The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[eTiMaGo]

This is a thread open to everyone to discuss politics and debate amongst each other. It will be lightly moderated (i.e. flaming, ranting and soapbox kind of posts, that would be inappropriate in other threads, are fine, but personal attacks are not. In light of the current President of the USA, racist and bigoted comments won't be tolerated either).

Two important notes:

1) This will be the ONLY political-related thread on YarisWorld. Any new thread/posts which we deem suitable, will be merged into this one.

2) While we will be lenient on aggressive behavior <b>in this thread</b>, if you bring that attitude into the rest of the forum, we will deal with it as with any other public flaming. Be prepared and have a thick skin.

Suggestions, comments, we're just a PM away...

[eTiMaGo]

Looks like I'll get the ball rolling... As we are aware, there's talks of Texas seceding from the rest of the US, becoming its own country... And who has stepped up to become president? None other than Chuck Norris... Are we to take this seriously? discuss.

[SIPNGAS]

It's just sad this "politics only thread" was implemented only after we lost a couple of good, albeit controversial in thought, members.

[SailDesign]

Looks like I'll get the ball rolling... As we are aware, there's talks of Texas seceding from the rest of the US, becoming its own country... And who has stepped up to become president? None other than Chuck Norris... Are we to take this seriously? discuss.

Did we take Ronald Ray-gun seriuosly when he ran for President of the Whole Shebang? Kinda.... :smile:
I guess if Chuck is the kinda guy that Texans WANT for a president, that'll work, but be careful what you wish for.

[MadMax]

No problem, we can create new ones!

As a resident of the Lone Star State, I can assure you that the recent political humor and comments from governor Rick Perry about succession have no serious basis. The recent Tea Part protests have probably been the catalyst for such talk, but the truth is that there is about as much chance of Texas becoming an independent republic again as my Yaris doing a 7.592 second quarter mile time at the local drag strip.*

I think all the talk is simply because of some of the radical proposals by the new administration. It has nothing to do with loyalty to the previous one either, whereas GW's popularity is probably higher in Texas than it is in most other parts of the country, his term as president has done nothing to encourage or support the alleged discussions on succession.

When Texas says it is like "A Whole Other Country," there is a lot of truth behind that statement. It is not an attempt to separate itself from the Union, but a recognition of the unique history and mindset that exists here. It is obviously not everyone's cup of tea, but I challenge you to find any state who the majority of its residents are as loyal to it as Texas. And that 'mystic' is even recognized all over the world, when I tell people I am from here it always generates much interest and enthusiasm that never occurred when I mentioned other states I have lived in (Florida, Maryland, Idaho, etc).

The bottom line is that all this talk about succession is just that, talk! But if there was any one state that would have the cojones to succeed, it would be Texas!

And, just to keep this thread going, as I am really appreciative of the moderators for allowing us such candid and open discussion; one of other reasons I like Texas so much is it is a very pro-gun state. Now, I also understand that not everyone feels that way; but I would still like to hear your non-hostile reasons for your opinion, just so we can discuss the issues and not attack anyone personally. It is far from being a cut-and-dry topic, as there are valid arguments for both sides; but in my opinion I believe there was clear intent on the part of our forefathers for including the Second Amendment in our Constitution, and I do not believe any administration should have the right to put restrictions on that which has been clearly stated in the governing document for this country!

Cheers! M2


* - That 1/4 mile time was posted by a 1987 Buick Grand National T-Type (http://www.dragtimes.com/Buick-Grand-National-Timeslip-6744.html)

[MadMax]

Sorry, I forgot to mention that Chuck Norris has about a snowball's chance on a mid-summer San Antonio day of serving in any elected position down here in Texas. His comments on World Net Daily (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=91103) and on Glenn Beck's radio show just show how out of touch the man is with reality. I think he's taken a few too many roundhouse kicks to the old cranium!

Anyhow, he isn't even a native, he is originally from Oklahoma and his only connection to this state is that lousy TV show he did (I've met numerous Texas Rangers, and they are nothing like the character he played). Sure, it may have emulated Texas values, but it was way too campy to be taken seriously down here. It would be the same as thinking the old Batman TV show (which rocked, by the way!) from the 60s was real!

Not everyone down here are like Hank and Peggy Hill (but I gotta admit they do characterize many old school Texans I have met!).

Cheers! M2

[Bob_VT]

I believe that some members are owed an apology. Reverse racism is applied here daily and it is not a good sign.

People with the power have abused it and thrown it into people faces.

The TX thing is not new..... there have been threats like that in New England for quite some time.

[BLAZINBLUEVITZ]

I believe that some members are owed an apology. Reverse racism is applied here daily and it is not a good sign.

People with the power have abused it and thrown it into people faces.

.
:eek:

[Bob_VT]

The primary reason is that the posts moved from political to personal. When a moderator comments in any post in the capacity of a regular member then he/she can no longer remain objective and surrenders the ability to "moderate" in that thread.

I enjoy the fact that eTiMaGo who is French.... living in Thailand.... with an American quote in his signature participates. Someone has to keep the Canadians and Aussies in check!!!!

Keep this in mind..... we (members in the USA) pay the politicians salary.... we have the right to get upset ....... we pay for it!

[MadMax]

And just to show that you can't completely generalize a politician by their party, the following has re-invigorated my faith in some members of the Democratic party...


Wednesday, March 18, 2009

Today in a letter to Attorney General Eric Holder (http://www.nraila.org/media/PDFs/AWBLettertoHolder309.pdf), 65 Democrats in the U.S. House of Representatives, led by Congressman Mike Ross (D-AR), expressed their opposition to the reinstatement of the failed 1994 ban on semi-automatic firearms and ammunition magazines. These congressmen cited numerous studies that proved the 1994 ban was ineffective, and they strongly urged Attorney General Holder to stop his effort and instead focus on the enforcement of existing gun laws.

:clap::clap::clap::clap: to those who decided to represent their constituents, and not the views of some in their party! This is a major bipartisan move on some in the Democrat party, and I hope the GOP not only recognize this but also ensures those representatives receive due credit!

Cheers! M2

[jambo101]

Keep this in mind..... we (members in the USA) pay the politicians salary.... we have the right to get upset ....... we pay for it!

Its just astounding the rest of the world at what poor losers the republicans are to the point that various factions want to succede from their own country:eek:. just lighten up its just another president whos reign will come and go just like the rest and America will still be a great place to live when he's gone.
On a recent trip to Florida i noticed a media phenomenon that the rest of the world doesnt see and thats shows like Rush Limbaugh,Glen Beck,Hannity,Coulter, and a plethora of others who are making big bucks by trashing the countries new president on a daily basis and inciting the defeated republicans with every mannor of trashtalk they can think up.

eTiMaGo you may regret opening up this political can of worms.

[SailDesign]

<snip>

one of other reasons I like Texas so much is it is a very pro-gun state. Now, I also understand that not everyone feels that way; but I would still like to hear your non-hostile reasons for your opinion, just so we can discuss the issues and not attack anyone personally. It is far from being a cut-and-dry topic, as there are valid arguments for both sides; but in my opinion I believe there was clear intent on the part of our forefathers for including the Second Amendment in our Constitution, and I do not believe any administration should have the right to put restrictions on that which has been clearly stated in the governing document for this country!



Guns - a fun topic, and for some reason VERY contentious over here.

Let me explain my own background first, as itr has bearingon my opinions. I was born in the States, but was moved to England at the age of 5. I grew up there, thinking Limey and sounding Limey and generally not worrying much about the fact that I was a US citizen all the time.

In the UK, whe nI lived ther, you could have a gun if you wanted, but you needed a license. Famrers could have shotguns or rifles for pest control or sporting reasons, target shooters could have target guns, and so on. BUT - you needed to have each gun registered and a license to own it.

Then came Dunblane, and all kinds of guns were outlawed, including the very guns and ammunition used in Olympic pistol shooting. The whole British team had to practice in France.

In 1984, I moved to the States again, with an English wife and kids. I reclaimed the .22 target rifle I used while briefly at college here, a Winchester 52, and over time (we lived on a arm) added a 20ga shotgun and a couple of "sporting" rifles to the collection. I joined the NRA so I could shoot competitively, but un-joined when every week saw another rabid pro-gun advert, or another invitation to "protect my rights" by giving $$ to the Legal Fund.

My own view is that all guns should be registered. Just like cars. Do you bitch about having to register a car? Probably not - it is just one of those things you accept. I know some municipalities have a limit on how many cars you can own without being termed a "fleet" and being subject to an addition tax or license. On the island I live on, there is a limit to how many dogs you can own without being considered a "kennel" and having to apply for a license. This is small-town politics, and I can easily see a town saying "register your guns, but if you have more than (say) 20, we will consider you an "arsenal" and you wil need a special permit". Again if you are not breaking the law with them, then you have nothing to fear (except NRA-style paranoia).

I would register all of my guns in a heartbeat, but the local PD does not have a protocol for that.

My 2-cents.

[MadMax]

Sail

I see a difference between the registration of cars (which are to be used on public roadways) and the registration of guns (which normally are not used in public). I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

OK, let me provide a little background on myself before people incorrectly assume I am a right-wing nutjob, I was born in Germany to an American father and naturalized mother who was a German national. I spent a fair bit of my youth in Europe and more time after I joined the Air Force after high school. I have been stationed in Europe several times and still travel back there once or twice a year. But I have since retired after nearly 25 years in the military but I still work for the DoD as a contractor. So my mindset is heavily influenced not only by where I live (Texas) but also where my history lies (Europe). As you know, when it comes to guns, those two heavily conflict; but at least I am familiar with both sides of the argument.

So, having spent nearly a quarter of a century defending the very Constitution that gives Americans the right to own firearms, I strongly believe the government has no right to interfere with that. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say we have the right to drive cars, mainly because cars didn't exist when it was written but it still hasn't been added.

Firearm registration has no use unless it is for future confiscation of said weapons. It did in Canada. The handgun registration law of 1934 was the source used to identify and confiscate (without compensation) over half of the registered handguns in 2001. It also did in Germany. The 1928 Law on Firearms and Ammunition (before the Nazis came to power) required all firearms to be registered. When Hitler came to power, the existing lists were used for confiscating weapons. Also in Australia, where in 1996, the Australian government confiscated over 660,000 previously legal weapons from their citizens. And even in the US, in California. The 1989 Roberti-Roos Assault Weapons Control Act required registration. Due to shifting definitions of “assault weapons,” many legal firearms were confiscated by the California government. Also in New York City. In 1967, New York City passed an ordinance requiring a citizen to obtain a permit to own a rifle or shotgun, which would then be registered. In 1991, the city passed a ban on the private possession of some semi-automatic rifles and shotguns, and “registered” owners were told that those firearms had to be surrendered, rendered inoperable, or taken out of the city. It happened in Bermuda, Cuba, Greece, Ireland, Jamaica, and Soviet Georgia as well.

It also does not prevent crime or help in solving it. Registration is required in Hawaii, Chicago, and Washington D.C. Yet there has not been a single case where registration was instrumental in identifying someone who committed a crime.140 Criminals very rarely leave their guns at the scene of the crime. Would-be criminals also virtually never get licenses or register their weapons. It didn't happen in in Canada. Canadian homicide rates were virtually unchanged before and after gun registration requirements were implemented (151/100,000 people in 1998 and 149/100,000 in 2002).

I have the sources for all those stats, I just didn't feel like listing them all; but if you are interested they can all be found at GunFacts.info

The government does not require me to license any other dangerous instrument that I own (ax, hammers, lawn mowers, etc), so why my firearm?

And I am a registered gun owner in Texas, by virtue of having a concealed handgun license; but there is no firearm registration here and many believe that they shouldn't require the state's permission to carry a firearm as that right has already been provided by the Second Amendment. In some ways that is a very compelling argument!

Cheers! M2

[eTiMaGo]

Its just astounding the rest of the world at what poor losers the republicans are to the point that various factions want to succede from their own country:eek:. just lighten up its just another president whos reign will come and go just like the rest and America will still be a great place to live when he's gone.
On a recent trip to Florida i noticed a media phenomenon that the rest of the world doesnt see and thats shows like Rush Limbaugh,Glen Beck,Hannity,Coulter, and a plethora of others who are making big bucks by trashing the countries new president on a daily basis and inciting the defeated republicans with every mannor of trashtalk they can think up.

eTiMaGo you may regret opening up this political can of worms.

Well I am not the most politically-savvy person around... I admit I enjoy taking potshops at W as much as anyone else, but on the other hand I often ask myself if it;s really fair, how would Gore have handled 9/11 and its aftermath? (or more scarily, would it have even happened?)

So in the same line of thinking, I don't quite understand all the ragging on Obama.. Sure, he made a lot of promises (what politician doesn't?), but he's only been in office for what, 3 months and people are clamoring for instant hope and change... Give the guy some time is all I say.. What if McCain had won? Would he have turned the world economy around by now?

And that's just the problem with politics, no matter what happens, there'll be a large group of people opposed to it and making noise (or worse, look at the events over here in the past year). Heck, wasn't it Lincoln who said you can only please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time?

I mean, think about it... The only way to get everyone to stop bitching is for money and high paying jobs to fall out of the sky... the world does not really work that way, sadly!

[SailDesign]

Sail

I see a difference between the registration of cars (which are to be used on public roadways) and the registration of guns (which normally are not used in public). I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

<humungous snippage>

And I am a registered gun owner in Texas, by virtue of having a concealed handgun license; but there is no firearm registration here and many believe that they shouldn't require the state's permission to carry a firearm as that right has already been provided by the Second Amendment. In some ways that is a very compelling argument!

Cheers! M2

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. :smile:
I know we don't HAVE to do that in this thread, but maybe we can set the standard.

[cali yaris]

:clap:

[MadMax]

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree here. :smile:
I know we don't HAVE to do that in this thread, but maybe we can set the standard.

I am good with that, I appreciate your inputs and respect your opinion; and I believe you are doing the same for me.

I don't think the goal should be to sway everyone to one side of a topic or another, but instead to post their beliefs and supporting evidence. If after reading the submissions a person changes their stance, that's great; but the desired result should be that everyone gets to state their opinion.

Cheers! M2

[frownonfun]

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it. i think this is a bad idea for the record but i do hope everyone remains somewhat civil. i'll be following the thread nonetheless.

subscribed.

[supmet]

I fully agree with the need to have a license to conceal carry, once again the protection of the public is the primary driver in requiring that, but honestly what business is it of the government what guns I own?

How about to solve murder cases?? I just watched some report on gun shows. Some dude bought like 7 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 2 pistols at a gun show without ever showing ID. That's just fucking crazy.. If you think that's OK, then there is no point to rational discussion. Someone out on parole for murder can go buy a small arsenal of weapons and ammo, no questions asked, no paperwork.

Now my question - honestly what business is it of the government what drugs I smoke?

[SailDesign]

I am good with that, I appreciate your inputs and respect your opinion; and I believe you are doing the same for me.

I don't think the goal should be to sway everyone to one side of a topic or another, but instead to post their beliefs and supporting evidence. If after reading the submissions a person changes their stance, that's great; but the desired result should be that everyone gets to state their opinion.

Cheers! M2

Likewise.

[jambo101]

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it. i think this is a bad idea for the record but i do hope everyone remains somewhat civil. i'll be following the thread nonetheless.

subscribed.
:biggrin:I've seen too many other forums adopt a political topic,it usually deteriorates to a pissing contest quickly.
If you happen to believe the people of a civilized society dont need guns the pro gun people have all the answers to tell you why it does.
If you are a Democrat/Liberal you will never convince a Republican/conservative that your form of government has merit.So whats the point in arguing the issues on a Yaris forum?

[1NZYaris1]

The primary reason is that the posts moved from political to personal. When a moderator comments in any post in the capacity of a regular member then he/she can no longer remain objective and surrenders the ability to "moderate" in that thread.

I enjoy the fact that eTiMaGo who is French.... living in Thailand.... with an American quote in his signature participates. Someone has to keep the Canadians and Aussies in check!!!!

Keep this in mind..... we (members in the USA) pay the politicians salary.... we have the right to get upset ....... we pay for it!

:rolleyes: Aussie bashing does not belong in this thread :laugh: ,
That's a job for us KIWI's :bow:, and we are aloud to do it anytime and anywhere. :bellyroll: :laugh: just joking . anyone can make fun of an Aussie :thumbup:

[SailDesign]

:biggrin:I've seen too many other forums adopt a political topic,it usually deteriorates to a pissing contest quickly.
If you happen to believe the people of a civilized society dont need guns the pro gun people have all the answers to tell you why it does.
If you are a Democrat/Liberal you will never convince a Republican/conservative that your form of government has merit.So whats the point in arguing the issues on a Yaris forum?

And the world is a better place for the ability to discuss therse things.

[tomato]

must ... resist... urge... to argue. lol. man this thread is tempting. still i'm not gonna do it.

I'm sitting on my hands too! :biggrin:

[NJBob]

Guns: What is finally being dealt with is clamping down on illegal gun sources such as "Straw Men". Our most serious crimes are done with illegal weapons. In NJ the "assault" term was so precisely defined you could still buy a rifle just as deadly but didn't have a flash muzzle, pistol grip or 15+ round clip. The law was pointless and now defunct. Domestic crimes will be done with whatever weapon available during a fit of emotion or drunkenness. That's my 2 cents. The facts may be a little off (I'm not an expert) but that's the gist of it.

AS for Obama, I voted for him. It took the prior administration 8 years to bury us...let's give the man some time and co-operation to dig us out. We need action NOW.

[MadMax]

How about to solve murder cases?? I just watched some report on gun shows. Some dude bought like 7 rifles, 2 shotguns, and 2 pistols at a gun show without ever showing ID. That's just fucking crazy.. If you think that's OK, then there is no point to rational discussion. Someone out on parole for murder can go buy a small arsenal of weapons and ammo, no questions asked, no paperwork.

Now my question - honestly what business is it of the government what drugs I smoke?

Proving eligibility to purchase weapons and registering them are two different things. Every state is required to do background checks on individuals purchasing weapons, even private sellers are required to know if the purchaser can legally own the weapon before selling it to them. In Texas, having a CHL is all the proof you need; but even a Texas driver's license is good enough but it must be called in and a background check completed before the sale occurs.

And don't believe everything you see on TV; but yes, illegal gun sales do occur. But you do realize that there are already laws on the books that require eligibility to purchase weapons and...big surprise here...criminals are not abiding by them! Do you really think more laws will solve that? No. The only people that are affected by stricter gun laws are law-abiding citizens, which aren't the problem in the first place!

And, as I stated in my previous post, gun registration has very rarely ever been used to solve a murder. Think about it, just because some paper shows I own a .45 or a 9mm it cannot be evidence of a connection to a crime.

Cheers! M2

[GeneW]

I've been told that Bob's banishment has been lifted. When he comes back is his own choice.


Guns - a fun topic, and for some reason VERY contentious over here.

My own view is that all guns should be registered. Just like cars. Do you bitch about having to register a car?
My 2-cents.

Two views of government.

Theory A- People surrender some of their own power to the government in order to make things work for the common good. In this sense the US is a form of limited Anarchy. I think that this limited Anarchy has benefited us in some cases because freedom to chose is freedom to produce.

Theory B- People are subjects of the government, that laws are passed for the common good or for the benefit of the State. In such a State there is a Monopoly of Lethal Force by the State. Only they can harm others except in self defense. In Britain even the concept of Self Defense is under attack. People have been jailed for "fighting back" beyond a proportional defense. This is insane but that's a Labour Government for you.

Theory A is the idea upon which the United States was founded. Contained in the Declaration of Independence.

To a believer in Theory A it makes no sense to "register" one's source of personal power with the State. The State has no damn business taking it away from you, except as punishment for a crime and as such has no business knowing what you have until you break the law.

Some of us think that the original intent of the 2nd Amendment to the US Bill of Rights was akin to the old tradition of Archers in England, that to be Well Regulated (accurate shooters) one must practice routinely. Which you cannot do when the State keeps all of the weapons under its control. To me the 2nd Amendment does not explicitly outlaw gun registration, only forbids prohibition of owning a gun.


Theory B is the foundation of a typical modern State, such a Great Britain, which changed from the Divine Right of Kings to a Constitutional Monarchy, and finally today to a Parliamentary Democracy with a Royal Figurehead.

To someone who believes in Theory B owning a firearm is a privilege which can be taken away at any old time. Registering a firearm facilitates confiscation of a gun, either from an individual because of some deviancy on their part or because the State has decided to ban some or all firearms.

The grotesque over reaction in Britain after the Dunblane Massacre is a good example of where registration can lead. Handguns in Britain were kept in "shooting clubs" and were not permitted to be carried on the streets. The Dunblane shooter broke the law. Oh well...


My practical concern with registration is that registration lists have been abused by gun control groups, who have published them. If a woman has a right to privacy under Roe v Wade than certainly I have a right to privacy from the public regarding what I own. I am concerned that Insurance companies may be sued or bullied into levying insurance increases upon those who have registered firearms. There has also been use of gun registration lists to confiscate guns.


To a person who believes in Theory B, owning a firearm is a gesture of political defiance. When you own a gun under a State which claims monopoly of Lethal Force you are challenging its authority. Under such a government owning a gun is a political act.

Owning a car does not challenge the State since the State does not claim a monopoly on transportation. Owning a car is not a political act.

Registering Cars is a mechanism for generating revenue, from the sales of license plates and annual registration fees. Each car is already uniquely identified by its VIN. Aside making it convenient for Police a license plate has no practical purpose except revenue generation. Even auto theft is not an issue - the victim would hand over their VIN number to police.

Many US states have gun registration and have not seen decreases in crime. In several instances gun confiscation followed registration (California and NYC assault weapon bans, and in some cases New Orleans gun confiscation following Katrina).

I see no compelling reason for a national gun registry. I see every reason to be suspicious of the idea of registering guns, especially given the hostility of some interest groups in the US towards ownership of firearms. At this point in history it would be practically impossible to confiscate firearms in the US. A national gun registry would simplify the process of confiscation, with no gain in terms of public safety.

Gene

[GeneW]

Did we take Ronald Ray-gun seriuosly when he ran for President of the Whole Shebang? Kinda.... :smile:

Yes. Some of us literally bled for Ronald Reagan. Later, once we learned what a screw up he was about certain things, we regretted supporting him.

I do not understand the Cult of Reagan. Most of the people that I know who idolized Reagan did not understand how Reagan betrayed his own principals, especially about the War on Drugs, and later how he supported the Brady Campaign. They compare W Bush to Reagan, but I remember Reagan, and he would have dismissed Bush's spending and pointless wars as foolishness.

That being said, was Reagan a stupid man? No. He was very idealistic. I think to a large extent the collapse of the USSR and the Eastern Bloc was facilitated (but not caused) by Reagan's pressure on the USSR. Many people in Eastern Europe I think owe Reagan a debt of gratitude.

Gene

[tomato]

Still sitting on my hands!!

[GeneW]

Looks like the EPA has ruled in agreement with the Courts that Carbon Dioxide and other "greenhouse gases" are a menace to public well being. They are doing this under the aegis of the Clean Air Act.

I was not aware that the Clean Air act allowed for computer models and shoddy experimental data when considering a change in law.

It's easy to see how NOx can lead to photochemical smog, how SOx can damage plants or how soot can damage property. These are easily demonstrable.

Human caused global warming, at least to me and many others, is a whole other issue. The science is simply not there at this time in history. Science is not consensus, science is data and interpretation of data, and not computer models, anecdotes and so on. Certainly science follows the rules of logic, among them being rejecting arguments that rely upon authority.

It's ironic to me that the US FDA insists upon clinical studies to show the efficacy of a drug but the EPA goes along with computer models and anecdotes.

I'm sure that owners of the Chicago Climate Exchange are warming up for the big shafting that they're going to deliver to the American people. I am also confident that manufacturers in China and India are getting ready to take more good paying manufacturing jobs as American businesses are pushed offshore.

As far as "Green Jobs". Where, besides paperwork and enforcement? If consumers demanded green energy we'd have it. They don't, because they are not convinced that it's worthwhile.

Gene

[SailDesign]

It's ironic to me that the US FDA insists upon clinical studies to show the efficacy of a drug but the EPA goes along with computer models and anecdotes.

No contention here, Gene, but the EPA do not have the luxury of "full-scale" tests here. The world itself IS the full-scale test. What do you want to do if it fails?
The penalty for failure in this case is quite literally the end of life as we know it. Say what you want about methodology, but this is the case. The FDA can "afford" to have tests run ,and people die or be seriously injured in such tests. The "Patient" in the EPA's case is all of us, and I'm not willing to take the risk that their projections are wrong. Even if their projections are RIGHT we are not in a good place right now.
Science is about more than "cold, hard facts", science is the knowledge to make informed projections. I do it every day with knowng roughly how my boats perform. Computer predictions. Not perfect, but when it's all you have, it's better than nothing.

[PETERPOOP]

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

[NJBob]

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

I can barely understand and deal with legitimate governmental organizations. I often feel that secret societies/big money and power are pulling the strings of our puppet government but it's pointless for a small potato like me to concern myself about it other than interesting coversation. I think I'd rather not know. Real information or connection to some of these people can get you dead. :cool: I'm fine with my life the way it is except that taxes in NJ really suck. :tongue:

[GeneW]

Science is about more than "cold, hard facts", science is the knowledge to make informed projections. I do it every day with knowng roughly how my boats perform. Computer predictions. Not perfect, but when it's all you have, it's better than nothing.

Sometimes a faulty projection or model is worse than nothing. You have the illusion of knowing what is going on but in reality you're getting more and more lost.

I'm in engineering now. I work with power conversion systems. We also use models. We also subject our work to tests, as you do with your boats.

I have seen engineers make mistakes too.

I used to work in R&D, on a problem that has plagued one industry since the 1950s. They're still, at this time, hashing out the details.

Science isn't knowledge. Science is a process of acquiring knowledge. One must be willing to jettison a model at any time when it does not fit the facts. As my former Boss in R&D used to say, "Let the data speak". Projections to not yield data, they yield forecasts. Woe to the person who confuses experimental data with forecasts.

Gene

[GeneW]

The world itself IS the full-scale test. What do you want to do if it fails? The penalty for failure in this case is quite literally the end of life as we know it.

If the US embraces some of the extreme carbon limits we will see the end of life as we know it, for certain rather than maybe.

The "Patient" in the EPA's case is all of us, and I'm not willing to take the risk that their projections are wrong. Even if their projections are RIGHT we are not in a good place right now.

If we were really "addicted to oil" the US government would be working on effective substitutes for petroleum. They wouldn't be wasting time and energy on satrapies like corn based ethanol, saw grass based ethanol, and other pointless measures.

Instead they be working on coal gasification, increased use of nuclear energy and pouring much more money into nuclear fusion R&D. They wouldn't be binding us to peasant energy.

I watch what these characters do - what they're about is buying votes with subsidies and levying novel taxes onto the populace. That's not going to help anyone but themselves.

Gene

[Phaeton]

The conspiracy center in my brain tells me, that all the new hybrids the government will force GM to produce will sell a lot better when traditional combustion engine cars are illegal lol.

[coheed]

I think why the rest of the world doesnt particularly like the US is that we're the only country in the world that goes around saying how great we are and how important we are.


Resigning from thread. Thats all I have to say.

[GeneW]

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

Secret societies have always been with us. Some are open to anyone with the right beliefs, such as the Masons.

Others are only open to people with the right backgrounds, such as Skull and Crossbones, etc. It is odd that in many cases both candidates in US Presidential Elections tend to come from the Ivy League. This is not a coincidence, as the Ivy League tends to impress upon their alumni a certain world view, a certain sense of entitlement. It's not iron clad, but it's strong.

The one which probably bears watching is the CFR, Council of Foreign Relations. They're a think tank and interest group founded by Cecil Rhodes to harmonize policy of "anglo saxon nations", to quote Rhodes.

The CFR has huge influence over the US Executive branch and have had such influence since the late 1910s. They're not sinister, not exactly, but they tend to over synchronize things a bit too much. Their first big break was under the Wilson Administration, which helped to influence US entry into World War I on the British side. Wilson was elected on a neutrality platform but broke his word once his advisors counseled him that the US didn't come that New York Banking interests would lose their loans to the Brits for war materiel.

If you dig deep enough you'll usually find a few large families in the US who have huge influence. They don't control this country, but they tend to shape debate and policy. They kind of set walls around where we are likely to go.

The biggies are the Rockefeller Family. They have founded Universities and Foundations and have created a vast intellectual bodyguard. The later big families, like the Kennedys and others, have similar Trusts that protect their wealth from income taxes.

There are of course many other groups in the US. When things seem like a conspiracy it's more a convergence of interests.

If the American people understood it, and I don't completely understand it at all, they would probably not sweat it much. Americans tend to be laid back unless they're being pushed hard.

Gene

[GeneW]

I think why the rest of the world doesnt particularly like the US is that we're the only country in the world that goes around saying how great we are and how important we are.


Resigning from thread. Thats all I have to say.

I think there is some truth to that idea. I run into people, visitors, who tend to be defensive when I discuss the US system. Of course I also understand that the US doesn't know everything, isn't omnipotent, and that we're tired of being an empire. At least I'm tired of it.

The flip side, of course, is the arrogant attitude that the US does not have its own culture and that by implication we're rubes and clods.

The US borrows from anyone who comes here. While we're mostly Anglo Saxon we tend to borrow a lot from other places too.

Gene

[jambo101]

New piece of the sky falling, Obama is a Satanist,heres the proof
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-TMKUea87E&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eboingboing%2Enet%2F&feature=player_embedded

Some people are really going to extremes to discredit Obama,wonder how many hours the guy spent to come up with this stretch of the imagination:bonk: just to drive the republicans into more of a stupor i hope in 4yrs Obama gets re elected:biggrin:

[NJBob]

I think why the rest of the world doesn't particularly like the US is that we're the only country in the world that goes around saying how great we are and how important we are.

I saw a piece on Iran (as a good example) a few weeks ago by "Rick Steves" a video travel agent if you will. As he ventured thru the country he revealed with conversations with the locals that they like us. They are objective enough to to say that it's the governments that are in conflict. The people care about other people. It's my opinion that most countries are like this. The media (what a surprise) tends to exagerate or overstate what the U.S. is all about. I have a nephew in Iraq who states that despite any misunderstanding or lack of info from the media, the real people appreciate what we did and the help we are giving them rebuilding. You don't hear this on the news but one of the biggest most dangerous cities has been opening up there shops and streets and life is getting back to normal. It's a shame that the extremists are getting so much attention and the good stuff is not getting reported at all.

[Bob_VT]

My take on the world's situation ........... Our biggest enemy ....... the most evil....... the one I fear most ................. the one responsible for brainwashing and causing panic ............. the MEDIA.

The media crucified Richard Jewell, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.

[NJBob]

I don't agree that the media elected Obama. I think he was the better qualified of the two. He's young, smart, ambitious, educated. Democrats seemed the likely choice after seeing what the previous 8 year admin. did (and didn't do)and did not vote for him simply because he's a Democrat. But that's just me. The two things that bother me the most about that election is that some people voted for Obama solely because of his color.....and worse....did not.

[jambo101]

, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.
Bush destroyed his own credibility and the voters showed their displeasure and voted the bum out, too bad the republicans cant except the fact that the people have spoken and Obama and the Dems are the way its going to be for at least the next 4yrs,and as for the media electing Obama you obviously havent been listening to media moguls Limbaugh,Beck, Hannity, Coulter, and many others who use the media to carve up Obama everyday. I used to be a fence sitter as to whether i was Liberal or conservative in my political views but in the aftermath of this recent election i've jumped squarely to the liberal side as the conservatives seem to be a bunch of spoiled brats ,poor losers and nut jobs who seem to continually whine about the idea that their guns might be at risk of registration or the government might institute more social programs instead of pulling together to overcome the temporary fiscal challenges that now face the nation .

[MadMax]

I think why the rest of the world doesnt particularly like the US is that we're the only country in the world that goes around saying how great we are and how important we are.

Resigning from thread. Thats all I have to say.

Well, since you are resigning from this thread, I wasn't going to reply; but it still warrants one.

For one, how much international travel have you done? Because if you have, you'd realize that most of the anti-US sentiment is directed towards our government, not the people or culture of the US.

And being the last true world power, some of that criticism is to be expected. I don't agree with everything our government does, but I also realize that the US is one of the greatest countries on the planet and a lot of that hatred stems from jealousy. Take Iran for example, they like to bitch and moan about the US, but given the opportunity they would very much want to control how the world is. Same goes with the Chinese, Russians, and basically every other major country in the world. The biggest difference is the US has the power to do so, whereas they do not, so they try other avenues of influence (terrorism, economics, etc) to try and get leverage for their desires...

Cheers! M2

[eTiMaGo]

yep, since WWII, the US has truly become the dominant country of the world. I am grateful for their involvement, or I'd be speaking German now :biggrin:

But, I guess this success sorta went to the collective heads of the ruling elite, and over time the country became a kind of bully You guys ought to read a book called Rogue State by William Blum. it's pretty thick and slow reading, but it chronicles a lot of the underhanded influence the US has had in other countries.

So yes, it is this influence, as well as the relative prosperity of the american people, that can really infuriate those of other countries, sadly with disastrous results as we saw on 9/11 :frown:

[GeneW]

My take on the world's situation ........... Our biggest enemy ....... the most evil....... the one I fear most ................. the one responsible for brainwashing and causing panic ............. the MEDIA.

The media crucified Richard Jewell, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.

The Media gave Obama a great deal of help, true. They covered up his gaffes while emphasizing the gaffes of Sarah Palin. How many Obama supporters heard that clip of Obama talking of the 57 states that he's visited? I bet if Palin had said that we'd have heard it on the hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

How about the day that Obama hemmed and hawed about "breathilyzers" and other non-sense because he didn't have a teleprompter? Didn't see that on TV, did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxxGUeZtno

Fortunately the Media is destroying itself. Newspapers are on the edge of going out of business. It's too easy to get news from the Internet. You don't get the grotesque bias from the Internet if you shop around.

TV news shows are following in suit.

Our biggest problem is not the Media. It's a public which refuses to think things through to their logical conclusions. We get the government that we deserve because we refuse to keep good books ourselves.

A populace that kept track of things would realize that you cannot spend money you don't have endlessly. They'd realize how often the Government has failed to deliver on its promises.

They may not become Conservatives either, they might demand more prudent spending and more realistic taxation than Marxist "From each according to their ability" income taxes. They might want to question why beer is legal but dope is illegal and that the US has two million people in jail.

H.L. Mencken said a long time ago that the idea of politics is to give people what they want, good and hard.

We're getting it now. Between Cap 'n Trade, grotesque deficit spending and hyper regulation this is going to be a hard country to make a good living.

Yes, we'll see if people finally wake up in this country. Got a feeling it's starting to happen, but the nub is what conclusions that they'll draw.

Gene

[TLyttle]

Years ago, someone (obviously not an American) said that the USA is heading for Third-World status within 2 decades; rash, but when one considers what the US spends its tax money on ("defense", for a start) and the state of the poor or sick, this is not a difficult conclusion to come to.

My buddy's favourite quote is, "America is the only nation that went from infancy to senility without going through maturity." I only hope that Obama is able to supply a period of that missing component...

[GeneW]

Years ago, someone (obviously not an American) said that the USA is heading for Third-World status within 2 decades; rash, but when one considers what the US spends its tax money on ("defense", for a start) and the state of the poor or sick, this is not a difficult conclusion to come to.

My buddy's favourite quote is, "America is the only nation that went from infancy to senility without going through maturity." I only hope that Obama is able to supply a period of that missing component...

Don't hold your breath, my man... because the people in Congress ain't mature, not at all.

Gene

[jinxor]

I guess it is just the recession that is digging into ppl's mind... Usually, these same discussions happen every time a new person is elected. There were and will be complaints, rants, etc... The point is that all these politicians are elected by us... Isnt that the US where ppl say the government is ... "For the ppl, of the ppl, by the ppl"???

[1NZYaris1]

I guess it is just the recession that is digging into ppl's mind... Usually, these same discussions happen every time a new person is elected. There were and will be complaints, rants, etc... The point is that all these politicians are elected by us... Isnt that the US where ppl say the government is ... "For the ppl, of the ppl, by the ppl"???

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[jambo101]

Yes, we'll see if people finally wake up in this country. Got a feeling it's starting to happen, but the nub is what conclusions that they'll draw.

Gene I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

[SailDesign]

I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

Thank you. +1, with a few zeros after it.

[MadMax]

I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

Errrr, I know you aren't an American, so maybe you don't realize this but our president doesn't have absolute powers therefore much of the blame also lies with the Congress and Senate. And guess which political party help the majority in those two bodies during the last half of the Bush administration?

Also, if you did your research you will find our current housing problems were started by the previous administration (Clinton). I don't necessarily believe it was intentionally meant to collapse the market, in fact it was started with all the best intentions but unfortunately was left running unchecked therefore nosedived driving the country into its current economic woes.

Additionally, don't be so quick to praise Obama, he shouldn't be given a free ride simply because he followed Bush. Some of his proposals are not well thought out, and they need the checks-and-balances of a little criticism. Here is a good example from the Wall Street Journal...


The 2% Illusion
Take everything they earn, and it still won't be enough.

President Obama has laid out the most ambitious and expensive domestic agenda since LBJ, and now all he has to do is figure out how to pay for it. On Tuesday, he left the impression that we need merely end "tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans," and he promised that households earning less than $250,000 won't see their taxes increased by "one single dime."

APThis is going to be some trick. Even the most basic inspection of the IRS income tax statistics shows that raising taxes on the salaries, dividends and capital gains of those making more than $250,000 can't possibly raise enough revenue to fund Mr. Obama's new spending ambitions.

Consider the IRS data for 2006, the most recent year that such tax data are available and a good year for the economy and "the wealthiest 2%." Roughly 3.8 million filers had adjusted gross incomes above $200,000 in 2006. (That's about 7% of all returns; the data aren't broken down at the $250,000 point.) These people paid about $522 billion in income taxes, or roughly 62% of all federal individual income receipts. The richest 1% -- about 1.65 million filers making above $388,806 -- paid some $408 billion, or 39.9% of all income tax revenues, while earning about 22% of all reported U.S. income.

Note that federal income taxes are already "progressive" with a 35% top marginal rate, and that Mr. Obama is (so far) proposing to raise it only to 39.6%, plus another two percentage points in hidden deduction phase-outs. He'd also raise capital gains and dividend rates, but those both yield far less revenue than the income tax. These combined increases won't come close to raising the hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue that Mr. Obama is going to need.

But let's not stop at a 42% top rate; as a thought experiment, let's go all the way. A tax policy that confiscated 100% of the taxable income of everyone in America earning over $500,000 in 2006 would only have given Congress an extra $1.3 trillion in revenue. That's less than half the 2006 federal budget of $2.7 trillion and looks tiny compared to the more than $4 trillion Congress will spend in fiscal 2010. Even taking every taxable "dime" of everyone earning more than $75,000 in 2006 would have barely yielded enough to cover that $4 trillion.

Fast forward to this year (and 2010) when the Wall Street meltdown and recession are going to mean far few taxpayers earning more than $500,000. Profits are plunging, businesses are cutting or eliminating dividends, hedge funds are rolling up, and, most of all, capital nationwide is on strike. Raising taxes now will thus yield far less revenue than it would have in 2006.

Mr. Obama is of course counting on an economic recovery. And he's also assuming along with the new liberal economic consensus that taxes don't matter to growth or job creation. The truth, though, is that they do. Small- and medium-sized businesses are the nation's primary employers, and lower individual tax rates have induced thousands of them to shift from filing under the corporate tax system to the individual system, often as limited liability companies or Subchapter S corporations. The Tax Foundation calculates that merely restoring the higher, Clinton-era tax rates on the top two brackets would hit 45% to 55% of small-business income, depending on how inclusively "small business" is defined. These owners will find a way to declare less taxable income.

The bottom line is that Mr. Obama is selling the country on a 2% illusion. Unwinding the U.S. commitment in Iraq and allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire can't possibly pay for his agenda. Taxes on the not-so-rich will need to rise as well.

On that point, by the way, it's unclear why Mr. Obama thinks his climate-change scheme won't hit all Americans with higher taxes. Selling the right to emit greenhouse gases amounts to a steep new tax on most types of energy and, therefore, on all Americans who use energy. There's a reason that Charlie Rangel's Ways and Means panel, which writes tax law, is holding hearings this week on cap-and-trade regulation.

Mr. Obama is very good at portraying his agenda as nothing more than center-left pragmatism. But pragmatists don't ignore the data. And the reality is that the only way to pay for Mr. Obama's ambitions is to reach ever deeper into the pockets of the American middle class.

He's a politician just like every other, and blind faith only leads to disaster...

Cheers! M2

[Phaeton]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

[jambo101]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.
A good start would be for people and businesses and government to live within their means.

[eTiMaGo]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

naaah it's so much easier and fun to bitch and complain :laugh:

[enobmort42]

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

[SailDesign]

but you can't do that when the government is telling you to "spend! spend! stimulate the economy!" i think the best start would be to cut government spending. stop digging us deeper and stop weakening our dollar, that way we CAN start to stimulate the economy, ideally within our means.

You're probably on the right track, but it's not easy to say that with no job. Unless money starts flowing again, my kind of work is dried up. I heard today that another major luxury-end-of-the-scale boat company islaying off people. I'm trying to get into anything else at the moment.
[/poor-little-me] :smile:

[MadMax]

Exactly, like many things in life it is moderation and balance. We didn't get into an economic mess from spending money, we got into it for spending too much money (usually more than we have!). It is important to spend, as that equates to income for others, and even credit is not a bad thing if properly managed; but when people are getting mortgages that cost more per month than they make, we are in trouble!

I don't think throwing money at the problem is the solution. For one, that money has to come from somewhere. I also don't think the usual 'tax the rich and give to the poor' will work either, as it removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to take it away from you. It also removes any incentive to work hard and earn a good living if someone is just going to give it to you anyway!

We need to create more jobs in this country, and more industry, and we need to better educate ourselves and our children. The US has always fallen short when it comes to education, creating those skills that help people get ahead.

And we need to quit thinking that we have an obligation to carry those who won't help themselves. I am all for aiding the elderly or incapacitated, but there is no reason an abled-body person cannot work or be trained to do something productive in society. The free handouts are not going to help in the long run, what would work better is to create the opportunities for education, training and jobs that will benefit the people in the long run.

Go study Roosevelt's New Deal if you want a good example of how it should be implemented. It was far from perfect, but it was a better plan than we have seen out of the current administration. Heck, sometimes I am not even sure if there even is a plan these days...

Cheers! M2

[TLyttle]

Apparently, the US is founded on Christian beliefs, one of which is to help the poor, help your fellow man, hence the need for "handouts". I have no problem with able-bodied people getting and keeping jobs, if they are indeed able. With the drug culture, witless lifestyles on tv, and government corruption so prevalent, some people (not as many as one would expect) see Easy Street or another planet as a better alternative to sweat.

Solve that (the Swedes seem to have a handle on it, and their tax rate on the highest incomes is over 90%), and most of the social problems would be solved. Education is the key, pure and simple, and the US education system stinks for most of its citizens...

[supmet]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

I know every likes to blame greed. Greed from the consumers, greed from the banks, greed all around. I tend to agree with all of it, except greed from the banks.

Now yes, in the end, it was greed that caused the banks to give out ridiculous loans - but not greed thinking they were gonna make money off of the loans. They knew the bailout money was coming for years. I REFUSE to believe, people with degrees in economics and banking, actually thought there was ANY chance someone making 30k a year would ever pay back a 500k loan.

Ya the government "encouraged" looser loans, but nobody was holding guns to bankers' heads telling them they HAD to give out crappy loans. They knew what they were doing, and they knew it would inevitably collapse their company. But hey, who cares right? You can get billions in bailouts, and give millions to all your execs. Everyone important got taken care of, and now - America is in a state of emergency, its favorite place to be.

When everything is perfect in America, the people will not vote to change anything. When everything is going to shit, the people will give up their right to vote, and allow the government to pass ANYTHING(see patriot act).. This has pretty much been the standard operating procedure for the united states for quite some time. To get things done, there needs to be an emergency that is either completely made up, blown way out of proportion, or we knowingly let people attack us - (gulf of tonkin, pearl harbor, 9/11)

The banking collapse is just the latest emergency orchestrated to make you vote for some stupid shit, and act without thinking.

How to get out of it? Let the chaff burn and move on with your life. I still have all the essentials for life, and nobody is trying to kill me. The economy will bounce back on its own, thinking you can artificially control the economy is perhaps the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

If you want immediate fixes -

1)legalize drugs - billions and billions made on taxes, trillions saved in the DEA, all gangs in america will become ABSOLUTELY POWERLESS over night. Marijuana farmers and drug manufacturers will bring new jobs too :D

2)drop homeland security - again, trillions saved. Homeland security has been responsible for the detainment of exactly ONE so called "terrorist" group, that was just a bunch of rednecks that wanted to blow some shit up. Not to mention they impede on my rights on a daily basis.

3)raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol - two of the least affected industries by the failing economy. alcohol sales have actually been UP in some months.

4)raise taxes on any making over 500k a year - Ya

5) fire everyone at the IRS and start over new. The fact that people making 40 grand a year get audited is fucking insane. Go spend some time getting the trillions of dollars owed by big businesses and leave people trying to survive alone.

6)take back all the bailout money, all the money you're saving on not having homeland security and the DEA, and give it back to the people, who need it.

[SeaYa]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

Vote straight ticket Libertarian on every ballot for every election (township, county, state, & national). Personal liberties FTW!

[jambo101]

6)take back all the bailout money,
The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

[supmet]

The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

See what I mean?

"normally I'm against it, but in THIS case............"

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.


The shit was gonna hit the fan regardless of the banking/housing fiasco. Labor prices in china going up = all the business that were just barely getting by repackaging chinese goods are fucked. Unskilled labor(and even some skilled labor) being replaced by robots and machines = huge unemployment rates. Giving good money to bad people isn't gonna make any situation better.

Stop making rash knee-jerk reactions. Let the people who are bad with money run their course to bankruptcy. Let the smart people who didn't lose money take over. The government and the people need to stop needless spending. Some hard work and buckling down is the only thing that will get us out... Throwing money away is only going to make it worse.

[jambo101]

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

[supmet]

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.

The most truthful news show on TV is the daily show. Really if you don't understand how horribly filtered, scripted, paid off fox, cnn, and nbc are, you need to watch the daily show. I don't align all my views with Jon Stewart, but his show has done more for journalism than anything in my lifetime. When they play 17 news clips in a row from 5 different stations, and the reporters are all spitting the same lines word for word, I don't need much more proof that the major news corporations are all reading from the same script they were handed. When Stewart made Cramer look like the worlds biggest ass, and called him out on being a sell out, Cramer could say nothing. Yet he still has a show on CNBC. Yes the guy that told you to buy AIG, told you to buy bear sterns, and there is video evidence of him recommending short selling - he's giving you economic advice still.

Aside from the daily show, the internet is my primary news source

[jambo101]

I watched Jon Stewart show on a recent trip to Fla.Very good show,unfortunately he doesnt get televised up here in Canada.we get CBC newsworld Cnn,cbs,Nbc and Abc and we get nothing like Beck ,Limbaugh,Hannity,Coulter,OReilly and the like.

[enobmort42]

I watched Jon Stewart show on a recent trip to Fla.Very good show,unfortunately he doesnt get televised up here in Canada.we get CBC newsworld Cnn,cbs,Nbc and Abc and we get nothing like Beck ,Limbaugh,Hannity,Coulter,OReilly and the like.

that's unfortunate. i've recently been turned on to the FreeTalkLive podcasts. google it and check out an episode. they're all about giving a less biased/more objective look at the issues.

when i'm not listening to that, i've got my radio set to Real Radio 104.1 (http://realradio.fm/). i've never been a fan of talk radio until i heard this station =P

[enobmort42]

and as much as i hate to say it, fox news has a good segment on with judge napolitano.

[TLyttle]

Wow, it's just like we really need the ranting of Limbaugh etc. here in Canada! Just like we need 1" holes drilled in our heads. Any clips or conversations I have heard from these guys (including the Daily Show) are so twisted that only a cucumber would believe any of it.

If you want quality news, and I see "quality" as being news from as many OUTSIDE sources as possible, go to the radio. There is lots of info from Australia, Germany, even Iran, in English; listen to enough of it, and get some true perspective of what is really going on on this planet, including outside opinions regarding the US and its treatment of both its own citizens and other countries. The only reason that anyone knows about the "Contra Affair" (and other events of that nature) is because it went so wrong that the rest of the world wouldn't ignore it.

Distillation of fact eventually becomes the truth, and clowns like Limbaugh are shown to have all the news sense of a pro wrestler.

[Phaeton]

So if all the news media are feeding us lies and BS where do you get your reliable sources of news?.


www.fark.com I get allll my news from there.

[jambo101]

www.fark.com I get allll my news from there. Interesting news site,definitely gets away from most of the political crap.

[TLyttle]

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?

[jambo101]

I see that the Homeland Security head is still blaming Canada for allowing the 9-11 terrorists into the US... Man, there's a rumour that just won't die, eh?
Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

[SailDesign]

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

Since when did logic play a part in blaming others for your misfortunes? :smile:

[TLyttle]

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

[GeneW]

Aint that a fact...

My problem with it is that the silly broad is in a VERY high, VERY powerful position. Stupid me, I think that is wrong.

FEMA and the DHS are not where you put "key" people. They've been dumping grounds for second string players, figureheads who get a sinecure and leave the mental heavy lifting to their staff.

A good example of how FEMA operates was the recent Katrina Disaster, where Bush was successfully bullied into crapping millions of dollars onto New Orleans rather than be branded a "racist". I'm sure that his buddies down south made a killing on contracts as well.

The first director of DHS was Pennsylvania's own Tom Ridge. We used to call him "Windbreak Ridge" after the movie featuring Clint Eastwood. The guy was a water carrier for the blue stocking crowd who have kept the Republican Rubes in line for ages, so as his reward he got a Governor's position. I think he had designs on the big job but the Bush people got in line first. So as a consolation prize Bush gave him the job of running the latest US satrapy, which is only really known by their formal subdivision the TSA, which to most Americans are those peeping Toms and Gropers who work in Airports sniffing out terrorists and well endowed blonde women.

You want to hear something really scary? Rumor control has it that Bush wanted some advice on how to set up the DHS. So he hired a man from Russia named Yevgeny Primakov to help him design it. Primakov's job under Yeltsin was running the Sucessor to the KGB's First Directorate. Swell, so our US President was hiring KGB people to help design the DHS.

Gene

[PaidTimeOff]

I find it hilarious that so many people made such a big giant fuss about being able to voice their political opinions 24/7/365 demanding to have this thread created and now it's just sitting here on the third page... Well not anymore, I guess. Bump!

Guess it's only fun when it's taboo eh?

[GeneW]

I live in PA.

Among my "right wing" friends our man from Philly was known as "Senator Sphincter". Arlen has tended to be a bit of a weathervane and I think most of the time he votes per his pocketbook than his conscience.

Arlen nearly lost the last primary to Pat Toomey, who was a pretty righteous right wing sort of guy. Recently Pat has been on the campaign trail, slowly building up support. I do NOT think that Pat would win the 2010 primary against Arlen Spector, if only because the Democrats could trundle out another Bob Casey and win against Pat.


What isn't being discussed is that Joe Biden was "on the phone" with Arlen for a week or so, maybe longer, before Arlen made his big switch.

My take on it is that Arlen was made a deal - he gets some candy to hand out to the kiddies in the metro Philly area. He also gets some higher positions in Committees, perhaps even a chairmanship or two.

In exchange he jumps ship.

Gene

[GeneW]

You guys ought to move that thread to the off topic discussion, I think.

Let's do so, shall we?

Health care: do you really like the idea that millions of Americans everywhere can't afford health insurance right now? Some can, but insurances will turn them down based on pre-existing conditions. What are they supposed to do? Here in California, a simple doctor's visit (consult, 15 minutes at MOST) is $184. That's not some fancy visit in some fancy place, believe me.

Welcome to California, land of high taxes, irrational business regulations, high local and state income taxes, and lots of "Cost Shifting" from Illegals (who work cheap labor for farmers, nannies and garderners for the wealthy, etc.).

California has too much government now... since when is pouring gasoline on a fire the answer to putting out a fire?

Is it fair that people who have worked all their lives and saved every penny should go bankrupt when someone gets, let's say cancer? IDK, something sure needs to be done. I don't trust the government anymore than the next guy, but a little bit of regulation to make sure prices don't skyrocket might be a good idea.

Price caps cause shortages... guess you were too young to remember the Gasoline Lines of the 1970s? I remember 'em real well, caused by price caps on gasoline prices. Once the prices were allowed to rise the gas lines vanished.

The same thing happens today in Georgia with "anti-gouging" laws. So instead of paying in cash you pay in time either waiting in line for gasoline or searching out stations which are still selling it. No free lunches.


Look at the price of prescription drugs for instance, I mean that is completely out of hand. Many of these drugs (which Seniors require) are long out of R&D, and shouldn't be priced that high. The tax payer is footing the bill :iono:

When Vioxx was announced to "cause" angina and heart attack Merch had to 'set aside" $6,800,000,000 for settlements. The FDA trials for Vioxx spanned 18 months, some people were using Vioxx for far longer.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/07/17/business/main4269301.shtml

So, patients are using Vioxx longer than the FDA trials but it's Merck's fault? Guess so... and you wonder why drugs are so expensive!!

Here's a story of the sudden disappearance of vaccine makers in the US - courtesy of President Clinton.

The panel of doctors and economists issuing a report on vaccines last week identified as a fundamental cause of the problem the fact that the government purchases 55 percent of the childhood vaccine market at forced discount prices. The result has been "declining financial incentives to develop and produce vaccines."

The root of this government role goes back to August 1993, when Congress passed Clinton's Vaccines for Children program. The plan, promoted by the Children's Defense Fund, was to use federal power to ensure universal immunization. So the government agreed to purchase a third of the national vaccine supply (the President and Mrs. Clinton had pushed for 100 percent) at a forced discount of half price, then distribute it to doctors to deliver to the poor and the un- and under-insured. As a result:

* Where 30 years ago, 25 companies produced vaccines for the U.S. market., today only five remain, and there is only one producer for a number of critical shots.
* Recent years have brought shortages of numerous vaccines, including those for whooping cough, diphtheria and chicken pox.

The Institute panel in effect said that one of Senator Clinton's pet projects is a bust. As Congress considers Medicare legislation that could do similar harm to prescription drug makers, the vaccine tale is a timely alarm, says the Journal.

http://www.ncpa.org/sub/dpd/index.php?Article_ID=4705


Maybe I should just shut up because the health care situation just puts me in a bad mood. Anyway, think about it, even if you voted Republican and hate the very thought of any government involvment.

I don't know the answers either, I just know what Medicare and Medicaid are not doing - controlling the costs of medical procedures. Why is "more of the same' going to fix the problem?

A Republican President and GOP controlled Congress passed the "Senior Drug Prescription Benefit" program by the way. The GOP are simply "me too" Democrats.

Health care as it is now in the US is no care at all for the majority of people. It is a disgrace, if you ask me.

The real disgrace to me is that the American people are allowing Congress to borrow money to keep us "in the style to which we are accustomed" from China and Japan, letting us live far beyond our means, while at the same time destroying our ability to manufacture through "Cap 'n Trade" and a whole panoply of control freak horseshit.

Meanwhile they kiss the butts of companies like Toyota, begging them to set up shop in the US.

We're capable of doing Toyota grade work in the US, if we weren't held back by our own sense of entitlement, "class struggle" and insane laws.

This comes to bear on "Health Care" - a nation which pisses away the enthusiasm of the productive classes, and stifles achievement because it's "unfair" must pay the price in terms of poverty.

Japan is half the size of the US in population and has the land mass of California. It's not just MITI and Toyota's special status with their government that makes them to dominant car maker today. It's not Japanese "health care", as Toyota profitably makes cars in the US too.

Toyota listens to the customer. If our Government would keep its meddlesome and vote buying hands out of our businesses we too could compete. There would be excess wealth for more medical services, not free health care and not "equal access" but enough for most folks to buy it affordably.

Gene

[TLyttle]

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally. Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line? Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.

[GeneW]

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

The HMO's "right to gouge" was given to it by the US Congress in 1972, by Ted Kennedy. Pl 93-222 1972.

Yes, the same Ted Kennedy who today is "giving America Health Care", a kind of care that he won't be getting as a Senator, gave America the HMO.

Everyone ought to think long and hard about it - if the HMO is so shitty what does that tell you about its architect and what does it tell you about his next "great idea"?


Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally.

Don't buy it. "Private" plans and physicians are available in Great Britain, and probably elsewhere in Europe.

In the USSR it was necessary to bribe the Physicians and other health workers for anesthesia, clean sheets and post Op care.

In China patients now pay cash for services - capitalism has arrived in China I suppose.


Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line?

I work damn hard for my money and my bennies. Why should some lazy dope smoking slacker get the same quality of medical treatment as myself? Why should I wait in line behind them?

What incentive does a Canadian have to work hard to get ahead in life?

Oh, that's right, they don't.... those who work harder get taxed harder, don't they? That's also true in the US, for now anyhow.


Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

I whip out my BC/BS card, which I pay for every two weeks. I get to the front of the line. I don't wait. I don't grovel to the Docs to get me anything special. They also bug me about my weight, which I'm losing and give me low costs annual exams so that I don't end up getting a stroke in the first place.

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.

The Canadian taxpayer has a higher level of per capita debt than their American counterparts, and Canada isn't pissing away money on Carrier Groups, ICBMs and other war toys.

Were it not for Canadian tar sands I have this feeling that Canada could not afford their noble experiment in equality. Maybe they'd have to let the elderly die - as does happen in Great Britain, through starvation in hospital.

Canada is gradually losing Doctors and Nurses, mainly to the US. The average Canadian is waiting far far longer for "Chronic" procedures than insured Americans.


By the way T, NOT ONE US CONGRESSMAN or CONGRESSWOMAN will be covered under Obamacare. They have their own "elite" medical services. Every American ought to think long and hard about it - why does Congress and our Elected Officials have a different medical coverage than us Proles?

Tells me that Obamacare is gonna suck, big time.

Does the Prime Minister of Canada go to a regular Hospital or do they have their own elite care too? I sure hope that Canadian politicians don't have their own elite medical care, what's the point of "equality" if some are more equal than others?

Gene

[GeneW]

British NHS refuses to pay for steroid injections for chronic pain sufferers.

Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.


By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Published: 7:45AM BST 02 Aug 2009
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
Cuts to treatments would save the NHS £33 million. Photo: ANDREW CROWLEY

The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.

Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.

The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.

But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.

Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped.

"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/5955840/Patients-forced-to-live-in-agony-after-NHS-refuses-to-pay-for-painkilling-injections.html

Yes, US Private insurers will also deny treatments... and if you're sick of it you pick a new insurer during "Open Enrollment".

Meanwhile in Britain it's "do or die", but hey, it's fair, isn't it?

Gene

[GeneW]

Whats the rational for blaming Canada for 9-11 terrorists into USA,wouldnt they have had to go through American customs to get into the US?

If I were a Canadian Citizen I'd be asking why those nineteen guys spent months over here, attending flight schools, holding down jobs, taking martial arts classes. If the Canadians let them "slip through" why did the Americans let them become better hijackers during their long stay here?

Especially the revelations that some of the "student pilots" were not interested in learning to land air craft, just take offs and level flight. Landings are important to a lot of pilots, was when I was taking flying lessons, but then again, I wanted to survive the end of the flight.

Gene

[TLyttle]

Don't eat all of that, Gene, some of your information is a bit faulty. As a Canadian, I, too, hear a lot of stuff about long waits, and the lack of availability of some medications that are supposed to be "miracle" cures. We have no more problem getting surgeries and medications than the AVERAGE American. Whatever your health coverage costs you (or your company) is going to be far more than what the SAME coverage costs me, period. If you are lucky enough to be covered, fine, but what happens if you end up being assessed with a "pre-existing condition" and are required to defend yourself against such an assessment? Please don't tell me that this scenario isn't a regular occurrence in the US, the stats say otherwise. After my stroke, my medical coverage, or its cost to me, changed not one whit.

If the Brits (the Canucks are fighting this fight as well) are accepting the US model of private coverage, to the disadvantage of many average people. The Canadian doctors and nurses are lured by that old greed factor, again a US import; so much for the Hippocratic Oath, taken over by the Hypocritical Curse. Even your line about "average Canadians" waiting longer than "insured Americans" points to the real problem: 47 MILLION Americans are NOT insured, many millions more UNDERinsured; some system!

And yes, our Prime Minister (and most of the legislators) uses the public system. And yes, sometimes they depend on other systems, but no more than our (or your) hockey or football players. If we could keep the doctors and nurses we send to the US, things would be easier, and cheaper; see line about "greed". The infringement of the US system on ours is a product of US lobbyists for the HMOs etc: they work hard to find (and tape and photograph) people whose ailments aren't being taken care of right away. Yes, their problems are indeed real, but the blame rests with early political decisions and the lobbying. In either case, the difficulties being reported by, say, Rush Limbaugh, are overblown and sensationalised, American style.

Find some other sources, Gene, not necessarily those who give you information that suits your view.

[JBougie]

he will never know he's banned.........:iono:

Is he really banned??

[TLyttle]

Me? Not yet...

[ChinoCharles]

Gene's a goner.

[TLyttle]

Whaaat? Why??? I found Gene's repartee enlightening and intelligent for the most part, I guess I'm next....

[Bob Dog]

Too heavy a hitter for the more sensitive folks, I guess. I disagreed with him about 70% of the time, but found his diatribes intellectually stimulating in an adversarial kind of way. He was a mental sparring partner who could take a hit and keep punching.

[eTiMaGo]

Gene enjoyed seeing how far he could push moderators. til we pushed back, simple as that

[ChinoCharles]

Gene was not banned due to his political beliefs. He was banned for saying something wildly inappropriate to me via PM. We will never ban people based on their beliefs, but the moderation staff does demand a certain level of respect that Gene was not willing to offer. That is all that needs to be said about it. Back on topic.

[TLyttle]

Fair 'nuff...

[JBougie]

Well, if things were said through PM then we will never know what was said, but it had to be bad if it got him banned. I was about to lose every ounce of respect for the moderators on this forum if it was based on his beliefs.

Thank you guys for proving you aren't evil. lol

[JBougie]

What do you guys think about the bilderbergers, illuminati, new world order, bohemian grove, the skulls, free masons, alan greenspan.

I love the Freemasons ... but I'm a bit partial, as I'm married to one :biggrin:

[JBougie]

I am going to rant for a second. Very simple complaint ...

I am so damn sick of as soon as conservatives start doing what liberals have done FOREVER we get labeled as 'extremists' and 'dangerous' - yet, what is it when liberals do it? 'Peaceful protesting'

Really? REALLY?!? Ugh. It drives me INSANE.

[Malaya1221]

I am going to rant for a second. Very simple complaint ...

I am so damn sick of as soon as conservatives start doing what liberals have done FOREVER we get labeled as 'extremists' and 'dangerous' - yet, what is it when liberals do it? 'Peaceful protesting'

Really? REALLY?!? Ugh. It drives me INSANE.


that sux...wait till they release the dogs or the full force of the govt...forced dissapearance....baton cracking up skulls...fire hoses...put you in jail because of your beliefs...worst, killing you or your families...then, u really have something to complain about.:wink:

[TLyttle]

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

[JBougie]

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

Yes. Yes. Yes. Government is the answer to all our problems. Screw having to be responsible for yourself. :rolleyes:

[JBougie]

that sux...wait till they release the dogs or the full force of the govt...forced dissapearance....baton cracking up skulls...fire hoses...put you in jail because of your beliefs...worst, killing you or your families...then, u really have something to complain about.:wink:

That won't start for another few years.

[Kal-El]

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

No offense as Canada is a great country but,

may I ask what Canada creates/invents, leads in, or is there any technological advances they have made for society, ect..?

The majority of all technology, invention, creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit comes from only a few countries and the most being the USA. Others being Japan, Germany, and a couple of others to a lesser extent.

It's our individual freedoms and liberties that have made this possible, not an intrusive government that cradles us to the grave with false promises.

That is why Obama is the most dangerous person to ever have influence on America. He is deconstructing America in favor of turning us toward a mediocre state where government controls all and the human spirit dies.

[Bob Dog]

WhileI am not the biggest Obama fan in the world this current questionable political situation is incomparably better than the heinious debacle that was the Bush Administration. Never has there been such an erosion of civil liberties, a loss of human rights and a covert restructuring of the nations laws and tax code to favor the intersts of large corporations and the super rich. The Treasury, and the banking system were looted, as well as the invested wealth of the poor, middle an even some of the upper classes. Was wire tapping not intrusive? Was the infringment of government on the internet, and the attempted imposition of religious tenants by government in what is supposed to be a nation with separation of church and state not a total disregard for the constitution. While I find some the PC advocacy of the current adminstration annoying, it is incomparably better than the neofacist destruction the rights of Americans that was Bushland.

[Altitude]

No offense as Canada is a great country but,

may I ask what Canada creates/invents, leads in, or is there any technological advances they have made for society, ect..?

The majority of all technology, invention, creativity, and entrepreneurial spirit comes from only a few countries and the most being the USA. Others being Japan, Germany, and a couple of others to a lesser extent.

I don't really see how swinging technological schlongs has any bearing on the worth of a society.

It's our individual freedoms and liberties that have made this possible, not an intrusive government that cradles us to the grave with false promises.

That is why Obama is the most dangerous person to ever have influence on America. He is deconstructing America in favor of turning us toward a mediocre state where government controls all and the human spirit dies.

Last time I checked the President is still limited to two four year terms and we have a representative Congress that actually has more bearing on what sorts of policies are implemented. What policies would Obama implement that, if proven harmful to American society and ideals, could not be repealed after he leaves office?

This is not the apocalypse. The Republicans will gain more seats next year. Probably not enough to gain a majority, but enough to remove the Dem majority we have now. Then things will stagnate, congress will be gridlocked until 2012 and we'll all get a chance to retain or remove Obama based upon his performance.

I guarantee you that your life will not be drastically altered between now and then. So please lighten up on the doomsday theatrics.

[Malaya1221]

That won't start for another few years.

that can't be! according to some people, 12/21/12 is the end of the world!:biggrin:

in any case, we still have few years to change things(better or worse....but, it's up to us)!

[Kal-El]

I don't really see how swinging technological schlongs has any bearing on the worth of a society.



Last time I checked the President is still limited to two four year terms and we have a representative Congress that actually has more bearing on what sorts of policies are implemented. What policies would Obama implement that, if proven harmful to American society and ideals, could not be repealed after he leaves office?

This is not the apocalypse. The Republicans will gain more seats next year. Probably not enough to gain a majority, but enough to remove the Dem majority we have now. Then things will stagnate, congress will be gridlocked until 2012 and we'll all get a chance to retain or remove Obama based upon his performance.

I guarantee you that your life will not be drastically altered between now and then. So please lighten up on the doomsday theatrics.

The problem is that Obama has so many radicals on his side and it's enough to implement very damaging policies. Congress has never looked this way before. Just two of the bills being forced (Obama Care and Cap and Tax) would significantly damage our society and would be difficult to reverse (especially once government takes over health care). Notice how fast they are trying to force these things before people learn too much about them.

Sometimes it's almost impossible to reverse things. Look at Social Security and Medicare. Two programs with obligations of $57,000,000,000,000.00 (with a "T"). And Obama, Pelosi, Reed, Biden, and so many others want to double down on it. :confused:

[Kal-El]

ouch.. you serious with that post? for one your diaper wearing astronauts would have a tough time doing anything up there without the Canadarm (the robotic arm thats on every one of your shuttles AND the ISS.

Snowmobile....so you can hunt in the deepest snows and forests of Nebraska

Pharmaceuticals

Leader in aerospace design and R&D

Fiber optics

Peacekeeping

Oh and lets not forget who helps keep your butt safe in Afghanistan

read up it will help you avoid looking ignorant...sorry it had to be said

No offense was meant. I'm French Canadian myself. The point was to show how America, as it has been, has created an environment (freedom, capitalism, ect) that works the best at advancing society. All countries create something but realistically there are only a few that create and invent the majority of things.

[TLyttle]

If Canada "invented" anything truly beneficial to the planet, it is peacekeeping, and Canada is proud of that role. Lots of other nations start fights, and Canada (until our current PM got in) was recognised as a truly neutral party who would keep the hotheads from killing off whole generations of each other. Some countries (I include the US in this) saw no value in such a role, and ignored Canada's contributions. Now we have taken on the role of aggressor (Afghanistan) and have lost the respect of many nations for this move; Mr Bush thought it was great...

We treat our citizens equally before the courts, maintain a health and pharmaceutical system that cannot bankrupt a person for getting sick, educate our children (all of them) to a very high standard, and keep handguns off the streets (most handguns in Canada seem to arrive illegally from the US). There is little to fear as one lives here, physically or financially. At the same time our Capital is filled with US firms lobbying our government to change as much of that as possible, particularly the NRA, and the HMO and drug company reps.

Many of our aerospace techs work in the US, the rest are still here working out airplanes and engines to move people as safely as possible. There are very few military machines built or designed here.

We have our share of geniuses and quacks here, same as ANY other country, and there are flaws as well, but (again like any other country) we do our best with what we have...

[JBougie]

The US federal government was NOT created to control and dictate how the citizens live their lives. There is absolutely no reason for the government to have to 'save us' from ourselves. There are a great deal of government programs we need to get rid of and a whole lot of house cleaning starting with Pelosi (God, I loathe that woman).

However, like has been mentioned - we have term limits, so we can at least vote Obama out in 4 years (which, I guarantee if he only sits 1 term in office we will all be labeled racist) and pray that the 'progressives' get the hell out of congress.

We have been indoctrinated over the years (hello public schools...) that socialism is OK and that no one should have to suffer, everyone needs cable TV, and everyone has a right to free healthcare. However, we need to get back to the basic principals of what makes this country great - you don't have a right to shit except the rights that are given to you as a citizen of the USA and if you want something you need to work for it instead of crying to the county becuase you would rather sit on your ass than get a job, but you still think you deserve that BMW. Until Americans get out of that 'but if my neighbor has it, so should I!' mentality, we are screwed. And the liberals love it because they pray on the weak minded.

And PS - If Canada's health care is so great, why the hell are there bus loads of Canadians coming to the Mayo clinic and other areas of the US for health care becuase they can't get seen back home? No offense to the 'great' program you guys have set up but I have never once in my life thought about going to another country to get seen by a doctor. In fact, if I was in another country and fell ill - there is no other place in the world I would rather be seen by a doctor than the US.

[gokartride]

And they wonder why the Republicans are having such a difficult time right now. Saddens me that the party has marginalized itself almost into oblivion.

[Bob Dog]

You will want another countries health care system if you ever get locked out of the healthcare system in this one. It can happen very quickly: a bad injury or a prolonged sickness with reduced income is all it takes. Did you know that 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of famlies no longer have health insurance. They either have been priced out, or have had their insurance cancelled by companies that can find a way to cancel their insurance so as not pay the bill. Close to half the foreclosures in our grand nation are healthcare related. The health insurance system here is nothing but a dirty congame that people have been terrorized into acceptting. The reason people come to this country for health care from other countries is because here, if they are wealthy enough, they can buy their way to the front of the line, leaving millions of Americans without healthcare from health care professionals that their tax dollars helped pay to educate and institutions that their tax dollars and donations help pay to support..

[TLyttle]

Thanks Bob Dog, that keeps me from explaining why most medical setups seem to be superior to the US mess. I must assume that JBougie is young, and still thinks she is invincible; time will show the folly of her attitude. I pay under $100/mo for health care coverage, and I cannot be cancelled, period. My kids pay about the same, and having a child is not a financial burden because of the medical system. We all know that my stroke would have bankrupted me in the US, but not here. I guess she thinks I should just sign over my property to the closest doctor and croak.!

The "busloads" of Canadians heading for Mayo are a few people with mysterious diseases whose survival depends on the research facility at that clinic. And for every Canadian heading south, there are 20 more Americans heading north to get pharmaceuticals at a reasonable, affordable, price (the bus companies run tours!), but now the US Customs has cracked down on those depriving the drug companies from their exorbitant profits. If she has a bombproof insurance system that will not cancel because of a (all-of-a-sudden) "pre-existing condition", good on her; I suggest she keep dreaming in Republican Technicolor for as long as she remains healthy. I spoke to too many Vets down there whose health care was truly second-class, even compared to the Canadian standards. Is that any way to treat those guys?

I do hope her posture isn't too much affected by keeping her head in the sand...

[JBougie]

You will want another countries health care system if you ever get locked out of the healthcare system in this one. It can happen very quickly: a bad injury or a prolonged sickness with reduced income is all it takes. Did you know that 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of famlies no longer have health insurance. They either have been priced out, or have had their insurance cancelled by companies that can find a way to cancel their insurance so as not pay the bill. Close to half the foreclosures in our grand nation are healthcare related. The health insurance system here is nothing but a dirty congame that people have been terrorized into acceptting. The reason people come to this country for health care from other countries is because here, if they are wealthy enough, they can buy their way to the front of the line, leaving millions of Americans without healthcare from health care professionals that their tax dollars helped pay to educate and institutions that their tax dollars and donations help pay to support..

I have a crazy thing called a "savings account" for if and when I don't have insurance coverage. I have a high risk plan - I am 25 and don't go to the doctor every month for stupid things like headaches and hang nails so I don't need to pay for extra coverage. My husband and I pay $80 a month and it is perfect for us, it covers the basic annual check up and preventive things but it's really just there for huge medical emergencies such as car accidents and things of that nature. If I do end up having a sinus infection or something out of the ordinary - I PAY FOR THAT. After I reach a deductible (which is only at $3,000 ... so in the medical world that is a very small drop in the bucket) then the insurance kicks in and covers a percentage of the remaining balance.

Honestly, it is the responsibility of NO ONE but you to ensure that YOU are taken care of. It's not like I'm being crazy here - it's really just common sense. So why everyone has this 'but I can't do this alone so the government needs to give it to me' attitude is beyond me. Maybe I missed the day in class when they made sense of it all, but I really doubt it.

As for getting kicked off our insurance - if you go to a country with nationalized health care, you can be left untreated because THEY don't think you are worth the investment. You can be left untreated because THEY think you're not the 'model' of healthy and so you don't deserve treatment; you are completely and totally giving government the right to gamble with your health, and the treatment of. No thanks - they can't even read a Bill for the sake of our countries future, I sure as hell don't want them telling my doctor how to practice medicine.

And, side note: Has anyone read the health care bill being proposed in the US? All 1,000 +/- pages of it? Because if you haven't, you should. I am on page 329, I would probably have more of it but I work full time, volunteer three nights a week with a juvenile diversion program and go to school full time ... so my extra curricular reading time has been drastically cut.

[JBougie]

Thanks Bob Dog, that keeps me from explaining why most medical setups seem to be superior to the US mess. I must assume that JBougie is young, and still thinks she is invincible; time will show the folly of her attitude. I pay under $100/mo for health care coverage, and I cannot be cancelled, period. My kids pay about the same, and having a child is not a financial burden because of the medical system. We all know that my stroke would have bankrupted me in the US, but not here. I guess she thinks I should just sign over my property to the closest doctor and croak.!

The "busloads" of Canadians heading for Mayo are a few people with mysterious diseases whose survival depends on the research facility at that clinic. And for every Canadian heading south, there are 20 more Americans heading north to get pharmaceuticals at a reasonable, affordable, price (the bus companies run tours!), but now the US Customs has cracked down on those depriving the drug companies from their exorbitant profits. If she has a bombproof insurance system that will not cancel because of a (all-of-a-sudden) "pre-existing condition", good on her; I suggest she keep dreaming in Republican Technicolor for as long as she remains healthy. I spoke to too many Vets down there whose health care was truly second-class, even compared to the Canadian standards. Is that any way to treat those guys?

I do hope her posture isn't too much affected by keeping her head in the sand...

You may not ever be canceled ... but they sure as shit can delay treatment as long as they want to, hopefully you don't die before they decide you're worthy of treatment. You might, but hey - it's cheap, right?

And as for the health care of our vets - you're right, it isn't perfect ... I definitely wouldn't say it's 2nd class. My father is 100% disabled out of the US Navy - he was shot in the back so while we were growing up we had Champ VA insurance (he still has that insurance, of course). It was completely paid for, we went to the dentist regularly and saw a doctor whenever we were sick. My father has had 8 back surgeries and thanks to the VA he can still walk. Now, the waits can be crazy and it might take you a week to get in to see a doctor but that also greatly depends on which VA center you have to go to - the administrative side is a giant pain in the ass to deal with, but so is Blue Cross Blue Shield. Actually - I take that back, BCBS is more of a pain in the ass to deal with. At least at the VA I know whoever answers the phone will speak English :rolleyes:

Also, just because I don't drink from the liberal drinking cup doesn't mean my head is in the sand. But you're awesome for thinking that :rolleyes:

[RedRide]

No one in the US wants another country's health care sys. We need one that is taylor made for us, For the US

All the healthcare reform misinformation has its genesis with the health care insurance/pharmaceutical industry who are making billions of dollars within the present sys.
Since june, their lobbyist have spent over 45 billion dollars to spread all the misinfomation to keep the geese that are laying the golden eggs alive.

The right wing is hanging on every false word they say as they both have the same objective: make Obama and his policies fail with no regaurd for the wellfare of the country.

[JBougie]

No one in the US wants another country's health care sys. We need one that is taylor made for us, For the US

All the healthcare reform misinformation has its genesis with the health care insurance/pharmaceutical industry who are making billions of dollars within the present sys.
Since june, their lobbyist have spent over 45 billion dollars to spread all the misinfomation to keep the geese that are laying the golden eggs alive.

The right wing is hanging on every false word they say as they both have the same objective: make Obama and his policies fail with no regaurd for the wellfare of the country.

No one wants Obama to fail - his failures could really screw our country over. This is the best damn place on the planet to live and if you think that we WANT someone to screw that up, you sir are sadly mistaken.

You should read the Bill - seriously. You should read all the little tidbits that are thrown in there. They sure aren't discussing those on the 5:00 news, some of it is pretty crazy.

[Bob Dog]

Repeat : 6 months after the onset of a serious illness 60% of families no longer have health insurance. Once again so it sinks in: around 50% home foreclosures are medically related. Private health insurance is a scam just like the banking scam was a scam. It is structured by actuaries to maximize corporate profits not to provide health care. It is entrenched, crooked and set up like a lottery that is meant to never pay off (or payoff as little as possible). The odds are stacked, by corporate accountants and lawyers who spend their entire professional lives seting things up against you and you can not win, and they set it up so you can not even percieve the manner in which you are being ripped off. Who ever put in your mind that corporations must fulfill what they say they will? The laws do not make them . They are so rich that they buy and sell the law. You are under the delusion that what people in positions of authority tell you is the truth and for your benefit. It is not, it a distortion of facts that they skillfully tell by means of professional liars to get you to do and believe whatever it takes to relieve you of as much of your money as possible. And if you think that savings account is going to cover you I've got some news for you, they'll burn through that about as fast as a crackhead smokes a rock. America's health care system is now rated 37 th in the industrialised world. 37 TH. It does not serve the long term needs of most people. Just because you have never been locked out, or told what you were lead to believe was covered is a preexisting condition and is not does not mean it is not going to happen. You are a prime time sucker and what you do drink is a big glass of bull's smilk. Everyday: for breakfast, for lunch and for dinner.

[TLyttle]

Please, JBougie, don't believe all the crap you read (or hear) about the Canadian system! Not only can I not be cancelled, but I get top of the line treatment in a timely manner, regardless of my age, previous illnesses, OR MY BANK BALANCE! Why is that so hard for you to understand? And we ALL are treated that way, regardless of the fact that our system is 30% cheaper per capita than the US system. Why should you have to save for something that should be your right? Your savings should be for a house, for your future, not to give over to a medical problem and still be short!

Pay attention to Bob Dog, he is closer to the facts than I am.

As far as the vets are concerned, why should one VA hospital be less effective than another? One woman had to re-use some of the equipment over time or be charged for it. Your dad may be getting good treatment (I question the need for 8 surgeries...), but is that the rule or the exception?

As time goes by, your experiences will give you perspective, something you seem to be lacking. Travel more; that too is a better use for your savings, and will be a better education than what you are getting now...

[Malaya1221]

However, like has been mentioned - we have term limits, so we can at least vote Obama out in 4 years (which, I guarantee if he only sits 1 term in office we will all be labeled racist).....

we're all racist...the only difference is, i'm just a recovering one!

having "black" friend/s is not a defense for this argument!:smile:

[kac]

Just got done removing rear seat from yaris.... pretty tired now, but gotta make a run to the video store... :smile:

[TLyttle]

Just heard a book review that should be of interest to JBougie: "Empire of Illusion" by Chris Hedges; I can hardly wait to find a copy. If you want a preview, Google "The Current", and look up the title. Worth a try, but I think J's mind is already made up...

[ChinoCharles]

Easy to argue against giving tens of millions of uninsured Americans access to cheaper health care when you're on Medicare, isn't it, old cranky people? Go home. Matlock is on in 10 minutes.

Tea Party whackos don't want reform. At all. Well, I'm sorry, let me rephrase... THEY don't know what they want. They listen to the guy in the corner. With the suit. And the fat wallet. He knows best, and he bought lunch.

Most of these bumbling morons don't have the IQ required to understand the issues at hand. You can tell when they argue. Intelligent people can convey a point without spitting and waving fingers. That is the difference between civil discourse and lunacy. That guy that got in Arlen Specter's face today could barely complete a sentence. He sounded like he had a mouthful of bouncy balls. Elmer Fudd with a brochure of talking points. Point is it isn't about the issues. They just don't like the black guy telling them what is best, even if he is the smartest one in the room. If Obama was old, white and southern, the right would be all over it.

I hope all of these people get cancer and get dropped from their coverage.

My family (like a lot of well-educated, well-to-do democratic families with strong blue-collar roots) are talking about leaving the country that the right is now busy ruining. I hear Canada is lovely. If this shit persists, I won't subject my children to a society where morons like this walk the streets, apparently in droves. Who knew?

With every passing day, I come closer to being ashamed of my country. I wish Dems would tell Republicans to climb a tree and get a good view while we pass this bill along party lines. I couldn't care less what a Republican has to say right now. They gave us Bush AND Palin! Every side has morons (Pelosi) but theirs are BAAAAAAAD. :laugh:

OK, I feel better now. Back to Yarii!

[ChinoCharles]

One more thing... a friend brought it to my attention. I'm talking about the far right. Shoot, the far left pisses me off too. The ones in the middle are all OK by me, and for the record I don't consider myself to be a radical liberal.

[TLyttle]

Good posts, Charles, very good perspective...

Cranky and old usually has to do with big errors being committed, combined with decades of experience, and maybe cranky old buggers should be listened to, at least for the perspective.

[Kal-El]

Easy to argue against giving tens of millions of uninsured Americans access to cheaper health care when you're on Medicare, isn't it, old cranky people? Go home. Matlock is on in 10 minutes.

Tea Party whackos don't want reform. At all. Well, I'm sorry, let me rephrase... THEY don't know what they want. They listen to the guy in the corner. With the suit. And the fat wallet. He knows best, and he bought lunch.

Most of these bumbling morons don't have the IQ required to understand the issues at hand. You can tell when they argue. Intelligent people can convey a point without spitting and waving fingers. That is the difference between civil discourse and lunacy. That guy that got in Arlen Specter's face today could barely complete a sentence. He sounded like he had a mouthful of bouncy balls. Elmer Fudd with a brochure of talking points. Point is it isn't about the issues. They just don't like the black guy telling them what is best, even if he is the smartest one in the room. If Obama was old, white and southern, the right would be all over it.

I hope all of these people get cancer and get dropped from their coverage.

My family (like a lot of well-educated, well-to-do democratic families with strong blue-collar roots) are talking about leaving the country that the right is now busy ruining. I hear Canada is lovely. If this shit persists, I won't subject my children to a society where morons like this walk the streets, apparently in droves. Who knew?

With every passing day, I come closer to being ashamed of my country. I wish Dems would tell Republicans to climb a tree and get a good view while we pass this bill along party lines. I couldn't care less what a Republican has to say right now. They gave us Bush AND Palin! Every side has morons (Pelosi) but theirs are BAAAAAAAD. :laugh:

OK, I feel better now. Back to Yarii!

One more thing... a friend brought it to my attention. I'm talking about the far right. Shoot, the far left pisses me off too. The ones in the middle are all OK by me, and for the record I don't consider myself to be a radical liberal.

:eek:

Wow, I don't know where to start. First off, you are a radical liberal based on the first post.

Second, you clearly haven't read the bill. Neither has anyone else in this country who supports it.

I'm tired of all the liberals so entranced by Obama's repetitive talking points
that give no information and details on the plan while blindly following the "change" because it must be better because he says so. He says the same things everyday. "You can keep your plan"...blah, blah, blah.

Obama is either lying with a bold face or hasn't read the bill himself. In fact, it's both.

READ THE BILL FOLKS!!!

There are so many things in there that you wouldn't believe could be implemented in America.

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- you WILL lose you private health plan and be forced onto the government plan as soon as you fall off you current plan for any reason (change job, employer changes, ect.).

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

I could go on and on but I need sleep.

Liberals don't think. All they see is "hope and change" and history being made with a black man in office. Therefore we must support him and his policies blindly. Anyone who criticizes him is racist. It's a good thing Bush wasn't criticized because imagine all the racists!

God help us.

[TLyttle]

Yeah, those damn Liberals, clearly they don't think. I mean, why would any form of compassion be part of the system? And those illegals, why are they there, taking jobs that legals simply will not do? How inconsiderate of them!

And imagine the taxes going up! Why should the US pay near World price for fuel if it is in taxes going to health care? Or cigarettes? Or beer?? Oh, the horror! Fact is, Canadians go into the US to buy these commodities to avoid the taxes charged by the Canadian government, and therefore damage their own health care system and worse, their own health. Americans don't seem to mind paying taxes to run wars, but rebel at the thought that taxes would pay for equitable health care; I guess that makes sense, just not to me is all.

And I really don't see where race has anything to do with it, but I guess that is a Liberal outlook, sorry...

[JBougie]

:eek:

Wow, I don't know where to start. First off, you are a radical liberal based on the first post.

Second, you clearly haven't read the bill. Neither has anyone else in this country who supports it.

I'm tired of all the liberals so entranced by Obama's repetitive talking points
that give no information and details on the plan while blindly following the "change" because it must be better because he says so. He says the same things everyday. "You can keep your plan"...blah, blah, blah.

Obama is either lying with a bold face or hasn't read the bill himself. In fact, it's both.

READ THE BILL FOLKS!!!

There are so many things in there that you wouldn't believe could be implemented in America.

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- you WILL lose you private health plan and be forced onto the government plan as soon as you fall off you current plan for any reason (change job, employer changes, ect.).

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

I could go on and on but I need sleep.

Liberals don't think. All they see is "hope and change" and history being made with a black man in office. Therefore we must support him and his policies blindly. Anyone who criticizes him is racist. It's a good thing Bush wasn't criticized because imagine all the racists!

God help us.

Today, I realized how screwed we are.

They are having problems acquiring the promised funding of $225million from the Feds to deploy National Guard troops to the border for BORDER SECURITY (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_national_guard_border) ... however, in NY the Feds gave $140million dollars to 'poor' kids so they could get school supplies. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_billionaire_feds_give_out_175m_to_aid_neediest_ students_around_the_state_its_fre.html

Getting kids crayons is more important than the f'n security of our country?! Are you kidding me?!

[Bob Dog]

Big business playing little suckers

[NJBob]

It's a stinking shame that healthcare quality would diminish as healthcare officials will make less money. You'd hope that doctors and nurses and dentists become so because of their need to help mankind...not because of the money. I guess we haven't evolved as much as I thought. http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/other/19.gif

[2+2]

It's death panels hiding outside people's windows looking for any sign of weakness that bothers me. lol But maybe there's a business opportunity here, teaching people how to look healthy 24/7 so their government doesn't haul them away. :smile:

Are the people sounding off at these town hall meetings for real? Someone is paying them to act like that, right? Gotta be. We can't be that stupid, we just can't.

We didn't let Wall St take over social security because we knew they're muck it up, and that was even before they screwed up the world economy. So why do we tolerate Wall St running our health care system?

[Bob Dog]

Read the bill? There is no bill. The are three proposed bills, all different. What you are presenting is corporate dog slop pretending to be T-bone. For eight years you foolish neocons swallowed any kind of nonsense that big money was able to construct and promolgate as long as it appealed to your sheepish sensibilities. It left our nation and our empire pretty much in ruin, as both were looted by corporate greed. Heaven help us if doctors make less money.. They only make about 40 times what a minimum wage earner makes, and about 10 times the median household income of an average american family.They what you to believe that anybody who would reduce the cash flow into their big deep pockets is evil and bent on your destruction and they're ready to spend hundreds of millions to convince you that it is so. Its sucker bait, and darned if you don't bite on it everytime.

[Kal-El]

It's a stinking shame that healthcare quality would diminish as healthcare officials will make less money. You'd hope that doctors and nurses and dentists become so because of their need to help mankind...not because of the money. I guess we haven't evolved as much as I thought. http://smilies.vidahost.com/otn/other/19.gif

Would you go to school for 8 hard extra years + interning and rack up a typical $300,000 in loans only to make an average living afterward?

:confused:

[Kal-El]

A question for the liberals. Would any of you honestly travel outside of the US for medical treatment? It's a really simple question.

Honestly, I don't expect the left to answer because the debate would be over.

[Bob Dog]

Hell yes, and don't go calling me a liberal just because I am not a fool and a sucker for the corporate propaganda machine.

[ChinoCharles]

A question for the liberals. Would any of you honestly travel outside of the US for medical treatment? It's a really simple question.

Honestly, I don't expect the left to answer because the debate would be over.

No, I wouldn't. What difference does it make?

And no, I'm not a "radical liberal." I just don't understand how anyone in their right mind (no pun intended) can look at the health care systems in other countries and think ours makes a stitch of sense. I'm not just drinking BO's kool aid on this. I think he's missing some big points in all of this. Nobody is talking about tort reform, and thats kind of baffling, but I'm still content to do the best we can. Nothing isn't the best we can.

Of course, we have "the best health care in the world." Please! We have the best DOCTORS and NURSES in the world, no doubt. Health care? I don't think so. Typical American ethnocentrism... talk about a preexisting condition. Can't take a good example from another country because if you aren't under the stars and stripes, you don't matter. Wake up. This is working seemingly everywhere but here.

[RedRide]

There is no "biil" to read, only corporate/right wing lies!

There is now an unholy alliance between those who hate Obama and the health care insurance industry lobby. They both are propogating nothing but the most rediculous lies in attempts kill any sort of healt care reform.

The fact the health care insurance industry in behind all the lies is well doumented and can't be denied by anyone who has a couple of brain cells and seeks the truth!

[TLyttle]

Kal-El asks a couple of questions there: No one is denying that doctors work hard to get their degrees, but so do engineers, nurses, and many others whose purported goal is as lofty as a doctor's. Most of them do NOT make as much as doctors do. And please don't tell me that all doctors are worth the money they make: even without living down there, I have seen many examples of MDs that I wouldn't let work on a cow. They were the ones who chose their profession, and mouthed the Hippocratic Oath, with the dollar signs dancing in their eyes. Canadian doctors make good money as well, but they somehow remember that helping people is what it is really all about.

As far as travelling outside the US is concerned, let us tell you one more time: the US system is 40% more expensive than the Canadian system (and EVERYONE is covered) with no difference in competence. We don't all live in igloos here, sir, and have paved roads; our hospitals are as up-to-date as most in the US with as many competent physicians and nurses on staff. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, develop some perspective on this subject simply by learning how the rest of the world operates. Not all your medical research should come from Faux News....

[elmo]

? for you TLyttle,

if Canadian health care is good why does the manager of our Toronto office take his family across the border to Buffalo and pay out of his pocket for health care ??

[ChinoCharles]

Answer: because our medical schools are some of the best in the world and they produce the best doctors in the world. A public option won't change that.

Cleveland, Ohio. Small market, one of the best cancer clinics on Earth. One example of many.

[mo_feezy]

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

What I don't understand is why anyone uses these things as a point of contention. Do you think these things don't already happen? They DO already happen. Insurance companies have their own death panels, and theirs are consistently denying coverage to 50% of those seeking coverage. 50% of the people who have paid their insurance bills out of their wages for many years are denied coverage when the companies decide it's too expensive. It isn't insurance if they can only insure you will be covered 50% of the time.

We are not actually talking about health care reform. We are talking about government health insurance, not universal health care. If our peer nations can provide health care to all of their citizens, we can do it as well.

These "grassroots protesters" and "teabaggers" are actually just puppets of the corporate mechanisms operating in our country. The media covers their behavior and makes it seem like it is happening much more than it actually is.

[Kal-El]

We are not actually talking about health care reform. We are talking about government health insurance, not universal health care. If our peer nations can provide health care to all of their citizens, we can do it as well.

These "grassroots protesters" and "teabaggers" are actually just puppets of the corporate mechanisms operating in our country. The media covers their behavior and makes it seem like it is happening much more than it actually is.


Your right, this isn't about health care, it's about insurance.

It's about government control and once they get this, they'll be able to control a greater part of our lives because our lifestyle most greatly effects the cost of health care.

Another obvious question. How's that budget doing for Medicare and Medicaid? Since they're doing so well, let's go ahead with this proposed Medicare for all. After all, the government is known for cutting costs and doing things most efficiently. Hello????????

Where does this confidence in government come from? My head is about to explode over this stupidity. They are bankrupting our country into oblivion and liberals want to hand it all over to government? That's hope and change?

People, we are quickly losing our country. The place where individual freedom and liberty has created the greatest level of wealth and prosperity and a lifestyle which has always been the envy of the world. It's "The American Dream". I never heard of the socialist dream.

I know Obama is trying to close them, but please open your eyes!

[gokartride]

From what I observe the government is far less of a problem than people try to make it out to be.

[Kal-El]

Kal-El asks a couple of questions there: No one is denying that doctors work hard to get their degrees, but so do engineers, nurses, and many others whose purported goal is as lofty as a doctor's. Most of them do NOT make as much as doctors do. And please don't tell me that all doctors are worth the money they make: even without living down there, I have seen many examples of MDs that I wouldn't let work on a cow. They were the ones who chose their profession, and mouthed the Hippocratic Oath, with the dollar signs dancing in their eyes. Canadian doctors make good money as well, but they somehow remember that helping people is what it is really all about.

As far as travelling outside the US is concerned, let us tell you one more time: the US system is 40% more expensive than the Canadian system (and EVERYONE is covered) with no difference in competence. We don't all live in igloos here, sir, and have paved roads; our hospitals are as up-to-date as most in the US with as many competent physicians and nurses on staff. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, develop some perspective on this subject simply by learning how the rest of the world operates. Not all your medical research should come from Faux News....

Canada is infamous with loooong waiting times. In America, if I need surgery today or tomorrow, I get it with no problem. I'm not put on a waiting list for 6 months like Canada.

In Great Britain, they are already denying things like breast cancer treatment for women leaving them to die.

Plus, you mention our high cost. Yes, there's some waste that needs addressing. Conservatives are pushing for tort reform and LESS bureaucracy which are two huge cost factors. This new plan will greatly increase bureaucracy.

Plus, one thing to keep in mind is, is that the best of something is almost always the most expensive.

[Altitude]

Plus, one thing to keep in mind is, is that the best of something is almost always the most expensive.

Problem is we do NOT have the best healthcare but we DO have the most expensive.

Healthcare should not be a for profit industry due to the inherent conflict of interest. These corporations routinely make decisions on whether or not to cover a particular claim, decline coverage for pre-existing conditions etc. all in the name of profit. As it stands now MONEY is more important than an individuals health and if you don't see a problem with that then I would question your humanity.

The fact remains that something must be done and I applaud Obama and the Dems for at least trying since Reps never seem to do anything about healthcare when they are in charge (except trying to get rid of Medicare/Medicaid.)

There are those that believe a society is formed to improve the lives and benefit all. There are others that view society as an impediment to their own aspirations. I'm proud to be in the former category.

[mo_feezy]

I'm pretty sure you are just really, really misinformed about wait times for things, and on these death panel ideas. Sure there are examples of people waiting longer than people wait on average in the U.S., but that is because we only count those with health insurance. Those without insurance NEVER get that surgery they need. And you didn't address my last point in its entirety. All of these problems you are claiming happen here too under the current system. We can claim lower wait times because we don't count the wait times for the 50% of insured Americans who have their claims denied by the huge bureaucracies in the insurance industry. It's just simple manipulation of the numbers and you are wholeheartedly buying into it.

This stuff has been covered ad nauseum all over the media and the internet, but if you are only getting your news from fox, you are not seeing that side of the story.

What I don't understand is why people are so critical of government involvement in this context but not when it comes to wiretapping, the suspension of habeas corpus, etc. Conservatives willingly supported the previous administration who were unabashed liars, crooks, and straight up criminals, but now the country is falling apart because the government wants to play the health insurance game? Ha!

When I look at the inefficiencies of the U.S. government, I almost always see the corporate (private and public business) side of it as being just as bad, if not worse. As a conservative, I am sure you have absolutely no idea of what it's like to be led around blindly. right? Yeah, right. In fact, you probably don't notice the conflict of interest between what you just happen to think is the right way to do things like healthcare, and the fact that the people paying for your movement have a financial stake in winning this issue.


My head is about to explode over this stupidity.

at least we can agree on this quote...

and just to clarify, having the best medical research facilities and training does not mean we have the best healthcare in the world. 99.9% of us could NEVER afford the cutting edge, high-tech health care that is being studied in these medical schools and facilities. Mainly, because our private insurance companies (for those of us wealthy enough to have insurance, and not have out claims denied) only allow us to see certain doctors. And i'll give you a guess as to where those doctors fall into the spectrum from cream of the crop to bottom of the barrel.

[mo_feezy]

this is another example of why liberal politicians must promote change to be successful, while conservatives (by their very identity) only need to prevent change from happening to be successful.

[ChinoCharles]

Canada is infamous with loooong waiting timesWe have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

In Great Britain, they are already denying things like breast cancer treatment for women leaving them to die. Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

People, we are quickly losing our countryWho is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

The place where individual freedom and liberty has created the greatest level of wealth and prosperity Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

[Bob Dog]

here, here !:clap:

[JBougie]

TLyttle - what % do you pay in taxes? All taxes - at all government levels, what is your income tax % (like here in Minnesota, our sales tax is 6.5% and they take about 16% of my paycheck in various taxes), and what is your sales tax amounts? I am trying to add up some figures.

[JBougie]

We have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

Who is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

5 or 10% of your income? Where do you live? In Minnesota, $.49 cents of every dollar you make goes to taxes. I'd LOVE to only pay 5 or 10%!!

[Bob Dog]

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

[JBougie]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/09/24/hospital-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories (http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories) <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

[JBougie]

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

I was hoping that is what he meant ... if someone actually thought they were only forced to give the government 5% of their income, they would need a serious reality check.

And how the hell are you going to say I seem prone to only skim posts?

[mo_feezy]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/09/24/hospital-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories (http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories) <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

you don't see any problem with 3 of these 4 sources? really? THIS is exactly why you are being so misled. the only one of those that could even be considered impartial is the cbc.gov article, and even there it's a single example, not evidence of a pattern.

Some political scientists recently did a study and found that conservatives are more likely to continue to defend their position even when evidence that is essentially 100% certain is presented to the contrary. It's not even worth trying to change your mind.

[Bob Dog]

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

[JBougie]

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

You're joking right? Because I have responded to ONE of your posts before this 'skimming' subject.

So, how do you think I should be posting? Should I respond to every word posted? Going forward I'll make sure to quote each area and then post "No comment" before going forward. :rolleyes:

I really haven't gotten into this thread much, at all ... but since the semester is officially over tomorrow I may just have to.

There are 4 executive management members who work for my company who are from Canada - 1 from the west coast and 3 from the middle/east coast - they all have told me stories first hand of how 'great' their medical was, they said flat out it wasn't. Personal stories from real women with real families mean a whole lot more to me than anything I'll hear out of some shit-feeding politician. No matter how many links are posted with support leaning toward either side, NOTHING means more to me than hearing stories of what those families have had to go through.

But, I do ask again - has anyone read the proposed bill(s)? NO ONE should be debating or going over facts about why they think this will be great until they know what the hell it says! That is like going in for a job interview not know what you're applying for telling the guy behind the desk you know what you'll be doing. It just doesn't make sense.

I printed H.R. 3200 on 7/28 and it printed 538 pages of the bill; however now when I look at it there is only 39 pages in the full text version, so that confuses me but there are quite a few different bills out there - so who knows what the hell is going on there. If you're going to debate this health care topic, you should read the bill(s) and then point out what is good and bad about it. No offense to those neighbors from the north here but you're Canadian and things are different here even though we're so close to each other, so no matter how great you say your program is (even though I've heard very vibrant stories to the contrary) it isn't going to operate the same here - we are very different people.

[Malaya1221]

Today, I realized how screwed we are.

They are having problems acquiring the promised funding of $225million from the Feds to deploy National Guard troops to the border for BORDER SECURITY (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/us_national_guard_border) ... however, in NY the Feds gave $140million dollars to 'poor' kids so they could get school supplies. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/2009/08/12/2009-08-12_billionaire_feds_give_out_175m_to_aid_neediest_ students_around_the_state_its_fre.html

Getting kids crayons is more important than the f'n security of our country?! Are you kidding me?!


yes, education is more important!

i agree that people/big corporations are insane, for spending millions of dollars in ads spreading lies about the health care reform!

they might as well put all those monies to the "border security" funds!:wink:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_health_care

[Kal-El]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/story/2008/09/24/hospital-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories (http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories) <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm


:thumbsup:

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.

[Bob Dog]

Yes read every word of a post, or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response to a post as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

[JBougie]

Read every word or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

Every word is read.

That doesn't mean I have to respond to it.

Oh, by the way - I'm hardly a neocon.

[ChinoCharles]

Guys, we can argue all we want but please keep it civil. I hold no grudges against those with opposing viewpoints despite how frustrated I get. Try to keep name calling to a minimum. One day this will all blow over. You know, after we have single-payer coverage. :laugh:

[Altitude]

:thumbsup:

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.

Facts? Did you look at those sites? It's all subjective opinion and second hand stories. The only factual part is that these things happened but it's hardly sufficient to make any sort of judgement.

--------

JBougie - I'm a little lost as to how you can be so opposed to a government run heathcare system when your father is living proof of its efficacy. Would I be incorrect to assume he is also on Medicare? What story would you be telling us today if not for the support of public monies and government services to provide for his well being? Given your own personal experiences I would have expected a bit more empathy and compassion towards the matter.

Do you hold a firm stance against any form of national healthcare or is it just that you just dislike the approach that is being taken?

[TLyttle]

We try to give you facts, Kal-El, but clearly they are coming form the wrong source for you to absorb. I had a stroke: total time before treatment, from the time I walked into the hospital, less than 10 minutes. Long wait? Same thing with anyone else I have spoken to: life-threatening or dibilitating injuries are treated right away, every time, using whatever means possible. Our problems here have to do with very long distances between places and poor weather conditions.

Do we have people waiting for electives? Sure we do, but getting treatment does NOT have anything to do with one's credit status! Why is that such a problem? If you are alright, that seems to be fine; anyone else without the financing, well, they can just die on the street... Lovely attitude.

I spent many years helping with the handicapped, making very little money; because I didn't go for the gold, I suppose I have no right to medical attention when I need it.... silly me....

[JBougie]

Guys, we can argue all we want but please keep it civil. I hold no grudges against those with opposing viewpoints despite how frustrated I get. Try to keep name calling to a minimum. One day this will all blow over. You know, after we have single-payer coverage. :laugh:

I agree - name calling is below the belt. If I have, I won't continue.

And this will never blow over lol there is a reason that different parties were made in the first place, since the dawn of time people have always thought differently from one another :wink:

[2+2]

Too funny. Copied the following from Woot.com (http://www.woot.com/) Good one Woot!

Town Holler
Uh, no, sir, I don’t even know what an Illuminati is. Now, let me dispel some of the myths and rumors going around about what exactly this Acer desktop computer will do.

First things first: it will not kill your grandmother. Unless maybe it falls on her from a moderate height. Or if someone throws it into her bath while it’s plugged in. Let me be clear: I do not support that. Acer does not support that. Nobody supports that. I think we can all agree that grandmas are nice.

Sir – sir, please, if you’ll – no, that’s not the sound of a black helicopter. It’s just the gymnasium’s air conditioning kicking on.

Others, located somewhat closer to reality, say that our children and grandchildren will be paying for these computers forever. They say that Woot can’t possibly deliver a compact but powerful desktop PC with dual-core 2.4Ghz processor, 4GB of memory, and 640GB hard drive for just $299. I say there’s some truth to that. It will actually cost another five dollars to get it to your door. If you need your kids to pay for that, maybe they could get a paper route or something. Just for a week, that’d probably do it.

Please, people, put down that burning trash can. That’s not helpful to this dialogue.

Finally, there’s this crazy rumor going around about how this Acer desktop PC was actually born in Kenya as the secret love child of Malcolm X and the Dixie Chicks, and was sent to America by the communists to smash democracy, impose Sharia law, hand over General Motors to the Arabs, destroy the American right to choose between two different high def 23 inch monitors and wipe boogers in Glenn Beck’s Cheerios. All I can say to that is, you’re going to need some serious psychological counseling and probably medication. Hope your health insurance will cover it.

[mo_feezy]

Too funny. Copied the following from Woot.com (http://www.woot.com/) Good one Woot!

Town Holler
Uh, no, sir, I don’t even know what an Illuminati is. Now, let me dispel some of the myths and rumors going around about what exactly this Acer desktop computer will do.

First things first: it will not kill your grandmother. Unless maybe it falls on her from a moderate height. Or if someone throws it into her bath while it’s plugged in. Let me be clear: I do not support that. Acer does not support that. Nobody supports that. I think we can all agree that grandmas are nice.

Sir – sir, please, if you’ll – no, that’s not the sound of a black helicopter. It’s just the gymnasium’s air conditioning kicking on.

Others, located somewhat closer to reality, say that our children and grandchildren will be paying for these computers forever. They say that Woot can’t possibly deliver a compact but powerful desktop PC with dual-core 2.4Ghz processor, 4GB of memory, and 640GB hard drive for just $299. I say there’s some truth to that. It will actually cost another five dollars to get it to your door. If you need your kids to pay for that, maybe they could get a paper route or something. Just for a week, that’d probably do it.

Please, people, put down that burning trash can. That’s not helpful to this dialogue.

Finally, there’s this crazy rumor going around about how this Acer desktop PC was actually born in Kenya as the secret love child of Malcolm X and the Dixie Chicks, and was sent to America by the communists to smash democracy, impose Sharia law, hand over General Motors to the Arabs, destroy the American right to choose between two different high def 23 inch monitors and wipe boogers in Glenn Beck’s Cheerios. All I can say to that is, you’re going to need some serious psychological counseling and probably medication. Hope your health insurance will cover it.

i love woot.

[TLyttle]

French-Canadian or not, there are major flaws in his information; maybe he has spent too much time in the US.

Wait times for The Brits were bad in the 80s, the UK Government admits that, but according to the news yesterday, that is no longer the case. Talking to a few Brits would clear that up (don't depend on Rush to give the facts, he's having too much fun inventing stuff), and my recent conversations have not indicated untoward delays.

Lastly, name-calling, or personal insults, only show up when logic fails. If someone attacks me instead of the point, I automatically know I am winning the argument.

[PaidTimeOff]

I think we can all agree that factcheck.org is a pretty reputable resource, correct? Well they just released an article today about seven pretty big falsehoods people ON BOTH SIDES have about healthcare...

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/

For those of you not into reading, here's a list of the seven falsehoods:

False: Government Will Decide What Care I Get (a.k.a. they won’t give grandma a hip replacement)

False: The Bill Is Paid For

False: Private Insurance Will Be Illegal

False: The House Bill Requires Suicide Counseling

False: Families Will Save $2,500

False: Medicare Benefits Will Be Slashed

False: Illegal Immigrants Will Be Covered

Don't believe it? Click the link. The evidence is there. Srsly.

[ChinoCharles]

Good stuff!

[mo_feezy]

thank you. unfortunately, evidence only seems to make convictions firmer for a small segment of our society, especially when the evidence contradicts them.

[Altitude]

For those of you that listen to or watch Glenn Beck... you owe it to yourselves to watch this. http://www.indecisionforever.com/2009/08/14/jon-stewart-owns-glenn-beck-on-healthcare-hypocrisy/

Don't ever again believe a word that comes out of his mouth.

[Malaya1221]

schooled!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVlZEoQ5a2Q&feature=related

[TLyttle]

Hahaa! No comment on the 180, one doesn't have to be Quebecer or any other nationality to pull that...

Please show me ANY country that has a perfect anything, never mind something as complicated as a medical system. Of course Canada doesn't have a perfect system, but according to my own personal experiences and direct information, Canada's system is far better than the US. I have yet to experience the European systems, but according to stats, they, too, are miles ahead of the US. Why is it that no one able to look at these stats from an objective point of view? Why is it that Americans fear any kind of social program in case it is seen as small-c communism?? They are surrounded by small-c communism in their every day life, but don't even recognise it as such? They are faced with the least effective, most expensive medical system in the free world, and cannot see a better way? Seems apparent that the middle men are winning their PR battle, selling a load of rubbish to Americans. The rich get richer (HMOs, Pharmas, etc) and the poor die on the streets: nice plan...

[2+2]

Hahaa! No comment on the 180, one doesn't have to be Quebecer or any other nationality to pull that...

Please show me ANY country that has a perfect anything, never mind something as complicated as a medical system. Of course Canada doesn't have a perfect system, but according to my own personal experiences and direct information, Canada's system is far better than the US. I have yet to experience the European systems, but according to stats, they, too, are miles ahead of the US. Why is it that no one able to look at these stats from an objective point of view? Why is it that Americans fear any kind of social program in case it is seen as small-c communism?? They are surrounded by small-c communism in their every day life, but don't even recognise it as such? They are faced with the least effective, most expensive medical system in the free world, and cannot see a better way? Seems apparent that the middle men are winning their PR battle, selling a load of rubbish to Americans. The rich get richer (HMOs, Pharmas, etc) and the poor die on the streets: nice plan...

Very well put. The ruling class in the US has a real talent for pushing the buttons of the working classes and getting them to do their bidding. The S-word seems to work every time. I simply love watching the strings being pulled when they call the party that tries to look out for the poor - the "elite". Also, they seem to have a knack for word-smithing. I'm awed by how they renamed the "estate tax" to the "death tax". The guy that made that one up is probably still giggling to himself.

[Kal-El]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbXrSK_VfME

It's amazing how many people are falling for Obama's deception.

Here he is on tape on numerous occasions talking about how this step that they are pushing right now (for a "public option") is just a bridge to what they ultimately want - total single payer government control which is inevitable.

He openly admitted that the transition would take some time but gradual steps would lead to single payer which he DOES want regardless of the rhetoric he's currently spewing.

Since when does a monopoly decrease costs and improve quality and service?

I've never seen it.

:wink:

[2+2]

And right under the youtube "screen" there's "This is a video response to Alleged Barack Obama Kenya Birth Certificate Document Displayed" LOL Sorry - cheap shot but I couldn't resist. If you watch that with due skepticism you'll notice that the single payer quotes were from a long time ago. He's quite open about the fact that he now considers it unfeasible due to how entrenched the insurance companies and others are.

What do Republicans have against this man? He seems like a good guy. He seems to have an ok wife and a couple of cool kids. He's smart. He seems to want to do what's best for all Americans and not just the rich and what a nice change that is. What's wrong?

[mo_feezy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbXrSK_VfME

It's amazing how many people are falling for Obama's deception.

Here he is on tape on numerous occasions talking about how this step that they are pushing right now (for a "public option") is just a bridge to what they ultimately want - total single payer government control which is inevitable.

He openly admitted that the transition would take some time but gradual steps would lead to single payer which he DOES want regardless of the rhetoric he's currently spewing.

Since when does a monopoly decrease costs and improve quality and service?

I've never seen it.

:wink:
I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here, based on your use of the word deception, you think Obama was not born in the U.S., am I right?

You need to seriously consider finding new sources of news information. Focus on something that doesn't have a host who cries on the air regularly.

[JBougie]

Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

I think we can all agree that factcheck.org is a pretty reputable resource, correct? Well they just released an article today about seven pretty big falsehoods people ON BOTH SIDES have about healthcare...

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/seven-falsehoods-about-health-care/

For those of you not into reading, here's a list of the seven falsehoods:

False: Government Will Decide What Care I Get (a.k.a. they won’t give grandma a hip replacement)

False: The Bill Is Paid For

False: Private Insurance Will Be Illegal

False: The House Bill Requires Suicide Counseling

False: Families Will Save $2,500

False: Medicare Benefits Will Be Slashed

False: Illegal Immigrants Will Be Covered

Don't believe it? Click the link. The evidence is there. Srsly.

[JBougie]

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here, based on your use of the word deception, you think Obama was not born in the U.S., am I right?

You need to seriously consider finding new sources of news information. Focus on something that doesn't have a host who cries on the air regularly.

Now, not to be accused again of post skimming - but please explain to me how him stating that Obama is guilty of deception that would somehow mean that he doesn't believe Obama is a US Citizen.

[JBougie]

Guess she just proved that she only thinks protests are OK when they are on the side of her agenda ....
http://www.breitbart.tv/06-flashback-pelosi-tells-anti-war-protesters-im-a-fan-of-disruptors/

[Malaya1221]

And right under the youtube "screen" there's "This is a video response to Alleged Barack Obama Kenya Birth Certificate Document Displayed" LOL Sorry - cheap shot but I couldn't resist. If you watch that with due skepticism you'll notice that the single payer quotes were from a long time ago. He's quite open about the fact that he now considers it unfeasible due to how entrenched the insurance companies and others are.

What do Republicans have against this man? He seems like a good guy. He seems to have an ok wife and a couple of cool kids. He's smart. He seems to want to do what's best for all Americans and not just the rich and what a nice change that is. What's wrong?

people already made up their minds...no matter what obama does, he won't be able to change their mind...

It's hard to hear things clearly if you don't listen.:smile:


Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

you keep saying that you've read the proposal....could you kindly point to us/me one by one your objections to it so we could dissect it and maybe find a common ground...and if you could give a better option than what the health reform is proposing rather than getting furious...it's the only healthy way to solve problems...:wink:

[JBougie]

you keep saying that you've read the proposal....could you kindly point to us/me one by one your objections to it so we could dissect it and maybe find a common ground...and if you could give a better option than what the health reform is proposing rather than getting furious...it's the only healthy way to solve problems...:wink:

I have not said I have read it (just clarifying :biggrin:)- I said I am in the process of reading - well, WAS until they pulled it (oddly enough) off the Thomas.gov site and replaced the full length text version of HR3200 with the 39 page cliff-notes version. So, now I have to figure out which is the latest and greatest and start all over. Which I am going to do becuase - like I have also said and keep saying because I'm so happy to have a break - school is finally out for the semester so I have extra time to spend reading.

I think that if everyone would read a bit of it and come up with something they agree with/disagree with and then hash it out that way it would be a lot better. Nothing gets solved with one-sided debates about things. And really, I don't care what side of the fence you're on - you can't trust a politician and what he says to you becuase they are only looking out for themselves and the interests of who will be voting them into another term :laugh:

[JBougie]

And right under the youtube "screen" there's "This is a video response to Alleged Barack Obama Kenya Birth Certificate Document Displayed" LOL Sorry - cheap shot but I couldn't resist. If you watch that with due skepticism you'll notice that the single payer quotes were from a long time ago. He's quite open about the fact that he now considers it unfeasible due to how entrenched the insurance companies and others are.

What do Republicans have against this man? He seems like a good guy. He seems to have an ok wife and a couple of cool kids. He's smart. He seems to want to do what's best for all Americans and not just the rich and what a nice change that is. What's wrong?

I like his wife, and his daughters are adorable and I like the oldest one ... she seems to have the potential to be a very great example of a strong woman when she gets older. He seems like he'd be a cool ass dude to kick back and have a beer with - I just don't agree with his ideology. But, I can't even name on both hands all of the close friends and family I have that I would kill for but don't see eye to eye with when it comes to politics.

And, I don't know anyone who buys that crock of shit 'he's not an American!' - it's the crazy conspiracy theorists who sit back and think of these things while tin-foiling their windows to block out the CIA brainwashing rays from entering their houses that think of this stuff, I'm pretty sure. :laugh: Anyone with .03% of a brain knows that the administration and the GOP would have absolutely blown this guy out of the water if he truly wasn't a US Citizen, I have been annoyed with that since the allegations first came out. I LOL'd in line at the grocery store yesterday as the headline of Globe or whatever that completely made-up 'news'paper is when I looked and the cover had a picture of some birth certificate and said 'OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE FAKE! PROOF INSIDE!' or something to that .... it was the dumbest thing I had seen in a long time.

[mo_feezy]

Now, not to be accused again of post skimming - but please explain to me how him stating that Obama is guilty of deception that would somehow mean that he doesn't believe Obama is a US Citizen.

because deception is the word of choice for the people implying that Obama is some sort of evil person (the antichrist, even).

[mo_feezy]

And, I don't know anyone who buys that crock of shit 'he's not an American!' - it's the crazy conspiracy theorists who sit back and think of these things while tin-foiling their windows to block out the CIA brainwashing rays from entering their houses that think of this stuff, I'm pretty sure. :laugh: Anyone with .03% of a brain knows that the administration and the GOP would have absolutely blown this guy out of the water if he truly wasn't a US Citizen, I have been annoyed with that since the allegations first came out. I LOL'd in line at the grocery store yesterday as the headline of Globe or whatever that completely made-up 'news'paper is when I looked and the cover had a picture of some birth certificate and said 'OBAMA'S BIRTH CERTIFICATE FAKE! PROOF INSIDE!' or something to that .... it was the dumbest thing I had seen in a long time.

There was a recent poll that showed as many as 25% of respondents identifying as republicans believed he was not born in the U.S.
http://www.pollster.com/blogs/disturbing_poll_on_beliefs_abo.php
another one that finds basically the same numbers even though they didn't believe the findings of the first one. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/aug/06/poll-finds-doubts-on-obamas-birth/

It is not just a couple of crazies.

[Kal-El]

And right under the youtube "screen" there's "This is a video response to Alleged Barack Obama Kenya Birth Certificate Document Displayed" LOL Sorry - cheap shot but I couldn't resist. If you watch that with due skepticism you'll notice that the single payer quotes were from a long time ago. He's quite open about the fact that he now considers it unfeasible due to how entrenched the insurance companies and others are.

What do Republicans have against this man? He seems like a good guy. He seems to have an ok wife and a couple of cool kids. He's smart. He seems to want to do what's best for all Americans and not just the rich and what a nice change that is. What's wrong?

I'm going to take a wild stab in the dark here, based on your use of the word deception, you think Obama was not born in the U.S., am I right?

You need to seriously consider finding new sources of news information. Focus on something that doesn't have a host who cries on the air regularly.


Why are we suddenly talking about his birth certificate? I'm talking about health care right now. The video I posted has nothing to do with questioning his citizenship.

A long time ago? It was 2007 for God sakes.

Are you guys blind to what Obama says himself and just amazed at how he says it? My judgments of him come from the whole picture not just what he reads off of his handy dandy teleprompter everyday. You have to look at what he truly believes and he has come out and said these things over and over in the past. You just can't erase them.

And why is Fox News, Glenn Beck ect. bring brought up. I never said I got my info from that. I draw my own conclusions.

[2+2]

Why are we suddenly talking about his birth certificate? I'm talking about health care right now. The video I posted has nothing to do with questioning his citizenship.

A long time ago? It was 2007 for God sakes.

Are you guys blind to what Obama says himself and just amazed at how he says it? My judgments of him come from the whole picture not just what he reads off of his handy dandy teleprompter everyday. You have to look at what he truly believes and he has come out and said these things over and over in the past. You just can't erase them.

And why is Fox News, Glenn Beck ect. bring brought up. I never said I got my info from that. I draw my own conclusions.

The video I was referring to was from 2003 I think and I admitted referring to Kenya was a cheap shot (but only because it's so easy given the level of hysteria about this president).

Want to talk health insurance? Ok. Tomorrow you magically wake up as an insurance executive. You're paid a healthy salary and a tasty bonus. If you're smart and I'm sure you are how long will it take for you to start categorizing your customers like this?

1. Assets - people that represent a profit - their premiums exceeds their claims.

2. Liabilities - people you're losing money on but it might only be temporary. Maybe they've got an accident prone kid or they're just experiencing a run of bad luck.

3. OMG LIABILITIES - we're talking serious illnesses here that are going to really hurt the bottom line.

How long will it take you to grow some calluses and learn to "do what's right" for your company, your shareholders and your family?

Think you have health insurance? You have a health agreement that either side can cancel at any time for any reason.

[Bob Dog]

:

[mo_feezy]

Why are we suddenly talking about his birth certificate? I'm talking about health care right now. The video I posted has nothing to do with questioning his citizenship.

A long time ago? It was 2007 for God sakes.

Are you guys blind to what Obama says himself and just amazed at how he says it? My judgments of him come from the whole picture not just what he reads off of his handy dandy teleprompter everyday. You have to look at what he truly believes and he has come out and said these things over and over in the past. You just can't erase them.

And why is Fox News, Glenn Beck ect. bring brought up. I never said I got my info from that. I draw my own conclusions.

The video was linked to a video about his birth certificate. That means that it was either posted by the same people, or watched by the same people.

These are fair things to bring up. I can discredit almost everything you have said so far. There is a group of about 30% of americans who agree with you. The media is making it look like it's a much bigger group, but it certainly isn't. Maybe you aren't a "birther," but most of the people who agree with you on this issue are.

It is important because it represents the problem with gathering faulty information from biased sources. You don't respond to any of the criticisms of anything you believe, you just respond to what you feel is an attack against you. You also refer to disagreeing with you as being "deceived" or "lied to" by the president which hints at something much deeper than disagreeing with his policy on health care. It's a fair game to play.

[Kal-El]

The video was linked to a video about his birth certificate. That means that it was either posted by the same people, or watched by the same people.

These are fair things to bring up. I can discredit almost everything you have said so far. There is a group of about 30% of americans who agree with you. The media is making it look like it's a much bigger group, but it certainly isn't. Maybe you aren't a "birther," but most of the people who agree with you on this issue are.


Again, nobody's talking about his birthplace and that topic as well as his race (which liberals can't seem to get over) have absolutely nothing to do with his policies and the fact that conservatives oppose those policies. Conservatives feel very strongly in upholding American values and the Constitution which is why we strongly oppose this radical systematic destruction of the United States and the principles she was founded upon. We love America and don't want another European country. What's wrong with that.


It is important because it represents the problem with gathering faulty information from biased sources. You don't respond to any of the criticisms of anything you believe, you just respond to what you feel is an attack against you. You also refer to disagreeing with you as being "deceived" or "lied to" by the president which hints at something much deeper than disagreeing with his policy on health care. It's a fair game to play.

I posted the video (please watch it since you clearly didn't) as a prime example of how Obama is currently DECEIVING Americans in what is his ultimate plan for America. The video of HIM saying the opposite of what he says he believes. How much clearer could it be? I'm not just throwing the word "deceived" around.

Again, he actually spells out how these gradual steps must first take place before total control is implemented (single payer). He knows that he can't just come and do it all at once. I can't make this stuff up. It's right there in front of you.

Don't believe for a second that all they want is a government option to compete with the current system.

BTW, I've never seen such a high % of liberals on a board. This is tough! :tongue:

After all, the breakdown in America is 40% conservative, 20% liberal, 40% moderate. About 60% of Americans strongly disappove of this proposed health care reform.

[PaidTimeOff]

Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

No, I haven't read the actual bill (and by admission, neither have you) but it's generally accepted that factcheck.org is a highly HIGHLY reputable source. They lean neither left nor right, nor up or down. They aren't funded by any outside sources or lobbyists (unlike many of our countries politicians). I'm honestly not going to sit around reading a 1000+ page bill that's going through congress (this is what we pay our state senators and representatives to do) and if you're telling me you really were going to read all of it, I'm sorry but I just don't believe you.

Seriously, go to the article, check out their sources. If they aren't reputable, come on here and explain why. They simply compiled the facts in a convenient and easy to access place. A TRUE no-spin zone, if you will. Don't go around ragging on people for not reading the bill when you yourself have not even gotten through it. "Do as I say not as I do" much?

[Malaya1221]

imagine what i go through on this site :tongue:

http://www.facebook.com/artnjocel1221?ref=profile#/pages/Socialism-Is-No-Joke/246605145124?ref=ts

[ChinoCharles]

Was there a lady on there that was claiming a swine flu shot was really a depopulation conspiracy?

Whackkkk jobbbsssss.

[Altitude]

imagine what i go through on this site :tongue:

http://www.facebook.com/artnjocel1221?ref=profile#/pages/Socialism-Is-No-Joke/246605145124?ref=ts

I wouldn't spend too much time at that site. Your IQ is likely to drop just from having the page up on your screen.

[JBougie]

Really guys? Really? Because I can find plenty of f'n nut jobs on liberal sites, too. J-F'N-C way to be 'tolerant' :rolleyes:

[JBougie]

because deception is the word of choice for the people implying that Obama is some sort of evil person (the antichrist, even).

de⋅cep⋅tion
  /dɪˈsɛpʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [di-sep-shuhn] Show IPA
Use deception in a Sentence
–noun
1. the act of deceiving; the state of being deceived.
2. something that deceives or is intended to deceive; fraud; artifice.

[JBougie]

No, I haven't read the actual bill (and by admission, neither have you) but it's generally accepted that factcheck.org is a highly HIGHLY reputable source. They lean neither left nor right, nor up or down. They aren't funded by any outside sources or lobbyists (unlike many of our countries politicians). I'm honestly not going to sit around reading a 1000+ page bill that's going through congress (this is what we pay our state senators and representatives to do) and if you're telling me you really were going to read all of it, I'm sorry but I just don't believe you.

Seriously, go to the article, check out their sources. If they aren't reputable, come on here and explain why. They simply compiled the facts in a convenient and easy to access place. A TRUE no-spin zone, if you will. Don't go around ragging on people for not reading the bill when you yourself have not even gotten through it. "Do as I say not as I do" much?

You have no reason to argue the subject after admitting that you didn't read it, and that you will just take the word of someone else.

You should run for congress - they seem to do the same thing.

[ChinoCharles]

There is no it. There is no bill. Hellloooooooo

[Altitude]

Really guys? Really? Because I can find plenty of f'n nut jobs on liberal sites, too. J-F'N-C way to be 'tolerant' :rolleyes:

LOL. Yes, there are plenty of f'n liberal nut job sites too and if you post a link to one I'll call it bullshit just like this one. By the way, calling for that site to be closed would be intolerant, calling it ridiculous bullshit is just stating an opinion. As much as I think it's a crackpot site, it has a right to exist.

[Bob Dog]

I took took look at that sight. It has something about a strawberry jam fetish and dead actors crossed with right wing world domination fantasies?
Altitude, I've got to tell you everytime I see your avatar, I can help but hearing all of your post in Meatwad's voice... and that is always a bad thing.

[Altitude]

Altitude, I've got to tell you everytime I see your avatar, I can help but hearing all of your post in Meatwad's voice... and that is always a bad thing.

I want candy! - M.C. Pee Pants

Well, to be honest I was getting tired of it so I'll probably change it soon. How about James Earl Jones?

[Bob Dog]

It would lend your posts a great deal of authority, I would hate the loss of Meatwad however, I meant to say not always a bad thing

[PaidTimeOff]

You have no reason to argue the subject after admitting that you didn't read it, and that you will just take the word of someone else.

You should run for congress - they seem to do the same thing.

Did you read it? No. Are you still arguing about it? Yes. FFS stop being a hypocrite. I pay taxes as well as you (probably) do, so I can argue anything I want. And while we're on the subject, I didn't even argue this way or that. All I did was provide a RESOURCE, and you're getting all huffy and puffy because you think the resource doesn't support your (I guess we can assume FALSE) claims.

Well I've got news for you, that website is not affiliated with any side. They have proven this on multiple occasions by correcting falsehoods perpetrated by liberals, republicans, or any other political ideology that has established itself.

You're not getting anywhere by telling me I should run for congress in a snarky way. This is one step short of blatant name-calling. Grow up and stick to the issues.

[PaidTimeOff]

I have not said I have read it (just clarifying :biggrin:)

Here's your quote, just to clarify. Take a step back, take a deep breath and come back when you have something to say that isn't full of unwarranted, and frankly hypocritical, flames.

[ChinoCharles]

Hug it out guys. :laugh:

I'm anxious to see if the left mobilizes for 2010 like they did for 2008. They certainly are content to watch the health care debate from the couch.

[SailDesign]

I'm anxious to see if the left mobilizes for 2010 like they did for 2008. They certainly are content to watch the health care debate from the couch.

Hmmmm.... does that really qualify as a "debate" at this stage? :smile:

[JBougie]

Did you read it? No. Are you still arguing about it? Yes. FFS stop being a hypocrite. I pay taxes as well as you (probably) do, so I can argue anything I want. And while we're on the subject, I didn't even argue this way or that. All I did was provide a RESOURCE, and you're getting all huffy and puffy because you think the resource doesn't support your (I guess we can assume FALSE) claims.

Well I've got news for you, that website is not affiliated with any side. They have proven this on multiple occasions by correcting falsehoods perpetrated by liberals, republicans, or any other political ideology that has established itself.

You're not getting anywhere by telling me I should run for congress in a snarky way. This is one step short of blatant name-calling. Grow up and stick to the issues.

1. I don't want it - I don't have to read anything to know I don't want it. I don't want it just simply because I will be forced to pay for it regardless if I use it or not. The only reason you SHOULD read it is if you're supporting it. Because you should know why you ARE supporting it and know that you're supporting it because it supports your ideals and you're beliefs. And you're right, I do pay taxes - $268 between federal and state per check alone, and that isn't including what my husband pays, I feel it and am reminded of it every week :laugh:

2. I don't care who makes it - it doesn't change the fact that you shouldn't just roll over and believe what you hear. That's the point I'm making - politicians, no matter what side they are on will lie to you if need be. I'm not a republican, and I'm not a democrat and I don't really care for either party :)

3. It's not name calling. It's me being a sarcastic smart ass, which I have a habit of doing and not really meaning for it to be taken as deeply as it often it. So I apologize for that - while I did mean it to be a sarcastic comment I didn't mean for it to truly offend.

[JBougie]

Here's your quote, just to clarify. Take a step back, take a deep breath and come back when you have something to say that isn't full of unwarranted, and frankly hypocritical, flames.

I don't have to read it. I don't support it. I don't NEED to know exact details of why I don't support it - just the basis of what it is makes me not support it.

I just don't think that anyone should be so sure of something when they don't know without a shadow of a doubt it is really something your ideals support. That's all I'm saying.

Just because I'm against it doesn't mean I think everyone should be - I just think that you shouldn't trust what some guy in Washington tells you... or any website for that matter. Sure it's a great start when collecting information but there has to be more ... that's all I'm saying.

I really don't consider that a flame. :iono:

[JBougie]

Hug it out guys. :laugh:

If anyone wants to drive to Minnesota, I'll hug it out with them. LOL

[Bob Dog]

Wait till your a little older have some serious medical expenses and get canceled, only to find your premiums have almost doubled with any other insurance company that will write you and that most of the reasons you would carry insurance for are considered preexisting conditions. Then you will start seeing with your wallet instead of through your running mouth. I suspect the real reason you go on and on is you enjoy the pleasure of being the center of attention.

[mo_feezy]

I don't have to read it. I don't support it. I don't NEED to know exact details of why I don't support it - just the basis of what it is makes me not support it.

I just don't think that anyone should be so sure of something when they don't know without a shadow of a doubt it is really something your ideals support. That's all I'm saying.
:
this is ridiculous. you should know exactly why you don't support it just the same as people who support it should know exactly why they support it.

otherwise you are only not supporting it because of what you heard about it (most likely by someone who has a vested interest in it not making it through congress)

if you are really against it because: 1. I don't want it - I don't have to read anything to know I don't want it. I don't want it just simply because I will be forced to pay for it regardless if I use it or not. The only reason you SHOULD read it is if you're supporting it. Because you should know why you ARE supporting it and know that you're supporting it because it supports your ideals and you're beliefs. And you're right, I do pay taxes - $268 between federal and state per check alone, and that isn't including what my husband pays, I feel it and am reminded of it every week

then you should be against medicare, public education, public bridges and roadways, etc.

is that the case?

[Malaya1221]

Was there a lady on there that was claiming a swine flu shot was really a depopulation conspiracy?

Whackkkk jobbbsssss.

yup! some posts are borderline dangerous and if you don't agree with their views then you're a troll! :laugh:

I wouldn't spend too much time at that site. Your IQ is likely to drop just from having the page up on your screen.

always try to know your opponent! :wink:

Hug it out guys. :laugh:


phuck you ari gould! :biggrin:

[JBougie]

this is ridiculous. you should know exactly why you don't support it just the same as people who support it should know exactly why they support it.

otherwise you are only not supporting it because of what you heard about it (most likely by someone who has a vested interest in it not making it through congress)

if you are really against it because:

then you should be against medicare, public education, public bridges and roadways, etc.

is that the case?

I do know exactly why I don't support it - the basis of what it stands for goes against what I believe in. I don't think anyone has a 'right' to insurance, and I don't think the government should be in control of health care. I have my ideals and they have theirs - on this issue, like so many others, I don't agree with them. I already said that ... twice, I believe.

Medicare - Partially, but really that is a whole 'nother topic in itself ... there needs to be tighter restrictions on it, and I should have the option of paying for it or not. If I don't want it, I shouldn't be forced to pay for it for other people. No offense, but outside of my friends/family I could give a shit less if you have medical coverage. For my friends/family I would sell everything I owned to make sure they were taken care of. As I would hope anyone else would do for theirs. I really feel that we as a society have gotten so far away from the 'let's help our own' and become such an entitlement society that we feel it's everyone else's job to make sure we are taken care of. I completely disagree.
Public education - I don't like public schools ... I am not 100% sure how I feel about the voucher program and things of that nature, but I think there should be some sort of choice for parents who want to send their children to private institutions to get a quality education without being forced to support the shit hole public schools. The voucher program I have heard has some issues to work out - but I don't have kids and I'm in college so it's not something that I am 100% interested in.
Infrastructure That is one of the 'necessary' taxes, IMO - however, it needs to be for roads and bridges ... no pork needs to be thrown into it for other frivolous items just to squeeze a bit more out of hard working Americans.


*correction* I don't agree with the majority of what our government does right now.

[mo_feezy]

So without reading it, you've decided that this bill puts the government in control of healthcare?

[elmo]

has anyone EVER see a program that the government runs work without putting strains on the already overburdened tax payer

[ChinoCharles]

Where is this perceived strain? Solution: don't look at the "tax" column on your paycheck. You won't miss it. :laugh:

PS: Rachel Maddow is now my hero.

[elmo]

Where is this perceived strain? Solution: don't look at the "tax" column on your paycheck. You won't miss it. :laugh:

PS: Rachel Maddow is now my hero.


at first i thought you were serious, was thinking you might want to get a mental evaluation before obamacare...

then you will have to wait in line so ling you will forget what you were there for in the first place

[ChinoCharles]

No, I'm serious. I'd just be happy if the wingers would stop wasting my money on pork projects and trips to Argentina. Spend it on roads, bridges and the 47 million uninsured.

[gokartride]

has anyone EVER see a program that the government runs work without putting strains on the already overburdened tax payerHappens every day.

[Bob Dog]

What I'm tired of is government subsidies to major corporations, banks, manufacturing and the leacherous healthcare industry, and porkies like new runways for airport in no traffic nowhereville. I mean wtf are they doing planting flowers in th middle of the interstates when people are dying for lack of healthcare. I'm also damn tired of sports stadiums and arenas getting subsidies. I don't hate sports, bu f--k me paying out taxes so someone else can make a profit on people watching a ball game.

[TLyttle]

"overburdened taxpayer"... That phrase, coming from the US, makes me giggle. Most countries have heavier taxes than the US; the taxes are applied in different forms, and in Canada (for instance) are usually "sin" taxes, ie, cigarettes and booze are heavily taxed, but not nearly as hard hit as, say, Norway. Having the US taxes get dumped straight into wars (2 of them, remember?) is a ridiculous burden in my mind, yet there are 47 million medically uninsured citizens there. I guess that makes sense to some...

[ChinoCharles]

I don't hate sports, bu f--k me paying out taxes so someone else can make a profit on people watching a ball game.

Now, in defense of subsidizing sports stadiums, the impact a new stadium has on a local economy is usually drastic. Cleveland has had three new stadiums in the last 20 years and without them, I might be living near a crater.

"overburdened taxpayer"... That phrase, coming from the US, makes me giggle. Most countries have heavier taxes than the US; the taxes are applied in different forms, and in Canada (for instance) are usually "sin" taxes, ie, cigarettes and booze are heavily taxed, but not nearly as hard hit as, say, Norway. Having the US taxes get dumped straight into wars (2 of them, remember?) is a ridiculous burden in my mind, yet there are 47 million medically uninsured citizens there. I guess that makes sense to some...

Agreed. Most of the nuts in this country don't know how good we have it, and they certainly don't understand how having it this good is screwing things up.

[Bob Dog]

I don't like paying taxes one bit, and I like a stripped down government, but some essentials seem best done in such a way that there is no profit motive. I would put under this heading, infrastructure, military(although there is all that juicy pork in subcontracting isn't there), police, disaster, and fire protection, and as world wide evidence demonstrates, healthcare.

[Bob Dog]

Perhaps it should be a crater, when students here in the rural south are using texts books so dated that the internet is mentioned in the future tense it seems to us a serious misuse of our tax money .

[elmo]

folks there is only 1 way in my sick little mind THE FAIR TAX, if you don't know what it is buy the book i don't even have time to explain it but in a nut shell you only pay taxes on products you buy that way EVERYONE pays


Oh by the way TLyttle we got sin taxes here to so don't feel special because you live in canada.

[RedRide]

What I'm tired of and totally disgusted about is the fact that the majority of our lawmakes are just coporate puppets. This is true for both side of the asile.

The is no real democracy. The lawmakers simply pass laws to benifit their bidggest financial contributors. It is governmen for, by, and of the corporations.

We would have real, sensible health care reform if it wasn't because of this.

[Bob Dog]

Our lives are bought and sold like medieval surfs and seems nobody has guts to face it: noone gets elected without being corporate moneys whore in this country:

of the sheeple
by the swine
for the wolves

money buys the legislature, and money buys the lawyers who make it possible for crimes to be committed by corporations and those of extreme wealth that a person ordinary means would spend their life in jail for.

But then again I guess its always been that way....

[ChinoCharles]

Well, I don't know a lot of average working-class people that bother running for office, either. Hard to complain when the sheep seem content in the pastures...

[Bob Dog]

Working class people can't afford to run for office and if they did big money would throw down if they suspected any real form of opposition.

[PaidTimeOff]

I don't have to read it. I don't support it. I don't NEED to know exact details of why I don't support it - just the basis of what it is makes me not support it.

I just don't think that anyone should be so sure of something when they don't know without a shadow of a doubt it is really something your ideals support. That's all I'm saying.

Just because I'm against it doesn't mean I think everyone should be - I just think that you shouldn't trust what some guy in Washington tells you... or any website for that matter. Sure it's a great start when collecting information but there has to be more ... that's all I'm saying.

I really don't consider that a flame. :iono:


Again, you quoted me posting up a resource, not taking a stand against or for this bill. Simply doing what you are now saying is a "great start," by providing information for people to look at. Insulted me for believing things other people are saying, accusing me of not reading the bill, not reading the bill yourself, and now stating that you don't need to read it to not support it...

If you haven't read the bill, then where did you get your information to come to a conclusion on it? Did you hear it on the news? in a website? Your parents? Some friend? How does any of this make sense to you? Do you not see the hypocrisy in your own accusations and statements? I'm sincerely asking. :confused:

[Kal-El]

I see there are people who actually believe there are 47 million American's who are so unfortunate not to be able to get health insurance. They are using this number to push their agenda.

According to the Census Bureau,

Of that 47 million, 38 percent of them (18 million) have personal incomes of more than $50,000 a year. This means that they can afford coverage, and choose not to purchase it.

Of that other 29 million uninsured, the biggest chunk of them aren't even US citizens. Their number is about 12.6 million, or 27 percent of the original '47 million uninsured' number. This could be a higher percentage, because many prominent think tanks place the number of illegal immigrants as high as 20 million, instead of the 12 or 13 million figure.

Of that remaining 16.4 million uninsured, 8 million are under the age of 18. If the parents of these young ones cannot afford to cover them either on their own family plans or independently, there are public insurance options already available for them but their parents have just not signed them up.

So that leaves us with 8.4 million uninsured, a figure less than 3 percent of the American population, and many of these are 18-20 somethings who choose not to purchase health coverage because, well, they think that they won't get sick! Health experts actually refer to this age group as the 'invincibles!' The remainder of this 8.4 million uninsured are low income and could easily be covered by either federal Medicare or state run Medicaid or some charity insurance programs, and they for whatever reason have chosen not to go and get signed up.



That's the breakdown folks, look it up yourself if you want.

It basically comes down to possibly destroying our health care system to cover illegal aliens at taxpayer's expense.

Don't get all of your info from Obama and the media that elected him!

Become informed.

[ChinoCharles]

Cite your sources.

[mo_feezy]

I'm a sociologist by trade, and I am positive the numbers you are posting are incorrect. the 47 million is AFTER accounting for undocumented immigrants, and because a person earns 50k a year doesn't mean very much if they are the only person in the household working, especially if their employer doesn't cover health insurance expenses.

Again, saying "according to the census bureau" does not count for much, considering that much has changed since the last time they officially did any actual data collection (that was during the CLINTON administration).

finally, when you say things like: "Don't get all of your info from Obama and the media that elected him!" you instantly lose ALL credibility with the rational few left in this country.

[churp]

Too bad ther is no rational few in the DC area! 2 to 4 year term limits...with no lifetime health and retirement benifits afterwards, would weed most of the idiots out in a few years.

[Altitude]

I consider the number of uninsured to be secondary to the primary issue which is cost. Even if we had 100% coverage in the private sector that still doesn't change the fact that getting sick or injured shouldn't result in bankruptcy or that insurance companies shouldn't be able to deny a claim or drop your coverage in favor of a profit. It's morally and ethically wrong is so many ways.

I find it so hypocritical that the conservatives and republicans who would otherwise be spouting about ethics, morality, family values and Christian beliefs are the ones trying to bring down this policy. A policy that would have a far greater impact on the health and wealth of families in this country than any scrap of a trickle down tax cut for the wealthy.

[ChinoCharles]

Altitude, the White House is going to repackage their message to echo the sentiment you just said. Expect a lot of talk about the "moral imperative" of health care reform in the coming weeks.

Also, if you need a laugh, you have to see this clip. Its brilliant.
http://blog.chinocharles.com/2009/08/barney-frank-lays-the-smack-down/

[Darb]

Also, if you need a laugh, you have to see this clip. Its brilliant.
http://blog.chinocharles.com/2009/08/barney-frank-lays-the-smack-down/

Awesome.

Also, it seems people need a refresher course on history...

[ChinoCharles]

The term "refresher" implies some previous understanding... :wink:

[Darb]

True.

(Sorry to re-invoke Godwin's Law.) It seems those who are quick to equate Obama to Hitler conveniently forget that some of the first prisoners of concentration camps were political opponents. Namely members of the KPD or the SPD, Germany's Communist and Social Democratic parties.

[mo_feezy]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKS0hW_-kvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRr5xA-K80

[Darb]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKS0hW_-kvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRr5xA-K80

For some reason the sound on either is broke.

[Kal-El]

Also, if you need a laugh, you have to see this clip. Its brilliant.
http://blog.chinocharles.com/2009/08/barney-frank-lays-the-smack-down/

I don't support the Hitler sentiments toward Obama but does anyone notice the difference in the acceptance of such attacks made of Bush but now with Obama it is totally unacceptable.

Why is there always a double standard between parties?

It's the same double standard that allowed liberals to protest the wars for 8 years (many of them violent) while peaceful conservative protests being conducted now are considered dangerous.

[mo_feezy]

allowed liberals to protest the wars for 8 years
are you serious? they made protesters go to "free speech zones" and people were arrested for anti-Bush t-shirts.

now we have people with assault rifles and signs designed to bastardize famous quotes in an obvious threat of violence towards the president, AT presidential events, and they aren't even arrested.


Originally Posted by mo_feezy View Post
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKS0hW_-kvA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcRr5xA-K80
For some reason the sound on either is broke.

it seems the first one has been removed. It was an Israeli man talking about how great the health care system is in Israel, and a protester shouts "heil hitler" to him and he shouts at her for yelling that at a jew. The second video is the woman who shouted it being interviewed. Claiming she believes in "biblical values" (apparently like yelling "heil hitler" at jews). Not sure why the sound wasn't working. it works for me. You should be able to find these clips from other sources, there was lots of buzz around this today.

[ChinoCharles]

No, see, there is no double standard. I don't care what American president it refers to. Its equally stupid either way.

Please don't post that garbage on these forums. I removed it for obvious reasons.

[Bob Dog]

I saw that 17 year old class president of my high school beaten bloody by Nixon's thugs for protesting an earlier war many years ago. At the time I was quite shocked. Peaceful conservtives perhaps like the NRA folks pulling out their pistols and shaking them at people. Kal-El you are not only adamant, but quite self deluded.

[elmo]

i am a member of the NRA and i really find it hard to believe and NRA member would point a gun at someone and NOT actually shoot them. (give me a source) the NRA members i know kinda like to keep a low profile but i don't think it would be wise to fuck with them

[Bob Dog]

I have real some good friends who are members and hunt with a guy whose a member myself, but there is a definite lunatic fringe in the organization, and a fair number of hot headed bully boys as well. You know as well as I do that a gun need not be pointed at someone to be used as an instrument of intimidation.

[TLyttle]

Frightening.....

[RedRide]

I have real some good friends who are members and hunt with a guy whose a member myself, but there is a definite lunatic fringe in the organization, and a fair number of hot headed bully boys as well. You know as well as I do that a gun need not be pointed at someone to be used as an instrument of intimidation.

Exactly.

BTW, I'm not an ARA member, nor do I currently own any guns although I have in the past.

However, I sincerly believe that if the police are the only ones to have guns, we are all in serious trouble!

[Bob Dog]

An unarmed populace with an armed govenment is an incipient police state, but a populace that out guns the powers of authority is incipient anarchy. I personally am not fond of guns. We hunt to control an over abundance garden eatting, accident causing deer, and secondarily to fill our freezers with fine, organic meat. I find gun sport, when separate from hunting to be loud, rude and annoying in proximity to any populated area. A gun is a tool like a chainsaw, it will do a certain job better than any other tool but it is a dangerous tool, and only fools play with them like they are toys. As to the NRA, they are basically a tool of the weapons industry and I want nothing to do with them.