Reluctant upshift to 3rd while cold (auto trans)

[pauljk]

My Yaris Liftback automatic now has about 5500 miles on it, and it's been doing something a bit strange in the morning. I leave the house and go about .25 miles and 2 stop signs at less than 25 mph before turning onto a 35 mph road. When I accelerate on that road, it doesn't want to shift out of 2nd. So, at 30 mph, the engine's at 3000 rpm (I have a Scangauge).

If I back off the gas at that point, i.e. stop accelerating, but don't take my foot off entirely, it stays in 2nd. If I back off enough that the car starts slowing down, it will finally upshift. The cold light is on during this time. Once the cold light goes off, everything's normal.

I know it's not supposed to go to 4th gear until cold light goes off, but it seems rather strange for a cold engine to want to be above 3000 rpm.

Has anyone else run into this? I've only noticed this recently, but then the weather was a lot hotter during my earlier miles.

Also, when I first start it in the garage with it still in park, it ramps up to over 1500 rpm. Seems rather high to me. It gradually comes down, or will drop when I shift to reverse.

Paul

[MWill517]

I have noticed the same with my auto sedan. This was discussed on another board I participate in. Seems like a common problem (if it is a problem) in cold starts /driving. I usually let the car warm up a minute (cold lite goes out) before taking off.

[Chris07LB]

Same happends to me.

[ChinoCharles]

I usually let the car warm up a minute (cold lite goes out) before taking off.

That is a good habit anyway. Engines hate running cold... shoot, if you're in cold weather and you have a garage a block heater wouldn't hurt either. You wouldn't have to wait.

[nsmitchell]

I have seen/felt this as well. I don't have a tach so I cant really tell if it in 2nd or 3rd gear when it does it...

While searching for info I found this awesome PDF on yarii.com. Specs for the engine and systems.

[slvryaris]

Same thing has happened to me. When I went to test drive my Yaris the guy at the dealership said the cold light stayed on until it was at "operating temperature". My friends XB also did the same thing. He would wait until the light went off to drive his.

[rstb88]

actually the owners manual states its better for the vehicle to reach operating temperature while driving(gently). At a standstill its bad for the engine.

[JustAnotherAsian]

just a thought- the engine and catalytic converter needs warming up- staying in the lower gears (but at the same time not letting the revs go high) lets that happen as quickly as possible.

[07WYarisRS]

Don't worrry about it !

It's not a problem it designed this way...
just like most cars with locking tourque convertors or over drive they don't upshift until properly warmed up.
My Laser and my S-10 took severl miles of driving before it shifted and the TCL worked normally.
In the winter it is held back even more

My advice is let the car warm up 30 seconds to a minute and then drive it easy until the "cool" light goes out then you are good to go.

[ECHOKnight2000]

Actually this is "normal." For auto trannys as far as Toyota's go. It did the same thing with my 87 Van (previous car) and it does it with my 03 ECHO, don't notice it too much in my moms 2000 Camry but I'm sure it does it.

Its for emissions, when the engine is cold it pollutes the most (think of bad morning breath:biggrin: :laugh: :laugh:), so to warm it up fast it won't upshift into overdrive (4th gear)-obviously an engine pollutes no matter what its just more when its cold. That's from what I read and yes when the blue light goes off it will upshift into the highest or higher gear. Although this is weather effected so in colder weather it will take a little longer to warm up which is a give in. For me its annoying at times but I've learned to deal with it, there are bigger fish to fry...or bake or microwave, whatever you like!:laugh: :laugh:

[pauljk]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I feel better knowing it's normal, though I'm not sure it's that great for the engine. I like to keep revs low when the engine's cold.

And I have been driving that block easily - it's not that it's shifting late because I have my foot in it. I've taken it extra easy accelerating there because it will generally upshift sooner if you're not accelerating hard.

Oh well - guess I won't worry about it.

As for letting engine warm up in garage, I've always heard that's worse for the engine than driving it cold (as long as we're not talking sub-zero temps).

So, do you guys also find the revs shoot up to 1500-1700 or so when you first start it cold?

Paul

[07WYarisRS]

it's better for the car to hold the shift and run at higher rpm with little load then run hard under heavy load.

It does not hurt the car to warm up for 30 seconds before driving off.
it gives the cylinders a chance to warm up and expand a bit reducing the affects of cold seizing/4 point scuffing from revving or running a cold engine under load.

[foober]

I was taught by my dad years ago to always have your engine warm up idleing for around 5 minutes before you take off. As a couple of guys have mentioned. Engines are built to run heated up not cold. My one truck has 160,000 miles on it and the engine on it is like brand new my mechanic has said. Plus I only use mobil one oil.

But always warm your engine up for a couple minutes before you put any torque on the engine. Works for me anyway. I know in this rush rush world everyone has to hurry. So good luck.

[Chris07LB]

This car does not need to "idle" to warm up, for any amount of time.. Toyota suggests driving slower to gradually get the engine up to operating temp., before driving high speeds.

Also, no amount of idling will warm up your transmission fluid (automatic), it needs to go thru the gears, to get the oil circulating/warming up.. so once again, driving a little slower/cautious the first few minutes is better then sitting in the garage warming up... plus your just wasting gas.

All info above can be found in the Yaris shop manual.

[foober]

This car does not need to "idle" to warm up, for any amount of time.. Toyota suggests driving slower to gradually get the engine up to operating temp., before driving high speeds.

Also, no amount of idling will warm up your transmission fluid (automatic), it needs to go thru the gears, to get the oil circulating/warming up.. so once again, driving a little slower/cautious the first few minutes is better then sitting in the garage warming up... plus your just wasting gas.

All info above can be found in the Yaris shop manual.

Thanks for that info. about the transmission. I'll still idle my car for a few minutes till the engines warmed up though before I drive it. I kind of want it for the next 200,000 miles.

[07WYarisRS]

Most fuel injected engines are designed to run with very little to no warm up but how you drive or operate the engine for the first 5 minutes will greatly affect how well and how long the engine lives.
Aluminum pistons and steel cylinder expand at much different rates. An aluminum piston will exspand faster and that can cause serious issues with clearance and causes 4 point scuffing and cold seizures in the worst cases.
ALL the fuel injection system does is dump in an extra rich mixture to help the engine warm up faster regardless if you are driving or not. This extra rich mixture is less harmfull to the cars emmisions system if you are operating under load (when more fuel is being used and not waisted) then just idling.

BUT that being said the person that lets his engine idle for 30 seconds a minute or so is not going to shorten the life of the engine or any components by letting it warm up for a bit.

Operating any engine outside of normal operating temps will shorten the life of the engine, the harder you drive it outside of normal operating temps the faster it will wear it out.
the "COOL" indicator in the gauge cluster is a great indicator of when the engine is warmed up and can be driven normally.

[Bidoup]

Thanks guy for all the info... i have the same "problem" (well can't call that a problem since its normal) and I think i'm gonna let the engine runs 30 sec - 1 min before starting now....

[palsan]

Most fuel injected engines are designed to run with very little to no warm up but how you drive or operate the engine for the first 5 minutes will greatly affect how well and how long the engine lives.
Aluminum pistons and steel cylinder expand at much different rates. An aluminum piston will exspand faster and that can cause serious issues with clearance and causes 4 point scuffing and cold seizures in the worst cases.
ALL the fuel injection system does is dump in an extra rich mixture to help the engine warm up faster regardless if you are driving or not. This extra rich mixture is less harmfull to the cars emmisions system if you are operating under load (when more fuel is being used and not waisted) then just idling.

BUT that being said the person that lets his engine idle for 30 seconds a minute or so is not going to shorten the life of the engine or any components by letting it warm up for a bit.

Operating any engine outside of normal operating temps will shorten the life of the engine, the harder you drive it outside of normal operating temps the faster it will wear it out.
the "COOL" indicator in the gauge cluster is a great indicator of when the engine is warmed up and can be driven normally.

Plugged in the block heater for the first time last night (low of -2C, 29F).:thumbup:

I have been letting the engine run for about a minute in the driveway before pulling out, then drive slow (~30Km/hr) until the "COOL" indicator goes off. The last few mornings it has taken about 5 minutes. This morning it took less than 2 minutes for the indicator to go off - awsome!

If it's true that starting and running at cold temperatures is hard on the engine, then getting up to "ideal" temp quicker should extend engine life. The block heater seems to have helped get the engine up to temperature quicker.

Soooooo ... the Cdn$175 cost of the block heater, plus a bit of cost on electricity, appears to be a cheap form of engine insurance for cold climate drivers :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

The only problem is REMEMBERING to plug it in at night and UNPLUGGING it in the morning.:laugh:

[07WYarisRS]

Right on
I run my block heater with a timer so it comes on at 2am shuts off at 9am
My extention cord is already in the driveway with an LED lighted end on it so it's easy to plug in even in the dark.

I still have to wait a couple minutes every morning just to let the windows defrost but it's nice getting into a car, starting it and having instant warm heater air.

[palsan]

Right on
I run my block heater with a timer so it comes on at 2am shuts off at 9am
My extention cord is already in the driveway with an LED lighted end on it so it's easy to plug in even in the dark.

I still have to wait a couple minutes every morning just to let the windows defrost but it's nice getting into a car, starting it and having instant warm heater air.

Great idea about the timer.:thumbsup:

I didn't notice the instant warm air since I usually have it turned off until a few minutes after start-up. However, that is a huge bonus ... no more cold air in your face until the engine warms up.:thumbup:

[Reddington]

My 1995 corolla will stay in 3rd and not shift to 4th until it warms up. I think its just designed to get it up to optimum temperature quickly

[BMGYaris]

GUYS you need to READ carefully, he knows that it wont shift into overdrive--4th gear--the issue here is that the car will not naturally move into third gear. I have found def had this problem on my car, i dont have a scanguage but im pretty sure it is getting over 3k rpm sometimes, its get very loud. It doesnt matter how slowly you accelerate, the problem is that while the engine is cold it does not want o shift into third, and i think not shifting into THIRD is a problem isnt it?

so many people dont read and think that he is talking about fourth gear that it is very difficult to know who is giving accurate info and who is not.

[07WYarisRS]

It's not a problem

Until it's up to temps it's going to hold shifts
If it's cold enough it may even hold the shift going into 2nd like my plymouth did.

[PetersRedYaris]

I believe at least 30 sec. to 1 min. should be allowed to let the oil fully circulate. Also, even after the cold engine light goes out the tranny may not be fully warmed up. If you want long life out of your car, I would allow minimal warm up, and drive softly for at least 5 miles.

[60 Somethings]

There was a noticable switch in the recommendation for warming-up an engine from sitting there for 3-4 minutes to just drive-off gently, something like 30 yrs ago.

We drive-off gently rather than sitting there and warming-up. In all but one case (a 1986 Trooper - rebuilt around 160K miles), our engine has outlasted the rest of the vehicle.

Our HB stick-shift also revs up to around 1,500 RPM when started cold, per the ScanGauge. We have about a 4 block drive to the 1st main intersection and the engine usually gets to (or close to) 130 degrees - where the cool engine light shuts off. However, "normal operating temp" appears to be in the 184-190 degree range.

[Greg66]

Most modern cars are designed to drive right away without idle time. In some parts of our world it is actually illegal, allthough not often enforced, to idle your car as to not contribute to our ever growing SMOG issues. I think you will discover in the very near future that these laws will come into effect here also.

[Lowfront]

ok but I got a remote starter. So you guys are seriously saying that its bad for the engine to let it warm up for 5 min?...

[07WYarisRS]

ok but I got a remote starter. So you guys are seriously saying that its bad for the engine to let it warm up for 5 min?...

No it's not bad for and engine to warm up, but 5 minutes is way overkill.

[41magmag41]

I too have noticed the failure to jump right into 4th (overdrive) on my 2007 sedan. I will agree with you all that it's a operating temp shift. Asked the dealer and Toyota and the transmission has a sensor in it that won't allow the shift to overdrive until the transmission reaches operating temp. I had two Suzukis, and xl7 and grand vitara, that did the same thing. The new age of electronics. Just drive reasonable and when the cool light goes off you should be all set.

[xpeteyjtx]

The repair manual states that 4th gear is prohibited if coolant temp is 60 degrees Celcius (140 degrees Farenheit) or less or if the ATF temperature is 10 degrees Celcius (50 degrees farenheit) or less.

The manual doesn't give a straight-forward explaination about a 3rd gear prohibition. It goes on about different parameters that are checked and a whole bunch of other stuff that I didn't feel like reading.

The bottom line is, 3rd gear may be prohibited, maybe even 2nd in rare instances. 3rd gear for me is sometimes prohibited, it's not a malfunction, don't worry about it.

[Pavel Olavich]

Thanks for that info. about the transmission. I'll still idle my car for a few minutes till the engines warmed up though before I drive it. I kind of want it for the next 200,000 miles.

Letting it idle to warm it up will do NOTHING to extend the life of the engine....better to start it, then start driving it, but slow and easy until the cold temp light goes off, then gradually get more aggressive with your driving.

The late shifting of the auto tranny while driving happens until the water temperature gets to 130F, then the car will shift as normal...this is the car's way of warming up while yuo drive....don't waste gas with idleing....you only fool yourself when you do this, and the car has no benefit. None, over just driving it immediately, slowly at first.

[Jimb442]

here's my 2cents worth. I too read early on that the transmission will not shift to 4th until the engine reaches a temp set by the manufacturer ie. the cold light must be out. This is reasonable and allows you to reach speeds of 80km in 3rd without reving too high which is good enough for city driving at least.

Not shifting to 3rd however I believe is an issue. The car is not designed to do this and I've never owned a car that holds onto a gear like this. Even a cold start in relatively mild temps still cause the shift issue. Another reason I believe it's a problem and not just a normal function of any cold auto trans like some on here are stating is mine seems to be getting worse plus and more importantly, IT DIDN'T ALWAYS DO IT! I took mine in for the issue before the warranty ran out and of course Toyota could find nothing wrong as I kind of expected. I'm glad I took it in at least during the warranty period and it's on the dealers books for that so when I take it in again, hopefully it will still be covered. If I knew that it would never amount to anything more than a 1 minute delay in shifting to 3rd then I would probably just leave it alone but I'm not convinced that's all it will be. Suit yourself, but I'm getting it checked out and obviously there are a lot of other owners (but I bet not 100%) that are having the same problem so it can't be a normal function of this car.

Now after all this, I tried reading through some of the posts, did anybody actually take his/her yaris in and successfully fix this problem. Sorry it that's already been covered and I missed it.

[Hershey]

our 2008 sedan does the same thing . The 2010 3 door goes as far as 3rd until blue light goes out . Maybe the computer system for the tranny needs a reboot for the shifting points . Unhooked the battery for over 2 hours to no avail .

[yaris-me]

We keep covering the same thing over and over again. The ECU manages the warm up. It runs at a higher idle and delays up shift while cold. Till about 1/8 of a mile it will hold back the up shift. This is NORMAL! It takes 3 to 5 miles to warm up the engine and the engine and transmission will run normally.

[BLH]

My 2007 is the same way.
When cold in the winter. It takes a few slow miles to warm it up enough to go into 3rd.
Forth as mentioned is not available until the cold light goes out.

[Hershey]

ours still occurs during the warmer spring . Shouldn't be the case . Got to take it to TOYO service center soon due to a possible oil leak . May bring up the staying in 2nd gear for about 1/4 > 1/2 mile then going to 3rd and then finally to overdrive when BLUE light disappears .

[Yaris Hilton]

It's normal. The blue "COOL!" light goes out a bit before the transmission upshifts to high. Someone recently posted the coolant temperatures the ECU looks for, something close to 130°F to turn out the COOL! light, and close to 140° to let the tranny shift normally IIRC. Don't bug the service people, they can't change it for you.

[Hershey]

our car , our call . :rolleyes:

[yarissedan07]

OK,
My car will not shift into 4th upon a cool start!! It's fine once warmed up but I don't have time to wait around, I'm busy. I have had my car 4 years since it was a baby. Only 2 miles when I bought it. Now I Have 59,000 miles. It just started doing this recently???? They told me this is how the car was designed ,but it just started recently!!! I'm not buying this explanation.:mad: I wouldn't have bought the car if it did this!!!! Anyone else notice this over time??

[yarissedan07]

OK,
My car will not shift into 4th upon a cool start!! It's fine once warmed up but I don't have time to wait around, I'm busy. I have had my car 4 years since it was a baby. Only 2 miles when I bought it. Now I Have 59,000 miles. It just started doing this recently???? They told me this is how the car was designed ,but it just started recently!!! I'm not buying this explanation. I wouldn't have bought the car if it did this!!!! Anyone else notice this over time??

[BLH]

My 2007 from the day I purchased it new. Has not or will not go into 4th until the "cool" symbol on the dash goes off. And if real cold still may not until the transmission is warmed up.