Twin Charging

[whooppee777]

could it be done with the blitz supercharger?

[Nexus1155]

lol wanna try and get single charging working correctly first :D, And yes it can be done, but does the blitz displace enough air to even matter?

[whooppee777]

lol wanna try and get single charging working correctly first :D, And yes it can be done, but does the blitz displace enough air to even matter?

for the most part i believe mine is working fine i thought i had issues with my a/f ratio but i dont.

i dont know too much about twin charging other than it will be one challenging feat. and i'd like to thank turbo yaris for getting it in my head

the idea is great, slap on a big turbo to give boost in higher rpms and the blitz supercharger handles boost in the low rpms till the turbo has spooled.

my question, which i've already asked turboyaris but want others opinions, is wont the boost from the turbo charger have difficulty passing through the impellers of the blitz supercharger. (which i think is just another way of asking the question nexus just asked)

[turboyaris]

aww... you blew the suprise hahaha ;)

and yea you are both pretty much talking about the same thing, I would say, as I said earlier, I would get a little bit bigger supercharger, but thats just me.

[turboyaris]

whooppee heres the 350z i was talking about

http://www.turbomagazine.com/features/0701_turp_nissan_350z_twin_charged/index.html

a cobalt.. LAMEEE haah

http://www.gminsidenews.com/forums/f13/300-hp-twin-charged-cobalt-ss-coming-gravana-12620/?t-12620.html=


and the mini kit

http://www.coasttocoastusa.com/zencart/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=88

[turboyaris]

another good read...

http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/features/0506_sccp_2004_mini_cooper_s_twin_turbo/index.html

[PETERPOOP]

for the most part i believe mine is working fine i thought i had issues with my a/f ratio but i dont.


Let us know when you get dyno readings.

[whooppee777]

aww... you blew the suprise hahaha ;)

and yea you are both pretty much talking about the same thing, I would say, as I said earlier, I would get a little bit bigger supercharger, but thats just me.

no no no earlier today i asked u this and u never said anything about a larger supercharger, u said the blitz would do fine.


if i were to attempt this my goal would be 20 pounds of boost. with a built internals

[turboyaris]

nooo i mentioned that your supercharger was tiny haha and you should get a bigger one, I don't know for a fact though if you'd need a bigger one, I would need the actual specs for the supercharger you know. but for 20psi, I think you'd need to go bigger, anyone know the max boost of the blitz?

[Nexus1155]

yeah i would think you would definately need to go bigger especially if you are doing a decent sized turbo with internals. Think about it, you displace the air from the supercharger to go into the engine out the exhaust turbo makes its boost, forces the air back into the supercharger which the supercharger won't be able to handle the charge of air and it will be poo. This also depends if the blitz can take the charge, you would really need some charts or ask blitz or someone about it

You could get around this by using a different supercharger and redirecting air into the intake manifold directly and bypassing the supercharger all together. You would still be getting direct boost on the intake side and direct boost on the exhaust side.

[cali yaris]

Just mentioning the standalone management you will have to custom wire and program to manage the system.

VERY expensive project IMO.

[whooppee777]

expensive but possible

[coheed]

The thing about twin-charging is that if the turbo EVER boosts higher than the supercharger, the s/c will blow comprimising your whole engine. And the fact that the s/c can only reach a certain boost, where as the turbo can, in theory, hit any boost level, is place for concern. So if your rpms climb high enough and the turbo hits higher boost, your screwed. But if you have a waste gate that wont fail you, you'll be fine.

[Nexus1155]

The thing about twin-charging is that if the turbo EVER boosts higher than the supercharger, the s/c will blow comprimising your whole engine.

Boost Controller

[coheed]

But the way he was talking about it, he wanted the boost form the s/c on the low end, and the boost from the turbo on the top end. But it would be pointless since you cant boost the turbo higher than the s/c at any point in time. You would have the same boost pressure on all ends. :iono: Just my opinion.

[turboyaris]

actually, the supercharger has a clutch style pulley and actually deactivates at a certain rpm, at which point the turbo has built full boost and brings you on home

[turboecho2005]

A centrifugal supercharger would be the way to go. Not a roots type like the blitz...

BTW why not triple charge while you're at it ;)

Twin Charging as always been a dream of mine and i am sure one day it WILL happen...

[largeorangefont]

It is a waste of time and money on a high compression NA engine like the Yaris has.

You would NOT want a centrifugal supercharger, that defeats the whole purpose of twin charging. YOu woudl want a roots or twin screw type supercharger.

Also, one will not "blow up" the other.

[turboyaris]

whooppee was going to be fully building his engine, but yea doing it on a stock engine would be pointless... and yes it needs to be twin screw

[whooppee777]

It is a waste of time and money on a high compression NA engine like the Yaris has.

a waste of time and money to some people.

if i did it i would do it right. i would pick up a 1nz from a junkyard completely build the engine from top to bottom. swap in a 2zz transmission. custom fortified axels. properly tuned stand alone engine management

[turboecho2005]

It is a waste of time and money on a high compression NA engine like the Yaris has.

You would NOT want a centrifugal supercharger, that defeats the whole purpose of twin charging. YOu woudl want a roots or twin screw type supercharger.

Also, one will not "blow up" the other.

I have wasted enough money on my echo to buy 6 or more of them... For some people it may seem like a waste but when you can keep up to a lambo in an echo the look on his face is priceless.

and you WOULD want a centrifugal supercharger since it is much more efficient then a roots or twin screw style. You don't need to feed the supercharger with the turbo or feed the turbo with the supercharger. they can both run to the same intercooler that has divided tanks on one end with a single outlet on the other end feeding your intake manifold.

[PETERPOOP]

a waste of time and money to some people.

if i did it i would do it right. i would pick up a 1nz from a junkyard completely build the engine from top to bottom. swap in a 2zz transmission. custom fortified axels. properly tuned stand alone engine management

Don't get me wrong, I totally want you to do this. However, this is no pocket change project. And if I remember correctly, you were the guy who had a payment plan for just the blitz kit with garm. Unless you hit the lottery recently, or you're raking in the money like garm, how long do you think this will take to actually happen? :confused:

[whooppee777]

if i did it i see it taking me roughly 2 years, but thats me taking my time. i see no point in rushing it. the engine in it right now is running fine

[Nexus1155]

Wait Garm takes payment plans?!!?! I was thinking of buying a new 46" TV but damn a supercharger might be more rewarding

[AlexNet0]

^Lol

[whooppee777]

for whatever reason i have this urge to build an engine. i could spend half as much building a honda engine and blend in with the crowd or i could spend more and make something that truly stands out in a crowd

[supmet]

for whatever reason i have this urge to build an engine. i could spend half as much building a honda engine and blend in with the crowd or i could spend more and make something that truly stands out in a crowd

I'm getting the feeling this is a very foreign idea in this crowd. I'm still waiting for someone to tell you to just buy a clio :bellyroll:

[largeorangefont]

I have wasted enough money on my echo to buy 6 or more of them... For some people it may seem like a waste but when you can keep up to a lambo in an echo the look on his face is priceless.

and you WOULD want a centrifugal supercharger since it is much more efficient then a roots or twin screw style. You don't need to feed the supercharger with the turbo or feed the turbo with the supercharger. they can both run to the same intercooler that has divided tanks on one end with a single outlet on the other end feeding your intake manifold.

If you are going to run a centrifugal supercharger and a turbo you are defeating the entire purpose. An centrifugal supercharger is essentially a belt driven turbo cold side, and as such needs to spool just like a turbo, but is limited by engine speed. You would be better off running 2 turbos, or one large turbo. The whole point of twin charging is to eliminate turbo lag. A centrifugal supercharger has lag. Roots style and twin screw chargers do not.

It has been proven that generally a single turbo will make more power than a twin charger setup. The twin charger will have better driveability, and better response.

Also, you are not keeping up with a Lambo in Echo or Yaris. Maybe a Mustang.

[largeorangefont]

for whatever reason i have this urge to build an engine. i could spend half as much building a honda engine and blend in with the crowd or i could spend more and make something that truly stands out in a crowd


I understand you want to build something unique, but just remember that after the investment, you will either be left with a broken car that you are frustrated with, or a "fast" yaris that is still slow compared to other cars.

[turboecho2005]

Also, you are not keeping up with a Lambo in Echo or Yaris. Maybe a Mustang.

Hahaha.. you obiously haven't seen my build before.... I was able beat a few nice cars including my bosses modified M3. A 335Xi twin turbo BMW and a few other just with my 4age swap. I am not saying i smoked then but i was in the lead.

Let alone my twin engine build... even just 500 awd hp in an echo would be killer.

If you think lambos are fast you must be smoking some good shit. because the base Lamborghini Murciélago only does the quarter mile in 12.6 seconds... any well built turbo'd civic can keep up to that.

[largeorangefont]

If you think lambos are fast you must be smoking some good shit. because the base Lamborghini Murciélago only does the quarter mile in 12.6 seconds... any well built turbo'd civic can keep up to that.

You are the one smoking the shit if that is what you think. Yes you can build a gutted turbo anything to beat one in a 1/4 mile. On the street you might beat it to 120 or so.

http://www.dragtimes.com/Lamborghini--Murcielago-Drag-Racing.html

Sure the idiot that can't drive it ran a 12.6, but look at the trap speeds genius. If you think a 12.6 is a tru representation of what they run you are kidding yourself.

I have ran them before and assure you they are much faster than that. I've beaten Gallardos, I've bean one Murci, and lost to one.

[Nexus1155]

Yeah honestly If you wanted low end then high end and something super fancy you can always do a sequential turbo setup. The sequential will be pretty cool if you can rig up the piping correctly. GT15 in the butt GT30 where the air box is. WOOOSH pew pew ... Then you will have one quick spooling top end monsterrrr.

Or you can always go the twin-engine route, and be the ultimate yaris. We already have an up and coming ultimate echo, who wants to do it in the yaris. No 1nz allowed if you go that route though...

[eTiMaGo]

a twin turbo 1NZ... talk about putting lipstick on a pig :biggrin: but yeah, if done right, it could be a mini monster all right...

I say the dream setup would be to swap the rear subframe, engine, tramsission, etc from an old MR2 Turbo (3S-GTE FTW) where the back seats are :biggrin:

but yeah, this is all just dreams and talk, not a lotta people are ever actually gonna do anything about it :laugh:

[TOUGEghost]

I know twin turbos aren't the original topic, but what did all the guys with factory sequential turbo setups do? (Supra, RX-7, etc.) Rip them out and go with single turbos, lol. More power, less complexity, slight tradeoff in low rpm response, but who cares about that, right? :biggrin:

[whooppee777]

I know twin turbos aren't the original topic

at this point im enjoying all the different ideas being thrown around

[Nexus1155]

well I mean damn, if you're taking ideas, might as well swap a VAG FWD 1.8T in there, then you'd be golden for power...

[jkuchta]

Screw all of the car engines if you're going to back-half it......

drop in a turbo'd Hayabusa....350hp, 170 lbs, and a seq. 6sp trans!

Check out the Z-Cars mini's to get an idea of performance potential.

[AlexNet0]

^ha...oh you are serious?

[CtrlAltDefeat]

whoa... a turbo hyabusa engine at 350hp in a yari.... yikes....

[Russelt3hPirate]

compress compressed air. do it.

and post up all the money you wasted to get a car that's slower than a stock WRX.

while you're at it you could run some turbos in series. get 150 psi!! do it would make made powar.

[Russelt3hPirate]

already been done.

http://www.brashboy.net/english/dualyarisengine.jpg

using a custom Turbo Kit and a blitz charger.

[changchewsoon]

That's the BrashBoy dual charged Yaris.

http://www.brashboy.net/english/dualyaris.html

[sasquatch]

that twin charged yaris is awesome.

until i saw that i was going to say that it is totally possible, possibly using mega squirt or another stand alone system to run the fuel/spark and avoid the tricky stock yaris ECU.

VW currently makes a production 1.4 twin charged engine making 170hp.

also some guy in denmark(i think) made a custom supercharged/turboed 1.8t GTI making 500hp. he actually used 3 ECU's to run the car: 1 for the turbo, 1 for the supercharger, (running 8 injectors) and 1 for the rest of the car. i could only imagine what a no lag 500hp would feel like

[whooppee777]

already been done.

http://www.brashboy.net/english/dualyarisengine.jpg

using a custom Turbo Kit and a blitz charger.

That's the BrashBoy dual charged Yaris.

http://www.brashboy.net/english/dualyaris.html

holy shit

[whooppee777]

So i emailed brash boys the responded very quickly. heres my inquiry followed by their response.

"I noticied you guys make a dual charged kit for the yaris. I have
Yaris with the Blitz Supercharger and naturally I want more power. I
was Curious if you could inform me as to what size turbo you use in
your kit, how much boost does the turbo makes, how much additional
boost can the Blitz supercharger handle, and I was curious if it would
be possible to get a copy of the Installation manual for the dual
charged kit. I would even pay for the manual, just so i could get
some sort of idea of how to route the piping, even though the chasis
codes are not the same it would help a lot.

Thanks"

"Hello.
Our dual charger does not sale by kit model, sorry.
Engine;
Forged connecting rods
Forged low compression pistons
Forged valve and valve spring
Power FC
Boost 1.0k
270HP

If install the sleeve in the block, will go up boost 1.2k, over 320HP."

So now the search begins for sourcing and pricing Forged Connecting Rods, Forged Low Compression Pistons, Forged Valves & Valve Springs, Standalone Engine Management, a place to sleeve the block, turbo exhaust manifold, turbo, and a way to fortify the crank just to be safe, fortified axels. plus anything else i forgot

[whooppee777]

Used 1NZ-FE Engine
Junk Yard
$ Cheap As Possible

Turbo Manifold
http://www.365motorwerks.com/turbomanifolds.aspx
$375

Turbo
?
?

Forged Low Compression Pistons
?
?

Sleeved Block
?
?

Forged Connecting Rods
?
?

Forged Valves & Valve Springs
?
?

Fortified Axles
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9884&highlight=axle
?

Fortified Crank
?
?

Standalone ECU
?
?

The other necessities will be added once the above is sourced

[Tamago]

you'll make more power with just a turbo.. /thread

[whooppee777]

anyone can just go turbo. (or can they i.e. tuning issues)

u seem to be missing the point.

its about being the only guy in the country with a twin charged yaris.

let alone a twin charged anything, less than a handful of people can say they have that.

[Tamago]

anyone can just go turbo. (or can they i.e. tuning issues)

u seem to be missing the point.

its about being the only guy in the country with a twin charged yaris.

let alone a twin charged anything, less than a handful of people can say they have that.

why not be the only yaris that has only 3 wheels? cut a hole in your trunk and put one wheel in the back, now THAT will turn heads

:clap:

[Russelt3hPirate]

don't forget stronger trans and an LSD.

if you're the only guy in the country with it be prepared to build more than 1 engine, more like 7 or 8 before you get the tuning right.

if you're looking to do something "on the cheap" then the last thing you want to be is the "first"

the first person is the person who spends the most $$, didn't you take economics and marketing? :bellyroll:

[whooppee777]

why not be the only yaris that has only 3 wheels? cut a hole in your trunk and put one wheel in the back, now THAT will turn heads

:clap:

turn head yes. cool/feasable not really

don't forget stronger trans and an LSD.

if you're the only guy in the country with it be prepared to build more than 1 engine, more like 7 or 8 before you get the tuning right.

if you're looking to do something "on the cheap" then the last thing you want to be is the "first"

the first person is the person who spends the most $$, didn't you take economics and marketing? :bellyroll:

the trans im not too worried about. if it blows i'll replace it with something stronger. the lsd is an upgrade i do intend to do.

no not worried about the money this is a project i see stretching across 2 years or more. i kinda see cali yaris as the real first to go for power in the
300hp area. i'll b sure to keep him on speed dial and learn from his mistakes, if he makes any.

i took intro to economics. but that was about 2 years ago. i must have slept in on the day they covered twin charging an econo box.

so does anyone have anything to add as far as my needed parts go?

[Russelt3hPirate]

besides little stuff?

have you decided on compression ratio?

slap on a GT30R .76 AR, you don't need low end, you need top end.

new cams.

you're going to have to find the best tuner in the world to get this to run at all.

probably some 600cc injectors too, external fuel pump wouldn't be a bad idea.

2 more built 1nzFE's for the first time you over boost the turbo and can't provide enough fuel (most likely the 3rd or 4th dyno pull).

how much do you forsee this costing you? you pretend $$ isn't a factor, but once you figure out how much you're potentially going to dump into this car you may choose another route.

my guess is around $30k to get it to the point of reliability and more than 250whp use able and safe.

[whooppee777]

besides little stuff?

have you decided on compression ratio?

slap on a GT30R .76 AR, you don't need low end, you need top end.

new cams.

you're going to have to find the best tuner in the world to get this to run at all.

probably some 600cc injectors too, external fuel pump wouldn't be a bad idea.

2 more built 1nzFE's for the first time you over boost the turbo and can't provide enough fuel (most likely the 3rd or 4th dyno pull).

how much do you forsee this costing you? you pretend $$ isn't a factor, but once you figure out how much you're potentially going to dump into this car you may choose another route.

my guess is around $30k to get it to the point of reliability and more than 250whp use able and safe.

i consider this the collecting information process. thats why i listed the vital items first to gauge the cost. if it's not an astronimical amount after i figure that stuff out i'll move on to the fuel system. sleeving the block will key to figuring out how much boost i will push, i want between 20 and 25 since that's what brash boys said will get you over 300hp going twin charged.

there is a guy who lives less than 2 miles from my home who has a shop literally next to his house with every piece of machinery imaginable for building engines. its all he does for a living is build big block chevy engines. and my dad has known him forever so i'm sure he wont break my back in fees. and he does amazing work for being the crazy mf he is.

so you tell me, at 22.5 pounds of boost what compression pistons should i use?

[whooppee777]

if they would do that im sure they would want a deposit, and i am not sending LARGE amount of money to japan to possibly get ripped off.

[Tamago]

turn head yes. cool/feasable not really




i want to twin charge my yaris


turns head yes, cool/feasable, NOT REALLY

[whooppee777]

is there a button on here i can click that prevents the pessimists from posting on the forums?

[Tamago]

is there a button on here i can click that prevents the pessimists from posting on the forums?


yes, here it is

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/login.php?do=logout&logouthash=1240641555-f7fd84d32171ac0bbe81155d16124c8e83b90456

[whooppee777]

your about as funny as kathy griffin.

i understand that lower compression pistons would be required but how will that affect the power output during low boost when only the supercharger is creating the boost? wouldnt there be a loss in power?

[whooppee777]

Very interesting thread on scionlife

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233635&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

[Tamago]

your about as funny as kathy griffin.

i understand that lower compression pistons would be required but how will that affect the power output during low boost when only the supercharger is creating the boost? wouldnt there be a loss in power?

yes there would. but that's why you have the supercharger, right? make boost before the turbo can?

[Tamago]

Very interesting thread on scionlife

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=233635&postdays=0&postorder=asc&&start=0

yes, very interesting:

Alex, read the previous page. This twincharge project is DEAD for me. I've already sold the supercharger. I'm not concentrating on an all-turbo build.






HMMMMMM i wonder why he gave up?

because he realized it's not worth the time/money/weight ?

[whooppee777]

Did you not graduate from Grade School, because you don't read very well.

vettereddie's last post

"Yeah, the intake temp is what I saw was the biggest issue and why the twincharge varient is NOT happening. If a new manifold was done after the supercharger that had a air-to-water intercooler built in, then it could probably work. Alternately, I could have used meth injection, but on a daily driver that would be a pain to keep filled. "

and on page 3 he elaborates on his reason for not twin charging

"Simply put, the incoming pre-pressurized air would be at elevated temperature. The compressor rotor lobes are metal and do undergo thermal expansion. If the intake temp is too high, they will expand out of tolerance and hit instead of mesh, locking the compressor. Also, methanol can not be injected pre-s/c to cool the rotors because it could displace the oil in the sealed bearings and dry them out, damaging the compressor shaft. Elevated temperature could also de-laminate the anti-friction coating on the lobes, creating a FOD issue in the compressor, or worse, get pulled into the cylinder. "

it had nothing to do with whether it was "worth the time/money/weight"

congrats Tamago, you officially made an ass of yourself.

[Tamago]

wait wait, so i just read what his reasoning was...

sounds like twin charging was a bad idea.

hmm maybe in your head this:

Simply put, the incoming pre-pressurized air would be at elevated temperature. The compressor rotor lobes are metal and do undergo thermal expansion. If the intake temp is too high, they will expand out of tolerance and hit instead of mesh, locking the compressor.

translates into it being a good idea?

[Tamago]

LOL @ your twincharge idea.

[whooppee777]

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/whooppee777/tamagosadouche.jpg

that appears to be a bad idea.

i never thought running the boost from the turbo into the s/c compressor was a good idea in the first place. i was considering a manifold that would allow the boost from the turbo to bypass the compressor altogether.

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d62/whooppee777/superdouche.jpg

whatever they did is a good idea, if it wasnt a good idea they wouldnt sell it.

[changchewsoon]

Just want to share the emails exchanged between me and Brashboy.

----- Original Message -----
From: "千葉　忠成" <brashboy_chiba@yahoo.co.jp>
To: "Chang Chew Soon" <email masked>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 1:53 PM
Subject: Re: CONTACT US


> Piston set 150,000JPY
> Connecting rods 160,000JPY
> Valve and Valve springe 140,000JPY
>
> E-manage Blue is good!!
> boost 1.2 is no problem for complete engine.
>
> And you need big injector, big fuel pump.
>
> --- Chang Chew Soon <email masked> wrote:
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Thank you! Yes I agree it is better to have complete
>> set. Can you please
>> quote me the price for the complete set for the
>> piston, rods, valve and
>> valve spring.
>>
>> I am currently using Trust E-Manage Blue, if I want
>> to boost 1.2 bar is it
>> sufficient?
>>
>> Thank you!
>> Chew Soon
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "千葉　忠成" <brashboy_chiba@yahoo.co.jp>
>> To: "Chang Chew Soon" <email masked>
>> Sent: Friday, April 10, 2009 12:13 PM
>> Subject: Re: CONTACT US
>>
>>
>> > Hello.
>> >
>> > I have following forged parts for 1NZ-FE.
>> >
>> > Had better to install,
>> > Piston (8.5:1)
>> > Connecting Rods
>> > Valve
>> > Valve spring
>> >
>> > Our forged 1NZ-FE have over 230ps (Yaris).
>> >
>> > Brash Boy JDM Trading, CHIBA
>> >
>> >

[whooppee777]

thank u. excellent post

[Russelt3hPirate]

whatever they did is a good idea, if it wasnt a good idea they wouldnt sell it.

this is assuming they didn't do exactly what you were thinking of not doing, and it could be why they aren't selling it as a kit. :(

plus they are on the old Vitz platform, wonder how much the ECU setup has changed since?

[whooppee777]

this is assuming they didn't do exactly what you were thinking of not doing, and it could be why they aren't selling it as a kit. :(

plus they are on the old Vitz platform, wonder how much the ECU setup has changed since?

reading that gave me a head ache