Ultra Racing 23mm Rear Stabilizer Bar

[Loren]

Installed one of these bad boys (http://shop.microimageonline.com/product.sc?categoryId=4&productId=125) this evening. Big thanks to Garm at Micro Image for sourcing these for us and offering them at a reasonable price! Nice part, but I'd recommend not trying to install it by sliding under the car with a couple wrenches between runs at an autocross when you're working from the middle and can't really see either end. I tried that Saturday, didn't work.

I'm feeling a little scatterbrained and disorganized this week, so this review will follow suit. Bear with me.

First, there has been some confusion about whether the TRD rear bar is 19mm or 22mm. I've seen a few references here on the forum that hint at it being 22mm, so I want to clearly state for the record that the TRD rear bar is 19mm. Might be 22mm for some other Toyota, but not for the Yaris. 19mm, I just measured it, trust me.

Now, myself and others have told tales of installing the TRD bar by just sliding under the car and bolting it on. No muss, no fuss, no jacking up the car, no taking off the wheels, just bolt it on. And that's a fact. But, I've learned something... if you have wider wheels (especially with proper offset), it's a little tight getting that TRD bar in and out. I was still able to do it with my 15x7 41mm offset wheels, but it wasn't as easy as it was with stock wheels.

The new 23mm bar, was even tighter of a fit between the wheels, which is partly why I couldn't fit it Saturday with the car on the ground. The other reason I couldn't get it installed Saturday was that I thought it was made wrong somehow because it didn't seem to fit. Here's the deal: The TRD bars are made a bit loose. That is, the ends are a little bit wider than the points they mount to on the car. Makes for a really easy slip fit. The 23mm bar is a much tighter fit, in fact, it LOOKS like it won't fit at all (especially when compared side-by-side with the TRD bar that is made wider), but if you hook one end and push the other end outward, sure enough it will fit!

So, I put the car up on stands today and went back to it. Ended up removing one wheel just to make it easier. Once stretched into place, bolting the bar on is a snap. I reused the bolts that I already had on the car from the TRD installation.

Initial driving impression: After setting the rear shocks to near full soft, I went for a drive and found that I had most of the steering response and front grip that I had with the rear shocks set almost full stiff at the autocross Saturday... but without the "feel every crack in the pavement" harshness that comes with having the shocks set that stiff. Nice. That's just what I was after.

I'll have to live with it for a while and get some autocross time with it to have a better idea of how well it works, but it seems like a step in the right direction for me and anyone else who is interested in less understeer and is confident in their ability to handle oversteer should it occur.

BTW, I now have a TRD bar (just like this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Toyota-Yaris-2006-2008-TRD-Rear-Sway-Bar-Kit-OEM-NEW_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp3286Q2em20Q2el1116Q QhashZitem130133840237QQitemZ130133840237QQptZMoto rsQ5fCarQ5fTruckQ5fPartsQ5fAccessories#ht_562wt_10 05)) for sale, PM me if you're interested. :biggrin: This bar comes with a few scratches, some dirt, a racing pedigree, and no bolts.

Here's a couple crappy photos for your viewing pleasure. You can see that this bar doesn't fit into the slot in the beam axle like the TRD bar does. It hangs a bit lower, but no lower than the fuel tank or exhaust or anything else, so it doesn't matter. I think I need to paint it black.

Oooh, let's ramble a little bit more. This first photo allows you to visualize a little bit how the rear sway bar works (something that a lot of people just don't "get"). Look at the picture. Visualize making a right turn. Weight shifts to the left. In the rear, the beam axle should twist a bit allowing the right rear tire to stay in contact with the road in all but the most extreme turns. What does the swaybar do? It resists that twist, it makes that inside rear tire want to lift. But, if the inside rear tire is lifting... where is that weight going? It's got to go somewhere. The answer is that it transfers diagonally across the car to the opposite side front tire. THAT is what a rear swaybar does for you, it transfers weight to the outside front tire in a turn.

On a FWD car, it's the outside front tire that is being asked to do the most work and it's the one that causes understeer when it loses grip. Putting more weight on it at the time that it needs it most allows it to grip more. Good stuff. There is also a secondary effect, though. Some of that transferred weight also ends up on the INSIDE front tire (think about it, you've made the car a tripod at this point, both front tires are sharing more than their usual share of the weight), which reduces inside wheelspin if you're trying to accelerate out of the turn and actually allows you to do so. Cool, huh?

[blacksandiegovitz]

Nice ! I'll be buing one real soon if Garm still has any left...

[kngrsll]

awesome... i need to get around to getting one of these...

[Lafiro]

How about converting the rear to independant suspension?

[RagnaCaT]

Nice review thanks!

[Loren]

How about converting the rear to independant suspension?

Um... Sure. Why don't you do that. Then you can write a new post about it and tell us how it worked for you. :confused:

[cali yaris]

Loren,

Thanks for the straight-up review. I'm glad it's not "too much" -- I'll order a bunch more. Keep us posted as you continue to drive the car!

[Loren]

No, not too much at all. Even with my stiffer rear springs, it doesn't seem like too much. I'll be able to comment further after I autocross with it, but I'm expecting good things.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Ah, nice. I'll be installing one of these on my friend's LB once his order with Garm is paid and sent.

[ddongbap]

No, not too much at all. Even with my stiffer rear springs, it doesn't seem like too much. I'll be able to comment further after I autocross with it, but I'm expecting good things.

Hella interested in seeing how this will modify handling.

[33OH]

Aah!! Now I need one of these too! Damn you Garm!! :biggrin:

[xbalance]

how was the respond in the slow, mid, high speed when taking a corner? if continue push will it oversteer? compare to TRD bar respond?

[Loren]

how was the respond in the slow, mid, high speed when taking a corner? if continue push will it oversteer? compare to TRD bar respond?
Like I said, I just put it on yesterday evening and I'll know more after I've lived with it for a while and after I've autocrossed with it. I'm not going to push it hard enough to find how it handles at the limit on the street.

I can answer the last parts of your query:

"if continue push will it oversteer?" No, of course not. No way, no how, that's not how FWD cars work. If it's understeering and you keep your foot all the way on the gas, it's going to keep understeering. You won't get oversteer unless you lift or brake in a turn. With a larger rear bar, lift-throttle oversteer should be greater, however.

"compare to TRD bar respond" It's a much stiffer bar, yes, it provides better steering response than the smaller TRD bar.

[jkuchta]

I also installed a 23mm bar at Garm's on Monday.

I haven't been able to push it yet, but the ride quality is the same, and turn-in is much quicker/more responsive, much as Loren has mentioned.

The car does not lean nearly as much as stock.

I'll continue to post as I continue to push this bar, but so far I think it's one of the better mods anyone can do!

[schleppy]

Having just installed the TRD bar this morning (and loving the result), it's nice to know that's not the biggest bar available.

I look forward to your post-autox thoughts!

[Loren]

Drove to the bank a while ago. I'm starting to figure things out a little. I have a strange habit when I'm driving... I tend to do what I need to do to get the car to "feel" right without thinking much about it. (this is part of the reason I'm good at autocross, I can adapt to the car and what the car is doing without having to think about it) My tendency to make such adjustments sometimes makes it hard for me to evaluate changes like this one.

What I'm finding is that, just as one would expect, with the rear being stiffer, overall body roll is reduced. Now, since I'm not in "economy mode" while testing this (when I'm in economode, I'm more focused on just using a light throttle than what the car feels like), I find that I'm subconsciously accelerating harder out of turns to get the car to roll to where it feels like it "should"... where it used to before. As a result, I'm carrying considerably more speed around the typical turn than I was before without any drama.

So, in a nutshell, the bar seems to be doing exactly what it should do. Shifting more weight to the front, allowing for better front traction in a turn.

Could be my imagination, but the steering feels different. I want to say it has a little more "centered" feel to it. Like it wants to go straight, takes slightly more effort to turn. By the time I figure that one out, I'll be used to it!

[cali yaris]

Driving AWAY from the bank, with the sack of money... THAT is the true test... :smile:

[YarisSedan]

I am awaiting the day i turn on Cops and see a yaris police chase!

[at3GG]

haha i saw some lady running in an Xb on the news the other day, it was some lady in Cali. Smoked the front tires pulling away at one time. Funny stuff, dont know where she thought she was going.....thread jack ended.... Any idea of how much you'd let the used bar go for..? Thanks for the thorough review, keep it coming!

[Loren]

This thread is about the new bar... it's not a for sale thread, that's why I said "PM me". ;)

But, I have 5 people interested so far, so it's probably gone.

[at3GG]

ahh my bad just curious,....good luck selling ...any new info on performance?

[Loren]

I've learned nothing new sitting at my computer this afternoon. :)

[xbalance]

Loren,

Noted, about the autocross...
and another thing is do u try on the wet road or during rainning time ... what is the grip level, as dry & wet road the car and the tire respond in different way .. some time in the wet road i will just take at a lower speed....

[Loren]

Loren,

Noted, about the autocross...
and another thing is do u try on the wet road or during rainning time ... what is the grip level, as dry & wet road the car and the tire respond in different way .. some time in the wet road i will just take at a lower speed....

Wet roads are where things get hairy. Hasn't rained here since I installed the new bar. But, anything you do that changes the handling bias of the car to reduce understeer is going to make it more likely to oversteer. The conditions in which it will oversteer will be when there is low grip (rain, snow, sand, rough pavement, crappy tires, whatever reason) or you're pushing the limits and you lift off of the gas and/or hit the brakes while turning. When you're accelerating, weight is transferred to the rear tires and keeps them planted, when you lift, that weight comes off of the rear and off you go.

My recommendation is that anyone who does this kind of modification should ALREADY be well in tune with how to handle their car at the limit, and then they should test it in a closed environment in every possible condition. Test it out in the dry, see how it behaves. When it rains, go test again. When winter comes, if it snows (or even just when it gets cold, cold tires don't grip), go test again. These kinds of mods make the car much less forgiving, you need to know how to handle the car.

I'm not trying to scare anyone here, or anything... but Consumer Reports (wasn't it CR?) has already pronounced the STOCK Yaris as having a tendency toward oversteer in certain conditions. (the lift-throttle conditions mentioned above, no doubt) So, be careful!

[Loren]

I guess the thing to remember is that with a stiffened rear suspension, the front is going to grip better. In wet conditions, this may inspire you... "hey, I actually have some grip, I can accelerate around this turn!", but then something happens and you need to slow down and it takes much less of a "lift" to get the back end to step out on you. So, it can inspire false confidence. You just need to know how to handle it, and to be mature enough to know not to play games on the street.

Okay, okay... I'll stop.

[xbalance]

Loren,

some of my friends say in the wet road or during rain time ... dont push so much as the rear as the rear will kick out to be overstreer so they advice not to go too big rear sway bar... to balance out this issue..

By the way do we need to use a larger size sway bar in the front to improve more?

wonder if carry so much speed in a corner will the Brake system EBD able to respond and slow down in a safe way?

how to make the EBD system fail?

[Loren]

Correct, not going so big on the rear bar will help prevent dangerous oversteer in wet conditions. I'm setting my car up for competition, and I just tone down my driving in adverse conditions. (I drive pretty mild on the street, anyway)

I'm not a fan of a bigger front bar on a FWD car. FWD cars are always fighting understeer. A larger front bar CAUSES understeer. It is the antichrist.

Don't know anything about EBD, my car has no such options. Not even sure what EBD is, but I'm assuming some sort of traction control or yaw control. If so, the Yaris is NOT a performance car, so this is likely a rudimentary system. Who knows how it will react to modifications to the suspension?

[yarstar]

Thanks, yet again, for the education, Loren. I bought a TRD sway bar not long ago, but I didn't really understand it, that is until I read this thread. Thank you for taking the time to explain it. I now know how it works and why. I also know now....I need a bigger bar!!! Damn it! Garm always ends up getting my money!

Thanks again.

:clap:

[RHDVIPbB]

This is definitely on my list of things to get. I have been looking at the Ksports and it is nice to know that someone else has this setup. I plan on doing open lap events at a new local course and am glad to see someone like you who does auto-x is giving a good writeup about this product. Garm, expect and order from me after my son is born.

On a small sidenote, how do you like the Ksports. It is near the top of my list on suspension kits that I want to get. Are they easily adjustable and how do you like to ride on the track and on the street? Do you change the settings that much between track and regular driving?

[Loren]

C'mon, let's stay on topic. Wanna talk about something else? Start a new thread!
(yes, I'm a grumpy old bastard... more so every day)

[RHDVIPbB]

It was on topic. I was wanting to know how well it does with the Ksports.
Although it is nice to know that one can install it by themselves if needed.

[at3GG]

I've learned nothing new sitting at my computer this afternoon. :)

Pwned...


[QUOTE=Loren;296381]C'mon, let's stay on topic. Wanna talk about something else? Start a new thread!
QUOTE]

pwned.....


:sigh:: :thumbup:

[Loren]

I taught at a BMW club teen driving clinic today, and had the opportunity to play on the test course during lunch. No timed runs or anything, just some horsing around on a course with lots of transitional elements. I was not disappointed at all! With the new rear bar, the front end stays very connected to the pavement, it made me very happy. No problems with oversteer, so it's definitely not "too much" bar (at least not for the rest of my setup and my driving style).

My next autocross is going to be fun!

[kngrsll]

I taught at a BMW club teen driving clinic today, and had the opportunity to play on the test course during lunch. No timed runs or anything, just some horsing around on a course with lots of transitional elements. I was not disappointed at all! With the new rear bar, the front end stays very connected to the pavement, it made me very happy. No problems with oversteer, so it's definitely not "too much" bar (at least not for the rest of my setup and my driving style).

My next autocross is going to be fun!

good to hear! what kind of spring rates are you running?

[Loren]

4kg/mm front and rear on K-Sport Kontrol Pro shocks. It's very simple setup... but very effective!

[kngrsll]

4kg/mm front and rear on K-Sport Kontrol Pro shocks. It's very simple setup... but very effective!

Nice, i think im going to bump up to Tein springs when i get new dampers. They are 3kg front and 3.5kg rear if i remember right. That, combined with a (maybe!) rear sway bar, i think it will be a really nice set up. If i want to do anything else to it, i can probably tune it with some longacre spring rubbers.

[kngrsll]

sweeeeeet!! the g/f is buying a 23mm rear sway bar for my birthday :) :) :)

[Klinton]

sweeeeeet!! the g/f is buying a 23mm rear sway bar for my birthday :) :) :)

sounds like a great lady!!!

[fuji]

I just ordered mine. Might have to beef up the front later!

[Loren]

I just ordered mine. Might have to beef up the front later!

We seem to be missing the "banging head against wall" smiley. So, you'll have to use your imagination and picture me banging my head against the wall now.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

:bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk: :bonk:

[justjesus]

We seem to be missing the "banging head against wall" smiley. So, you'll have to use your imagination and picture me banging my head against the wall now.

yup yup.

Good write up / driver's impression.

[detroiter]

I'm curious how your driving experience has been since it's been some time from installing your Ultra Racing bar, any updates since you've had some seat time with it?

[Loren]

I work from home, so I don't put a lot of miles on the car. Since the last update that I made Sunday, I've driven the car exactly once. Nothing new to report. I like it, it works for me, not much more to say.

The more I drive with it, the more I'm going to get used to it. I don't expect I'll have anything more to add. The initial impressions were the most relevant things I could tell you, and that is past. I'd have to change the car back to the way it was before in order to give that same level of comparison again.

I'll post up after I actually do an autocross in full-competition mode and review that aspect.

[CompanyXPaladin]

I just got my 19mm bar 6 weeks ago - now I want the 23mm bar.. Curse you, Loren! :rolleyes:

Nice review - thanks for the write-up.:clap:

[detroiter]

I see what you mean. Well thank you for what you have contributed so far, looks like my TRD bar might be a thing of the past and will look to the future with a UR one

[CtrlAltDefeat]

So the UR 23mm seems to be better then the 19mm TRD... wonder if that's because of the tighter fitting of the UR or the size. When I bought my UR Sway bar only the 19mm was available unfortunately, and I wonder how much of a difference it would have been with the 23mm... any thoughts, Loren?

[Loren]

"Better" is relative to what you expect from it and what else you've done to your suspension. For the average street driver with an otherwise stock or near stock suspension, the 19mm bar is probably all you really need.

The 23mm is "better" for me not because of the tightness of fitment, that is purely incidental and in no way effects how the bar works. It's better for my needs because it is a larger diameter and therefore stiffer. Being stiffer, it does everything that a rear stabilizer bar does to a greater degree, which is good for the kind of competition driving that I do.

"How much difference" between the 19 and 23mm bars? 4 millimeters! I can't quantify it any more than that. I've already reviewed it in comparison to the TRD 19mm bar on MY car, that's all I can do, man.

Will a 23mm bar be "better" for you? I can't answer that. I will say this, however... I subscribe to the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" principle. With the stock suspension, the body roll is awful and a 19mm bar fixes that. The problem *I* was fighting was understeer in a competition environment. The 23mm bar did a better job of fixing THAT problem. If you're not having that problem, then you don't need to fix it.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

hmm ok well my ultimate goal in the future is to buy a DD and turn my current Yari into a track car. I would have liked to have gotten a 23mm and not have to buy the same part twice, but my then maybe I'll need a new one (i think they lose their stiffness after a while, right?) If not I'll see if I truly need it by then...

[Loren]

Um, no, they don't lose their stiffness after a while.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

Um, no, they don't lose their stiffness after a while.

oh ok... I figured like the chassis itself, it would lose it's stiffness after a while :iono:

[RagnaCaT]

I got a question will sway bar relief the rear wobble I get sometimes in the highway at speed around 70mph? normaly it's on windy days, wide turns and well highway stuff..

[Loren]

I got a question will sway bar relief the rear wobble I get sometimes in the highway at speed around 70mph? normaly it's on windy days, wide turns and well highway stuff..
Yep.

[PHXDEMON]

I got a question will sway bar relief the rear wobble I get sometimes in the highway at speed around 70mph? normaly it's on windy days, wide turns and well highway stuff..
It won't elmininate but it helped mine out a lot (19mm UR sway bar)

[Ryu]

I just realized that even Mitsubishi Evolution use 23mm rear sway bar.

http://www.mitsubishi-motors.ca/Lancer_Evolution/Specifications.aspx

Under suspension category.

[Loren]

What the Evo uses for a rear bar is completely and totally irrelevant, my friend.

It has a completely different suspension design, different weight distribution, different spring rates, etc.

A "good" rear swaybar for a typically set up Miata is about 14mm, does that make it right for a Yaris? No. A Miata is a lightweight, well-balanced RWD car with independent rear suspension.

A "good" rear swaybar for a Saturn S-series is 16 or 17mm, does that make it right for a Yaris? No. A Saturn S-Series is a FWD car, but it has an independent rear suspension, and unlike the Yaris, it uses a real swaybar (not a torsion beam axle reinforcement like the Yaris).

I could go on... but, you get the point. I hope. If you're going to make an analogy between a Yaris suspension and another car, the other car needs to be about the same weight as the yaris, have the same drivetrain layout, and a similar suspension design.

Not picking on you, Ryu... but spend more time learning about your suspension and how it works and less time studying parts catalogs. Then you might come to some meaningful conclusions.

[Ryu]

Haha, sorry my bad. I guess I have a lot to learn. Thanks Loren for your input.:thumbsup:

[RagnaCaT]

What the Evo uses for a rear bar is completely and totally irrelevant, my friend.

It has a completely different suspension design, different weight distribution, different spring rates, etc.

A "good" rear swaybar for a typically set up Miata is about 14mm, does that make it right for a Yaris? No. A Miata is a lightweight, well-balanced RWD car with independent rear suspension.

A "good" rear swaybar for a Saturn S-series is 16 or 17mm, does that make it right for a Yaris? No. A Saturn S-Series is a FWD car, but it has an independent rear suspension, and unlike the Yaris, it uses a real swaybar (not a torsion beam axle reinforcement like the Yaris).

I could go on... but, you get the point. I hope. If you're going to make an analogy between a Yaris suspension and another car, the other car needs to be about the same weight as the yaris, have the same drivetrain layout, and a similar suspension design.

Not picking on you, Ryu... but spend more time learning about your suspension and how it works and less time studying parts catalogs. Then you might come to some meaningful conclusions.

MOD's can we get Loren's name changed from "Loren" to "Master Loren" :clap:

So much info would never fit in my brain....:redface:

[botchilah]

WIth all this talk of the rear sway bar improving the handling, I now also want to upgrade my shocks and dampers to full coil-overs to further see the benefits of a rear sway bar lol

[AznGouki]

Great input Loren. I was very skeptical of Ultra Racing since I have never heard of its name before, but seeing somebody actually put it to track testing and comparing it to the TRD bar leaves me with confidence. I'll probably be making a purchase once I cleared my bill from my last purchase haha.

[somlim]

Hi Loren,

Does the sway bar rubs when you go over any humps, for lowered suspension?

Seems like it's significantly lower than the torsion beam.

Thanks

[cali yaris]

The sway bar doesn't rub or hit the ground.

It isn't any lower than the oil pan in front or, on my car at least, the exhaust system.

[Loren]

Hey, guys.

Finally got to autocross with the 23mm rear bar yesterday. Worked just like expected. I still had to go really stiff with the rear shocks to get the car to oversteer easily, but unlike the last time I autocrossed at this location with an otherwise identical setup (same tires, same springs, same shocks, same surface, same conditions) with the 19mm TRD bar, I could NOT get the car to oversteer. So, the new bar is certainly more effective than the TRD bar was. (please note that I'm NOT saying that EVERYBODY needs this stiffer bar because it is more effective... the 19mm bar makes a big difference and is appropriate for typical street use)

Garm, my suggestion to you for R&D would be to do some testing to find out how much flex remains in the beam axle with this bar installed. Maybe put one wheel on a jack stand, and the other wheel on a jack that you can raise and lower. Pick some reference points and see what the beam axle is doing. If it's not flexing, then making a bigger bar wouldn't really do anything but add weight. If there is still significant flex... make us a bigger bar!