In regards to understeer.......

[anonymous user]

Being this is my first FWD car, I have a few questions. In theory, if you stiffen the rear springs only, while leaving the front ones as a softer spring rate,
this should allow your front end to rotate more easily correct?
And if so, why don't more people attempt to do this?

[IllusionX]

That's why people add rear sway bar. To allow less understeer. To my knowledge, there aren't many springs out there that are stiffer in the rear.

[cali yaris]

Sway bar is the best bang for your buck to stiffen the rear only. I haven't found stiffer springs that keep stock ride height, or you could just change out the rear ones.

[scape]

you could always buy two sets (trd's or maybe tanabe df's in back and tanabe nf's in front)... doesn't seem cost effective, but would weigh less than the addition of an antisway bar (and may work out to be cheaper). the back may look dropped a tad though

the question is: how effective is this?

[Tamago]

add camber in the front

play with tire pressures.

install rear swaybar

get a little toe-out in the rear

should fix all your issues :)

[Loren]

Being this is my first FWD car, I have a few questions. In theory, if you stiffen the rear springs only, while leaving the front ones as a softer spring rate,
this should allow your front end to rotate more easily correct?
And if so, why don't more people attempt to do this?
You've got it backwards, at least part of it.

Stiffening the rear will make the REAR of the car rotate. If the front of the car is "rotating", that's understeer. You don't need to modify anything to get understeer to happen.

Before you touch anything on the suspension, go find some autocross and figure out how to drive it. Learn what understeer really IS before you go trying to cure it.

Why don't more people do it? Because most people don't know how to deal with oversteer, that's why almost every modern car is designed to understeer. It's predictable and safe for the average driver.

[Tamago]

loren, by rotate, he meant turn.

[anonymous user]

loren, by rotate, he meant turn.
Correct.

[anonymous user]

I'm used to oversteer. My current auto-x setup has 27mm front and rear swaybars, as well as r-comp. 255/45/17's. I know how to drive, just can't explain in words sometimes what i'm trying to get across.

I wanted to do set up the yaris similarly, so i installed spc camber bolts in the front struts. I already have a trd RSB and tires. I added an ultra racing room bar to stiffen the chassis up a bit, as well as turboyaris's fabbed endlinks up front. I think the car handles well, turns like a drea, but i need to adjust the camber a bit to regain some straight-line stability.
I agree that oversteer is difficult to control if you have little experience with it, however i feel more confident at the car's (or my) limits with it.

Thanks for your guys comments. I was talking a bit to some honda fit owners about the upcoming auto-x season.

[anonymous user]

.......

[anonymous user]

Come July, we'll see how my car does at our first event of the year.

[supmet]

I'm not sure what it would do to the handling, but I think that would be one aggressive looking yaris.

What about DFs in the front and tigertecs in the rear?

[Tamago]

tire pressures. play with them.

[anonymous user]

tire pressures. play with them.

Yeah, i think it will be key. I'm still learning how to setup the car. Prior to this i just drive the piss out of them.

[Loren]

Coming from RWD to FWD, you need to learn to REALLY modulate the throttle. If you had a high-powered RWD car, you already know how to do this to some extent, but you'll need to tune yourself to doing it at a different time and for different reasons.

Learn to feel what the front of the car is doing. The back end is just following for the most part, it's the front that you need to keep control of. You can feel it when the understeer starts, and you need to understand at that very moment WHAT is causing it.

Did you brake too late and too hard for the turn? (that works exactly the same as RWD) If so, then you'll need to ease up on the brakes AND the steering angle to get the front tires to bite so that you can ease back into your turn.

Are you trying to accelerate through the turn and overpowering the front tires? (this is the common problem when people come to FWD from RWD, or are just plain over-agressive newbs) If so, you need to back off the throttle AND the steering angle to get the front tires to bite so that you can ease back into the turn.

The important thing about power-induced understeer is to RECOGNIZE that you're doing it, and what your natural tendency is when it happens. Almost everybody, when they feel the car start to understeer, their brain says "car isn't turning, must turn wheel more", which is WRONG! If you're already understeering and you turn the wheel MORE, you're not going to solve anything, you're just going to continue to understeer. So, remember that if the front tires aren't gripping, you need to get their grip back... ease off of the throttle AND the steering angle until you feel them hook up, then try to get back into your turn.

FWD autocrossing is a hoot once you get used to it. Especially in something like a Yaris.

[scape]

@ Loren

Well said. I realized that I posted the reply to the OP and it was backwards information, I didn't realize this until I sat in my car and drove it home-- it's only when you physically drive your car, with some enthusiasm and pointers, when you realize what's really going on.

[anonymous user]

Loren,

I'm actually coming from AWD. My goal in the next few years is to practice FWD first (the yaris), then pick up a RWD vehicle to learn that platform. I was thinking mr-2, lotus elise, or 370 z. We'll see. I'm working on FWD for now.

[aeipee13]

AWD can be wacky. loosing grip in AWD? floor it and point the direction you want to go. Basically throw that all out the window when learning FF or FR driving. AWD is like the evil cousin of the two in terms of "what to do."

[HTM Yaris]

I suggest getting your skill level WAAAAY up before driving a MR2 or Elise spirited . With these cars having the engine in the rear , it makes them susceptable to snap oversteer (especially in the wet ). The Elise is less susceptable than the MR2 due to the better tuned suspension , stickier tires and lower center of gravity . But even the mighty Elise will spin in the hands of someone who isn't up to par with their skills .

[jkuchta]

This car responds to very slight differances in tire pressures front to rear...

Just like Tomago and Loren said, play with that first.

I was able to dial out all of the understeer with completely stock suspension and no swaybar by running the rears like 3-4 psi higher than the fronts (34psi front, 38psi rear HOT). The car would pivot really nicely, and slight moments of oversteer were very controlable (i.e. a ton of FUN!).

I was running on 500 tread wear street tires, so the higher pressures were needed to keep the car off the sidewalls (though a trip to the Streets of Willow proved that there's really no way to keep a car that's driven hard off the sidewalls of a set of street tires, no matter how high the pressures are!)

The addition of a rear swaybar, better tires, and stiffer springs and shocks would have allowed more equal (and lower) tire pressures, as well as way more grip.


Tire pressures are one of those things you can play with a lot at the track, and it takes almost no time...yields almost instant feedback....and costs nothing...just don't change pressures more than 1-2 psi at a time.

[regal]

What about pure potential, I heard 1g. With my trd shock, tokico blues, and rear sway bar I'm just not seeing it. It tends to dive into oversteer. There must be more potential out of this car.

[Loren]

You can do anything you want with the suspension, if you don't put good tires on it, you're not going to pull a lot of G's.

[Tamago]

What about pure potential, I heard 1g. With my trd shock, tokico blues, and rear sway bar I'm just not seeing it. It tends to dive into oversteer. There must be more potential out of this car.

beating a dead horse here, but you bought crappy tires lol

[scape]

someone posted an article about achieving 1g or greater in some tests, and the only reason the yaris seemed to pull it off was very specialized, and probably expensive, track-only tires. the suspension mods they did (perhaps minimal but I believe it was coil-overs) acheived .86g from the stock .75 without the tire change.

[scape]

http://www.modified.com/news/0708_sccp_lateral_g_skidpad_testing/challenges.html
about 60% down the page, do a word search for yaris

[SailDesign]

beating a dead horse here, but you bought crappy tires lol

And you still haven't mentioned tire pressures - they are as important as susp. upgrades - really!
But that would be beating the dead horse again, so I'l shut up - none so deaf as those that won't listen.... :iono:
(not you, Tamago, the OP)

[Tamago]

add camber in the front

play with tire pressures.

install rear swaybar

get a little toe-out in the rear

should fix all your issues :)

tire pressures. play with them.

And you still haven't mentioned tire pressures - they are as important as susp. upgrades - really!
But that would be beating the dead horse again, so I'l shut up - none so deaf as those that won't listen.... :iono:
(not you, Tamago, the OP)

tire pressures?

[scape]

perhaps he meant specific settings found useful?

[SailDesign]

tire pressures?

One day he'll get it. But I expect to have at least one more post deleted by then. Not complaining, coz it wasn't a particularly nice post, but I really hope he gets it soon.....

Off-topic, is there a way to find out which mod deleted the post, so that I can ask which part of it offended? would make recurring offensive posts less likely. :smile:

[Tamago]

perhaps he meant specific settings found useful?

more in the rear than the front ;)

where in S florida are you?

[scape]

near fort lauderdale, but not for long-- planning on moving to south carolina for a temp position

[Tamago]

near fort lauderdale, but not for long-- planning on moving to south carolina for a temp position

ah! i'm downtown ft laud!

interested in hub spacers with free installation? :biggrin:

[regal]

beating a dead horse here, but you bought crappy tires lol


They have never lost grip, what else does a tire do?

[cleong]

A grippier tire allows the car to enter the corner at a higher speed, maintain a higher cornering speed, and allows you to get onto the throttle sooner on the exit.

If your crap tires have never lost grip, then perhaps you aren't on the tire's limit yet.

[regal]

Its not a tire issue, when I toss into a turn the whole car's momemtum flies foward pushing me into the steering wheel, Its like the entire body of the car is pushed foward like being rearended. With my other cars Civic, Jetta, BMW, etc you enter a turn pushed back firmly in your seat.

[SailDesign]

Its not a tire issue, when I toss into a turn the whole car's momemtum flies foward pushing me into the steering wheel, Its like the entire body of the car is pushed foward like being rearended. With my other cars Civic, Jetta, BMW, etc you enter a turn pushed back firmly in your seat.

That sounds simply as though you are hitting the brake instead of the throttle pedal. Is there another way you can describe this that might help us understand.
Also, you ask about what else a tire does other than grip. The sidewalls are very important, and tire pressures play into the eway they behave in cornering - hence all the beating of dead horses about tire pressures. A flimsy sidwall (like most OEM tires) will be lovely and comfy, but distort under cornering, allowing the tire to "scrub" and produce understeer. Higher pressures help with those, but stiffer sidewalls on better tires do more.

[cleong]

How are you entering corners, on power or off power? It is usually recommended to finish all your braking in a straightline, and feather your throttle through the turn until you reach the apex where you nail it to the floor.

On the other hand, the Yaris's seat is particularly high, which may amplify the G-forces beyond what you are familiar with. Physics remain the same regardless of which car you're in.

[Tamago]

trail braking in a smaller FWD car seems to help VERY much with rotation

[scape]

@ tamago,
downtown ftl is nice ;D although riverfront has changed a bit over the years, bit more run down now haha

[regal]

On the other hand, the Yaris's seat is particularly high, which may amplify the G-forces beyond what you are familiar with. Physics remain the same regardless of which car you're in.



Agree on the seat, Need to find a way to lean it back.

[TheRealEnth]

the flooring at the apex is the most important part...

[largeorangefont]

Loren,

I'm actually coming from AWD. My goal in the next few years is to practice FWD first (the yaris), then pick up a RWD vehicle to learn that platform. I was thinking mr-2, lotus elise, or 370 z. We'll see. I'm working on FWD for now.

There is your problem.

You can't drive a FWD or RWD car like an AWD car.

You can't get on the gas to straighten the car out and the car will not turn if you are threashold breaking and start to turn. It sounds like you are overdriving the car into the corners.

Think of a FWD car as only being able to do one thing at a time. It can either go, steer or brake. Near the limit you can only do one of these things at a time. As you get better you will learn how to blend them together.

Do your breaking before the corner, take a smooth line off power to the apex then get back to the gas on corner exit.

A Yaris is a momentum car. If the front or rear tires are sliding you are doing it wrong, and losing time.

[scape]

is engine braking recommended at all before the apex while going into a sharp turn?

[Tamago]

is engine braking recommended at all before the apex while going into a sharp turn?

depends on many factors.

alignment setup
tires being used
tire pressures
what gear you're in/how fast you're going


sometime swing by the shop i'll take you for a spin, show you what i'm talking about :D

[regal]

how much toe out is recomended in the rear?

[Tamago]

how much toe out is recomended in the rear?

if you can get 0 toe, that's ideal. i'm running 1/8" toe out each side

[jkuchta]

There is your problem.

You can't drive a FWD or RWD car like an AWD car.

You can't get on the gas to straighten the car out and the car will not turn if you are threashold breaking and start to turn. It sounds like you are overdriving the car into the corners.

Think of a FWD car as only being able to do one thing at a time. It can either go, steer or brake. Near the limit you can only do one of these things at a time. As you get better you will learn how to blend them together.

Do your breaking before the corner, take a smooth line off power to the apex then get back to the gas on corner exit.

A Yaris is a momentum car. If the front or rear tires are sliding you are doing it wrong, and losing time.


Actually, the yaris HB on stock suspension responds quite well to trail-braking. With the upgraded rear pads, my little hatch was turning in and taking a set really well at the Roval. Plus, the added weight transfer on the front end provided by the trail-braking allowed for slightly higher entry speeds in the moderate to slower corners (turn 3..right after NASCAR turn 2, that hairpin that leads onto the infield straight under the pedestrian bridge, and the final set of lefts which lead back onto the front tri-oval.....just to name a few).

BEWARE!! Trail-braking can get you into trouble if you do it wrong! Learn how to enter corners fast off the brakes first (like Largeorangefont says!), and then learn how to enter them faster on the brakes.

Also, being smooth getting OFF of the brakes is just as important (maybe even more so) as being smooth getting on the brakes. You can brake harder if the car is settled.

[jkuchta]

is engine braking recommended at all before the apex while going into a sharp turn?


Never enter a corner with the clutch pedal depressed.

[largeorangefont]

Actually, the yaris HB on stock suspension responds quite well to trail-braking. With the upgraded rear pads, my little hatch was turning in and taking a set really well at the Roval. Plus, the added weight transfer on the front end provided by the trail-braking allowed for slightly higher entry speeds in the moderate to slower corners (turn 3..right after NASCAR turn 2, that hairpin that leads onto the infield straight under the pedestrian bridge, and the final set of lefts which lead back onto the front tri-oval.....just to name a few).

BEWARE!! Trail-braking can get you into trouble if you do it wrong! Learn how to enter corners fast off the brakes first (like Largeorangefont says!), and then learn how to enter them faster on the brakes.

Also, being smooth getting OFF of the brakes is just as important (maybe even more so) as being smooth getting on the brakes. You can brake harder if the car is settled.


Agreed, and trailbreaking does help the car rotate, but you just can slam the brakes, throw it into the corner and power out like you might be able to with an AWD car.

There is a difference between trail-braking and late-breaking. From the discussions here it sounds like most people are trying to overdrive the car into the corners.

[regal]

What about these ULTRA RACING rear under braces seems these would firm up the rear and help with the understeer?

[anonymous user]

And you still haven't mentioned tire pressures - they are as important as susp. upgrades - really!
But that would be beating the dead horse again, so I'l shut up - none so deaf as those that won't listen.... :iono:
(not you, Tamago, the OP)

Are you referring to me? What am I NOT listening to?

[anonymous user]

There is your problem.

You can't drive a FWD or RWD car like an AWD car.

You can't get on the gas to straighten the car out and the car will not turn if you are threashold breaking and start to turn. It sounds like you are overdriving the car into the corners.

Think of a FWD car as only being able to do one thing at a time. It can either go, steer or brake. Near the limit you can only do one of these things at a time. As you get better you will learn how to blend them together.

Do your breaking before the corner, take a smooth line off power to the apex then get back to the gas on corner exit.

A Yaris is a momentum car. If the front or rear tires are sliding you are doing it wrong, and losing time.

I figured just as much. I've been told to drive this thing like a early 90's miata, except this car has no power, so i'll avoid using unnecessary braking.
I've completely smoked the front brakes, and as impressive as it was for spectators, it didn't help my times out much.
We have about a month to go before i can report on the status of out first event of the scca season.
Until tehn, i'll be anxiously awaiting my turn by reading about everyone elses regions.

[largeorangefont]

What about these ULTRA RACING rear under braces seems these would firm up the rear and help with the understeer?

If you want to waste your money, sure.


If you want to spend it on something that will help, get their 23mm rear sway bar, a performance alignment and shim the rear hubs.

[largeorangefont]

I figured just as much. I've been told to drive this thing like a early 90's miata, except this car has no power, so i'll avoid using unnecessary braking.
I've completely smoked the front brakes, and as impressive as it was for spectators, it didn't help my times out much.
We have about a month to go before i can report on the status of out first event of the scca season.
Until tehn, i'll be anxiously awaiting my turn by reading about everyone elses regions.


If you concentrate on keeping up momentum and not sliding the car you will be much faster and easier on equipment.
:headbang:

[SailDesign]

Are you referring to me? What am I NOT listening to?

No, not you, anon. Regal.

[anonymous user]

No, not you, anon. Regal.
Ah, i see. When i heard you referring to the O.P., that was me, the thread starter. Peace. :wink:

[SailDesign]

Ah, i see. When i heard you referring to the O.P., that was me, the thread starter. Peace. :wink:

Confused with all the threads regal has going regarding his handling woes. 'Pologies!