2016 US FE standards!

[CKaelin]

Isn't it great that our cars already meet these standards? I don't understand the statement I heard on the news this morning. "The new standards will cost the average American car owner $3500?" WRONG!

[mrbond]

Well, not all cars meet these standards - suv's for example...and crown victorias, etc.
That is bull what that quote says. Clearly it was made by a very anti-progressive individual who is still very pro-oil industry.

[Zaphod]

Isn't that only for new cars?

I don't see how this will cost the average American car owner $3500.

[marcus]

thats if we make in in 2016.. still have 12/21/2012 to worry about..lolz.

[ka0sx]

thats if we make in in 2016.. still have 12/21/2012 to worry about..lolz.

oh you mean the end of the Maya calendar?
I recommend reading "mysteries of 2012" its a good read provides evidence in both directions.

however i am concerned about the polar switch and the solar cycle at that time.




however i think that standard should have been implemented earlier. Government is always slow to act when corporate interest is involved, unless that corporate interest is now in the governments hands.

[marcus]

2012 gives me a shiver... earth misallignment,, or aliens comes back and take over the world..they have been here before and visited many times..." i believe "..lolz. i think im watching too many x-files.

[eTiMaGo]

they'll just come for you only, marcus :wink:

[marcus]

they'll just come for you only, marcus :wink:

cool... i dont mind really i have been dying to meet them..atleast i know there real b4 i die..or maybe if they take me ill live forever.. cant wait to see toyota yaris 3000 model..lolz.

[SeaYa]

I don't see how this will cost the average American car owner $3500.

Funny, a BBC article ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8056908.stm )said the cars will cost $1300 more to make...so if the $3500 is in fact accurate...guess who's pocketing $2200:rolleyes:

...not that I trust the BBC anymore than...well....anything.

And yes, they seem to ignore that driving a more fuel efficient vehicle will save you money on fuel vs. a less efficient vehicle.

[Thirty-Nine]

I wrote a little editorial on this on my Blog. Check it out and feel free to comment:

http://www.subcompactculture.com/2009/05/editorial-are-new-cafe-standards-good.html

[daf62757]

2012 gives me a shiver... earth misallignment,, or aliens comes back and take over the world..they have been here before and visited many times..." i believe "..lolz. i think im watching too many x-files.

Al Gore has already landed....and the worse is yet to come!

[ka0sx]

Al Gore has already landed....and the worse is yet to come!

I have one word. MAN-BEAR-PIG

[Phaeton]

I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I have the feeling the automakers will start trying to market suv's and full size trucks more since they won't have to get as good mileage.

[GeneW]

Isn't it great that our cars already meet these standards? I don't understand the statement I heard on the news this morning. "The new standards will cost the average American car owner $3500?" WRONG!

If they want a car the size of which they're accustomed I think that figure is probably "fair".

I think that smaller cars will RISE in cost because they are not especially profitable. Economies of scale aside, Toyota is ruthless about reducing "muda" or waste but even they don't make Yaris in the US.

So I think we're gonna see a very modest increase in the price of smaller cars, and a lot of "hybrids" which will not be too cheap. On average I bet we will see an increase up to around $3500 if not more.

Gene

[GeneW]

Clearly it was made by a very anti-progressive individual who is still very pro-oil industry.

Why do you assume that anyone who isn't "green" is being bought off by some "business interest"?

Gene

[tuckevalastin]

These new standards mean that every automaker must average 35mpg between all the cars they sell. Its not about specific models and carmakers are going to have to up the efficiency of all models to up the average or are going to have to start making more of the efficient cars and less of the non efficient ones. Therefore the price of all models will go up. So will it cost all new car buyers thousands YES!

As for the standards I'm completely against them. I don't have a problem with wanting to lower our foreign oil dependence or our co2 emmisions but we should have the freedom to drive what we like even if it has a V8!

[daf62757]

I hope I'm wrong on this one, but I have the feeling the automakers will start trying to market suv's and full size trucks more since they won't have to get as good mileage.

Yeah...and?????

Don't you think people need those for their personal use?

[TLyttle]

Personal use? You mean like the WallyWorld lot full of these pigs, as Mommie goes in to buy the latest pile of Chinese-made junk? Ah, yes, THAT personal use, I saw that the other day...

My hope is that regs like that force this Continent into EVs of some type, hopefully putting an end to the bizarre traffic systems now in place. Every time they show a gridlock on an 8-lane highway (remember that the 8-lane was supposed to cure the gridlock on the previous 4-lane), with heatwaves radiating off the bumper-to-bumper traffic, I think, "something MUST be done, and soon..."

[firemachine69]

Personal use? You mean like the WallyWorld lot full of these pigs, as Mommie goes in to buy the latest pile of Chinese-made junk? Ah, yes, THAT personal use, I saw that the other day...

My hope is that regs like that force this Continent into EVs of some type, hopefully putting an end to the bizarre traffic systems now in place. Every time they show a gridlock on an 8-lane highway (remember that the 8-lane was supposed to cure the gridlock on the previous 4-lane), with heatwaves radiating off the bumper-to-bumper traffic, I think, "something MUST be done, and soon..."




If they actually cared about the traffic flow, they'd remove the half of the drivers that can't properly merge/pass/overtake/give right-of-way.


I was on the Don Valley Parkway from downtown Toronto to Markham a few nights ago... Traffic was rather light... Yet we STILL dropped to lower than 40mph at EVERY on-ramp for the ONE or TWO cars merging onto the highway. Keep in mind, the narrowest portion has THREE lanes.


The goverment, of course, will never remove these pathetic drivers because they'd be:

A) taking away tax dollars

and

B) throwing away votes.

[Phaeton]

I'm not against people having full size trucks or suv's. They serve a purpose, But I don't think they should be daily drivers.
Every guy in my town has a superduty ford, or Dodge lifted on 38" tires to drive 5 miles to work in. Most people with these kinds of vehicles don't use them for the intended purpose.

[kustom play]

I'm not against people having full size trucks or suv's. They serve a purpose, But I don't think they should be daily drivers.
Every guy in my town has a superduty ford, or Dodge lifted on 38" tires to drive 5 miles to work in. Most people with these kinds of vehicles don't use them for the intended purpose.

i would agree

there are all these "look at me i need attention" people driving around in H2's that dont need them and only use them as a status symbol.

the worse part is half the people who have those are struggling to keep up on payments

[tuckevalastin]

For their intended purpose? Are you kidding me? You honestly think you use your car only for its intended purpose? And who gets to decide what that intended purpose is? In my opinion the intended purpose of a car is to enjoyably get its driver from point A to point B. By my standards those trucks are being used for their intended purpose completely.

If I want to drive the biggest, loudest, least fuel efficient truck in the world (which I dont) I have as much right to do so as you driving the smallest, quietest, most fuel efficient micro car in the world.

On the same token If I want to build a house with 6 rooms even though I can live by myself in a house with 1 room then I have the right to do so. Sure I don't NEED a specific room for dining or watching tv but I damn sure have the right to have them. I don't need the ability to haul stuff in a truck bed on most occasions but I have the right to have it.

[aeipee13]

I think fuel economy and car size is going to be an issue in the US for awhile. There is still a lot of room to move around in our country, plus the whole "don't tell me what to do" aspect I feel a lot of Americans have.

I just got back from Italy where Yarii were actually one of the bigger cars on the road. Again older cities more crowding issues similar to Japan. In Italy the car is looked at more like an appliance rather than your ego incarnate. I think Americans should start thinking this way. People rather pay to boost their egos rather than be sensible.

The fact that American car makers are still fighting this (quietly because they are surviving on government checks) shows that they deserve to go out of business. They wonder why they can't sell economy cars for a profit when all the American ones look like and are designed like shit. I am excited for Chrysler and Fiat because well designed ecnoboxes is Fiats specialty. Maybe they can do for Chrysler what Audi did for itself as far as making a come back.

[aeipee13]

Careful or the pot-smoking-gay-abortionist-terrorist are going to get you. Just end it here you live in a different world than the rest of the entire planet.

[supmet]

This used to be a free country.

I grew up mostly in northern california. Lots of trees, not a lot of pollution. Well I went to visit my dad in southern california one summer, not far from LA. I went out for a bike ride the first day I got there - I rode my bike every day in northern california.

I had the worst chest pains I had ever experienced in my life. The smog people in LA deal with every day had crippled me. Do you have freedom to harm my lungs? If your answer is yes, can I attack your lungs with a baseball bat? What's the difference?

Not only are you harming people now, but for years to come..

Its funny how all the people crying about losing their freedom now were the same people who were so eager to give up half of their civil liberties(patriot act).

[Zaphod]

Funny, a BBC article ( http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8056908.stm )said the cars will cost $1300 more to make...so if the $3500 is in fact accurate...guess who's pocketing $2200:rolleyes:

...not that I trust the BBC anymore than...well....anything.

And yes, they seem to ignore that driving a more fuel efficient vehicle will save you money on fuel vs. a less efficient vehicle.
I think there are a few flaws in that logic, though.

The first is this. I you're cheap like me you can always avoid that additional $3500 by putting off buying a new car :)

Of course the second is if you're again a cheapskate like me you can just get a more sensible car, like I don't know ... say a Yaris which kind of meets those requirements already.

Of course, if this is just about fleet averages can't they just make 3 zillion billion versions of the Beat and Volt, Zap and whatever else to keep their average mpg down for the fleet?

Maybe it's oversimplification, but it seems to me like it's just easier to increase gasoline tax nationwide, creating the demand for more efficient vehicles, easing back on the taxes as the price per barrel rises, helping to slow the shock to the economy felt the last time around. It just makes more sense to me as demand is what drives the market more than anything else.

[slothman86]

2012 gives me a shiver... earth misallignment,, or aliens comes back and take over the world..they have been here before and visited many times..." i believe "..lolz. i think im watching too many x-files.

wow. no joking around. I just had a dream (nap) about the planets aligning up or something like that happening in 2012, that's pretty crazy

[marcus]

wow. no joking around. I just had a dream (nap) about the planets aligning up or something like that happening in 2012, that's pretty crazy

did u read this post before the dream..if so its ur subconscious that triggered that dream. ..then again we all die in 2012 nice knowing you guys.

[slothman86]

did u read this post before the dream..if so its ur subconscious that triggered that dream. ..then again we all die in 2012 nice knowing you guys.

nope it was completely random, woke up, checked YW opened this thread...

[mr9865]

I'm glad the standards are being increased, now we can have more choices than just the yaris for a fuel efficient vehicle. I like my focus but the best i can do is 29mpg, if this were law earlier my focus would be getting in the 30s like the yaris and I would be happy.

[supmet]

a bunch of crap to make people think he knows what he's talking about

Ozone, which is the major component of smog, is a strong respiratory irritant and oxidant. Ozone levels tend to be highest in the summer and in the late morning and early afternoon. Short-term exposures can produce dyspnea, chest pain, and airways reactivity. Children who regularly participate in outdoor sports during days on which ozone pollution is high are more likely to develop asthma. Long-term exposure to ozone produces a small, permanent decrease in lung function.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec05/ch057/ch057b.html

go away now

edit: can't believe I'm coming back to argue with someone who thinks pollution doesn't hurt the lungs, but

http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E/b.50752/k.D532/Rankings.htm

LA is #1 for short term and year round particulates..

also, people who live in LA don't usually have chest pain either, but coming from very low pollution to heavy will cause chest pain. Its just like smoking cigarettes. Someone who has smoked for years doesn't even feel it going down. A first time smoker will cough out a lung.

[aeipee13]

tweedle dee
http://www.epa.gov/airnow/health/images/smog.jpg

tweedle dumb
http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/0e/01/20080425081009990026

the LA basin has been the nations worst air for years. Pittsburgh beat out LA in 2008 and you're proud of that? air pollution is a problem if it comes from a car or factory. I think it's really bold to call either Bush or Obama a dictator or say they are acting like one. What's your plan and what would you do if you where the leader of our nation? How would you silence the people who want to see you taking action?

What are you doing to make things better? Complaining about Neo-cons is for pussies not Americans. You bought your Yaris for economic reasons or environmental ones. Laws requiring the US to join the rest of the world and pushing car technology forward is a good thing.

If the Good Ol' Boys can't handle it they should loose there jobs like so many other hard working Americans. I don't think we should have bailed those assholes out in the first place. We should have bailed out the factory workers the CEOs screwed over with their lack of foresight and creativity. Then found them new CEOs with some vision because the Good Ol' Boys won't act unless a law is passed.

[daf62757]

I grew up mostly in northern california. Lots of trees, not a lot of pollution. Well I went to visit my dad in southern california one summer, not far from LA. I went out for a bike ride the first day I got there - I rode my bike every day in northern california.

I had the worst chest pains I had ever experienced in my life. The smog people in LA deal with every day had crippled me. Do you have freedom to harm my lungs? If your answer is yes, can I attack your lungs with a baseball bat? What's the difference?

Not only are you harming people now, but for years to come..

Its funny how all the people crying about losing their freedom now were the same people who were so eager to give up half of their civil liberties(patriot act).

What liberties were given up for the Patriot Act? Maybe you have been tuned into MSNBC too long? Or maybe your are a terrorist and the right to plan terrorist acts was, in your opinion a right!

[TLyttle]

Tapping your phone is okay, is it? Silly me, I would have thought that would have interfered with a right to privacy...

But if it's okay with you, I must be wrong.

[ka0sx]

What liberties were given up for the Patriot Act? Maybe you have been tuned into MSNBC too long? Or maybe your are a terrorist and the right to plan terrorist acts was, in your opinion a right!

why are you still wasting precious oxygen?

[aeipee13]

daf thinks people's political views are FOXnews or MSNBC. In reality, there is a lot of left, right, up, and down views. Visit the coast sometime daf. Just because I want to be able to smoke weed in the streets doesn't mean i don't want to be doing it with open borders and no military power. Maybe I want to execute murderers and rapists but think a woman still has a right to choose. Just open your eyes. everyone is different and we all live here together.

[GeneW]

Ozone, which is the major component of smog, is a strong respiratory irritant and oxidant. Ozone levels tend to be highest in the summer and in the late morning and early afternoon. Short-term exposures can produce dyspnea, chest pain, and airways reactivity. Children who regularly participate in outdoor sports during days on which ozone pollution is high are more likely to develop asthma. Long-term exposure to ozone produces a small, permanent decrease in lung function.

http://www.merck.com/mmpe/sec05/ch057/ch057b.html


Do you remember the odor? Ozone has a smell akin to the odor produced by lightning, which is a large generator of the gas.

Here's what an online MSDS has to say about Ozone....

"Causes dryness of the mouth, coughing, and irritates the nose, throat, and chest. May cause difficulty in breathing, headache, and fatigue. The characteristic sharp, irritating odor is readily detectable at low concentrations (0.01 to 0.05 ppm).

OSHA PEL limits follow...

Exposure Guidelines:
OSHA PEL: 0.10-ppm PEL/TLV

If you read this carefully you'll note that you can smell Ozone at OSHA PEL levels... Did you in fact smell ozone?

Here's the "money shot"....

"Ozone is an unstable gas which, at normal temperatures, decomposes to diatomic oxygen."

http://www.ozoneapplications.com/info/ozone_msds.htm


This is from a European Site...

"Toxicity data

IHL-HMN TCLO thought to be near 1 ppm/2h.
IHL-CAT LC50 34500 ppb/3h
IHL-GPG LC50 24800 ppb/3h
IHL-HAM LC50 10500 ppb/4h
IHL-HMN LCLO 50 ppm/30m

LC50 lethal concentration 50 percent kill
LCLo lowest published lethal concentration
LD50 lethal dose 50 percent kill
LDlo lowest published lethal dose

http://msds.chem.ox.ac.uk/OZ/ozone.html

The long and short of it is that I don't think you had problems with Ozone. If you had problems they weren't large enough to warrant a trip to the Hospital, where a competent person would have evaluated you for the CAUSE of your complaints (and your suppositions of same decades later).

go away now

edit: can't believe I'm coming back to argue with someone who thinks pollution doesn't hurt the lungs, but

http://www.lungusa.org/site/c.dvLUK9O0E/b.50752/k.D532/Rankings.htm

LA is #1 for short term and year round particulates..

also, people who live in LA don't usually have chest pain either, but coming from very low pollution to heavy will cause chest pain. Its just like smoking cigarettes. Someone who has smoked for years doesn't even feel it going down. A first time smoker will cough out a lung.

I'll take your little snit as confirmation that nobody took you to the ER. Otherwise you'd have furnished proof of respiratory distress. You might have had reaction to pollen, fungi, food, or some other environmental assault. You just THINK you were affected and use this supposition as "justification" to launch onto someone who doesn't share your joy at our Almighty Government saving us from industry.

Look, do your homework. Where I come from I deal with facts and the facts do not necessarily support your claims of past injuries or support your current joys at Our Masters in DC telling us what we're gonna be driving.

Gene

[daf62757]

Tapping your phone is okay, is it? Silly me, I would have thought that would have interfered with a right to privacy...

But if it's okay with you, I must be wrong.

Well they only tap suspected terrorists OUTSIDE of the country. I guess that still upsets you. You don't mind the idea of taking away people's right to choose the car they want, but you sure are upset over tapping suspected terrorist.

It no wonder an idiot like Obama won!

[daf62757]

why are you still wasting precious oxygen?

Why did your mother not practice good birth control?

[daf62757]

daf thinks people's political views are FOXnews or MSNBC. In reality, there is a lot of left, right, up, and down views. Visit the coast sometime daf. Just because I want to be able to smoke weed in the streets doesn't mean i don't want to be doing it with open borders and no military power. Maybe I want to execute murderers and rapists but think a woman still has a right to choose. Just open your eyes. everyone is different and we all live here together.

I can assure you I have a good grasp of the wide range of people's political views and news choices. You just appear to exhibit the intelligence of a brain dead liberal!

[GeneW]

tweedle dee
http://www.epa.gov/airnow/health/images/smog.jpg

tweedle dumb
http://www.aolcdn.com/aolnews_photos/0e/01/20080425081009990026

the LA basin has been the nations worst air for years. Pittsburgh beat out LA in 2008 and you're proud of that? air pollution is a problem if it comes from a car or factory. I think it's really bold to call either Bush or Obama a dictator or say they are acting like one. What's your plan and what would you do if you where the leader of our nation? How would you silence the people who want to see you taking action?

What are you doing to make things better? Complaining about Neo-cons is for pussies not Americans. You bought your Yaris for economic reasons or environmental ones. Laws requiring the US to join the rest of the world and pushing car technology forward is a good thing.

If the Good Ol' Boys can't handle it they should loose there jobs like so many other hard working Americans. I don't think we should have bailed those assholes out in the first place. We should have bailed out the factory workers the CEOs screwed over with their lack of foresight and creativity. Then found them new CEOs with some vision because the Good Ol' Boys won't act unless a law is passed.

*yawn*

Did you know that one of our "ozone detectors" is parked in Clairton, home of Kopper Chemical's Coking plant? Doesn't sound like a spot with an "average" concentration, huh?

Did you also know that Pittsburgh has the second highest number of rainy days in the US after Seattle? How is it that San Fransisco does so well with their fog but nasty old Pittsburgh with its frequent rains does worse than LA?

Sounds to me like someone is rigging the numbers.... but hey, if it saves one life it's worth it, huh?

By the way, watch who you call a "good ole boy". Lot of folks out this way are honest folk who just want to make a living. We don't need your kind butting in to our lives.

Gene

[GeneW]

Here's GASP's view on the topic....

"Today the American Lung Association (ALA) released its 2009 State of the Air report. Once again, the Pittsburgh metropolitan area was ranked worst in the nation for short term fine particle pollution (PM 2.5). In past years the ALA’s findings have attracted significant attention in the Pittsburgh region, and several misconceptions about the nature of the ALA’s findings have become widely accepted. GASP has created this fact sheet in an effort to correct some of the more common misconceptions and provide a concise summary of the ALA’s findings as they apply to the Pittsburgh region."

I appreciate GASP clarifying the monitoring status of Clairton, but I already knew that they had other stations.

This is interesting....

"During the 2005-2007 period examined in the current ALA report, values from eight to twelve PM 2.5 monitor sites in Allegheny County were examined each day and the highest value was selected. This same selection methodology is employed in each of the 527 counties studied."

Not the average or mean but the worst value.... samples from how many monitors in total around this area? They do not say, only that the values of eight to twelve such monitors were "selected" and the "worse value taken".

The rest of the area's air could be as clean as that found in the Amazon basin, but the "data" here is based upon the "worst value". As if the rest of the area's air reflected this value or something more or less....

Where I come from this is not exactly good science.... but what do I know? I don't pretend to want to save the children or make Big Brother drop his mighty fist on those "exploiters".

Gene

[GeneW]

One other thing....

Acetlyaldehyde is produced in the brain and liver by the consumption of alcohol. It's the chemical that actually makes you "drunk".

It's also used to make plastics...

Here's the MSDS..

Engineering Controls: Use explosion-proof ventilation equipment. Facilities storing or utilizing this material should be equipped with an eyewash facility and a safety shower. Use adequate general or local exhaust ventilation to keep airborne concentrations below the permissible exposure limits.
Exposure Limits
Chemical Name ACGIH NIOSH OSHA - Final PELs

Acetaldehyde 25 ppm Ceiling 2000 ppm IDLH 200 ppm TWA; 360 mg/m3 TWA

OSHA Vacated PELs: Acetaldehyde : 100 ppm TWA; 180 mg/m3 TWA

Now here's my question....

Ozone is some sort of awful thing, like phosgene gas. Yet here was have a chemical which has PELs maybe one thousand times higher to breathe...but it's okie fine to drink a precursor of the stuff.


Reminds me of Limbaugh's little program about "dihydrogen monoxide". Stuff is lethal, people drown every day.

Gene

[supmet]

The long and short of it is that I don't think you had problems with Ozone.

Neither do I - want a cookie?

I just googled pollution chest pain to shut you up and that merck site was the first thing that popped up.

I don't care if you think pollution causes chest pain - you have proven time and time again you will think what you want to think, and no amount of reasoning or proof will change that. It is a simple fact, and I'm not going to waste any more of my time arguing this point.

[aeipee13]

I can assure you I have a good grasp of the wide range of people's political views and news choices. You just appear to exhibit the intelligence of a brain dead liberal!

stoned out of my mind liberal is more accurate. but really I'm not. You just live a sheltered life. Stay in your bubble and have fun.

I voted for Ron Paul who is Republican and I am registered Independent. I even have more than one nationality and more than one skin tone in my family. Does that clear things up?

Welcome to the real world Neo.

http://images.quizfarm.com/1113617147morpheus.jpg

[aeipee13]

Gene, you're not a good ol' boy the Auto CEOs are. I think i don't get your point about air pollution in your area versus mine or maybe i just don't care to decypher your rant.

To answer your question about Ozone. Ozone creates free radicals to form in the blood, which last time i checked is not a good thing. If you want the science go talk to your doctor.

Does it really matter exactly what chemical or particle of dust is causing breathing problems. It's smog and smog makes your lungs hurt. You can break down what smog is made of elsewhere.

[Astroman]

Done.