Religious Question/Opinion

[Kaotic Lazagna]

*Disclaimer, please do NOT bash on any other religions. Believe what you believe in, and please do NOT impose your beliefs on others in this thread. I made this thread to ask for you guys' opinions. I would like this thread to remain open, so if you do not have anything "good" to say, please just don't post.*

Okay, so my gf has recently switched to Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) from Catholicism. Well, actually, it's her, her twin sister (also one of my best friends), and their eldest sister. Lately, my gf and I have been getting into debates over religion. For those who do not know SDA is a religion that strictly follows everything, and I mean EVERYTHING that the Bible says. Here's the thing, I feel that they are imposing their beliefs on me and my other friend (my gf's sis' bf who is Buddhist). I really don't know what religion I fall under, but I associate myself with Catholics.

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

I found it highly irritating when my gf said that "Catholicism is the anti-Christ." We all have different beliefs, and there are people who do not even believe in a heaven and hell. Who is to say that those who do not follow/believe in SDA will go to hell? I mean, with other religions, doesn't that mean that SDA will go to their version of hell?

To me, religion shouldn't put people in a place where they live everyday of their life in fear and limitations. Why would God/High-Being want His/Her people to live their life like that?

I know my thoughts were all over the place, but what is your opinion/thoughts?

[coheed]

If you couldnt tell by my sig Im buddhist, but that is beside the point. I think if there truly is a heaven, that the higher power will accept you as long as you make a genuine effort to devote to a religion. :iono:

[YarisSedan]

All i know that if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins that you are going to heaven. And there is a new testament and old testament. Some relegions still try to follow the old testament. And some religions base off the christianity bible but add or subtract some chapters. I belive really that good works and good people will be blessed but as long as you belive the good word then you will have no problem getting into heaven. The idea of following old testiment teachings and trying to live your life by a structure or code isnt the way God wanted you to run your life. As long as what you do honors him thats all he really wants.

IE helping someone in need without expecting anything in return. I am not really as religiouse as i used to be. And i do not know too much about seventh day adventisit. But i know a lot of thier teachings are not based on faith in Jesus alone is enough.

I find that the type of people who follow this religion are the same type of people that practice rituals. IE they always fold thier clothes in a particular order in a particular type of seprate drawers and hang thier clothes by type and by color. They always follow the same pattern almost obssively. Thinking that they have control of thier own lives and take comfort in it.

But things will never go as planned and you can never control your own life things happen and no one can live the perfect life no matter how hard they try to live it.

[YarisSedan]

Oh yeah one last thing i think 2 things really should be left alone on these forums are religion and politics only because no one can discuss them without starting a very heated argument or fights without someone being extremely offended or someone getting hurt. I have a feeling this thread will be locked very soon as more and more responses come in.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

If those two topics can be discussed civilly, I don't see why it would be closed.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

If you couldnt tell by my sig Im buddhist, but that is beside the point. I think if there truly is a heaven, that the higher power will accept you as long as you make a genuine effort to devote to a religion. :iono:

Exactly.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

All i know that if you believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins that you are going to heaven. And there is a new testament and old testament. Some relegions still try to follow the old testament. And some religions base off the christianity bible but add or subtract some chapters. I belive really that good works and good people will be blessed but as long as you belive the good word then you will have no problem getting into heaven. The idea of following old testiment teachings and trying to live your life by a structure or code isnt the way God wanted you to run your life. As long as what you do honors him thats all he really wants.

IE helping someone in need without expecting anything in return. I am not really as religiouse as i used to be. And i do not know too much about seventh day adventisit. But i know a lot of thier teachings are not based on faith in Jesus alone is enough.

I find that the type of people who follow this religion are the same type of people that practice rituals. IE they always fold thier clothes in a particular order in a particular type of seprate drawers and hang thier clothes by type and by color. They always follow the same pattern almost obssively. Thinking that they have control of thier own lives and take comfort in it.

But things will never go as planned and you can never control your own life things happen and no one can live the perfect life no matter how hard they try to live it.

Totally agree with the bolded statements. Seriously, I believe that if you're honestly, genuinely a good person, then your High Power has a spot for you in what ever place you believe in.

Even though I'm broke, I'll still donate money to charities. I don't expect anything in return, and a lot of the times, I'll deny putting my name on those "sponsor" paper thingies.

No ones perfect, and I highly doubt there's anyone out there that follows the Bible 100%, so does that mean they cannot get into Heaven? I don't think so, if they were good, then they have a spot.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Pretty good replies so far. Keep it up.

[jambo101]

When religious/rightious people start telling me that their god is the way and mine isnt they lose me right there as there is only one god and he isnt playing religious favorites, he's within all of us no matter what religion we ascribe or not ascribe to.ya just gotta stop and listen once in a while,he's there.SDA are a fundamentalist group and they will slowly but surely destroy your relationship with your gf,unless of course you join them.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

When religious/rightious people start telling me that their god is the way and mine isnt they lose me right there as there is only one god and he isnt playing religious favorites, he's within all of us no matter what religion we ascribe or not ascribe to.SDA are a fundamentalist group and they will slowly but surely destroy your relationship with your gf,unless of course you join them.

I'm totally sorry, but I will not change my beliefs for anyone. If that's the case, why can't they "join" me, I mean, they did believe in it prior to changing to SDA.

But I totally feel you on this. If God/High Power created humans, He/She would love them all the same, right? Doesn't matter what religion they are. Right?

[DefStarYaris]

I'm an atheist, but a very tolerant one. If someone else can find some kind of peace and happiness by following a religion then that's great. I hate when people try to tell me I'm wrong, or try to convert me. I don't go around trying to convince people to believe what I believe. I think religion should be personal, not something you should try to spread to as many people as you can.

[Ryu]

As far as religion goes, all the religion is the same to me. It is like looking at the moon from West and East, the name of the god might be different, the moon might looks different, but they are all correct about their belief.

The big religion was never created by the creator himselve, but the disciple gather everything he said and put them into a religion. All was created in different time and different area and their teaching is based on the people in those area. So some is more emphasis on love , and some is more emphasis on equality, but all is the same.

Just look at all the black, white, asian people, we all have red blood inside.
Also look at all the animal on earth, except snake and insect, they all have the same place of eyes, nose, mouth, ears as us. Even the quantity of them is exactly the same.

I am not trying to talk like religious, but even as big as elephant he has the same place and quantiy of those as us too, all of them couldn't be just conincidence.

No religion is better than the other, but the most importantly is to correct our own mind rather than just belief. I believe as long as you contribute to your belief and on the right direction, you can go back to Heaven.

[TinyGiant]

the SDA are very closely related to mormons and Jehovah's whitness. Another group that started with the prediction of when Christ would return (which the bible says no one will know the hour.) They also hold on to things in the bible (like the not eating pork) that later in the scriptures God said we could eat.

The jehovah's i spent all of last summer researching and debating with on my front porch. They came knocking one spring day and gave me some literature. I read it and took tons of notes on the literature and asked them to explain some blatantly skewed "truths" they had in the stuff they gave me.

They believe that Jesus is Michael the Arc angel .. not the son of God . where the bible clear says he is the son of God. they also change scripture around in their own bible .. very slight and subtle changes that make a world of difference.

they have all these things like they believe the gates of heaven closed in 1935..but cant show in the scriptures where it says that was going to happen..

they also believe that Jesus returned silently (after being wrong so many times about his return) they decided to say that he returned silently and is now in their headquaters in Brooklyn NY. And to believe everythin the watchtower says because is direct communication with Jesus .. which the bible clearly says when Jesus Returns every knee will bow and every ear will hear..

I had fun all summer with them. (in a good way) I was never impolite or anything. I wanted to keep them coming so we could discuss thier beliefs and have them explain how they got there.

The first time they came it was an older woman with another gentleman. I let them come three times before I started asking questions.. Give them a chance to see that i wasnt going to chase them off my porch. By the end of it they had elders and leaders of their church coming to my door trying to answer my questions.. The elder of their church couldnt answer any of my questions.. i stumped them pretty good... they stopped showing up. I think i'm probably on their do not visit list.. so that new converts on thier door to door stuff wont start to question why they believe what they believe.. lol

The JW believe in the Teachings of one MAN.. following the exact teachings of any man will certainly be problematic.. but combined with the demand for blind belief and not being able to question or study your beliefs is rediculous.

God gave us minds so we could use them. We are to keep our noses in the scripture and study them. God wants us to be able to spot deceit at the drop of a hat. If someone.. even my own pastor of my church says something that i think is off.. i'll do some research on it and make sure its on the level.. if its not i'll chat with him about it and see what i'm missing or maybe he'l see what he's missing.


what defstar said is somewhat true. the religion is personal not something you should spread.. the personal part. (i'd think you'd be an agnostic rather than an athiest.. you dont necessarily belive there isnt a god or pont to religion.. you just dont believe in anything)

Christianity grabbed ahold of a modernist perspective. That Christians are supposed to make everyone believe and witness to everyone till their blue in the face and everyone starts avoiding them like amway salesmen.. lol this is not the case. Our jobs as christians is to love one another, and be respectful to others and be the best example of Christ's love and compassion that we can be. God is the one that does the moving of ones heart. If he uses me to point someone in his direction, i'll take hold of it. But I personally try not to cram my beliefs down anyones throat... thats not what its about.
Jesus said the Greatest comandment is love... One thing that I've always said in regards to religions that make huge claims on doing good works or like the SDA who say you have to follow everything to the letter (even if its not still a current biblical law) to go to heaven.. Look at the theif that was on the cross next to Christ.. He told Christ that he believed that he was the son of God and Jesus said today you will be in heaven. He didnt say.. oh well dir .. do 10 hail mary's or sir have you been baptized? Did you ever attend church on a sunday? lol ... Jesus granted him entrance to heaven on his beliefe and Faith that Jesus Christ is God. The one point that Jesus was trying to make.. some dirty theif on a cross understood.

I try to live in a respectful and loving way toward others and help out as much as i can.. if people ask me whats different (which i do get that question) I let them know .. but its not my job to cram it down anyones throat. But if you come to me with a "truth" you better be able to defend it and prove how you came to that truth.. because i love to debate :) I wish the JW would still come to the door.. and maybe they will this summer. I had fun talking with them..it was funny the few times that they started getting frustrated and looking to the elder they brought and saying "is this really what the scripture is saying" and the elder also being stumped saying "we'll have to look at this later" then avoiding that question for the rest of the summer .. lol its sad they go door to door making claims that christians are apostate and trying to use the bible to prove thier points when even their own interlinear bible shows the flaws in the text they teach (interlinear is a bible that has the original greek translated word for word and then the translation of the bible you are reading.. its very easy to find issues or changes in the point when you can check it to the actual greek.
anywho.. lol i could chat on this all day ..

do some research on the SDA and DO NOT BE AFRIAD to ask questions. Its perfectly fine to have questions. Also check the scriptures and make sure that they are on the level. Never follow anything or anyone without testing it and making sure its fact. any group that requires you to believe what they say with out question and denys you the ability to research it is probably a cult of sorts. The JW arent allowed to have the internet or read any literature not approved by the church and elders.. so that they wont have reason to question... they told me to have an open mind and read their literature .. but when i did the same to them they said they couldnt take it... so i told them I also couldn't take their literature until they gave me the same respect and courtesy to take mine and research my points.

just be careful :)

[detroiter]

To keep it as short and as simple has possible, this is what Steven Segal said about religion...and it really does make sense.


"We all trying to get to the same place, just from a different road"




I would say personally, that I am a hybrid religious person. I believe in many Catholic ideals and teachings such as afterlife, etc...but I also believe in Buddhist teachings from the Lotus Sutra. I never once pushed my beliefs on anyone but I'll share them with someone if they are interested in hearing them. I try to promote living a good life and enjoying it, why live a life of torment and unhappiness? There obviously is no such thing as a life without pain or a life of total comfort, but why not live life to the max and enjoy it each day? I used to go to these Buddhist meetings from a branch called the SGI or Sokka Gakkai. Pretty much a Buddhist branch that started in Japan centuries ago and taught from the Lotus Sutra, pretty much what they consider the O.G Shakyamuni's highest teachings.

It's kind of like a dinner buffet. You can take some stuff and leave the stuff you don't want. Yeah I don't agree with 100% of what they teach but the parts like helping others in need, you reap what you sow, etc...there's no harm in taking that knowledge with you. Things like that, everyone can benefit from regardless of religion or non-religion. So I'd say I'm Catholic at heart but with an open mind to what else is around me. My eyes are open and my mind isn't closed. I've always figured too is that why should I fear Jesus and God like so many Christians try to imply is the only way to view them? If they are so loving, which I believe, then you should treat them as best friends. You wouldn't have a best friend that's in your life daily, that your scared of and live in fear of all the time, would you?

Overall, I think everyone should be able to think what they like. I'm sorry that your going through what you are. I don't think that it's really fair to you to be pushed on like that. That's kind of one reason I don't really associate much with anyone from church or things like that because I feel like they are watching me all the time if we are hanging out, judging me on what I do. I want to be able to be myself and have fun without worrying about my every step being watched incase I do something "non Christianlike".

Just be yourself and believe what you believe man...

[TinyGiant]

To keep it as short and as simple has possible, this is what Steven Segal said about religion...and it really does make sense.


"We all trying to get to the same place, just from a different road"

of course he would say that.. hes a buddhist

[TinyGiant]

it seems rather ludicrous to me to say that all religions are the same when all religions contradict each other. You cant say that hindu is the the same as Christianity when Christianity is monotheistic and hindu is polytheistic.. thats like saying that all keys will unlock one specific lock.

[detroiter]

I think what he was getting at with that comment is that religiously speaking, everyones trying to be happy. Some just do it different then others.

[eTiMaGo]

yeah if you look through all the "stories", the roots of all religions are more or less the same, the 10 commandments, more or less basic guidelines to a successful and peaceful civilization

and all those can be condensed to the even more simple:

"be excellent to each other"

Personally I'm not a religious person. I can understand the reasons for religion, there are times in my life where it would have been good to have the comfort of knowing there's something else beyond this life, some guardian angel or something... And those who cram their beliefs down others throats, I won't even comment on that.

Is there a God, is there not? I'm in no hurry to find out... But like I mentioned before there's just some things in my life that made me go hmmmm,what if?

So, Lazandro, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, it's gotta be real uncomfortable, people can be truly blinded by faith...

I'm sure there's a passage somewhere in the Bible that says you should respect the beliefs of others... Find it, and what can she say? :biggrin:

[MadMax]

A great discussion, and I applaud everyone who has positively contributed to it. So far it has remained very civil, and I hope that proves to the moderators that a lot of people in this forum can act as adults even while discussing contentious issues.

As for this situation, I agree that if you believe you lead a good life and do the right things, you should find the reward you expect once you life is over. However, one thing I have always said is never confuse faith (your beliefs) with religion (an organization whose members more or less follows certain beliefs). Religion has been the source of a lot of good and bad things in history, but many times it is used as justification for other desires.

My bottom line has always been to enjoy life, because it is a very short journey...

Cheers! M2

[GeneW]

Okay, so my gf has recently switched to Seventh Day Adventist (SDA) from Catholicism. Well, actually, it's her, her twin sister (also one of my best friends), and their eldest sister. Lately, my gf and I have been getting into debates over religion.

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

I found it highly irritating when my gf said that "Catholicism is the anti-Christ." We all have different beliefs, and there are people who do not even believe in a heaven and hell. Who is to say that those who do not follow/believe in SDA will go to hell? I mean, with other religions, doesn't that mean that SDA will go to their version of hell?

To me, religion shouldn't put people in a place where they live everyday of their life in fear and limitations. Why would God/High-Being want His/Her people to live their life like that?

I know my thoughts were all over the place, but what is your opinion/thoughts?

Many many people fear God. They express their devotion to Him by hewing to Biblical based laws. There is nothing wrong with fearing God.

This is gonna sound a bit harsh, but you might want to start letting go of her.

Imagine if you two permanently hooked up and had kids. How would they be raised? Your way or her way? She won't tolerate "Luke Warm" you know.

What about your diet, home life and so on? If it irritates you know how will it feel if you two marry?

The question you ought to be asking yourself is where this is all going to go in the future. I think you need to face the fact that you two are going to part the ways, probably sooner than later.

That you are asking us our opinion on the subject shows that you're seeking some sort of consensus for yourself. In the end you're going to have to hash this out yourself, and I think if you are going to be true to yourself you're going to conclude that... God works in mysterious ways.


I serve Him through my Works and Faith. I follow the 10 commandments pretty well. It's not hard to do, they're not a heavy burden and more often than not they simplify life greatly.

I set before myself the task of understanding His creation. To me the truth is a precious thing, but a slippery thing. You never really are certain what is going on in the world. You have to be ready to improvise, adapt and overcome, at any moment.

I think of God as a bit of a practical joker - I think He speaks with irony as well as emphatically. He also plays very rough at times. I realize that this may seem blasphemous but I think not - a personal relationship with God is... personal.

Gene

[TinyGiant]

there is truth in that for sure there is a seperation between religion and faith. There are plenty of catholics out there who dont believe in praying to mary.. but still attend catholic services .. some people have minor disconnects with their church.. unfortuneately you'll never find a perfect church.. but when looking look for one that challenges you, has a heart for community and helping the poor, sick, elderly. Churches that give sugar coated sermons arent challenging you and wont inspire spititual growth. The whole point of church is for fellowship and spiritial growth and worship or praises to God :)

[TinyGiant]

Many many people fear God. They express their devotion to Him by hewing to Biblical based laws. There is nothing wrong with fearing God.

This is gonna sound a bit harsh, but you might want to start letting go of her.

Imagine if you two permanently hooked up and had kids. How would they be raised? Your way or her way? She won't tolerate "Luke Warm" you know.

What about your diet, home life and so on? If it irritates you know how will it feel if you two marry?

The question you ought to be asking yourself is where this is all going to go in the future. I think you need to face the fact that you two are going to part the ways, probably sooner than later.

That you are asking us our opinion on the subject shows that you're seeking some sort of consensus for yourself. In the end you're going to have to hash this out yourself, and I think if you are going to be true to yourself you're going to conclude that... God works in mysterious ways.


I serve Him through my Works and Faith. I follow the 10 commandments pretty well. It's not hard to do, they're not a heavy burden and more often than not they simplify life greatly.

I set before myself the task of understanding His creation. To me the truth is a precious thing, but a slippery thing. You never really are certain what is going on in the world. You have to be ready to improvise, adapt and overcome, at any moment.

I think of God as a bit of a practical joker - I think He speaks with irony as well as emphatically. He also plays very rough at times. I realize that this may seem blasphemous but I think not - a personal relationship with God is... personal.

Gene
:thumbsup:


there is scripture pertaining to this very problem .. about being unequally yoked .. meaning be careful connecting with people who hold very different beliefs and outlooks. Chances are you'll bicker about things now and continue to bicker about them forever.. until it turns into bitterness and remorse and you'll end up breaking up anywho..
there is enough divorce in the world.. we dont need to add to it.

it does seem harsh too .. but when i was looking for wife or girlfriend or whatever I had 2-3 main requirements.. First off . she'd have to also be a Christian and second/thirldly NO SMOKERS and no crazy drunk partiers lol..
smoking is nasty and i know it would be a source of tension. so most times if i knew someone was a smoker/drinker and not on the same page spiritually i didnt bother pursuing .. which I'm glad because I know it probably saved me/others from unneeded stress and heartache.

[GeneW]

it does seem harsh too .. but when i was looking for wife or girlfriend or whatever I had 2-3 main requirements.. First off . she'd have to also be a Christian and second/thirldly NO SMOKERS and no crazy drunk partiers lol..
smoking is nasty and i know it would be a source of tension. so most times if i knew someone was a smoker/drinker and not on the same page spiritually i didnt bother pursuing .. which I'm glad because I know it probably saved me/others from unneeded stress and heartache.

This is being prudent and shows the value of Biblical ideas. People are very difficult to change, even when they want to change themselves.

I used to hear that "opposites attract". That's probably true, but being opposites does not keep your together.

Gene

[supmet]

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

I found it highly irritating when my gf said that "Catholicism is the anti-Christ." We all have different beliefs, and there are people who do not even believe in a heaven and hell. Who is to say that those who do not follow/believe in SDA will go to hell? I mean, with other religions, doesn't that mean that SDA will go to their version of hell?

The whole works vs faith thing is pretty much summed up in ephesians 4:8-9

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Pretty much that says to me good works comes after faith, not the other way around.

My problem with the bashing on SDA, is this. 2 Timothy 3:16 - "ALL SCRIPTURE is god-breathed and useful for training, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness". Now the whole idea behind the bible is that god controlled the canonical meetings, to decide which books would be in the bible. Now the previous verse from timothy, would tell me, that any book that GOD decided to put into HIS bible, would only contain useful, pertinent scriptures, and we should follow EVERYTHING in the bible... One hallucinatory dream by peter negates the entire old testament? A dream that very conveniently greatly reduced tensions between jews and gentiles in the early christian church?? The dream only mentions food products, and that somehow overturns half of the bible?

As for catholics, the whole praying to mary, and calling her the "co-redemtrix of the world" is ludicrous. Talk about something that isn't in the bible. That and the fact the entire church blackmailed its followers through the sale of indulgences. St. Peter's Basilica was built solely on money stolen from catholic people through this false teaching. The catholic church gave up on indulgences after luther and the reformation, but they still have most of the money to this day. They are one of the richest organizations in the world, and they let their parishes close, rather than selling paintings they have stored under the vatican. Oh, and there is nothing in the bible saying pastors/preachers/fathers/church leaders have to be celibate, and that one is kinda coming back to bite the catholic church in the ass..

As for heaven/hell, from the bible, the only way into heaven is believing that jesus died for your sins, and is your savior. Some people from every religion believe this, and there are people from every religion who don't believe this. The bible is pretty clear though, that there is no other back doors into heaven.


As for me, I'll take none of it thanks. Religion is the greatest mind control ever created. It makes use of people's fear of death, which is without question the greatest fear any person has(public speaking ain't got nothin)..

Anyways, for the hell of it. How would you all feel about your kind loving God, had you been born in china, wait no too easy, how about if you had been born on an island only inhabited by headhunting tribesman. You spend your whole life doing good, you never stole, killed, raped, or in anyway hurt another person. Unfortunately nobody on the island has heard of god, or christianity. Are you doomed to burn in the eternal fires of hell?? If yes, then please explain how the omnipotent god, creator of the universe, who "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"(1st Timothy 2:4) was unable to satiate his needs. If no, then please explain how I get to heaven without believing in Jesus.

[KCALB SIRAY]

When religious/rightious people start telling me that their god is the way and mine isnt they lose me right there as there is only one god and he isnt playing religious favorites, he's within all of us no matter what religion we ascribe or not ascribe to.ya just gotta stop and listen once in a while,he's there.SDA are a fundamentalist group and they will slowly but surely destroy your relationship with your gf,unless of course you join them.
I can't believe I'm agreeing with on this, but hey, what the hell. He is right, 100%.
yeah if you look through all the "stories", the roots of all religions are more or less the same, the 10 commandments, more or less basic guidelines to a successful and peaceful civilization

and all those can be condensed to the even more simple:

"be excellent to each other"

Personally I'm not a religious person. I can understand the reasons for religion, there are times in my life where it would have been good to have the comfort of knowing there's something else beyond this life, some guardian angel or something... And those who cram their beliefs down others throats, I won't even comment on that.

Is there a God, is there not? I'm in no hurry to find out... But like I mentioned before there's just some things in my life that made me go hmmmm,what if?

So, Lazandro, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, it's gotta be real uncomfortable, people can be truly blinded by faith...

I'm sure there's a passage somewhere in the Bible that says you should respect the beliefs of others... Find it, and what can she say? :biggrin:

Did you just quote Bill and Ted?


Anywho Laz, I'd like to sit here for an hour and go through the front and back door of all religions and the Bible, but to save you time, I'll throw this out to you. Following the Bible to its entirety requires you to take the good and the bad. If it's following the path or just falling off it, it needs to be dealt with. Not sure if SDA teaches this, but it's not always a "keep smiling" situation in every book of the Bible. Soooo, my advice is to follow what you know and believe, not what someone wants you to believe. I think you already know what you want to do in this case, and it does not mean that your relationship is going to suffer, it just means you are going to have to work at respecting each other.

[eTiMaGo]

Did you just quote Bill and Ted?



You cannot deny that that one phrase so well summarizes most of the 10 commandments and their equivalents in other religions... :biggrin:

[DefStarYaris]

Man, I would so join a Bill and Ted centered church.

[coheed]

of course he would say that.. hes a buddhist

What does being buddhist have to do with him saying that? Cause we buddhist arent trying to get to a promised land, we try to reach a state of complete spiritual knowledge, or enlightenment.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

As far as religion goes, all the religion is the same to me. It is like looking at the moon from West and East, the name of the god might be different, the moon might looks different, but they are all correct about their belief.

The big religion was never created by the creator himselve, but the disciple gather everything he said and put them into a religion. All was created in different time and different area and their teaching is based on the people in those area. So some is more emphasis on love , and some is more emphasis on equality, but all is the same.

Just look at all the black, white, asian people, we all have red blood inside.
Also look at all the animal on earth, except snake and insect, they all have the same place of eyes, nose, mouth, ears as us. Even the quantity of them is exactly the same.

I am not trying to talk like religious, but even as big as elephant he has the same place and quantiy of those as us too, all of them couldn't be just conincidence.

No religion is better than the other, but the most importantly is to correct our own mind rather than just belief. I believe as long as you contribute to your belief and on the right direction, you can go back to Heaven.

Really tho. I respect every religion out there as long as they do not come to me and try to stuff their beliefs down my throat. I mean, you do what you "gotta" do in your religion, right? Just be respectful of others'.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Tiny, I enjoyed your first post tremendously. I did not know about that about the JW, that they do not believe that Jesus is the son of God. That may be something I'll talk to my gf about since her mom is a JW.

I think people can "spread" their religion, but by this, I mean educate others. In a way, this is what all of you are doing. You guys are teaching me about what you guys believe. Totally fine with me, and I enjoy learning about other religions. You guys are not kicking me down, and pouring oil, errrr, your beliefs down my mouth (sorry, I just watch TFATF again :laugh:). Please continue to educate.

And I totally agree with your last sentence. I respect that my gf and them are SDA's, and I don't really have a problem with it, other than the fact that I don't feel that they are respecting me or other people who are not SDA. I mean, come on, they believe that Catholicism is the anti-Christ.

On that note, the Bible says to not be judgmental, right? Then isn't what they're doing, calling Catholicism the "anti-Christ" being judgmental?

Thank you very much Tiny, I appreciate you posting.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I will get back to this a bit later (left off at Tiny's and starting with Detroiter). I have to take my mom out to places (she only gets out when I'm back).

[cali yaris]

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

[cali yaris]

one more thing.... one of my very BEST friends is an Atheist, married to a Fundamentalist Christian wife.

They ADORE each other, married over 10 years -- they simply let each other co-exist on this subject, since they know they will never come to agreement on it.

Encouraging and inspiring, I think!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

hehe, my mom wants to eat first before going out, so on with reading what others have replied.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

To keep it as short and as simple has possible, this is what Steven Segal said about religion...and it really does make sense.


"We all trying to get to the same place, just from a different road"




I would say personally, that I am a hybrid religious person. I believe in many Catholic ideals and teachings such as afterlife, etc...but I also believe in Buddhist teachings from the Lotus Sutra. I never once pushed my beliefs on anyone but I'll share them with someone if they are interested in hearing them. I try to promote living a good life and enjoying it, why live a life of torment and unhappiness? There obviously is no such thing as a life without pain or a life of total comfort, but why not live life to the max and enjoy it each day? I used to go to these Buddhist meetings from a branch called the SGI or Sokka Gakkai. Pretty much a Buddhist branch that started in Japan centuries ago and taught from the Lotus Sutra, pretty much what they consider the O.G Shakyamuni's highest teachings.

It's kind of like a dinner buffet. You can take some stuff and leave the stuff you don't want. Yeah I don't agree with 100% of what they teach but the parts like helping others in need, you reap what you sow, etc...there's no harm in taking that knowledge with you. Things like that, everyone can benefit from regardless of religion or non-religion. So I'd say I'm Catholic at heart but with an open mind to what else is around me. My eyes are open and my mind isn't closed. I've always figured too is that why should I fear Jesus and God like so many Christians try to imply is the only way to view them? If they are so loving, which I believe, then you should treat them as best friends. You wouldn't have a best friend that's in your life daily, that your scared of and live in fear of all the time, would you?

Overall, I think everyone should be able to think what they like. I'm sorry that your going through what you are. I don't think that it's really fair to you to be pushed on like that. That's kind of one reason I don't really associate much with anyone from church or things like that because I feel like they are watching me all the time if we are hanging out, judging me on what I do. I want to be able to be myself and have fun without worrying about my every step being watched incase I do something "non Christianlike".

Just be yourself and believe what you believe man...

I'm very much like you.

And exactly, if you believe that your High Power created people, why would He/She/It want us to live in fear? I think I said this already, not sure.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

yeah if you look through all the "stories", the roots of all religions are more or less the same, the 10 commandments, more or less basic guidelines to a successful and peaceful civilization

and all those can be condensed to the even more simple:

"be excellent to each other"

Personally I'm not a religious person. I can understand the reasons for religion, there are times in my life where it would have been good to have the comfort of knowing there's something else beyond this life, some guardian angel or something... And those who cram their beliefs down others throats, I won't even comment on that.

Is there a God, is there not? I'm in no hurry to find out... But like I mentioned before there's just some things in my life that made me go hmmmm,what if?

So, Lazandro, I'm really sorry to hear about your situation, it's gotta be real uncomfortable, people can be truly blinded by faith...

I'm sure there's a passage somewhere in the Bible that says you should respect the beliefs of others... Find it, and what can she say? :biggrin:

I keep bringing that up, and she keeps saying that they're doing their part as being SDA to promote it. Doesn't make sense to me :iono:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

A great discussion, and I applaud everyone who has positively contributed to it. So far it has remained very civil, and I hope that proves to the moderators that a lot of people in this forum can act as adults even while discussing contentious issues.

As for this situation, I agree that if you believe you lead a good life and do the right things, you should find the reward you expect once you life is over. However, one thing I have always said is never confuse faith (your beliefs) with religion (an organization whose members more or less follows certain beliefs). Religion has been the source of a lot of good and bad things in history, but many times it is used as justification for other desires.

My bottom line has always been to enjoy life, because it is a very short journey...

Cheers! M2

That's what I'm saying, but my gf (and them) keep saying, "You know, the road to Heaven is a narrow and hard one."

And again, I respect that that is her belief, but it is not mine.

[supmet]

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Many many people fear God. They express their devotion to Him by hewing to Biblical based laws. There is nothing wrong with fearing God.

This is gonna sound a bit harsh, but you might want to start letting go of her.

Imagine if you two permanently hooked up and had kids. How would they be raised? Your way or her way? She won't tolerate "Luke Warm" you know.

What about your diet, home life and so on? If it irritates you know how will it feel if you two marry?

The question you ought to be asking yourself is where this is all going to go in the future. I think you need to face the fact that you two are going to part the ways, probably sooner than later.

That you are asking us our opinion on the subject shows that you're seeking some sort of consensus for yourself. In the end you're going to have to hash this out yourself, and I think if you are going to be true to yourself you're going to conclude that... God works in mysterious ways.


I serve Him through my Works and Faith. I follow the 10 commandments pretty well. It's not hard to do, they're not a heavy burden and more often than not they simplify life greatly.

I set before myself the task of understanding His creation. To me the truth is a precious thing, but a slippery thing. You never really are certain what is going on in the world. You have to be ready to improvise, adapt and overcome, at any moment.

I think of God as a bit of a practical joker - I think He speaks with irony as well as emphatically. He also plays very rough at times. I realize that this may seem blasphemous but I think not - a personal relationship with God is... personal.

Gene

Yeah, the 10 Commandments are basically this (Cliffnotes style): Love and believe in Jesus/God, and love your family and others, right? That, I believe, I do on a daily basis. I just don't necessarily follow every thing that the Bible says.

But yeah, I thought about what you stated first, and if she cannot learn to respect my beliefs and co-exist with me, then I'm just going to go.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

The whole works vs faith thing is pretty much summed up in ephesians 4:8-9

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Pretty much that says to me good works comes after faith, not the other way around.

My problem with the bashing on SDA, is this. 2 Timothy 3:16 - "ALL SCRIPTURE is god-breathed and useful for training, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness". Now the whole idea behind the bible is that god controlled the canonical meetings, to decide which books would be in the bible. Now the previous verse from timothy, would tell me, that any book that GOD decided to put into HIS bible, would only contain useful, pertinent scriptures, and we should follow EVERYTHING in the bible... One hallucinatory dream by peter negates the entire old testament? A dream that very conveniently greatly reduced tensions between jews and gentiles in the early christian church?? The dream only mentions food products, and that somehow overturns half of the bible?

As for catholics, the whole praying to mary, and calling her the "co-redemtrix of the world" is ludicrous. Talk about something that isn't in the bible. That and the fact the entire church blackmailed its followers through the sale of indulgences. St. Peter's Basilica was built solely on money stolen from catholic people through this false teaching. The catholic church gave up on indulgences after luther and the reformation, but they still have most of the money to this day. They are one of the richest organizations in the world, and they let their parishes close, rather than selling paintings they have stored under the vatican. Oh, and there is nothing in the bible saying pastors/preachers/fathers/church leaders have to be celibate, and that one is kinda coming back to bite the catholic church in the ass..

As for heaven/hell, from the bible, the only way into heaven is believing that jesus died for your sins, and is your savior. Some people from every religion believe this, and there are people from every religion who don't believe this. The bible is pretty clear though, that there is no other back doors into heaven.


As for me, I'll take none of it thanks. Religion is the greatest mind control ever created. It makes use of people's fear of death, which is without question the greatest fear any person has(public speaking ain't got nothin)..

Anyways, for the hell of it. How would you all feel about your kind loving God, had you been born in china, wait no too easy, how about if you had been born on an island only inhabited by headhunting tribesman. You spend your whole life doing good, you never stole, killed, raped, or in anyway hurt another person. Unfortunately nobody on the island has heard of god, or christianity. Are you doomed to burn in the eternal fires of hell?? If yes, then please explain how the omnipotent god, creator of the universe, who "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"(1st Timothy 2:4) was unable to satiate his needs. If no, then please explain how I get to heaven without believing in Jesus.

Instead of calling something ludicrous, please just say it's something you don't believe in or it's something that does not make sense to you.

I think the same thing can be said about SDA (money topic). I mean, SDA requires their followers to pay/give 10% of their income to the church. Now, I'm sorry, but that is WAY more than how much I know people in my Church donate. To me, I believe that a church should accept donations and not mandate anything to be given.

Now, for the Heaven topic, if that is the case and it says that in the Bible, I wonder why my gf and them are so strict about doing the other many things that the Bible says since "it will get them into Heaven."

hahaha, I actually thought about that before, that religion is here to control people and make them live in fear. But I try not to.

I personally won't think someone is going to hell if they do not believe in it in the first place (going along with your tribe example).

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I can't believe I'm agreeing with on this, but hey, what the hell. He is right, 100%.


Did you just quote Bill and Ted?


Anywho Laz, I'd like to sit here for an hour and go through the front and back door of all religions and the Bible, but to save you time, I'll throw this out to you. Following the Bible to its entirety requires you to take the good and the bad. If it's following the path or just falling off it, it needs to be dealt with. Not sure if SDA teaches this, but it's not always a "keep smiling" situation in every book of the Bible. Soooo, my advice is to follow what you know and believe, not what someone wants you to believe. I think you already know what you want to do in this case, and it does not mean that your relationship is going to suffer, it just means you are going to have to work at respecting each other.

I respect her, but I'm still waiting for them to respect other people's beliefs. Thanks Mike.

[supmet]

Instead of calling something ludicrous, please just say it's something you don't believe in or it's something that does not make sense to you.

I think the same thing can be said about SDA (money topic). I mean, SDA requires their followers to pay/give 10% of their income to the church. Now, I'm sorry, but that is WAY more than how much I know people in my Church donate. To me, I believe that a church should accept donations and not mandate anything to be given.

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

[Kaotic Lazagna]

ok i tried very hard to avoid this thread , but i guess im weak and i will say something that might not sit well with others, but please remember im not trying to say that your beliefs are not good or that you are inferior or anything like that. in my opinion RELIGION is not Faith/Spirituality, for me RELIGION is a form of control invented by humans to control each other. The fact that you believe in a higher power does not make you gullible or inferior to others , following blindly some stories told and created by humans does, and that what RELIGION is just a human interpretation of occurrences and situations and how to deal with them. You know why Jews and Muslims don't eat pork; and not the reason that it is a filthy animal or that it is somehow sinful, it is because in the ancient times waaaaay before fridges the Jews and Muslims (who are the same people btw in my eyes) had a party in the middle of the desert and the meat they had at this party happened to be pork. Now what happens to meat when you leave it in the sun too long , it goes bad. So the partying people ate this spoiled meat and got sick and died. They took this as God's punishment and stopped eating pork and it stayed with them. So all religion is really just another form of control over the society, yes some of it is great like the No killing and stealing part (yet we still do it anyways), it provides moral guidelines yes but i seriously doubt when you die that when you stand in front of the Maker he/she/it gonna ask you "Lazandro did you have bacon for breakfast, if you did i can't let you in bro". Before you do anything that you might regret ask your gf why she switched ,what is she scared of that she needs to follow every rule. God doesn't care if you eat this or that ,GOD put all this food and beautiful things on this planet for us to use and all GOD cares about is whether we are good people. Religion does , Karl Marx once said that Religion is the opiate of the masses


You are free to believe what you want , but you are also free to question other's interpretations. Religion is the root of many conflicts on this planet and it looks like you are heading for one yourself (not by choice,but still you are heading there). Correct me if im wrong but we all believe in the same GOD , the only difference between different religions is the interpretation of what GOD wants us to do. My advice is talk to your gf and ask her why is she unhappy

LOL, that was funny.

My gf isn't unhappy, she is just scared. She switched because she believes that the followers of Catholicism will not get into Heaven. And that's also why she's scared still in that she has to follow every thing that the Bible says...getting into Heaven. She believes that if she doesn't follow the Bible, she will not get into Heaven, and that it's not simply having faith in Jesus/God that will get you in.

I mean, I know it's not simply just believing in Him that will get you to him. Like I said, I believe that you have to lead a good life, meaning you can't be going around and kill whom ever you want to.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

I already know what she'll say to you post, Garm. She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself? And God wrote the Bible, not people (I got into a debate about this just the other day. I guess she told her eldest sister, and she forwarded something to my gf to forward to me, websites that say why "we can trust the Bible," but it's the Internet, you can't exactly trust everything you find on the Internet right? For all I know, people can just be making all that stuff up.).

I'm on your boat, Garm.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

I said all of this (well not exactly, but things similar) and this is what my gf said, "The Bible/God does not care of world views/thoughts. It's irrelevant to Him." So things like Evolution and all of that doesn't matter. They follow the Bible strictly, so if you guys know of any verses that contradict themselves, please let me know.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

I try not to call others' beliefs ludicrous since that would be going against what I believe people should do. Well, this pertains to things like giving 10% of your income to your church. But if your belief is to kill everyone who doesn't follow what you believe in, then I'll flat out call that ludicrous. Like I said, everyone has their own beliefs and we all should respect each other in that sense.

[cali yaris]

Laz, first of all you and them are just not on the same page. The real question is there will be mutual acceptance on this fact. If not, I'm gonna get real right here: this is not the girl for you. (sorry).

She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself?

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

That's a simple one, but there are a lot more. I see the Bible as inspired but also historical and therefore contextual.

[supmet]

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

Don't even have to go OT for that one -

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 -

let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

so ya, the bible says she should shut up and make you a turkey pot pie. problem solved

[eTiMaGo]

yeah but try to explain that to someone who blindly believes that every word was put there by God Himself...

I'm afraid the more I read this the more I realize you don't have many options. I'm not so familiar with these SDA people but it sounds more like a cult than an actual religion... As PK mentioned, early Christians have always been very good at twisting things to suit their image...

So I dunno... I know you're very fond of this girl, but you gotta ask yourself if she's worth the inevitable stress and headaches you'll get in the future if you stay with her. Cold, I know... My uncle married some years back and his wife decided to become a Jehovah's Witness... He's a really gentle guy and tried to go along with it, ended up attempting suicide...

[Malaya1221]

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

KL, you're going to hell for this!!!:evil::smile:

i understand your frustrations...it's hard to have a conversation with a wall(j/k)...

you might want to go on a different route in confronting the situation....i was thinking maybe ask the gf if her grandparents believe in what she believes in or, how about kids who do not yet understand these kinds of complexity the time they pass away...are they doom to go to hell too?...ask lots of questions...you might be able to put some logic in to her! well, have fun and good luck!:thumbsup:

on a lighter note, 4 words my man...

"there is no god":wink:

[YarisOwnersDad]

It's real simple.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus, the Son of God, came into this world and lived a perfect, sinless life. He lived the sinless life that one would be required to live in order to be acceptable to God by one's own merits and by one's own righteousness.

No one else has ever lived that sinless life, and no one else ever will.

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

When Jesus died on the Cross, He did not die for His own sins, because He had no sin. He took upon Himself our sins and paid the price for them. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we accept what He did for us on Calvary. Our sins are no longer imputed to us, rather the Righteousness of God is imputed to us.

Romans 4:6-8

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

There is but one way to be acceptable to God, and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now what God's word said above has nothing to do with being a Catholic, a Baptist, a Methodist, or whatever.

There is not a religion in the world that will make you right with God. There are not enough "good things" you could do to earn your way to Heaven. What you do with Jesus is the only thing that matters. Pilate washed his hands of Jesus. The Roman guards beat Him, spit on Him, and nailed Him to the Cross. The non-believing Jews mocked Him. But the thief on the cross beside Him simply asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom.

Luke 23:42:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The thief believed that Jesus was who He said He was. The thief put his trust in Jesus and called Him Lord.

The thief's soul was saved that very moment.

God bless.

Tom

[Malaya1221]

there you go kl, problem solved!

[jambo101]

Speaking of religion George Carlin has a few things to say about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Loren]

I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?
Okay, here's a quick stab...

I don't believe that there is a god (or a God, no offense) or a heaven, but I prefer to think of myself as a devout agnostic rather than an atheist. Why? Because I don't "know", which is the very definition of agnosticism. I'm really, really close to being an atheist, though. :wink:

That said, if there were a god who created the universe and ME, then that god gave me the freedom of thought to come to my own conclusions based on my own personal observations, NOT on the writings of men who have been dead for thousands of years (and who's words have been translated and revised to suit the political ideals of kings and churches over the years), or on the preaching of other men who are convinced that these writings are "the word of god" and that THEIR interpretation of these texts are correct. If such a god exists and there is a heaven waiting for us, I would think that regardless of my lack of faith, being a generally "good" person, good ol' St. Peter would open the gates for me.

FWIW, I was raised Southern Baptist. I think I'm a better "Christian" than most Christians that I know, in spite of the fact that I do not believe. Think about that for a moment.

[1NZYaris1]

I was not going to make any comment at all , but so far there's what
four or five pages here , and for the first time in a long time ,
everyone is playing nice , and respecting each other view's .
the other thing i will say is That IF there is a GOD he's got one sick
sense of humor. :drinking:

[tomato]

I'm totally sorry, but I will not change my beliefs for anyone. If that's the case, why can't they "join" me, I mean, they did believe in it prior to changing to SDA.



Against my better judgment, I'll jump in - even though I usually avoid discussions about religion like the plague - only because you sound so sincere in wanting input from others. :iono:

I might offend but here goes. In my opinion, your GF is a fundamentalist and that is NOT a good thing.

In my family alone, we have 3 religions, well, 4 if you include the fact that I don't belong to any particular organized religion. I have a big problem with organized religions myself. It would take too long to explain and I don't want to bore everybody. Let's just say I'm not very religious, but I still try to live by certain Christian principles, if that makes sense. :iono:

Still, I cannot even begin to count how many times people approach me to try to cram their own religious beliefs down my throat and tell me how to live my life.

My religion is pretty simple: I practice charity towards others whenever possible and generally try to be a good person, you know, and abide by the main principles "thou shall not steal, etc." all that good stuff. I DON'T turn the other cheek, though :wink:

But to get back to your initial post. I believe that it is easier to tolerate differences of opinion in politics but when it comes to religion, it is far more difficult because people are dead set on their beliefs in an almost visceral manner and they have zero tolerance for others people's view point. :iono:

So much so, that in some cases, religion drives people to do crazy things. People have been killing each others for years, since the very beginning, over differences of opinion on religion. More recently, we have lost 2 buildings in NY, due to some religious extremism turned violent as well.

So I worry for you and your relationship with your GF, long term, when you say that she is trying to get you to follow her beliefs. I don't know the situation, of course, but if I were you, I would rethink having a serious relationship with someone who is so different at the core. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think eventually, that will create a wall between you if it isn't already there.

My 2 c, though, nothing more.

Peace :headbang:

[allspeed]

my belifes are God forgives all sinner and god said to follow the 10 rules wich are the 10 comandment everybody now write from wrong you make your own path you cant lie to god the choice is your so the person doing wrong and that person ask god to forgive them god allways will let say the person doing nothin wrong and bad stuff but does not except him will go down so put it this way when you die you will be juged but while you still have life you have time everybody now about god so when you die you walk up to him he will say i send you that person that person and you will be juged jesus died on the cross so that whe can be forgiven for are sin

[tomato]

PS> Just to clarify, I didn't mean you should split with your GF based on differences of opinion in religion, but what gives me a red flag is the lack of tolerance on her end for your beliefs. Good luck.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Laz, first of all you and them are just not on the same page. The real question is there will be mutual acceptance on this fact. If not, I'm gonna get real right here: this is not the girl for you. (sorry).



That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

That's a simple one, but there are a lot more. I see the Bible as inspired but also historical and therefore contextual.

I sure hope that ALL of them learn to accept that we all have different beliefs.

Hmmm, that's interesting (part about not speaking). She does know about the woman who committed adultery and was put in front of a crowd, which were told to stone the woman to death, but only if they have not sinned (which everyone walked away). I wonder what my gf has to say about the not speaking thing. Thanks Garm.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

The Bible is just a collection of scriptures that were hand picked by the church and only the scriptures that served the purposes of the Church. there are scriptures that didn't make the cut because they were not in line with the philosophy of the Church

I think that's why my gf believes that Catholicism is the "anti-Christ".

[Kaotic Lazagna]

yeah but try to explain that to someone who blindly believes that every word was put there by God Himself...

I'm afraid the more I read this the more I realize you don't have many options. I'm not so familiar with these SDA people but it sounds more like a cult than an actual religion... As PK mentioned, early Christians have always been very good at twisting things to suit their image...

So I dunno... I know you're very fond of this girl, but you gotta ask yourself if she's worth the inevitable stress and headaches you'll get in the future if you stay with her. Cold, I know... My uncle married some years back and his wife decided to become a Jehovah's Witness... He's a really gentle guy and tried to go along with it, ended up attempting suicide...

lol, you know what, that's what my friend (gf's sis' bf) and I thought too. Now I won't say that SDA is a cult since I do not know of any other people who are SDA, but it seems like the persons that lead the Bible studies that my gf and them go to is a cult.

Eek about your uncle.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

KL, you're going to hell for this!!!:evil::smile:

i understand your frustrations...it's hard to have a conversation with a wall(j/k)...

you might want to go on a different route in confronting the situation....i was thinking maybe ask the gf if her grandparents believe in what she believes in or, how about kids who do not yet understand these kinds of complexity the time they pass away...are they doom to go to hell too?...ask lots of questions...you might be able to put some logic in to her! well, have fun and good luck!:thumbsup:

on a lighter note, 4 words my man...

"there is no god":wink:

LOL, that's kinda like what my friend (the Buddhist one) said, "I guess I have a first class ticket to hell." We both were laughing when he said that. Yeah, I really thought about asking questions. They recently lost their grandmother, who I do not think was an SDA (but most likely was a Catholic). Very good points.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

It's real simple.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus, the Son of God, came into this world and lived a perfect, sinless life. He lived the sinless life that one would be required to live in order to be acceptable to God by one's own merits and by one's own righteousness.

No one else has ever lived that sinless life, and no one else ever will.

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

When Jesus died on the Cross, He did not die for His own sins, because He had no sin. He took upon Himself our sins and paid the price for them. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we accept what He did for us on Calvary. Our sins are no longer imputed to us, rather the Righteousness of God is imputed to us.

Romans 4:6-8

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

There is but one way to be acceptable to God, and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now what God's word said above has nothing to do with being a Catholic, a Baptist, a Methodist, or whatever.

There is not a religion in the world that will make you right with God. There are not enough "good things" you could do to earn your way to Heaven. What you do with Jesus is the only thing that matters. Pilate washed his hands of Jesus. The Roman guards beat Him, spit on Him, and nailed Him to the Cross. The non-believing Jews mocked Him. But the thief on the cross beside Him simply asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom.

Luke 23:42:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The thief believed that Jesus was who He said He was. The thief put his trust in Jesus and called Him Lord.

The thief's soul was saved that very moment.

God bless.

Tom

THANK YOU, THANK YOU! Exact location of quotes/verses. I will tell this to my gf the next time she talks to me about the Bible (I'm expecting that to be tomorrow since she loves to talk to me about it).

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Okay, here's a quick stab...

I don't believe that there is a god (or a God, no offense) or a heaven, but I prefer to think of myself as a devout agnostic rather than an atheist. Why? Because I don't "know", which is the very definition of agnosticism. I'm really, really close to being an atheist, though. :wink:

That said, if there were a god who created the universe and ME, then that god gave me the freedom of thought to come to my own conclusions based on my own personal observations, NOT on the writings of men who have been dead for thousands of years (and who's words have been translated and revised to suit the political ideals of kings and churches over the years), or on the preaching of other men who are convinced that these writings are "the word of god" and that THEIR interpretation of these texts are correct. If such a god exists and there is a heaven waiting for us, I would think that regardless of my lack of faith, being a generally "good" person, good ol' St. Peter would open the gates for me.

FWIW, I was raised Southern Baptist. I think I'm a better "Christian" than most Christians that I know, in spite of the fact that I do not believe. Think about that for a moment.

That's what my aforementioned friend says too. And I'm on your boat about generally being a good person.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I was not going to make any comment at all , but so far there's what
four or five pages here , and for the first time in a long time ,
everyone is playing nice , and respecting each other view's .
the other thing i will say is That IF there is a GOD he's got one sick
sense of humor. :drinking:

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Against my better judgment, I'll jump in - even though I usually avoid discussions about religion like the plague - only because you sound so sincere in wanting input from others. :iono:

I might offend but here goes. In my opinion, your GF is a fundamentalist and that is NOT a good thing.

In my family alone, we have 3 religions, well, 4 if you include the fact that I don't belong to any particular organized religion. I have a big problem with organized religions myself. It would take too long to explain and I don't want to bore everybody. Let's just say I'm not very religious, but I still try to live by certain Christian principles, if that makes sense. :iono:

Still, I cannot even begin to count how many times people approach me to try to cram their own religious beliefs down my throat and tell me how to live my life.

My religion is pretty simple: I practice charity towards others whenever possible and generally try to be a good person, you know, and abide by the main principles "thou shall not steal, etc." all that good stuff. I DON'T turn the other cheek, though :wink:

But to get back to your initial post. I believe that it is easier to tolerate differences of opinion in politics but when it comes to religion, it is far more difficult because people are dead set on their beliefs in an almost visceral manner and they have zero tolerance for others people's view point. :iono:

So much so, that in some cases, religion drives people to do crazy things. People have been killing each others for years, since the very beginning, over differences of opinion on religion. More recently, we have lost 2 buildings in NY, due to some religious extremism turned violent as well.

So I worry for you and your relationship with your GF, long term, when you say that she is trying to get you to follow her beliefs. I don't know the situation, of course, but if I were you, I would rethink having a serious relationship with someone who is so different at the core. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I think eventually, that will create a wall between you if it isn't already there.

My 2 c, though, nothing more.

Peace :headbang:

Thank you for your input. I agree with what I bolded since that is how I am, how my family is for that matter. I'm sorry, but I will seriously get heated if someone dares to tell me that my dad, who worked two jobs all his life so that his family could have a decent life and was a good person all his life, is in hell for not following the Bible.

Yes, I agree, people get so hyperreligious that they feel the need to exterminate others; i.e. the Holy War.

But yes, if she continues at this and does not come to respect my beliefs, I will end my relationship with her.

[tomato]

Thank you for your input. I agree with what I bolded since that is how I am, how my family is for that matter. I'm sorry, but I will seriously get heated if someone dares to tell me that my dad, who worked two jobs all his life so that his family could have a decent life and was a good person all his life, is in hell for not following the Bible.

Right on. :headbang:

You're welcome, BTW :)

[Kaotic Lazagna]

************************************ SHE WON'T STOP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I AM THIS CLOSE TO CALLING IT QUITS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Why can she not just fucking respect the fact that I do not necessarily believe in the Bible!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

FUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! She is seriously going to make me have a fucking breakdown!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

She is saying just because I believe in Jesus, I have to believe the Bible.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

And the whole Sabbath thing, you know, not doing anything but resting and reading the Bible, which the SDA believe it to be from Friday night to Saturday night...so are they telling me that nurses, doctors, police, firemen, etc should not work those days, and the ones that are working those days are being sinners?

One of the 10 Commandments involves Sabbath ("Remember the Sabbath to keep it holy"), but there are multiple definitions of Sabbath. For SDA, it's Fri-Sat, for Catholics, it's Sunday.

Now I do my best to obey the 10 Commandments, yet live my life.

Do not worship any other gods besides me.
Okay, I don't believe in any other God.

Do not make idols of any kind
I don't have any idols, per se. I have a scapular around my neck, and there is a crucifix at my church that I kneel to, but I am not idolizing either of these. I simply find God in these, which I don't see it as idolizing the item, but God instead.

Do not misuse the name of the Lord your God.
I'm changing my ways now, and trying my hardest to not use God's name in vain (no more "Oh my God" statements.

Remember to observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy.
See top.

Honor your father and mother.
I do this on a daily basis.

Do not murder.
I'm not going postal on anyone.

Do not commit adultery.
Nope, don't go around having sex.

Do not steal.
I'm not pulling any Winona's.

Do not testify falsely against your neighbor.
Don't do this either.

Do not covet your neighbor’s house.
This is something that's hard, since I would like to have items that other people have, but in no way am I truly jealous of them for having the said item.


So, how am I a bad person?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Since I told her that I base my beliefs on Christianity, but don't necessarily think I am a Christian (since I have my own ways and beliefs about Heaven and hell), and she says I have no bases of being a good person, she should look at that, and the fact that I follow (or at least try to) the 10 Commandments.

Now, it's not my fault that she believes that the Scapular around my neck is an idol. And like I said, believing in Jesus does not necessarily mean I have to believe in the Bible, at least to me. Those are HER beliefs, not MINE. She needs to realize that.

[Altitude]

There's only one possible outcome that works for both persons involved here....

[Kaotic Lazagna]

There's only one possible outcome that works for both persons involved here....

Yeah, if she doesn't change in that she just learns to respect my beliefs, this outcome will be enforced.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Good song on how I'm feeling right now (Numb by LP)

I'm tired of being what you want me to be
Feeling so faithless, lost under the surface
I don't know what you're expecting of me
Put under the pressure of walking in your shoes

(Caught in the undertow just caught in the undertow)
Every step that I take is another mistake to you
(Caught in the undertow just caught in the undertow)

I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

Can't you see that you're smothering me?
Holding too tightly, afraid to lose control
Cause everything that you thought I would be
Has fallen apart right in front of you

(Caught in the undertow just caught in the undertow)
Every step that I take is another mistake to you
(Caught in the undertow just caught in the undertow)
And every second I waste is more than I can take

I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

And I know I may end up failing too
But I know you were just like me
With someone disappointed in you

I've become so numb I can't feel you there
Become so tired so much more aware
I'm becoming this all I want to do
Is be more like me and be less like you

I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I'm tired of being what you want me to be
I've become so numb I can't feel you there
I'm tired of being what you want me to be

[Kaotic Lazagna]

/end vent/

Time to get back to studying...lost a couple hours with the argument I just had...

[jambo101]

So, how am I a bad person?

How about thou shall not make 10 separate threads in 10 minutes when one thread will suffice.

[TinyGiant]

Kaotic

have you done any google searching on the SDA?


its a toughy that your in.. i feel for ya..

remember that they base their faith on works.. so if you arent following thier religious model for a good adventist.. then they will consider you bad.


its like the JW they consider me an apostate (anti-christian) because i pray to Jesus. basically anything that i do for God is completely nullified by the fact that i pray to Jesus instead of God. and if i pray to God and call him anything but Jehovah ..then God will not hear me.. which would make me an apostate agian.. It amazes me that they claim to read the bible and can still think that this line of thinking is legit.. lol God is called many names in the bible.. and Jesus even says that he and the father are one.

[SailDesign]

<snip-dedip>
its like the JW they consider me an apostate (anti-christian) because i pray to Jesus.


Hmm..... you're anti-Christian becasue you pray to Christ. That sounds logical. :smile:

The only thing more dangerous than getting involved in a land war in Asia is getting into religious arguments. Even as an ordained minister, I stay way from them.
Over and out!

[TinyGiant]

Hmm..... you're anti-Christian becasue you pray to Christ. That sounds logical. :smile:

The only thing more dangerous than getting involved in a land war in Asia is getting into religious arguments. Even as an ordained minister, I stay way from them.
Over and out!

i call them debates :)

spent all summer debating with the JW on my door step.. fun stuff :)

[eTiMaGo]

Yeah, if she doesn't change in that she just learns to respect my beliefs, this outcome will be enforced.

If you want to speed things up, start leaving some pentagrams and other satanic symbols around...

[TinyGiant]

If you want to speed things up, start leaving some pentagrams and other satanic symbols around...

or just go to church on sunday

[TLyttle]

Ordained minister? Interesting...

My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister, my father an atheist. Growing up, I heard the two of them go at it every Sunday in granddad's den. Through osmosis rather than actually paying attention, I learned a LOT about religion; once out on my own, I went to churches, synagogues, temples etc, listening some more.

It took awhile, but I eventually came to my own conclusions, and have tried to stay within my own boundaries as far as behaviour is concerned. The fights between Christians and Moslems, pro-life and pro-choice, hawks and doves, and all the other fights based on religion, I just stay out of them because I (by birth) am a bastard and welcome in few churches or temples, I will never be pregnant, have never faced war, and live my life with a social conscience rather than financial priorities.

With all this background, I always look forward to the JWs and SDAs, and I never send them away; I always make sure that they go back to their leader with more questions than answers!

[tomato]

breakdown? No, no... Not worth it. Hmmm..a few ideas for you:
Either
1) The 2 of you have to agree to disagree, or
2) One of you has to agree to shut up and pretend to agree with the other
3) Be honest and tell her that this could be a deal breaker, or
4) ... you know what to do .... sigh... I'm running out of ideas

You should probably cool off a bit before doing anything rash, though, which is easier said than done, i know. Religion and politics, you know... like I was telling you, we have different religions in the family and also different political beliefs, but when we all go to my father's house, we all pretend and follow his. He's not an idiot, he's figured it out, but if, for example,we all together at the table, we just follow the leader. Makes life easier. I follow that principle pretty much everywhere I go. If people say Grace before dinner, then I'll bend my head too. If they don't, then I don't. At home by myself, I don't.

You know, maybe it's just a phase. I remember once, I was very much into exercising and stuff and I couldn't shut up about it and tried to get everybody else to join a gym. Then it passed.

???

Hope that helps.

Must be pretty hot in Sacramento today, uh? It was 92 in San Francisco yesterday, which is record high for fog city.


Edit:

HOLLY COW, in the time it took me to respond to your post, 15 more posts appeared!!! OK, I was responding to Kaotic's and his nervous breakdown.

[SailDesign]

Ordained minister? Interesting...


:biggrin:

Lemme explain.....

My cousin Herb was a great guy who disliked orgqanised religion. He had a place in the woods, and reckoned that anyone who needed more than God's creation (the woods) to worship in was nuts. So he becasme a mail-order priest in the Universal Life Church so he could perform marriages and christenings for his friends who didn't want to have to follow any particular set of rules. When he died, no-one else in the family picked up the baton, so I applied online to the Universal Life Church and voila! Ordained minister.
I've never used it, but am a legally ordained minister.

[FunctionSpec]

Religion, it's one hell of a drug :cool:

She probably thinks your're the devil by now, out to test her faith. Arguing with her will just lead to more arguing and talking with her will get you guys arguing again. Religious wars are never won, fighting with weapons that don't physically exist.

She's following one dark and narrow path to......insanity.......

[Kaotic Lazagna]

How about thou shall not make 10 separate threads in 10 minutes when one thread will suffice.

How is this relevant, and what 10 threads are you talking about?


there is only one thread...and its his. stop whining

Thank you Pavel.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Kaotic

have you done any google searching on the SDA?


its a toughy that your in.. i feel for ya..

remember that they base their faith on works.. so if you arent following thier religious model for a good adventist.. then they will consider you bad.


its like the JW they consider me an apostate (anti-christian) because i pray to Jesus. basically anything that i do for God is completely nullified by the fact that i pray to Jesus instead of God. and if i pray to God and call him anything but Jehovah ..then God will not hear me.. which would make me an apostate agian.. It amazes me that they claim to read the bible and can still think that this line of thinking is legit.. lol God is called many names in the bible.. and Jesus even says that he and the father are one.

I haven't really done a thorough search on SDA, but from what my gf and them tell me, I know more than I want to.

That's what I've been telling her, in a way, all of use are considered bad by other people. Muslims, Buddhist, etc would consider them bad because they do not follow their beliefs, but imo, that shouldn't apply. Your beliefs is your beliefs, right?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

If you want to speed things up, start leaving some pentagrams and other satanic symbols around...

http://forums.di.fm/images/smilies/lmao.gif

[marcus]

awkward topic...but im curious..

who believes earth and the universe is created by god?

who believes everything is created accidentaly by gas and explosions based on scientific discoveries " SCIENCE "

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Ordained minister? Interesting...

My grandfather was a Presbyterian minister, my father an atheist. Growing up, I heard the two of them go at it every Sunday in granddad's den. Through osmosis rather than actually paying attention, I learned a LOT about religion; once out on my own, I went to churches, synagogues, temples etc, listening some more.

It took awhile, but I eventually came to my own conclusions, and have tried to stay within my own boundaries as far as behaviour is concerned. The fights between Christians and Moslems, pro-life and pro-choice, hawks and doves, and all the other fights based on religion, I just stay out of them because I (by birth) am a bastard and welcome in few churches or temples, I will never be pregnant, have never faced war, and live my life with a social conscience rather than financial priorities.

With all this background, I always look forward to the JWs and SDAs, and I never send them away; I always make sure that they go back to their leader with more questions than answers!

I ask her questions, such as the verses that was given here, and she always has an excuse, like, "that's a tradition."

[Altitude]

breakdown? No, no... Not worth it. Hmmm..a few ideas for you:
Either
1) The 2 of you have to agree to disagree, or
2) One of you has to agree to shut up and pretend to agree with the other
3) Be honest and tell her that this could be a deal breaker, or
4) ... you know what to do .... sigh... I'm running out of ideas

You should probably cool off a bit before doing anything rash, though, which is easier said than done, i know. Religion and politics, you know... like I was telling you, we have different religions in the family and also different political beliefs, but when we all go to my father's house, we all pretend and follow his. He's not an idiot, he's figured it out, but if, for example,we all together at the table, we just follow the leader. Makes life easier. I follow that principle pretty much everywhere I go. If people say Grace before dinner, then I'll bend my head too. If they don't, then I don't. At home by myself, I don't.

You know, maybe it's just a phase. I remember once, I was very much into exercising and stuff and I couldn't shut up about it and tried to get everybody else to join a gym. Then it passed.

???

Hope that helps.

Must be pretty hot in Sacramento today, uh? It was 92 in San Francisco yesterday, which is record high for fog city.


Edit:

HOLLY COW, in the time it took me to respond to your post, 15 more posts appeared!!! OK, I was responding to Kaotic's and his nervous breakdown.

Your optimism is admirable but I think the writing is on the wall for this one and kaotic is just really seeking consensus on what is already a foregone conclusion.

Some people can get along despite religious differences, but most cannot. Based upon his description of his girlfriend she doesn't sound like the type to compromise or be tolerant of beliefs other than her own. She's going to end up very lonely unless she finds a fellow believer with whom to share her religious enthusiasm. That is until she decides to convert to something else...

Best to let this one go and find another.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

breakdown? No, no... Not worth it. Hmmm..a few ideas for you:
Either
1) The 2 of you have to agree to disagree, or
2) One of you has to agree to shut up and pretend to agree with the other
3) Be honest and tell her that this could be a deal breaker, or
4) ... you know what to do .... sigh... I'm running out of ideas

You should probably cool off a bit before doing anything rash, though, which is easier said than done, i know. Religion and politics, you know... like I was telling you, we have different religions in the family and also different political beliefs, but when we all go to my father's house, we all pretend and follow his. He's not an idiot, he's figured it out, but if, for example,we all together at the table, we just follow the leader. Makes life easier. I follow that principle pretty much everywhere I go. If people say Grace before dinner, then I'll bend my head too. If they don't, then I don't. At home by myself, I don't.

You know, maybe it's just a phase. I remember once, I was very much into exercising and stuff and I couldn't shut up about it and tried to get everybody else to join a gym. Then it passed.

???

Hope that helps.

Must be pretty hot in Sacramento today, uh? It was 92 in San Francisco yesterday, which is record high for fog city.


Edit:

HOLLY COW, in the time it took me to respond to your post, 15 more posts appeared!!! OK, I was responding to Kaotic's and his nervous breakdown.

I've tried #1 countless of times. #2, I don't think I can bring myself to do that, to live a lie; and my gf certainly wouldn't. #3 I've hinted about, saying that "religion (by this, I mean trying to impose your religion onto others) can end up tearing families and relationships apart," and her response was it's not the religion, but the people that will tear those things apart. #4, considering it.

OH MAN, it is extremely hot here in Sac. I woke up at 7 in the morning because it was so hot. And my allergies here are much worse than they are in the Bay Area.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

awkward topic...but im curious..

who believes earth and the universe is created by god?

who believes everything is created accidentaly by gas and explosions based on scientific discoveries " SCIENCE "

Christianity for the first, and like you said, science for the latter.

[eTiMaGo]

Or, maybe this is naive, I'm no psychologist, but you could try to go to the root of the problem.. why did she turn to this so-called religion? You mentioned because she was afraid she would not get to Heaven otherwise. Why is that? Why this fear?

As for her excuse of the "traditions", unless those are explicitly allowed in the bible, then she is deviating from the written word there, and thus won't get to Heaven! I mean if you want to do something all the way, do it all the way, don't make excuses...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Your optimism is admirable but I think the writing is on the wall for this one and kaotic is just really seeking consensus on what is already a foregone conclusion.

Some people can get along despite religious differences, but most cannot. Based upon his description of his girlfriend she doesn't sound like the type to compromise or be tolerant of beliefs other than her own. She's going to end up very lonely unless she finds a fellow believer with whom to share her religious enthusiasm. That is until she decides to convert to something else...

Best to let this one go and find another.

Yeah, they were looking into various religions before deciding to stick to SDA, so why wouldn't I think they will switch again.

If I let this one go, I'm not going to find another one in a while. Spend some money on my car instead. :tongue::laugh:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Or, maybe this is naive, I'm no psychologist, but you could try to go to the root of the problem.. why did she turn to this so-called religion? You mentioned because she was afraid she would not get to Heaven otherwise. Why is that? Why this fear?

As for her excuse of the "traditions", unless those are explicitly allowed in the bible, then she is deviating from the written word there, and thus won't get to Heaven! I mean if you want to do something all the way, do it all the way, don't make excuses...

It says it's "custom" (for the women to not speak in church and should cover their heads example). So she says that's "tradition".

She's basing her fears on the SDA beliefs. So I don't think I have a way around that. She keeps saying, "You know, the road to heaven is a hard and narrow one."

So I was so frustrated last night that I blurted out, "For you, that's what you believe, but I have a different belief." From here, I asked her, "So, do you think my dad and your grandmother are in hell because I don't think they followed everything in the Bible, but they were good people and believed in God." Her answer was, "I don't know, only God can judge us." I then said, "Exactly, only God can say where we go." She then said, "That's why you try hard to please God, and to do so, you listen to his words, which is the Bible."

[tomato]

If I let this one go, I'm not going to find another one in a while. Spend some money on my car instead. :tongue::laugh:

:headbang::biggrin:

[tomato]

Your optimism is admirable but I think the writing is on the wall for this one and kaotic is just really seeking consensus on what is already a foregone conclusion.

Some people can get along despite religious differences, but most cannot. Based upon his description of his girlfriend she doesn't sound like the type to compromise or be tolerant of beliefs other than her own. She's going to end up very lonely unless she finds a fellow believer with whom to share her religious enthusiasm. That is until she decides to convert to something else...

Best to let this one go and find another.


I agree with you. Just trying to keep some options open. :iono:
I sure would hate it if they broke up becuase of stuff we said in the forum and not because they reached that conclusion themselves.

Personally I couldn't live with someone who makes me follow rituals or harps on all the time to make me "see the light" I think I'd be out the door pretty fast. Life is too short. :smile:

[wiirenet]

Basically, I don't think the religious part of this thread is that important, but how your gf treats you and others now. Personally I think it sounds like she is really intolerant now, and my personal opinion is that people with her beliefs are really naive and as someone mentioned above... I think there's something psychological behind that. Something had to make her think she needs to follow drastic religious rules to get into heaven..

I don't agree with most religions, but I'll let people be. No offense, but some religions, and it sounds like hers is one of those, are really uptight and intolerant of others and seem to preach to friends and family in order to convert them. And look down on everyone else.

I couldn't stand to be friends with someone like that (I know it sounds ironic, makes me sound intolerant :P) but if the person isn't going to be looking down on me or preaching to me (like it seems SDA does) i won't care... I really admire some religions, but some.. I don't.

Wish you luck, but if this is bothers you I doubt your relationship is going to last if she stays this way.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I agree with you. Just trying to keep some options open. :iono:
I sure would hate it if they broke up becuase of stuff we said in the forum and not because they reached that conclusion themselves.

Personally I couldn't live with someone who makes me follow rituals or harps on all the time to make me "see the light" I think I'd be out the door pretty fast. Life is too short. :smile:

hahaha, that's what I told her, but she just thinks that I'm taking the easy way out. I said, "Great, that's what you believe." :laugh:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Basically, I don't think the religious part of this thread is that important, but how your gf treats you and others now. Personally I think it sounds like she is really intolerant now, and my personal opinion is that people with her beliefs are really naive and as someone mentioned above... I think there's something psychological behind that. Something had to make her think she needs to follow drastic religious rules to get into heaven..

I don't agree with most religions, but I'll let people be. No offense, but some religions, and it sounds like hers is one of those, are really uptight and intolerant of others and seem to preach to friends and family in order to convert them. And look down on everyone else.

I couldn't stand to be friends with someone like that (I know it sounds ironic, makes me sound intolerant :P) but if the person isn't going to be looking down on me or preaching to me (like it seems SDA does) i won't care... I really admire some religions, but some.. I don't.

Wish you luck, but if this is bothers you I doubt your relationship is going to last if she stays this way.

She wasn't like this until about two months ago when they switched to SDA. She used to be open-minded and hears everyone's opinions. Also, I'm not saying that all SDA's go around and blast people with their beliefs, as I know of no other SDA's, but it may just be the person leading their Bible studies that's influencing them to do all of this.

[marcus]

wow this thread is gonna be blown out of proportion...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

wow this thread is gonna be blown out of proportion...

How so? It's going by civilly. People are discussing various religions, and are mainly focusing on my situation.

[wiirenet]

Well, if it was a complete 180 on her personality... then I would stick around and try to talk her through it. Let her know it bothers you, and you value tolerance and etc. But, religion is.. well, religion. People are passionate about it. I don't know her, but since you do I think you can figure out of this is a temporary thing and you can teach her to be tolerant of other beliefs again, or if she's a lost cause because of the people she talks to now.

[TLyttle]

Yes, yes, a very civil thread indeed! There are other sites, other participants whose attitudes wouldn't be so... well, enlightened.

I have seen a number of families torn to shreds by these "conversions", always ugly, usually because the organisation keeps pounding on the converted about how they are living with a sinner, and raising the family in sinful ways; how powerful is that? Tell someone that they are sending their kid to Hell because (usually) hubby won't convert, now there's a dinner table conversation no one wants to be part of! More than once I have told reps from SDA and JW that their zealotry is more destructive than any vice, right up there with heroin and crack, and that they are lucky the Law protects them because of their greedy practices. Usually, that is when they leave.

Staying in a relationship like that is only going to put off the inevitable: "little" problems get a whole lot bigger as time goes by. Certainly, it is best that it came up now, rather than after you established a family. You just know that they will find her a "suitable" mate when you split.

[nemelek]

I swore that I would sit on the sidelines for this thread. Oh well. These are my thoughts and beliefs and I speak for no one but myself.

Religion is for people that don’t want to go to hell. Spiritually is for people that have lived in hell. I was born into a Catholic family and did the sacraments and alter boy thing. Never believed that wine and bread was changed to body and blood of Christ during the mass. Still don’t. When I left home I left the church and never went back except for weddings and funerals. Born again were interesting and I often told them no thanks, I had enough of the crap the first time.

It is said that what you think about most becomes your God. For some it’s money, sex, work etc. Mine was drugs and alcohol. In 12 years I drank my lifetime and 5 other peoples lifetime supply of alcohol. Drove drunk over 1,000 times. Even after killing a teenager while drunk driving I didn’t stop. When I tried I couldn’t quit. It took finding a power greater than myself through a 12 step program to finally stop. Today I have over 20 years of continuous sobriety. God did for me what I couldn’t do for myself. God didn’t open the gates of heaven and let me in, He opened the gates of hell and let me out.

I believe that there have been enlighten spiritual teachers that have lived among us. Jesus, Ali, Gandhi, Buddha, and others. Like them I am also a son of God. However, these people achieved a spiritual awareness that I’ll never obtain but to grow toward. To me God is like the electricity in a house. If you find a place plug into it there is remarkable things that can be done. The Star Wars God of the force and being able to channel the power through you is also a metaphor I use to describe my beliefs.

God gave man free will. That means that I have the right to choose and create my life. I can make choices based on prayer and meditation or based on ego and old beliefs. Every day, ever hour, every minuet I stand at the turning point. I can make choices based on love or fear. There are no wrong choices. If I take the road A I live certain life lessons. If I take road B I live another set of lessons.

This applies to relationships. If I choose to stay, I’ll live a certain set of lessons. If I leave, I’ll live another. The real question is that if I leave but end up in the same relationship with a different person what did I really learn. The goal is not to see what I can get from another. The goal is to see what I can give. Paradoxically the more I give, the more I get. Also the other person has the right to free will and in order to grow spiritually might find it necessary to leave me. My choices become do I learn and grow or do I wallow in self pity.

I believe that water seeks it’s own level. If I have great relationships, I must be doing well. If I have sick relationships I am probably not all that mentally healthy. Relationships are like rock tumblers. Every body rough edges keep getting knocked against each other until we are polished gem stones. I have been knocked around a lot and still being polished.

Relationships can be tough Good Luck.

[tomato]

Powerful statement, Nemelek. For what it's worth, I admire your honesty and courage. These words couldn't have been easy to write. :respekt:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Well, if it was a complete 180 on her personality... then I would stick around and try to talk her through it. Let her know it bothers you, and you value tolerance and etc. But, religion is.. well, religion. People are passionate about it. I don't know her, but since you do I think you can figure out of this is a temporary thing and you can teach her to be tolerant of other beliefs again, or if she's a lost cause because of the people she talks to now.

I let her know that it bothers me, and I really hope she stops it now. So far so good. :thumbsup:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Yes, yes, a very civil thread indeed! There are other sites, other participants whose attitudes wouldn't be so... well, enlightened.

I have seen a number of families torn to shreds by these "conversions", always ugly, usually because the organisation keeps pounding on the converted about how they are living with a sinner, and raising the family in sinful ways; how powerful is that? Tell someone that they are sending their kid to Hell because (usually) hubby won't convert, now there's a dinner table conversation no one wants to be part of! More than once I have told reps from SDA and JW that their zealotry is more destructive than any vice, right up there with heroin and crack, and that they are lucky the Law protects them because of their greedy practices. Usually, that is when they leave.

Staying in a relationship like that is only going to put off the inevitable: "little" problems get a whole lot bigger as time goes by. Certainly, it is best that it came up now, rather than after you established a family. You just know that they will find her a "suitable" mate when you split.

Very true, and I hope she turns around in the sense of being able to coexist with my beliefs.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I swore that I would sit on the sidelines for this thread. Oh well. These are my thoughts and beliefs and I speak for no one but myself.

Religion is for people that don’t want to go to hell. Spiritually is for people that have lived in hell. I was born into a Catholic family and did the sacraments and alter boy thing. Never believed that wine and bread was changed to body and blood of Christ during the mass. Still don’t. When I left home I left the church and never went back except for weddings and funerals. Born again were interesting and I often told them no thanks, I had enough of the crap the first time.

It is said that what you think about most becomes your God. For some it’s money, sex, work etc. Mine was drugs and alcohol. In 12 years I drank my lifetime and 5 other peoples lifetime supply of alcohol. Drove drunk over 1,000 times. Even after killing a teenager while drunk driving I didn’t stop. When I tried I couldn’t quit. It took finding a power greater than myself through a 12 step program to finally stop. Today I have over 20 years of continuous sobriety. God did for me what I couldn’t do for myself. God didn’t open the gates of heaven and let me in, He opened the gates of hell and let me out.

I believe that there have been enlighten spiritual teachers that have lived among us. Jesus, Ali, Gandhi, Buddha, and others. Like them I am also a son of God. However, these people achieved a spiritual awareness that I’ll never obtain but to grow toward. To me God is like the electricity in a house. If you find a place plug into it there is remarkable things that can be done. The Star Wars God of the force and being able to channel the power through you is also a metaphor I use to describe my beliefs.

God gave man free will. That means that I have the right to choose and create my life. I can make choices based on prayer and meditation or based on ego and old beliefs. Every day, ever hour, every minuet I stand at the turning point. I can make choices based on love or fear. There are no wrong choices. If I take the road A I live certain life lessons. If I take road B I live another set of lessons.

This applies to relationships. If I choose to stay, I’ll live a certain set of lessons. If I leave, I’ll live another. The real question is that if I leave but end up in the same relationship with a different person what did I really learn. The goal is not to see what I can get from another. The goal is to see what I can give. Paradoxically the more I give, the more I get. Also the other person has the right to free will and in order to grow spiritually might find it necessary to leave me. My choices become do I learn and grow or do I wallow in self pity.

I believe that water seeks it’s own level. If I have great relationships, I must be doing well. If I have sick relationships I am probably not all that mentally healthy. Relationships are like rock tumblers. Every body rough edges keep getting knocked against each other until we are polished gem stones. I have been knocked around a lot and still being polished.

Relationships can be tough Good Luck.

Wow, very good and powerful post. You are a very admirable person, and congrats on the 20 :respekt:

I guess we are still getting polished into that perfect diamond (well, no ones perfect, but you know what I mean. hehe).

[KCALB SIRAY]

so it's been a month, have things worked out?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Well, I straight up told her to never talked to me about religion anymore, and after that, she's barely talked to me. But I did agree to go to a seminar (actually today) and to her church (Saturday), but I'm going just to go. In no means am I or my friend going to convert. And if anyone asks us, we will state that.

Oh, and my other friend and I decided to look up SDA's, and found out that one of the cofounders, Ellen G. White, opposed everything the bible says (and SDA's are suppose to be following the bible, but look at it's founders), and the other stated before he died, "It's sad to see the religion I created is starting to become a cult" (something to that extent). So more of a reason for me to never convert.

Thanks for checking up, Mike. :thumbsup: