Turbo Questions

[regal]

I've seen turbos done good and bad. For me the beauty of a turbo is that it doesn't affect MPG unless you rev high. A turbo setup done right can have great everyday driveablity and you never know its there unless you need it. The big issue I have found with Turbos is the ECM. With my 93 Civic it was easy, the ECU code was hacked and it could be changed. In my state (Pennsylvania) they scan the ODBII for inspection, no problem with the old Civic.

Not interested in a supercharger, they are fine for racing, but just rob too much fuel economy for my tastes. With a turbo you basically get boost only when you need it if its done right.

What are the options with the Yaris? Can you add maybe 5psi, pass OBDII, and still get 40 mpg if you stay under 3500 rpm? Are there any one stop packages? If not, I'm sure there will be in a few years.

Just interested to know whats out there.

[eTiMaGo]

look around this sub-forum, for the moment there's no simple plug-and-play kind of solution for the electronics. Turbo hardware is not a problem, with the right choice of turbo unit you can get it to start boosting at whatever RPM you want... but the software is the thorn in our side...

[regal]

What about bigger injectors and stock ECU with a mild boost, any success with this? If not I can wait, I am sure the ECU will be hacked eventually, this car will be a cult classic like the old Hondas in 5 years.

[CASTREX]

The stock injectors should be more than enough for 5psi...

The problem is that after you have gone thru all the trouble and custom work... who in their right mind would not want more!! :evil:

But seriously...

If you carefully select a turbo that will spool at 3,500-4,500 rpm's throw in colder plugs and run it with premiun gas... you should be more than able to get away with the stock ECU and no tunning...
At that psi level you won't even need an intercooler... so less things to worry about... no piping or leaks...

Garm ( Caliyaris ) has been running with no tunning for 8 months boosting 8 psi and he has not killed the engine... he is running lean at WOT but that is to be expected. But if you are truely able to stick to the 5 psi boost level... you should be more than fine.

You could probably achive around 130 whp with such set up... which is more than what the blitz puts out... and it would cost way less...
It would not have the instant response of the SC, but that is not waht you are looking for any ways...

If you have some skills you should be able to do it with less than $1,000


I predict that the Yaris ECU will not be cracked in 5 years, nor in 10 years...

Just rembember... anything more than those 5psi and you will be on the same boat as everyone else on the Force Induction area... Tunning problems as there is no easy way to modify fuel and timing on these cars...

[Nexus1155]

Wait, i have a question Castrex since you seem to know alot. What AFR is Cali running in boost, and I have a K03, will the low end torque end up killing the rods because of the quick spool? I really want to turbo the yaris, even if i don't add a BOV or intercooler etc, like Richards kit

[regal]

I predict that the Yaris ECU will not be cracked in 5 years, nor in 10 years...

.

Someone needs to sell an standalone ECM that has an OBDII port, it would sell like hotcakes.

[djgab101]

i have a question!!!

say i installed a turbo kit into my yaris....... would i be able to have a on/off switch so that i can turn my turbo off when i dont need it so i can save fuel... and not damage my engine or anything like that?????????????

[regal]

i have a question!!!

say i installed a turbo kit into my yaris....... would i be able to have a on/off switch so that i can turn my turbo off when i dont need it so i can save fuel... and not damage my engine or anything like that?????????????

I have heard that at one time there were people doing this with a lever on the wastegate. I think that was 25 years ago and to find such a rig today would be very custom/expensive.

What you want to do is match the turbo size to your engine such that below 3200 rpms or so it doesn't spoolup, properly sized and with good tuning a turbo won't use much gas until you stomp on the accelerator. The issue with the Yaris is that a good tune looks impossible if you want to pass emmissions (OBDII). Even for off-road I don't know if there are standalone ECM that can handle the drive-by wire throttle. I think the Yaris is a few years away from daily driver type turbo set-up. Hopefully some hacker genius will get ahold of a Toyota diagnostics and reverse engineer the stock ECM.

[eTiMaGo]

or, you can have some of the fancier boost controllers that give you 2 or more profiles. So you could have an "always open" profile that will not give you any boost whatsoever, and flick to the regular one when wanted.

Yes so far the only option that seems to work for US cars is a standalone ECU used in conjunction with the stock one (which handles the DBW, etc), or go nuts like Garm and convert the car to DBC :biggrin:

[regal]

What's DBC ?


edit: Oh Drive by cable?

[djgab101]

thanks for your respones ....... plus the thing is my yaris is from australia so i dont think it is similar to US yaris..... and i am the biggest NOOB for anything about turbos !!!

[regal]

I think I'm going to wait a few years before looking at boosting my Yaris, might look for an old Miata to restore and boost instead.

[LtNoogie]

Not interested in a supercharger, they are fine for racing, but just rob too much fuel economy for my tastes. With a turbo you basically get boost only when you need it if its done right.


Actually, with the Blitz supercharger, you can set it to kick in at different throttle positions:

OFF
25% throttle
50% throttle
75% throttle

I'm not trying to change your mind on the turbocharger, just wanted to set the story straight on the supercharger.

[djgab101]

yea i think i might go supercharger..... seems better option at the moment!!!

[CASTREX]

Wait, i have a question Castrex since you seem to know alot. What AFR is Cali running in boost, and I have a K03, will the low end torque end up killing the rods because of the quick spool? I really want to turbo the yaris, even if i don't add a BOV or intercooler etc, like Richards kit

Well.. that is a question for Garm... nof for me! I just know that he has mentioned a couple of times that he is running lean at WOT... but then again that is at 8 psi and 180whp

And no, you won't throw a rod... a K03 will not spool any faster nor provide as much power/ torque as Garms GT25R and he has not break anything so why would you?

Then again... what I'm trying to say is that if you are not looking to go near the limits and you can be satisfied with a low boost set up... you could do it with no tunning....

4-5 psi no intercooler... or a small one

And a cheap small turbo like the K03 or even a bit larger turbo if yoou want it to spool later... perhaps a take off from a wrx...

stock injectors or some just a tad lager like the injectors from a 1zz 1.8L

Colder plugs, premium fuel...


And you should be good to go!! with maybe 125-130 whp and about a $1k
or less spent...

Oh... and in case we found an affordable way to tune fuel and timing on this car on the future... you will only need to turn the boost up!! as you ill be all set.

[Nexus1155]

Wonder what would happen if someone were to drop a t-sport ecu in, got to have better maps.

If the T-sport didn't come with a turbo, I doubt it will help much.

Also the reason i asked is because the K03 is tinyyyyy

http://www.nogaroblue.com/turbo/TurboWheels.jpg (It's the S4 one)

I am trying to find out what the wastegate is set at stock because i dont have a regulator on my air compressor to test its either 4 or 7 psi. I would be happy with 4 psi with new injectors and only a little lean, but i bet i am guaranteed a CEL which i do not want :(

I'm going to try and sift through all of garms turbo threads, god help me

[CASTREX]

Wonder what would happen if someone were to drop a t-sport ecu in, got to have better maps.

That's a no go.

The first gen Tsport had teh same exact 1nz pushing the same power than the echo or xb /xA
The TRD turbo kit for the Tsport came with a differentt ECU to handle the boost... but that car is drive by cable... the ecu won't work in your car

And if you mean the new TS... well that is a totally different engine.

[cali yaris]

Well.. that is a question for Garm...

Yes, I ran a little lean at WOT and over 5k rpm. That was @ 8 psi on the stock ECU with Scion tC injectors and a bit of work on the MAF piping to fool the ECU.

I also got PO172 CEL's which meant I was running rich. This mostly happened when cold, decelerating or at idle.

Pesky ECU !! -- but it's gone now.. :wink:

[Nexus1155]

lol whats a little lean, thats what worries me.(I Tried to find your initial thread but everything is deleted from the hack!!) I'll be pushing a K03, at whatever the stock wastegate setting is non intercooled just for s's and giggles. Do you think I will get a CEL on that? I might just try to pickup a management unit before i even buy the mandrel bends...

[cali yaris]

Who knows if you'll get CEL's. My guess is ANY untuned system on the ECU is going to freak it out at some point - it's a question of whether it's within some acceptable level of tolerance.

[CASTREX]

Yeap,

First gen yaris TS (2000-2006) came with the 1NZ-FE 1.5L engine 106bhp

Main difference is that the first get Yaris mustly came with the 1.3L engine or the 1.0L so actually the 1.5 engine was the top of the line...
All of these were divre by cable.

These cars were normally aspirated but TRD sold a tru plug n play turbo kit that increased the power to 145 bhp
The kit came with Manifold, turbo, top mount intercooler, injectors and a new ECU.

The second Gen Yaris TS (Like mine) 2007 + comes with the new 2ZF-FE 1.8L engine (same engine on the scion xD and the new corolla and matrix)

[CASTREX]

lol whats a little lean, thats what worries me.(I Tried to find your initial thread but everything is deleted from the hack!!) I'll be pushing a K03, at whatever the stock wastegate setting is non intercooled just for s's and giggles. Do you think I will get a CEL on that? I might just try to pickup a management unit before i even buy the mandrel bends...


I think the K03 is set at 8psi. At least that is what the stock VW's push on that turbo.

If you want a lower psi you should try to delete the internal wastegate and add and external unit with a spring of your choice... you can find 3, 4, 5 psi springs

[CASTREX]

Nexus... if it were me this is what I would do:

Use that k03 and set it to 5psi max

Add a small intercooler... there are some you can get for $60 on ebay.
Use 2" piping...
Give a try to some injectors a little smaller the the TC ones that Garm has...
These are fairly cheap so you can do some experimentation...

You could use injectors from a 1zz 1.8L engine out of a Celica GT or an MR Spyder, a step larger from a 2ZZ engine out of a Celica GT-s or Corolla xRS or the TC like Garm's if needed.

Get some cheap copper plugs, one step and 2 steps colder until you dial in your optimal set up... then you can install iridiums at the best suited heat range.

And finally get a Pyrometer (EGT gauge) it will tell you if you are running safely or in a dangerous zone...


I woud not be too concern about getting one of the CEL's that Garm described... running a little rich at partial throttel is no problem.

If that could cause you a problem for your local inspections... you can always reset the ECu and swap back the OE injector for the inspection day... (just don't go WOT on your way to the inspection)

Our cars have been designed to run on the lean side.... Some people have reported that car even goes into the 15's while crusing...

[jt258]

Yeap,

First gen yaris TS (2000-2006) came with the 1NZ-FE 1.5L engine 106bhp

Main difference is that the first get Yaris mustly came with the 1.3L engine or the 1.0L so actually the 1.5 engine was the top of the line...
All of these were divre by cable.

These cars were normally aspirated but TRD sold a tru plug n play turbo kit that increased the power to 145 bhp
The kit came with Manifold, turbo, top mount intercooler, injectors and a new ECU.

The second Gen Yaris TS (Like mine) 2007 + comes with the new 2ZF-FE 1.8L engine (same engine on the scion xD and the new corolla and matrix)
(2ZR-FE)

[Nexus1155]

Jeeze I didn't even see you posted that a couple of days ago, but yeah i see what you are trying to say. I really want to try and stay internally gated for simplicity of the project as i am not using a turbo manifold and dont want to make the piping overly complicated.

I confirmed that it was 7psi from factory settings from others, but ill test once i find my regulator.

I already have a small 12"x10" intercooler from an S4 which will be perfect for the job

Yeah the inspections over here suck, I don't know if they will still fail you for a soft code, or how long it takes to popup but it'll be a risk. And it even scares me how lean they run especially after turboing it.

My last thing I am trying to find out, since the K03 builds boost rather quickly is if at that 7psi will it start destroying rods because it makes good torque so low in the powerband?

[CASTREX]

My last thing I am trying to find out, since the K03 builds boost rather quickly is if at that 7psi will it start destroying rods because it makes good torque so low in the powerband?

I know the K03 is a rather small turbo... But I can tell you there is no way that a K03 will spool any faster than Garms GT2554R nor produce more HP or TQ than his ball bearing turbo...

And he has not broke anything yet...

My Brother first gen TS with the TRD turbo charger has the tiniest turbo ever.. is an IHI unit. The set up has no lag what so ever and puts out 145 Hp at the crank on a bone stock 1NZ-FE... and no problem about it.

I could see some risk of breaking a rod after 180lbs/tq and you won't get there with the set up you have in mind.... try 140-150 lbs/tq

[Nexus1155]

yeah at 7psi i think im trying to aim for around 140, might add the intercooler, but i doubt i will need it?

The only kink i am trying to workout now is the CEL, im pretty sure i can get around it eventually.

Another turbo thread said they added a MAP sensor and clamped the MAF, that seems another plausible way to attack this to tune the fuel, i just hope the O2 doesn't freak out

[changchewsoon]

Just want to share that my setup has an added MAP sensor and the MAF voltage is clamped to prevent the ECU from throwing out a CEL, its working fine for a year now.

Tuning off based on load from the MAP is probably much more accurate then looking at the TPS and the reading from the MAF alone.

[Nexus1155]

i know you added the map sensor from the e-manage, but the lowered compression was from pistons? or from a thicker headgasket? If so where did you get the headgasket...

[changchewsoon]

i know you added the map sensor from the e-manage, but the lowered compression was from pistons? or from a thicker headgasket? If so where did you get the headgasket...

I wanted to increase the thickness of the head gasket but realized that if it gets too thick we will have problem with the timing chain as it will be too tight to fit in.

Instead, the lowered compression was achieved by working on the cylinder head by porting it.

[1nz]

most NA > Turbo cars here use double headgasket since the original headgasket is already metal and very hard to find aftermarket thicker gasket hehe

[Nexus1155]

Ohhh thought you can mill it and shave off some thickness and increase the compression but i don't know how to decrease it that way?

If i end up doing this i might just double up the original head gasket and I also didn't think of the timing chain not fitting anymore that is a pretty good observation. I don't think they make them that thick to have issues most of the time though

[changchewsoon]

I do know Cometic and MLS produces metal head gasket for our 1NZ-FE, but its thinner for increasing the compression purposes rather then decreasing it.

According to Koyama at his last visit to my tuner, JUN is currently embarking on a R&D process to produce aftermarket parts for the Honda Jazz and Yaris/Vios. If thats true, then its really good news for us 1NZ-FE owners :)

[changchewsoon]

Sorry for posting at the wrong thread, but I thought of sharing this since I mentioned about JUN earlier.

They've already produced several parts for 1NZ-FE, for example this clutch kit.

http://www.junauto.co.jp/news/index-e.html?000072

[cali yaris]

We prepared two sorts of clutch disc for your driving stages.

% over stock? max torque rating?

Can't really say much about that clutch without some technical data.

[CASTREX]

Just want to share that my setup has an added MAP sensor and the MAF voltage is clamped to prevent the ECU from throwing out a CEL, its working fine for a year now.

Tuning off based on load from the MAP is probably much more accurate then looking at the TPS and the reading from the MAF alone.


That is some interesting information... can you please expalin more about it?

What MAP sensor did you used? Did you sed the one from the emanage or did you added another one?

How was the MAF signal clamped??

IIRC this is one of the problems the guys using the AEM Fic had. They were unable to clamp the MAF signal...

[changchewsoon]

% over stock? max torque rating?

Can't really say much about that clutch without some technical data.

Please don't blame them, those Japanese can be really bad in English at times, especially their vocabulary. Grammars are out of this world!

Perhaps that is why they decided to put up minimal information in their English site, and tons of information in Japanese.

[changchewsoon]

That is some interesting information... can you please expalin more about it?

What MAP sensor did you used? Did you sed the one from the emanage or did you added another one?

How was the MAF signal clamped??

IIRC this is one of the problems the guys using the AEM Fic had. They were unable to clamp the MAF signal...

I'm currently using the MAP sensor purchased from Trust Japan, JDM Vios does not come with a MAP sensor from the factory.

The MAF signal can be clamped via the E-Manage tuning software, its a standard feature that comes with E-Manage.

With an E-Manage Ultimate, you could even clamp the stock narrowband O2 voltage.

[cali yaris]

I did not mean any blame, just requesting the information someone would need to decide if they want to buy it. :smile:

[taKuto]

I'm currently using the MAP sensor purchased from Trust Japan, JDM Vios does not come with a MAP sensor from the factory.

The MAF signal can be clamped via the E-Manage tuning software, its a standard feature that comes with E-Manage.

With an E-Manage Ultimate, you could even clamp the stock narrowband O2 voltage.

where does the emanage ultimate clamp O2? I'm looking at all the wires but none of them intercept the O2 signals.

[changchewsoon]

where does the emanage ultimate clamp O2? I'm looking at all the wires but none of them intercept the O2 signals.

You need to look up the wiring diagrams, E-Manage Ultimate has an auto tune feature which you set in a AF ratio and E-Manage will try to adjust itself to dial in the AF ratio set by you.

It works by blocking the stock O2 which is narrow band and sends an adjustable lean signal to the stock ECU to keep it from pulling fuel
in a closed loop operation.

You would need to have a wideband O2 sensor installed to use the E-Manage Autotune feature.

[Nexus1155]

See now heres the thing lol, you say you are using E-manage Blue, but talk about the Ultimate as if that is what we need to tune the car. If you are using E-manage blue, are you getting any CEL at all? and are you running a decent AFR?

If you are running e-manage blue is it running in limp mode? Theres so many questions, because you are really the only one so far who seems to have got things working correctly on the yaris with no CEL and correct AFR without using a standalone system!

[taKuto]

You need to look up the wiring diagrams, E-Manage Ultimate has an auto tune feature which you set in a AF ratio and E-Manage will try to adjust itself to dial in the AF ratio set by you.

It works by blocking the stock O2 which is narrow band and sends an adjustable lean signal to the stock ECU to keep it from pulling fuel
in a closed loop operation.

You would need to have a wideband O2 sensor installed to use the E-Manage Autotune feature.

I'm currently wiring up an emanage ultimate and nowhere in the installation manual does it have any wires related to the O2. I understand the need for the wideband plugged into the serial input, but the O2 is still not handled by the emanage itself.

All i've been reading on the internet is that people are making/buying an o2 clamp. I'd imagine it's just a comparator or something feeding the lean voltage to the o2 once you're in boost, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to make one.

[changchewsoon]

See now heres the thing lol, you say you are using E-manage Blue, but talk about the Ultimate as if that is what we need to tune the car. If you are using E-manage blue, are you getting any CEL at all? and are you running a decent AFR?

If you are running e-manage blue is it running in limp mode? Theres so many questions, because you are really the only one so far who seems to have got things working correctly on the yaris with no CEL and correct AFR without using a standalone system!

I'm actually not the only Vios owner back here in Malaysia who has a bolt-on kit running E-Manage Blue without the CEL, I do know there's at least another half a doz of members from our club here whose currently running a E-Manage Blue/Ultimate setup with a BOT kit as well. However I do know majority of other boosted owners here went with Dastek Unichip, because it has a lot more features such VVT-i control, boost/nitrous control, launch control, full throttle gear shift etc.

Main reason why I went with a economic E-Manage Blue for the moment being is because I'm saving to upgrade to a standalone system once my forged internals arrive for the engine.

I upgraded my Innovate LC-1 wideband 02 to LM-2 because it allows you to simulate a narrowband signal to the ECU separately from the wideband, thus fooling the ECU.

By the way, I understand from some of the posts here that there is a difference between the JDM ECU and USDM ECU. I am not sure whether this could be one of the reasons why the E-Manage or any aftermarket piggybacks is potentially causing a CEL to be thrown its wired up.

I'll try to share as much information I can, please do let me know if you inquiries on my current setup and I'll try my best to share it.

[ChinoCharles]

Question for our install this morning... the manufacturers of the kit I bought tapped the block for the oil feed. We want to skip all that work and tap the pan. Any reason why that would be a bad thing?

[changchewsoon]

I'm currently wiring up an emanage ultimate and nowhere in the installation manual does it have any wires related to the O2. I understand the need for the wideband plugged into the serial input, but the O2 is still not handled by the emanage itself.

All i've been reading on the internet is that people are making/buying an o2 clamp. I'd imagine it's just a comparator or something feeding the lean voltage to the o2 once you're in boost, shouldn't be too hard to figure out how to make one.

Dear Takuto,

Apologize for the confusion, a wideband O2 is exactly what I was trying to say regarding the wiring of E-Manage Ultimate which is for the autotune feature. An O2 clamp/simulator is mandatory, I missed out the wideband O2 simulator I'm using.

It works by blocking the stock O2 which is narrow band and sends an adjustable lean signal to the stock ECU to keep it from pulling fuel
in a closed loop operation. <----My LM-2 does the job.

For the narrowband O2, like you said you could either clamp it or use a simulator. Personally, I think using a simulator is better as you could tune narrowband rather then clamping it at a fixed voltage.

[changchewsoon]

Question for our install this morning... the manufacturers of the kit I bought tapped the block for the oil feed. We want to skip all that work and tap the pan. Any reason why that would be a bad thing?

Hi ChinoCharles,

Are you planning to tap the oil pan for both the feed/return of the oil for your turbo?

I would recommend you to tap the feed from your oil pressure sender and tap the pan for your return. You want to do that to ensure your turbo gets the oil feed via a constant pressure.

I too asked my tuner to skip all the work and tap everything right off the pan, his justification is that if we're driving the car in extreme conditions such as taking a hard corner fast, the oil inside the pan could be "pushed" against the side wall of the pan, and there is a chance of a vacuum being created resulting a situation whereby there will be a temporary cut of supply of the oil to the turbo. Not sure whether it makes any sense to you.

Also, if we're tapping the feed off the pan we need to calculate the correct height. Too high we might not be able to guarantee a steady supply, too low we risk sucking up all the particles at the bottom of the pan, although you could minimize the risk by using a magnetic bolt nut or use a magnetic oil filter such as one from Power Enterprise.

Alternatively, you can just use an oil sandwich adapter and add a pressure and temperature sensor for monitoring purposes as well.

But I would recommend you to use the oil sandwich adapter for an engine oil cooler, as the oil will be warmer since it is shared by the turbo as well. It is really a good investment even you're not planning to take car to a track or down the drag strip.

Just my 2 cents!

[ChinoCharles]

Makes sense. The reason ZPI tapped the block was beause tapping the pan leaves that line exposed to road hazards. We will figure something out. Thanks!

[Black Yaris]

I hurt...... but doing chino's swap, the feed line is off the oil press sen on the front of the block and the return was tapped into the block just above the pan.... only down fall to tapping the pan would be that it hangs kinda low

oh yeah.... and I hurt

[eTiMaGo]

aw don't worry, Joe, Charles will give you a lovely massage in thanks of your hard work :biggrin:

But yeah now that I think about it, the return line, doesn't really matter where it sends up, right? It's not picking up fresh oil, just returning the hot one from the turbo housing...

[Black Yaris]

we got the return line tapped into the oil pan right next to the oil plug fine

all that needs done is running the e-manage, then it should be a-ok

took us longer than we thought

[Black Yaris]

just to let everyone know Chino made it home with a fully boosted ride

[taKuto]

sounds great, lots of pictures! :)

any way you could pull the emanage maps ?

[Black Yaris]

he ran with the tune that was put in there from ZPI back when it was installed on the other car.... I am sure he is going to tweek some things, then get it retuned......

object this weekend was to safely get Chino home with his car

[ChinoCharles]

First step is a new exhaust. Probably this weekend.

Yes, I will post ZPI's emanage maps.