Spring Stiffeners

[Lazerdot]

I have TRD springs and shocks and have heard that I can stiffen the rear end with rubber inserts into the coil off the rear springs. If true were might I find these gadgets? Garm, any ideas? I could use a bit less push at the autocrosses.:burnrubber:

[Tamago]

i don't sugggest them ..

[schleppy]

I wouldn't use them either. Springs were not designed to work with bits of rubber stuck between coils.

[Loren]

I've used them. Had them on my wife's Saturn, all four corners, for at least 6 years. No problems. (same car also had half a coil cut off of each spring...)

Like anything else, you need to understand what you're doing. Adding a rubber spacer between the coils of a spring effectively removes that spring from the picture when the rubber is compressed. If you look up the formula to calculate spring rate, number of coils is a major factor, so removing a coil will raise the spring rate.

The rubber blocks also will raise ride height, so be aware of that.

The cool thing about them is that they're super-easy to install and remove. If they have the desired effect, great! If not, yank 'em back out.

You can get coil spring spacers from JC Whitney, among other places.

[cali yaris]

^ there you go -- JC Whitney. I used to shop in their catalog for my first car, a 1962 Karmann Ghia (sigh).

[kngrsll]

This is an article on spring rubbers:
http://www.longacreracing.com/articles/art.asp?ARTID=31

And these are some for sale:

http://www.google.com/products?q=longacre+spring+rubbers&rls=com.microsoft:*:IE-SearchBox&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7RNWN_en&um=1&ie=UTF-8&ei=biD3SaC3N5OMtgfm76ijDw&sa=X&oi=product_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

[cleong]

You could also increase air pressures in your rear tires so that they don't grip as well as the fronts (or lower the fronts).

[kngrsll]

You could also increase air pressures in your rear tires so that they don't grip as well as the fronts (or lower the fronts).

great great point

[schleppy]

+10 on tire pressures. I'd play with those before I started putting rubber bits in the spring coils.

[Loren]

Guys, don't let your prejudice of the unknown cloud your vision. There's nothing wrong with using spring spacers, they're just another way to change spring rate. Most aftermarket spring kits are designed to understeer, just like the stock suspension is designed to understeer. Understeer is safer for the average idiot, it's predictable.

Putting spring spacers in the rear will allow you to put a little more spring rate back there, which is a good thing. Raising the tire pressure will have a similar end effect, but not exactly the same.

Raising the rear tire pressure raises the effective spring rate of the tire, but the suspension is so soft that it doesn't make much difference. Mostly what you're doing (if you add enough pressure to do it) is crowning the rear tire treads and causing them to lose grip. This will allow you to oversteer, but it does NOT improve the front grip. Raising the rear spring rate (just like adding a rear swaybar) transfers weight to the front and allows the front tires to grip more while also making the car more prone to oversteer.

So, while tire pressures can be helpful to play with, they're not going to do as much as spring rates will.

[anonymous user]

Wow, like Loren stated, i also see no problems adding rubber inserts to springs. Every aftermarket set i have ever used on my cars (besides the yaris) have had them already installed. I guess on heavier cars they are more needed on the lower coils?

[fuji]

They aound like a good way to further tune your spring rates and in some cases weird guys like myself who enjoy close to stock ride heights!

[Lazerdot]

Thanks for all the input everyone.

I'm on Kumo MX Tires now and the fronts tend to "roll over" when I run them at less then 40PSI. I was told it looked as if the rims were almost on the ground. So, I have done the tire pressure thing in the back, but 50psi is max recommended.

The wiggle room is getting narrow. Driver skill is even narrower, so the spring stiffiners seemed like a neat idea as they may be cheap, removable and great as a temporary fix.

My TRD sway bar is 19mm, the other brand is 24mm?, I think. Till I get that this might be the best fix.

I know another tire/wheel combo will help as well. But, guns and ammo first, so far they aren't trying to ban AutoCross...:thumbsup:

[Loren]

I'd put the fronts up to 45 or more if they need it to keep from rolling over. Don't forget about alignment. Sounds like you could use some more negative camber in the front.

[Lazerdot]

Camber may be a help. Garm has some camber "screws" ? available but I don't know how they work. The car has been aligned but very short on negative camber. I used 45psi and around 50in the back. Not bad, but still pushes. I was a bit fast on turn entry which would create the need to loosen the rear a bit. Maybe I should slow down a bit too...?

Thanks for the info and suggestions.

[Loren]

Yes, "slow in, fast out" is the quickest way through any turn. Overcook the entry and you'll understeer and lose even more speed in addition to losing your line.

Camber bolts are an option, or just take a die grinder to the lower strut bolt holes.

[SailDesign]

^ there you go -- JC Whitney. I used to shop in their catalog for my first car, a 1962 Karmann Ghia (sigh).

I hear that "sigh". My first car in the States was a 72 Ghia. Lotsa JC Shitney parts in it.

[yarstar]

I gotta set of spring rubbers I ran on my TRD springs for a year to keep the 17"s from rubbing. I'm on 15's w/ coilovers now. If you want my spring rubbers, PM me and I'll send you a pic. I think I paid $50 for the pair so $25 shipped is cool. They really stiffened the ride too.

[cali yaris]

The camber bolts I sell are lobed, so you can set and re-set camber as you wish from +1.75 to -1.75. Slotting the holes works too if you're game to mod the suspension with that method. Toyota also makes other camber bolts that set camber to specific numbers; but they aren't adjustable.

[Herbicidal]

*** Bringing back an old thread. *** I have the TRD springs and stock shocks, after my sound deadening project and installing a 10" sub with enclosure, the back end is riding lower than I would like due to the extra weight. Spring spacers sound like a viable option to bring the rear end back up a little.

How can I tell what size spacer I need to get for the TRD springs?

Thanks!

[derickveliz2]

Hi Herb,
nice to see you again!

Loren and Garm suggested me tu use RING-TYPE COIL SPRING STABILIZER (http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/textsearch_result.jcw?sku=RING-TYPE+COIL+SPRING+STABILIZER&shopid=100001&_requestid=6367476)

http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/sku/images/large/I_840661_CL_1.jpg



I can't say anything bad about them they work GREAT!!!

Herb 1 size fits all

LINK (http://www.jcwhitney.com/jcwhitney/textsearch_result.jcw?sku=RING-TYPE+COIL+SPRING+STABILIZER&shopid=100001&_requestid=6367476)

Remember to buy 2

Derick

[Herbicidal]

Thanks Derick! You too! I wasn't sure about the one size fits all part. Do you recall how much it lifted up the rear end once installed?

I think I will order up a pair. :thumbsup:

[derickveliz2]

Thanks Derick! You too! I wasn't sure about the one size fits all part. Do you recall how much it lifted up the rear end once installed?

I think I will order up a pair. :thumbsup:

You are welcome!

I would say about 3/8"

To my surprise handling improved a lot. What Loren told me is that the spring rate will raise and it did! for good


I also recommend a Camber kit, not only looks cool but man you can tell the difference in corners and my favorite at ramps.


These are not so good pictures to show the difference but here we go anyway:

Before RING-TYPE COIL SPRING STABILIZER

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/derickveliz/Yarisito/0102409d.jpg



After RING-TYPE COIL SPRING STABILIZER + Camber Kit

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/derickveliz/Yarisito/a22db34a.jpg

Derick

.

[Herbicidal]

OK, I got 'em. Now, where do I place them in the coil spring? Close to the body or close to the road? Somewhere in the middle? I think my TRD springs have the large end up top, almost like they are upside down. Can I just jack up the car (place jack stands for safety) so the springs are 'unloaded' then insert the spacer between the coils? I'll take before and after measurements too.

Thanks!

[derickveliz2]

OK, I got 'em. Now, where do I place them in the coil spring? Close to the body or close to the road? Somewhere in the middle? I think my TRD springs have the large end up top, almost like they are upside down. Can I just jack up the car (place jack stands for safety) so the springs are 'unloaded' then insert the spacer between the coils? I'll take before and after measurements too.

Thanks!

Jack up your car (place jack stands for safety) so the springs are 'unloaded' then insert the spacer between the coils AT THE BOTTOM. Push them as much as possible Look at this photo>

http://i634.photobucket.com/albums/uu61/derickveliz/Yarisito/7323d141.jpg


Then go for a ride you will experience a much better ride and even better at corners and specially at highway speeds, the feeling is GOOD.
I'm actually getting 2 more for the front.

PS. I now lucky you guys don't have the terrible winter issues around here!

[derickveliz2]

PS... use grease to help them go as far as possible!

[Herbicidal]

Thanks Derick, I'll try that tomorrow. Yes, no sand or salt for our roads during winter. Just wet. Our elevation where I live in the Sacramento Valley is only like 180' above sea level, so we get a dusting of snow like once every 10 years!

[derickveliz2]

Bad news for these rubber inserts... with less than 5K miles :frown:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_0uPhXFVEEJE/TId3kZiJeBI/AAAAAAAAbJE/NN9Hn8zkzCA/s512/DSC_4190.JPG

Thoughts?

[yarrr]

Thoughts?

That they are garbage, and you're lucky they didn't fail at high speed on a turn.

[derickveliz2]

That they are garbage, and you're lucky they didn't fail at high speed on a turn.

I don't think any thing would happen I've been driving with them like that for a couple of weeks, I notice the suspension getting softer. (less spring rate)

The rubber is too soft and I squished them in too much.

[cali yaris]

Bad news for these rubber inserts... with less than 5K miles

Those are so cheap to buy, that's having to replace them what, maybe twice a year? To fix a problem you had, and with horrible roads as you say.

I say, not so bad. Not everyone needs these.

[cali yaris]

you're lucky they didn't fail at high speed on a turn.

Why? then he would just have springs, right? :iono:

[derickveliz2]

I got the Deep Groove Spring Rubber - 5/5.5" Black Hard (http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Spring_Rubbers_-_55.5&form_prod_id=721,707_3504&action=product)

more money but the compound it's harder. my ride is much better (sportier) I still would like more spring rate so I can put my 90 pound woofer box in the trunk and not have my car feel so heavy in the rear, how are does new Micro Image springs? (just for the rear)

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/3504_hdr_2.jpg
D.

[why?]

I got the Deep Groove Spring Rubber - 5/5.5" Black Hard (http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Spring_Rubbers_-_55.5&form_prod_id=721,707_3504&action=product)

more money but the compound it's harder. my ride is much better (sportier) I still would like more spring rate so I can put my 90 pound woofer box in the trunk and not have my car feel so heavy in the rear, how are does new Micro Image springs? (just for the rear)

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/3504_hdr_2.jpg
D.

Wow those are expensive, let us know how they are, and how good they are.

Using MI springs might work. The rears are 3k, compared to 2.6 for the NF, however the drop is 1.1" for the NF compared to 1.75" drop for MI, so that might look really strange.

[derickveliz2]

Wow those are expensive, let us know how they are, and how good they are.

Using MI springs might work. The rears are 3k, compared to 2.6 for the NF, however the drop is 1.1" for the NF compared to 1.75" drop for MI, so that might look really strange.

So far the spring rate is much stiffer than before, so they are working. Quality they are like a very hard polyurethane material and the old ones are like soft rubber.

That's why I was thinking on the MI springs 3K, I know about the drop issue?

Looks like coilovers could resolve my issues

D.

[cali yaris]

^ yeah, that will pretty much give you all the adjustability you could want.

Those spring spacers look a lot better, good find.

[why?]

So far the spring rate is much stiffer than before, so they are working. Quality they are like a very hard polyurethane material and the old ones are like soft rubber.

That's why I was thinking on the MI springs 3K, I know about the drop issue?

Looks like coilovers could resolve my issues

D.

Or you could just use the MI springs all around, at $130, they are a deal and a half.

I wonder if there was a way to figure out the new spring rate, these make me want to try springs first, before buying shocks, or going crazy and getting a coilover system.

[cali yaris]

you mean, with the stiffener? it's basically like taking out one turn of the spring, I think. Someone could probably calculate that if they knew the length, diameter and starting spring rate.

Not me, though.

[why?]

you mean, with the stiffener? it's basically like taking out one turn of the spring, I think. Someone could probably calculate that if they knew the length, diameter and starting spring rate.

Not me, though.

Yea, that was what I meant, and I don't have a clue on how to do that either. Also interesting to note that derickveliz2's linked ones say they are used by Nascar teams. Makes it sounds like a trustable product.

[cali yaris]

derickveliz2's linked ones say they are used by Nascar teams. Makes it sounds like a trustable product.

Especially if they use them for beer coasters after the races. Or street hockey.

[why?]

Especially if they use them for beer coasters after the races. Or street hockey.

now that would be interesting. Take them off the car and bring them to the bar.

[Herbicidal]

Another option would be to get a set of custom made coil springs for the rear from these guys: Coil Spring Specialities (http://www.coilsprings.com/). I bought a custom made set (fronts) for my Tundra after I installed a winch up front. I told them exactly how much extra weight I had added up front and they made some that were stock + the extra 200 plus lbs. Once installed, the springs brought the front of my truck back up to stock height. They worked great for several years, then I swapped them out for custom coilovers. Could be worth a call or at least check out their web site.

[why?]

Another option would be to get a set of custom made coil springs for the rear from these guys: Coil Spring Specialities (http://www.coilsprings.com/). I bought a custom made set (fronts) for my Tundra after I installed a winch up front. I told them exactly how much extra weight I had added up front and they made some that were stock + the extra 200 plus lbs. Once installed, the springs brought the front of my truck back up to stock height. They worked great for several years, then I swapped them out for custom coilovers. Could be worth a call or at least check out their web site.

How much did they cost you?

[Herbicidal]

How much did they cost you?

It's been about 5 years so my memory is bit faded on the cost, but I think for the Tundra springs it was between $200 and $250 for the front pair. I'm fairly confident it would be less for a Yaris since far less material is required.

On their main web page, there is a Request a Quote link. Fill out the info and they will get back to you. Five years ago I just called them and gave all the info over the phone and just over two weeks later the springs arrived. I don't know what their turn around time is now.

[why?]

It's been about 5 years so my memory is bit faded on the cost, but I think for the Tundra springs it was between $200 and $250 for the front pair. I'm fairly confident it would be less for a Yaris since far less material is required.

On their main web page, there is a Request a Quote link. Fill out the info and they will get back to you. Five years ago I just called them and gave all the info over the phone and just over two weeks later the springs arrived. I don't know what their turn around time is now.

Hmm, that is quite a bit of cash, at least for the Yaris. It is worth checking out to see what they say.

I did send them a quote just to see what they would say, I also sent them a link to this thread.

[Herbicidal]

Cool. It will be interesting to hear what they say.

[why?]

Hello why?,

1997 Toyota Yaris

Front – coil springs - - 1.50” trim height & +40% rate increase

Pricing: $ 248.40 pr

Rear – coils springs - -1.50” trim height & +35% rate increase

Pricing: $ 238.60 pr

NOTE: I will need for you to send me front and rear coil springs off of the vehicle for engineering calibration and evaluation.

NOTE: I will need front and rear suspension ratio measurements. See attachment for measuring points.

NOTE: if you have made any weight changes to the vehicle. I will need to know the amount of weight (reduced or increases) and the location of the weight change.

Thank You and I await your response to proceed.

Kevin

So almost $500 without even thinking of shipping or other things.

It was a nice thought.

[Herbicidal]

Thanks for posting their reply. I would think that if anyone was interested, just doing the rear springs would work fine. The ride would probably be too firm to do the fronts the same way. Especially if you're toting around 3 HUMOUNGOUS subwoofers <Derick>!!! :biggrin:

[derickveliz2]

I got the Deep Groove Spring Rubber - 5/5.5" Black Hard (http://www.hrpworld.com/index.cfm?tpc=Spring_Rubbers_-_55.5&form_prod_id=721,707_3504&action=product)

more money but the compound it's harder. my ride is much better (sportier)

http://www.hrpworld.com/client_images/ecommerce/client_39/products/3504_hdr_2.jpg
D.

After 4 thousand miles these are working really good (no super heavy subwoofer box though) with my NF210s and the extra 200 pounds of deadening material they are holding on very well.

Performance wise feels like I added a new rear Sway bar! the car is level (front & back) and performs really good, it shines at highway speeds (tracks so good) in windy conditions and takes ramps like a sport car.


D.:burnrubber:

[why?]

good to hear. I think I'll grab two of these when i get a suspension, unless I go coil over of course.