My suspension setup: Breakfast Blend for the angry panda

[Tamago]

for those of you following This thread here on yarisworld (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18664), i've spoken a bit about my new suspension setup.

i know this is not a yaris, but the basics will apply and hopefully inspire some of you to "try this at home" (or maybe convince me to build some custom coilover sleeve kits for the yaris front end? :iono:)

thanks to kngrsll (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/member.php?u=1688) for the killer deal on the Koni Yellows! if it wasn't for you i wouldn't be even doing this project right now!

my suspension setup will be the following

Koni Yellows (Sport) adjustable shocks/struts

Ksport rear perches and springs (the plan is to upgrade the rear spring for something stiffer)

AFCO (http://www.afabcorp.com/AFCO_Dynatech_USbrake/merchant.mvc?Screen=SFNT&Store_Code=A) front coilover sleeves and 400lb 7" race springs

Things i know i'll have to modify:

The koni yellows have an upper spanner that is about 2.120" in diameter. this poses a problem as the sleeve kit is a 2" diameter. i will be turning the strut body tonight in the lathe to accomodate the sleeve ID

The AFCO upper spring mount hole diameter is about .10" larger than desired, so will have to be either welded in/machined out or i'll build a bushing sleeve to keep them from rattling

The Ksport rear springs are a puny 2.2KG/mm rate. Ksport swore up and down that they couldn't sell me any other rate than 2.2kg/mm so i guess i'll have to live with it for now. I will also address the problem that other companies have had by installing limiting straps or cables to keep the rear suspension from extending fully unless manually released. this will keep the rear springs from popping out if the car were to go airborne.

That's it for now! i think i'll cut the strut bodies down tonight before leaving the shop, so i'll snap a couple shots of that process

~joel

[Tamago]

the strut top nut is just a little bit over 2"
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/1.jpg

wrap it with masking tape
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/2.jpg

chuck it up in the hollow spindle lathe and go to town!
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/3.jpg

gives me about .006" clearance on either side for installing the sleeves!
http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/4.jpg

not pictured, i painted the bare metal to keep it from rusting :)

next up, finding something to shim out the smaller body diameter so the sleeve doesn't rattle. Ground Control uses O-Rings, but i think i can come up with something LESS ghetto! (believe it or not, lol!)

[Tamago]

Thanks to a good friend at Panzer Suspension Development, i've come up with a solution for the lower perch area.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/5-1.jpg

the sleeve would not fit nicely into this hole, and would most likely self-destruct without help

i had a couple spare aluminum hubcentric rings kicking around and decided to try one in the cavity

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/5.jpg[/IMG]

but the edge is too thick, so back to the lathe we go!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/6.jpg

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/7-1.jpg

perfect fit!

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/8.jpg

when the sleeves arrive i'll weld them onto these lower perches and we should be nice and solid!

[kngrsll]

awesome... cant wait to see how it turns out!

[mrbond]

Wow, very nicely done! You know, you're lucky your car has more suspension options available currently than ours. Do you have a dyno of those shocks?

[kngrsll]

Wow, very nicely done! You know, you're lucky your car has more suspension options available currently than ours. Do you have a dyno of those shocks?

it doesnt really have much more really... they have koni's, we have the HTS, as well as the blues. They both have several off the shelf coilovers. I think we are lucky to have micro image to get us the parts he has found...

[lilredrocket]

I have been looking at the Ksport SS coilovers but if you did a custom job (which I'm sure will be better not as pretty but better) I would go for that deal. Custom Penguin Garage Coilovers hells yeah!!!

[yarisugi]

I assume after you got your coilover setup, you're going to eliminate most of the spring perch (except the bottom half)?

[CompanyXPaladin]

Custom Penguin Garage Coilovers hells yeah!!!

FTW :biggrin:

[Tamago]

I assume after you got your coilover setup, you're going to eliminate most of the spring perch (except the bottom half)?

i'll be keeping the lower spring perch for at least a few months to see how i like the coilover sleeves. no need to destroy hundreds of dollars of resale value ;)

[cali yaris]

:clap:

[Loren]

I think if I had access to a lathe, other machine equipment, and a welder... I'd be a very dangerous person.

Hey, for your upper perch hole that's too large, just do a poly or delrin bushing. Could even just wrap it with tape or something. Keep in mind that once everything is together, the upper perch doesn't move. You'll want to keep it from rattling, but it doesn't need to be anything fancy.

[Tamago]

I think if I had access to a lathe, other machine equipment, and a welder... I'd be a very dangerous person.

Hey, for your upper perch hole that's too large, just do a poly or delrin bushing. Could even just wrap it with tape or something. Keep in mind that once everything is together, the upper perch doesn't move. You'll want to keep it from rattling, but it doesn't need to be anything fancy.

yes, i've been dangerous for years now :biggrin: it's how my turbo project was even possible (having a full shop at my disposal lol)

Loren, i'll probably pick up some bushing material from www.smallparts.com or maybe if i'm lucky, Lowes.

i'm dabbling with the idea of my own camber/caster plates right now. we'll see what comes of it!

[Loren]

I think camber plates on a Yaris is severe overkill. With slotted strut bottom holes on the K-Sport kit, I can easily get almost 3 degrees negative. You could get another degree or so by using crash bolts.

Camber plates wouldn't gain you anything. On a car with a real hood, you'd gain ease of adjustability and reference marks for repeatability with good camber plates... but think about how much trouble it would be just to get in there to ADJUST camber plates on a Yaris! Seems like a huge wasted effort to me.

[Tamago]

I think camber plates on a Yaris is severe overkill. With slotted strut bottom holes on the K-Sport kit, I can easily get almost 3 degrees negative. You could get another degree or so by using crash bolts.

Camber plates wouldn't gain you anything. On a car with a real hood, you'd gain ease of adjustability and reference marks for repeatability with good camber plates... but think about how much trouble it would be just to get in there to ADJUST camber plates on a Yaris! Seems like a huge wasted effort to me.

i dont' drive a yaris? ;)

[kngrsll]

I think camber plates on a Yaris is severe overkill. With slotted strut bottom holes on the K-Sport kit, I can easily get almost 3 degrees negative. You could get another degree or so by using crash bolts.

Camber plates wouldn't gain you anything. On a car with a real hood, you'd gain ease of adjustability and reference marks for repeatability with good camber plates... but think about how much trouble it would be just to get in there to ADJUST camber plates on a Yaris! Seems like a huge wasted effort to me.


Another reason to go to camber plates is to gain some shock stroke. But to me, it looks as if we have great stroke length with the factory struts when the car is lowered (which, to me, is unusal in cars with struts.) My 240 had bottoming out issues when you lowered the car on stock struts, as did every other nissan or subaru i ever heard of. Perhaps that is a function of the body/chassis shape, the yaris is built kinda high, while the 240 was built very low and sleek, limiting shock travel.

[Tamago]

Another reason to go to camber plates is to gain some shock stroke. But to me, it looks as if we have great stroke length with the factory struts when the car is lowered (which, to me, is unusal in cars with struts.) My 240 had bottoming out issues when you lowered the car on stock struts, as did every other nissan or subaru i ever heard of. Perhaps that is a function of the body/chassis shape, the yaris is built kinda high, while the 240 was built very low and sleek, limiting shock travel.

i measured 7" of travel on the koni's yesterday :D

[Loren]

I've not laid hands on an xA, but don't they have about the same hood/windshield/top shock mount geometry? Doesn't look like the upper strut mount clearance under the hood would be much different.

[Tamago]

I've not laid hands on an xA, but don't they have about the same hood/windshield/top shock mount geometry? Doesn't look like the upper strut mount clearance under the hood would be much different.

well, let's put it this way. i can remove my struts easily without taking off the wiper tray :) we have a 3-bolt upper mount as well, which aids in camber plate useability.

how would you get a camber plate to work on your single-bolt setup anyway? :curious:

[Loren]

how would you get a camber plate to work on your single-bolt setup anyway? :curious:
Damned if I know! There are bolt holes they use for the strut tower brace that might be usable. Or do a completely custom weld-in camber plate, or drill some holes to bolt to.

Never really thought about it because it just doesn't seem feasible due to space constraints, and I don't feel that I need it, anyway.

[Tamago]

Damned if I know! There are bolt holes they use for the strut tower brace that might be usable. Or do a completely custom weld-in camber plate, or drill some holes to bolt to.

Never really thought about it because it just doesn't seem feasible due to space constraints, and I don't feel that I need it, anyway.

you really don't. a slotte strut or camber bolt is just fine, but i like the idea of being able to run -3degrees up front on race day and dial it back for tire life wihout having to hit the alignment rack every time. can't really do that very well with camber bolts IMO

[kngrsll]

Damned if I know! There are bolt holes they use for the strut tower brace that might be usable. Or do a completely custom weld-in camber plate, or drill some holes to bolt to.

Never really thought about it because it just doesn't seem feasible due to space constraints, and I don't feel that I need it, anyway.

this is what i would do. i thought about trying the general application Ground Control mounts before, but i am with Loren, we don't really need travel and we can get camber below. It would be nice to have some caster, but we could also do that with an offset LCA bushing in the rear most portion like the subaru anti-lift kits.

http://www.ground-control-store.com/products/description.php/II=136/CA=97

http://www.perrinperformance.com/products/show/432/Positive-Steering-Response-System?category=8&model=26

[Tamago]

the problem with drilling holes is....

you're no longer legal in most SCCA classes besides Prepared/Modified etc.

not a place for a 1wd 100hp econobox :(

[Loren]

I drove cross country 8,000 miles with almost 3 degrees of front camber without tire wear issues. I wouldn't stress about it. The amount of time and money you'll spend trying to make it easily adjustable is far more than the minimal extra wear you'll put on your tires.

If you autocross/track on your street tires (I know, you don't), you'll balance out the tire wear with your track miles. If you run dedicated street tires, you probably aren't buying super-expensive ones, and what's the cost of a pair of front tires... $150? You might shorten their life by 1/4... what's that... $35-40? Not worth a lot of extra modification if you ask me.

[Tamago]

I drove cross country 8,000 miles with almost 3 degrees of front camber without tire wear issues. I wouldn't stress about it. The amount of time and money you'll spend trying to make it easily adjustable is far more than the minimal extra wear you'll put on your tires.

If you autocross/track on your street tires (I know, you don't), you'll balance out the tire wear with your track miles. If you run dedicated street tires, you probably aren't buying super-expensive ones, and what's the cost of a pair of front tires... $150? You might shorten their life by 1/4... what's that... $35-40? Not worth a lot of extra modification if you ask me.

you're slowly convincing me :)

[Loren]

It's not camber that kills tires, it's toe. You can have LOTS of camber, as long as you have zero or very near zero toe, you'll be fine.

You'll find a lot of "hardcore" autocrossers will show up at an autocross, bolt on their race tires and make a quick toe adjustment (front and/or rear) for competition, and change it all back at the end of the day.

The guy I bought my Miata from a good long while back brought two wrenches with him to each autocross to change the front toe. He just adjusted one tie-rod exactly two turns to get the toe out that he wanted for autocross, and turned it back exactly two turns for the drive home. His steering wheel was off-center while he was autocrossing... but that's not the kind of thing you'll notice on course!

[Tamago]

It's not camber that kills tires, it's toe.

that all depends on how much you spin your tires ;)

[Loren]

Tire spinning is another matter, entirely.

[PHXDEMON]

Impressive work :clap:

[Shroomster]

god the info....there is soooo much awesomeness here....


anyways is there going to be a top perch fitment issue or am I mis-reading somewhere?

[kngrsll]

god the info....there is soooo much awesomeness here....


anyways is there going to be a top perch fitment issue or am I mis-reading somewhere?

i think its coming, yes.

[Tamago]

my front parts are here! gotta get back to jury duty :( but here's a teaser pic

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/assembled.jpg

[Loren]

The show & shine boys are gonna love you!

[Tamago]

The show & shine boys are gonna love you!

:cry:

[Loren]

Seriously, it looks good. I know the cool contrasting colors and chrome are just incidental. Can't wait to hear how it works for you.

What rate are those springs? They look pretty stiff.

[Tamago]

400lb springs. i'm afraid they're too tall, by the math the car will be sitting higher than stock. i'll be modifying the upper perches to accept the koni strut rods.


just got pulled for jury duty so i won't have much time to work on this til much later :( ahhh irony..

[kngrsll]

looks great! cant wait to see how it turns out

[Loren]

That's REALLY stiff for the front.

[Tamago]

That's REALLY stiff for the front.

I had 280lb springs before and the car bottomed out a lot. wasn't happy with the ride.. we'll see how i like the 400lb :)

[Tamago]

well, i cut some washers to help center the top hats on the strut rod, machined out the ID of the lower piece i made out of hubcentric rings (the sleeves are now a press fit into the modified hubcentric rings) and put it all together. it looks like i have 2.75" of travel to play with, hopefully that'll be enough to get the car sitting at the ride height i want. now we play the waiting game for the Ksport rear perches/springs!

[Morgan]

looks great! (although I know thats not your main goal)

...this thread reminds me of how much I hate my suspension :frown:

[Tamago]

thx :) you too can do what i'm doing :) especially considering the fact that you've done what only a few have done ( supercharger retrofit )


here's the threaded sleeve pressed into my custom lower perch

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/Photo270.jpg


I also cut some o-ring stock to fit around the strut housing and center the sleeve. i talked poorly of this practice earlier but i've now realized that properly applied, this will work great. i'll be injecting silicon or urethane into the cavity at the bottom of the strut's spring perch to minimize noise.

http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e239/fatherdutami/new%20suspension/Photo271.jpg

[Tamago]

alright, i'm putting the front struts in now, rear shocks as well. still waiting on K sport.

so far i've had to redrill the custom upper perch to fit the strut rod diameter. there was no other sturdy way to do it unfortunately. i also managed to break my drivers side wheel speed sensor wire (again) .. so soldering is next :( dammit, i was on such a roll! pix up soon!

[Tamago]

all done, car's back together.. i bought 7" springs i should have bought 5" springs. car's 2" higher than before ... gonna go see how it rides!

[Morgan]

pics/video!!

[Tamago]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzwJi1GsTCc&feature=channel_page

compares to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kHnOllvD6c&feature=channel_page

first is my new suspension, second is my old..

[TheRealEnth]

NICE i wanna go for a spin =D

[Tamago]

you know how to find me ;)


on another note, can anyone here overlay those two videos? i want to see a comparison of line/speed, etc.. i suck at video crap.

[Loren]

What's different between the two videos? Seems like the first video is on crappy tires... the second one?

My thought is that you're mistaking less body roll and improved steering response for "better handling". The car might feel more responsive, but ultimately, is it really handling better? Is it capable of getting around the corner faster?

Quantitatively, using reference points in the video (the sign post on the entrance and the start of the bridge at the end), the new setup IS a little less than a second faster. But, tires can easily make more of a difference than that, as can driver confidence (if you FEEL more comfortable driving the car). Of course, entry speed is a huge factor, as well. BTW, did you notice that the guard rail on the bridge has been replaced?

You'd be SO much faster if you'd just set up for the turn and smoothly drive through it rather than constantly sawing at the wheel, though. It looks like you're over-driving the car. There's no way the back end is getting loose in that kind of a turn with throttle on all the way, especially with the front way stiffer than the rear, so those corrections are coming from the front tires being over-driven. You're way too stiff in the front for the amount of power you're trying to put down in that turn.

Remember that more rear stiffness is what gives you better weight transfer to the front in a turn. More compliance on the drive wheels allows them to more easily follow the road surface and maintain grip. Watch the video and think about what you were doing while driving... think about what the car is doing. Listen to what the car is telling you.

Try this: Skip the downshift and just flow through the turn. You don't need the extra torque of a downshift in that turn. (and the car obviously won't put it down, anyway) Enter the turn at a proper speed and try to maintain that speed. Use your momentum, that's what a Yaris is good at. See if driving smoothly through the turn without the downshift isn't faster.

Sorry for the ramble, hope it helps.

[Tamago]

What's different between the two videos? Seems like the first video is on crappy tires... the second one?

My thought is that you're mistaking less body roll and improved steering response for "better handling". The car might feel more responsive, but ultimately, is it really handling better? Is it capable of getting around the corner faster?

Quantitatively, using reference points in the video (the sign post on the entrance and the start of the bridge at the end), the new setup IS a little less than a second faster. But, tires can easily make more of a difference than that, as can driver confidence (if you FEEL more comfortable driving the car). Of course, entry speed is a huge factor, as well. BTW, did you notice that the guard rail on the bridge has been replaced?

You'd be SO much faster if you'd just set up for the turn and smoothly drive through it rather than constantly sawing at the wheel, though. It looks like you're over-driving the car. There's no way the back end is getting loose in that kind of a turn with throttle on all the way, especially with the front way stiffer than the rear, so those corrections are coming from the front tires being over-driven. You're way too stiff in the front for the amount of power you're trying to put down in that turn.

Remember that more rear stiffness is what gives you better weight transfer to the front in a turn. More compliance on the drive wheels allows them to more easily follow the road surface and maintain grip. Watch the video and think about what you were doing while driving... think about what the car is doing. Listen to what the car is telling you.

Try this: Skip the downshift and just flow through the turn. You don't need the extra torque of a downshift in that turn. (and the car obviously won't put it down, anyway) Enter the turn at a proper speed and try to maintain that speed. Use your momentum, that's what a Yaris is good at. See if driving smoothly through the turn without the downshift isn't faster.

Sorry for the ramble, hope it helps.


second setup is a little of a second faster, and the first setup was on boost so i had 60 more hp :) i'm happy so far. i'm gonna go make a few more clips now, and address the rest of this post when i come back.. should i video?

edit: stiffer rear springs are in the works. i've only gotten the front parts together, waiting on ksport who's taking their time with my parts. they're 2.2KG springs but i'll immediately upgrade :D or attempt anyway.

the downshift is into 3rd gear btw. the car will slow heavily without downshifting (i'm WAY down on power after an unfortunate incident involving a friend who drove the car a little bit further than he should have sans-water pump) so i'd guess i'm under 80whp right now :( i do feel that i can put on more power now than before because of the stiffer front springs. before, the soft springs were allowing the car to roll, and because of my larger-than-stock swaybar i got a lot more lift on the inside tire. not so much now :)

[Loren]

If the videos show anything different, sure, post 'em.

Power doesn't matter in a turn like that. If it does... "you're not doin' it right".

It's a constant radius turn that you enter from a straight that allows whatever entry speed you want. If you CAN accelerate through it, it simply means that you didn't enter it fast enough! If you enter it at the proper speed, you won't be able to accelerate, you'll just keep a neutral throttle and flow through it... faster.

Please be careful. Obviously, you're not on a race track.

PS: Hand position.

[Phaeton]

I don't know how you can stand all that racket lol.

[Tamago]

If the videos show anything different, sure, post 'em.

Power doesn't matter in a turn like that. If it does... "you're not doin' it right".

It's a constant radius turn that you enter from a straight that allows whatever entry speed you want. If you CAN accelerate through it, it simply means that you didn't enter it fast enough! If you enter it at the proper speed, you won't be able to accelerate, you'll just keep a neutral throttle and flow through it... faster.

Please be careful. Obviously, you're not on a race track.

PS: Hand position.

well i'm back. videos uploading. using your advice i was able to carry 5mph faster thru the entire turn. to be honest with you, i saw at the wheel because i DON'T feel confident in the tires. the kumho AST's (new tires) are in no way as grippy as my old street tires (Bald RS2's).

and i hate the racket. simply hate it. i'm working on that next. hopefully i'll have something to make it quieter (turbo) soon!

edit: uploaded. smoother, not much faster. sawing of the wheel kept to a minimum (something i'll have to concentrate on working on in the future, thanks Loren!)

[kngrsll]

Too bad you arent in North Florida, Savannah GA would be a quick trip up!

[Loren]

Just watched the 3rd video. Yup, definitely faster. The segment that was taking 11-12 seconds on the other vids was down to 10 seconds. Which just shows that you're hitting one of the fundamental problems of trying to tune a suspension while you're still learning the finer points of autox/track driving. Stop me if you've heard this one before... "tune the driver first!"

You've just made more actual difference in your cornering ability by merely changing your driving technique a little bit than you did with all of the new mods that you did! I'm not saying don't mod the suspension, especially since you're so far along, anyway... but do find a point where it's "good enough" (have an experienced FWD autocrosser flog it and get their opinion) and just leave it alone while you learn to drive it.

I mentioned hand position above... look how your left hand is at the top of the wheel, often crossing 12:00 throughout the turn. Your right hand is doing the same thing at the bottom. Teach yourself to "shuffle steer" so that you're anticipating the turn and pre-positioning your hands so that in the middle of a big sweeping turn like that, they are at about 9 and 3. You'll have WAY better control that way. You'll be able to make smoother and more subtle corrections because you'll be turning the wheel using your arm muscles instead of your shoulder muscles.

You should make a road trip over this way for one of the Tampa area autocrosses sometime... or maybe we can get together for an event at Sebring. I'm a member of SAFE Motorsports, we could share an entry at one of their events.

[Tamago]

Just watched the 3rd video. Yup, definitely faster. The segment that was taking 11-12 seconds on the other vids was down to 10 seconds. Which just shows that you're hitting one of the fundamental problems of trying to tune a suspension while you're still learning the finer points of autox/track driving. Stop me if you've heard this one before... "tune the driver first!"

You've just made more actual difference in your cornering ability by merely changing your driving technique a little bit than you did with all of the new mods that you did! I'm not saying don't mod the suspension, especially since you're so far along, anyway... but do find a point where it's "good enough" (have an experienced FWD autocrosser flog it and get their opinion) and just leave it alone while you learn to drive it.

I mentioned hand position above... look how your left hand is at the top of the wheel, often crossing 12:00 throughout the turn. Your right hand is doing the same thing at the bottom. Teach yourself to "shuffle steer" so that you're anticipating the turn and pre-positioning your hands so that in the middle of a big sweeping turn like that, they are at about 9 and 3. You'll have WAY better control that way. You'll be able to make smoother and more subtle corrections because you'll be turning the wheel using your arm muscles instead of your shoulder muscles.

You should make a road trip over this way for one of the Tampa area autocrosses sometime... or maybe we can get together for an event at Sebring. I'm a member of SAFE Motorsports, we could share an entry at one of their events.

i'd like that. i definitely have more work to go on the car (fix the destroyed engine next) i'll try shuffle steering next time i'm out there. i will also be lowering the car 2" as soon as the springs show up (the car is higher than stock in the front right now) so this may or may not help. we'll see! i also haven't aligned the car since yesterday. not sure it'd matter but after the 4" springs show up i'll go and align it again.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Bump :) I wanna read the rest of this thread later.......

[DeathBeard]

I think camber plates on a Yaris is severe overkill. With slotted strut bottom holes on the K-Sport kit, I can easily get almost 3 degrees negative. You could get another degree or so by using crash bolts.

Did you slot the the bottom of the ksports or do they come that way? Any pictures?