Greddy Informeter Touch which plugs in to the OBDII connector to monitor all engine parameters, and I've also got a Innovate LC-1 Wideband O2 to monitor my air/fuel ratio.

I just want to share with everyone that by using E-Manage Blue, my tuner is able to get the ECU to run at a constant A/F ratio of 12 during WOT and a AF ratio of 14 during close loop. My wideband O2 display confirms this.

I'm currently using the base + ignition + injector harness for the E-Manage.

Hope the dyno chart is able to provide a better idea, hope it helps.

Please do not hesitate to ask me if you need any information, I'll try my best to share.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/images/funkygarage/960/Toyota-Vios-Turbo-Dyno-Chart_thumb.JPG
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_RQcAxTVtNRs/Sc5uxeBCqJI/AAAAAAAAAzQ/EZjbrhcW94M/s1600-h/Toyota-Vios-Turbo-Dyno-Chart.JPG


This is an example of the AFR you want to see on a WOT pull guys.

What are you injector duty cycles, and are you still running stock injectors?

[changchewsoon]

I'm currently running stock injectors, but I have 2 additional injectors soldered near to the throttle body controlled by the piggy back.

If I'm not mistaken, the opening/closing time of the injectors are at around 20ms during WOT near the RPM limit.

The duty cycle is around 87% for the stock injectors during WOT near the RPM limit. I always thought that anything above 80% is bad however we've done many hours of extensive testing and the newer version of the Toyota VVT-i injectors are actually quite reliable.

We've also checked with TRD Thailand, as their Turbo Vios are also running the same stock injectors, they too have also done extensive testing on the injectors to ensure their reliability.

However, I'm not too sure whether is there any difference between JDM and USDM specs though.

[largeorangefont]

I'm currently running stock injectors, but I have 2 additional injectors soldered near to the throttle body controlled by the piggy back.

If I'm not mistaken, the opening/closing time of the injectors are at around 20ms during WOT near the RPM limit.

The duty cycle is around 87% for the stock injectors during WOT near the RPM limit. I always thought that anything above 80% is bad however we've done many hours of extensive testing and the newer version of the Toyota VVT-i injectors are actually quite reliable.

We've also checked with TRD Thailand, as their Turbo Vios are also running the same stock injectors, they too have also done extensive testing on the injectors to ensure their reliability.

However, I'm not too sure whether is there any difference between JDM and USDM specs though.

Great info. Just to clarify, the 87% duty is NOT while using your extra injectors correct?

Most modern injectors you can run in the low 90% range without issue, so I would say you are fine at your current power level.

[changchewsoon]

Yes actually it is 87% duty while using the extra injectors.

I do agree with you on running on the low 90% range for modern injectors, as a matter of fact we actually pushed the stock injectors pass the 97% mark and it actually holds up pretty well.

[LtNoogie]

I did not get a chance to run the test and I'm off to D.C. for a week of work.

[Loren]

Without taking the time to read through this whole thread... some thoughts.

What does "open loop" mean? It simply means "not closed loop". Closed loop means that the ECU is using feedback from the O2 sensor to fine tune the fuel mixture and keep it at stoich (or, I suspect maybe even a tad lean on the Yaris, but that's just a guess). In open loop, the ECU is most definitely still making adjustments and still has complete control of timing and fuel, it's just ignoring the O2 input and using intake air temp (temp affects density, a critical factor), air flow, and RPM to look up the appropriate fueling and timing in a table. By design, this will always be a rich mixture, and timing will be "conservative", similar to that of a distributor with no vacuum advance.

Now, I was thinking about all of this worry about being lean on these SC cars. (because I noticed one for sale for $2500 and had a fleeting moment where I was thinking about it... until I remembered that I don't have the money) Remember, even though your car is "forced induction" with the SC kit, it's a VERY light boost. What is it? 4psi? Maybe 6psi? Guess what? The real problems with fuel and spark retard don't happen until way beyond there. You guys are applying the kind of fear that one should have with a medium-high boost turbo to a low-boost supercharger, and I really don't think it's warranted at all.

I'd rock a Blitz SC right out of the box. Run premium fuel and be happy. Life is too short for such paranoia!

[Nexus1155]

See, but thats the thing, you can get one of these out of the box be happy and be fine, but not run optimally. I think thats what everyone is looking for. And it is such a small amount of boost that supercharger is running.

What I am trying to think now is that if you do have extra injectors it might be the only feasable option to get the AFR correct for now until someone finds an interceptor for the O2 Sensors, but will it cause a rich condition and trigger a CEL as well!. Damn these cars to hell

[Loren]

See, but thats the thing, you can get one of these out of the box be happy and be fine, but not run optimally. I think thats what everyone is looking for. And it is such a small amount of boost that supercharger is running.

What I am trying to think now is that if you do have extra injectors it might be the only feasable option to get the AFR correct for now until someone finds an interceptor for the O2 Sensors, but will it cause a rich condition and trigger a CEL as well!. Damn these cars to hell
Okay, I'll buy that (though I don't think there's THAT much more to gain by tuning the fuel WITHOUT adding more boost). But, the topic of this thread was, I thought... "worry" about being too lean. Worrying, I assumed about possible detonation and engine damage, not about leaving a little bit of power on the table.

One last thought: Tuning to get every last HP out of an engine is an art as much as it is a science, it's hard to do. If you screw up in the process of tuning it, you can do some damage. And once you've tuned it, you're right on the ragged edge of... trouble. Unless you're running a race team with a budget to replace the engine when it breaks, it's a lot smarter to go ahead and leave a little bit of performance untapped. Leave some margin for error. Leave the tune such that if your fuel happens to be 88.5 octane one day instead of 91, the engine still won't detonate. Out of the box, the Blitz is giving you 20% more power than stock... be happy! Be RELIABLY happy! (isn't that why you bought a Toyota?)

What's left on the table with the Blitz, anyway? Another 2%. Is it really worth all of the extra money, hassle and potential reliability issues for 4-5 hp? Every wire you cut and splice, every wire you add, every piece of hardware you add is another potential point of failure on your car.

[PETERPOOP]

They are saying there is possibly 20-30hp to gain with a tune.

[Loren]

They are saying there is possibly 20-30hp to gain with a tune.
I'll believe that when I see it.

Let me qualify that. The bolt-on, out-of-the box Blitz SC kit with fully tuned and optimized fuel and spark. The initial installation is only good for about 25%, or 25-30 hp. No way is optimizing the fuel and spark going to DOUBLE that. You'll find another 3-8%... maybe as much as 10% or so, just like you would by tuning the car without the SC. That's the factory's margin of safety that you're playing with.

Now, you might see something close to that with a lot of OTHER additional mods, like a complete free-flowing intake, larger TB, better flowing intake manifold, some head work, a good header and a complete free-flowing exhaust. But, that's an awful lot of other stuff that doesn't really fall into the category of "fuel and spark tuning". And, even with all of that, I still don't think you're going to DOUBLE the output of the SC without raising the level of boost.

[Nexus1155]

Ehhhh I don't know about factual numbers, but if you are running stoich on a supercharger you are being robbed of power.

Get the fuel to the correct AFR and increase ignition as it will be more allowable, you will be golden. But obviously at this point you know you are being robbed of precious power that you could have.

Tuning takes some skill and knowledge, but it is not a rocket science.


As Loren said as well you would need to upgrade the flowing parts of this engine. I think the real kicker is to see the results after the throttle body upgrade..

[eTiMaGo]

as far as I understand, 14.7 stoichical air fuel ratio is the sweet spot for best catalytic converter effiency, not necessarily power?

But yes, Loren does have a good point, tuning for maximum power does reduce the safety/reliability overhead that Toyota has engineered into this car. Caveat Emptor, as the saying goes

[kurokoma-kun]

I still don't think you're going to DOUBLE the output of the SC without raising the level of boost.

Ok, well I do like what Loren said about leaving sleeping superchargers lie, as I said the same thing a few pages back :laugh:

BUT, since he raised the topic of added boost, and mad science also appeals to me (and we have already strayed so far from the original topic) I'd appreciate it if you'd all give opinions on my theoretical question... NST is considering developing a set of pullies for the s/c application (overdrive crank and underdrive water pump, the only configuration that will fit in the given space). Mike estimates the combination of the two could produce an additional 2 psi of boost, or up to 20 whp. The way I understand it, boost works on a geometric progression--you get more power out of those last 2 psi than the first 2 in other words--so these pullies could nearly double the hp ouput.

I expressed interest in letting my car be the guinea pig--nothing difficult about changing out some pullies--but no one can say for sure whether the fuel system can keep up, and for all the reasons mentioned I hesitate to tackle a fuel system revamp...

Based on what you have all derived from this discussion, what are your opinions? Could I at least go ahead and be the test mule without too much danger to the engine?

I think we decided the fuel injectors are max 230cc, max fuel pressure at the rail is 46.9 psi, but even with these figures I'll be damned if I can find any way to calculate the max hp for sure.

[kurokoma-kun]

Oh i know, thanks! :smile: I want to buy that one yarisdarkness is parting out but I think he's still organizing prices and so forth... if I dont hear soon I already have one picked out on ebay.

The NST pullies are still in the R+D phase anyway, I talked it over with Garm before this thread came up, so I plan to continue gathering info and insights before committing to anything.

[Nexus1155]

What kind of oil does everyone use here? That seems like a lot of sludge buildup...

If the ECU is the way people say it is it will compensate for the extra fuel to bring it to 14.7 when you add more air to the system. If you are worried about the injectors duty, upgrade to TC injectors for a little extra security. But even with that little added boost, it should bring you to about where a turbo with 6psi of power has. So It has been done power wise before, and all in all you should be good to go? :)

[Loren]

Kuro, bumping the boost up to 8psi is where you start having the real FI headaches. I wouldn't recommend being the guinea pig for this unless you have the means to really monitor things AND deal with everything that's likely to come up, like needing more fuel, needing less ignition advance, and possibly even the need for intercooling or water injection to reduce the charge temperature.

Keep in mind that Blitz is a big company that did their homework, and did their R&D and testing in-house before putting a product on the market. NST is not at the same level, and they're asking you to help with their development at YOUR own risk.

As to the power question, the increase in power is going to be somewhat proportional to the increase in pressure... with 14.7 being the basis, no zero. So, if you've got 4 psi of boost, that's a 27% increase in air. You'll lose some of that due to having to compress the charge in the intake piping and manifold, etc, so you probably don't see a full 27% increase in air introduced to the cylinder. So, maybe 20-25%? Which is about what people are seeing on the dyno from the Blitz kit, right?

Bump that up by 2 psi and you're at 6psi, or 40.8% over atmospheric pressure. So, you could see as much as 40% more power, but realistically, 30-35%.

Numbers are a funny thing. Much depends on whether you want to be optimistic or pessimistic in your estimates.

There's a reason why the Blitz kit is limited in the amount of boost it delivers. If it was EASY to reliably provide more boost and more power, they'd do it!

[kurokoma-kun]

There's a reason why the Blitz kit is limited in the amount of boost it delivers. If it was EASY to reliably provide more boost and more power, they'd do it!

Thanks for the analysis. Yep, the "easy" factor is why I chose the Blitz kit in the first place (well, that and the low end torque :biggrin:).

When I talked with Garm about the NST pullies we were hoping they might be another bolt-on application like a compressor itself--this is pretty much the only thing customers like me are gonna want to buy.

Well, I dunno... I think it might be biting off more than I care to chew... but the idea is still out there for folks willing to overhaul the fuel and engine management systems but are looking for a way to make additional boost.

[Nexus1155]

lol your probably using regular crap oil then, I would recommend switching to Mobil 1 Synthetic, it should solve all of that gunked up problems

[largeorangefont]

Now, I was thinking about all of this worry about being lean on these SC cars. (because I noticed one for sale for $2500 and had a fleeting moment where I was thinking about it... until I remembered that I don't have the money) Remember, even though your car is "forced induction" with the SC kit, it's a VERY light boost. What is it? 4psi? Maybe 6psi? Guess what? The real problems with fuel and spark retard don't happen until way beyond there. You guys are applying the kind of fear that one should have with a medium-high boost turbo to a low-boost supercharger, and I really don't think it's warranted at all.

I'd rock a Blitz SC right out of the box. Run premium fuel and be happy. Life is too short for such paranoia!

This is what I said the the beginning of the thread. These guys are not going to blow their cars up, they are just not optimal. They would get better mileage and more power under the curve with more agressive timing and richer AFRs, VS. the current setup of leaner AFRs and conservative timing.

[largeorangefont]

See, but thats the thing, you can get one of these out of the box be happy and be fine, but not run optimally. I think thats what everyone is looking for. And it is such a small amount of boost that supercharger is running.

What I am trying to think now is that if you do have extra injectors it might be the only feasable option to get the AFR correct for now until someone finds an interceptor for the O2 Sensors, but will it cause a rich condition and trigger a CEL as well!. Damn these cars to hell

You are really overcomplicating this. If you really want adjustability, go buy a Greddy Emanage and be done with it. I know that is not the answer you want to hear, but in the end it is the simplest and cheapest.

[largeorangefont]

I'll believe that when I see it.

Let me qualify that. The bolt-on, out-of-the box Blitz SC kit with fully tuned and optimized fuel and spark. The initial installation is only good for about 25%, or 25-30 hp. No way is optimizing the fuel and spark going to DOUBLE that. You'll find another 3-8%... maybe as much as 10% or so, just like you would by tuning the car without the SC. That's the factory's margin of safety that you're playing with.

Now, you might see something close to that with a lot of OTHER additional mods, like a complete free-flowing intake, larger TB, better flowing intake manifold, some head work, a good header and a complete free-flowing exhaust. But, that's an awful lot of other stuff that doesn't really fall into the category of "fuel and spark tuning". And, even with all of that, I still don't think you're going to DOUBLE the output of the SC without raising the level of boost.

I'd say we could get 10% under the curve easily, probably slightly more. Peak piwer increase I would expect 8-10%. You make more power with timing than you do with boost. LtNoogie is seeing single digit ignition advance under load. If we could get that up to where is should be, and add some fue,l the gains would be there. There is a lot of potential.

[kurokoma-kun]

the car should have come from the factory with the power the blitz puts out

WORD

glad I got the oil catch.

Where did mount yours? Is there an ideal spot? Saw the pic of staypuft's on the battery, but I have so much room up in front of the CAI... is that too far for the hose to reach the pcv valve?

[kurokoma-kun]

It was just a nasty hodgepodge of shit and I still cannot get that smell out of my nose.

niiiiiiiice, and that shyt is goin down my intake track? :barf:

No idea what I'll see :iono: since 5000 mi. I been on full synthetic, changed every 5k. At almost 40k now with some 3500 on the charger, I hope mine won't be so disgusting

The DIY can in the link is very compact, its clever also, but I think I'll just get a cheap metal one, I've been on a chrome kick lately :biggrin:

[LtNoogie]

Can someone recommend a good OBD II data logging software package? I was making a few freeway runs last night in 3rd gear to collect data and saw some surprising results on the ScanGauge. Not bad readings, surprising readings.

It's too hard to videotape the gauges and the ScanGauge due to the shakiness of the camera mounts I have tried.

I was monitoring Open/Closed loop state, RPM, Throttle Position, and Ignition timing. What I saw was that the car went into Open Loop during acceleration more often than expected with the S/C turned on AND when it was turned off. This is happening before hitting 50% throttle position.

[bearda]

I'm a big fan of a good ELM327 based reader (I like the ElmScan 5, but just make sure it's using a real ELM327 and not a knockoff) and PCMSCAN. Seems to work well on my Mazda and the Yaris.

[kurokoma-kun]

Well now you bastards have got me obsessing too! (not difficult) :laugh:

Today I also saw one open loop status that fell outside what you all are describing as normal triggering conditions (DFCO and WOT)... it was under boost and acceleration at 32 TPS and 15 ign timing, and persisted for like 10 seconds... wtf.

Here's one random thought, though I don't know if it means anything at all. According to the wiring diagrams the s/c fuel controller does not wire into the throttle position sensor (TPS) located on the throttle body itself (ECM terminal VTA1) but rather into the accelerator pedal position sensor located on the pedal (VPA). Other than that it hooks up to RPM, ignition switch, injectors 1-4, and MAF (VG). The two other wires go to ground and activation switch.

Since the ECM uses the VTA1 data direct from the TPS to calculate everything from valve timing to long- and short-term fuel trims, I don't know what to think of that! I guess the fuel controller is altering the VPA signal sent to the TPS, and thereby manipulating the VTA1 signal then sent to the ECM?

[LtNoogie]

Well now you bastards have got me obsessing too! (not difficult) :laugh:

I don't know what to think of that! I guess the fuel controller is altering the VPA signal sent to the TPS, and thereby manipulating the VTA1 signal then sent to the ECM?

KK, you are overthinking. Don't do it! Last night, I dreamt of fuel pumps, pressure regulators, a set of injectors. It drove me crazy.

I am getting better at calculating the right sized pump and injectors. The biggest problem is that many of the calculations start with your desired HP output. So... I put in 400 HP. Now I have to put in a more realistic number.

So... what do you think is a realistic crank HP that a tuned Blitz kit should be able to put out?


BTW, I've been looking at this OBD II software package.

http://www.auterraweb.com/dynoscan.html

I'll also check out the ones that were posted recently.

[kurokoma-kun]

I think its called PBSD (post boost stress disorder). I barely remember last December, when all my friends were enjoying holiday festivities while I wandered around in a daze, smelling of gas and babbling incoherently about induction system leaks :rolleyes:

Hell if I know the max hp at the crank! :laugh: why not enter a value like 150 or 175 and see what you get. Have you thought of trying to talk to someone at RC Injection btw? They are right there in Torrance, maybe you can get some inside info.

[LtNoogie]

Yes. I'll give them a call. Did I say part of my dream included a fuel line popping off and spraying 91 Octane inside the car while I am full boost? I think I'll order the OBD logger by Wednesday once I research the different ones.

[Doc Zaius]

Yes. I'll give them a call. Did I say part of my dream included a fuel line popping off and spraying 91 Octane inside the car while I am full boost? I think I'll order the OBD logger by Wednesday once I research the different ones.

Weirdo! :tongue:

[kurokoma-kun]

so I now keep all the tools and extinguisher in the trunk. :bellyroll:

bbwwwwaahahhahhahaa I also keep the magical tool kit and extinguisher in my car! :biggrin: as well as other ritual objects like the domo-kun shrine I made :rolleyes::help:

does anyone know if those flat hydraulic jacks are worth the money? they look like they should fit under lowered cars? :iono:

[LtNoogie]

Q: When do I need to upgrade the injectors for my car?

A: The factory fuel injection system operates slightly rich from the factory. Because of this, certain engine upgrades such as low restriction air intake/exhaust systems and/or slight increases in boost pressure can usually be taken care of by the factory fuel injection system.

When airflow increases are substantial and the factory injectors are unable to keep up, larger injectors and/or fuel pressure increases are required. The factory fuel injection system can usually accommodate an injector that flows about 15-20% more than stock without compromising the idle quality or the low RPM drivability. If the air flow increase/horsepower target requires an injector that exceeds a 20% increase over stock, there are several options.

1. Re-program the factory ECU specifically for the new larger sized injectors.
2. Add a piggyback fuel computer that will allow you to control the larger injectors.
3. Use a stand alone engine management system to control the larger injectors.

[LtNoogie]

Noogie when you are in open loop are you still seeing the lean condition? I do not go into open loop right away it takes a little bit, even at wot but if I keep on it it goes into open loop and then I see the 11-12's on the wideband. When I am on the interstate about 80 mph and not boosting I see around stoich but as soon as I step on it and enter boost I instantly go into open loop and get good a/f readings even if I am only boosting at like 1 psi.

Yes, I believe that I am in open loop at the time. I may have to make a run tonight just to make sure. :smile:


Another question I have for you is do you have a wire on your fmu going to C20-81 I was looking at 1.4 updated wiring diagram and it does not show anything going to that location and my 1.1 shows it being rpm signal.

I can't find my wiring diagram and I can't read this image. Can you point out C20-81? I'm wired this way.

http://i426.photobucket.com/albums/pp346/LtNoogie/wirediagram1.jpg

[LtNoogie]

Interesting. Where did it go to on the fuel controller connector?

Here's the wiring diagram that I just pulled off their website. It looks like my V1.3 wiring diagram.

[ae92trueno7]

hey guys... i just got my aem wideband installed.... im getting readings at wot 11-12
and when off at wot 12.5-13.... thinking of getting some injector off an 09 tc or corrolla... the 2az-fe engine......

[PETERPOOP]

im jealous of your WOT readings! ahhh! I should be getting my wideband soon

[PETERPOOP]

hey guys... i just got my aem wideband installed.... im getting readings at wot 11-12
and when off at wot 12.5-13.... thinking of getting some injector off an 09 tc or corrolla... the 2az-fe engine......

Even if you did run bigger injectors ( i dont know why you would ), you wouldn't want the tc ones. Either matrix or corolla you would want..I think.

Just wait, Noogie is going to be running larger injectors soon and he's going to let us know how it goes.

*My gauges came in today! YEEEE. Don't know when I'll get to install them though... :thumbdown:

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp250/tropicalsuckerpunch/CIMG4028.jpg

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp250/tropicalsuckerpunch/CIMG4027.jpg

http://i416.photobucket.com/albums/pp250/tropicalsuckerpunch/CIMG4029.jpg

[cali yaris]

Even if you did run bigger injectors ( i dont know why you would ), you wouldn't want the tc ones. Either matrix or corolla you would want..I think.

why not? they worked fine for me.

[PETERPOOP]

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread or another, but it was said that the car would run worst with tc injectors. If anything, only would be good at WOT, but at idle and normal driving, TC would be too much.

If blitz doesn't offer us different fuel controllers with some success, when I get the greddy ultimate, i am going to talk to the tuner and try throw in some tc or matrix/carolla injectors with the 1zz throttle body and tune it accordingly.

[LtNoogie]

why not? they worked fine for me.

Garm, what size are the tc injectors. What AFR were you reading at idle?

[cali yaris]

I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread or another, but it was said that the car would run worst with tc injectors.

"it was said" isn't the same as "it is so".

I'm not sure on the size, noogie -- throw them on and see how your car runs so we can settle this. I was normal AFR at idle, 13-14. Did fine on the dyno too, except at WOT over 5k rpm

[PETERPOOP]

"it was said" isn't the same as "it is so".



true, this is true.

tC injectors seem like a big jump to go and "try" out. Might be safer going to carolla/matrix injectors , seeing how those run, and if everything is fine, maybe move up to tCs?

Go for it noogie! haha :wink:

[whooppee777]

kcalb is going boosted with blitz very very soon and i know he has a set of tc injectors. im sure if he has issues he will swap out injectors and let us know the outcome.

[cali yaris]

if the car runs ok and there is an a/f gauge to watch, trying them out should be ok if done carefully.

I don't know how much larger the tC injectors are but they aren't huge. I am pretty sure that the Greddy turbo kit for the tC comes with 330cc injectors -- so the stock ones must be smaller than that.

[LtNoogie]

I'm test fitting injectors from RC Engineering into the motor on Friday. It's only a fit check to make sure everything bolts down because the injectors are physically bigger than the stock ones. If they fit, I'm working with them to decide whether to install 240cc, 270cc, or 310cc injectors.

That's why I keep asking people what size injectors they are installing and whether they are having any problems at idle or under light throttle.

[kurokoma-kun]

FINALLY getting my gauges installed! :biggrin: Here's how they look in the mounting plate I made from some copper sheet--it took a little fitting but the lid to the compartment does close completely, and I get to keep the little rack on the left for car wash quarters! I'll be finishing the electrical wiring tomorrow (forgot I needed inline fuses :rolleyes:).

http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc233/mojojojo2323/kuro-chan/gaugeplate.jpg

[PETERPOOP]

So you plan on driving with the compartment open?

[kurokoma-kun]

So you plan on driving with the compartment open?

yes.... and closing it when I go to get my emissions test done :wink: just one reason for concealing the gauges. The open lid doesn't block the view in any way, and isn't all that visible from the outside either

[PETERPOOP]

nice nice. what colors do yours light up? red?

I am putting my gauges and wiring them up tomorrow too! We should have some nice pics for people tomorrow.

[kurokoma-kun]

Yup red, though I kinda wish for blue now! Can't to see yours :cool:

[LtNoogie]

I just got a cool data logger to replace my ScanGauge. I hope to post something by tonight.

[PETERPOOP]

What about info on your bigger injectors experience that was suppose to happen today?

EDIT: I'm a newb. Sorry didn't see your thread on it already. Doh!


*I'll have pics of my gauges in place (not wired) up soon too!