Hyperco 5.5" single pigtail rear spring test

[kngrsll]

Alright, i got one of the two sets of springs i ordered today. This pair of springs is the 275 lb rated, 5.5" diameter, 12" free length, single pigtail rear spring. When i first got them, i thought, damn these things are big!! Then i thought, shit, they don't compress at ALL!! Only one of these would actually become an issue. Feel free to speculate :)

Ok, so in review, i measured the rear spring on the car (Tanabe DF210) to be about 12" free length and 5.5" in diameter with a spring rate of 123 lbs. I thought with the rubber on each end of the spring out, they may just fit. I ordered both rates bc i thought that the 175 lb would have a much better chance of fitting, but i don't know this as they are not here!

So first i measured the height of the rear wheel well stock:

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbGGyftBI/AAAAAAAAABc/2KMAh5tkoaM/s400/DSCN1229.JPG

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbEseYXfI/AAAAAAAAABU/c3eted3yPDM/s400/DSCN1228.JPG
looks to me to be about 24.5" roughly...

So then i jacked the car up and pulled out the rear springs. Before putting in the new ones, i took a picture of them in comparison.

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbJp8sedI/AAAAAAAAABg/kdhFWChZ-hE/s400/DSCN1230.JPG
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbMc-Q86I/AAAAAAAAABk/qxnr_tmXsRs/s400/DSCN1231.JPG

So, as you can see, they are nearly the exact same free length. Which is good that i guessed it right, but bad that it wasn't good for the rear height when it was installed! Also, the diameter of the Tanabe spring is probably closer to 5" rather than 5.5", and in fact, i think they sell a 5" spring just like these, so that may be a better option.

I went ahead and installed them, they just slid in and i lowered the car. The rear of the car was pretty high. I didn't go drive around on them, but i put the shocks in, and the droop length kept the springs in fine. So here are two pics, one of the height and one of the measurement of the height.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbSSPT1YI/AAAAAAAAAB4/7gcxcsI3Q6U/s400/DSCN1236.JPG
http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbQRc7kOI/AAAAAAAAAB0/APqYgE3on-o/s400/DSCN1235.JPG

I see that as 27 1/4", so nearly 3" higher. Now, one could just trim 3" off the spring, but then i think you will have issues of losing the spring if you were to lift a rear wheel. That no good. What you could do is use the rubber hats and leave it in for another inch or so and they mostly compress. Another idea was to weld in a short metal tube that is about 2.5 or 3" in diameter on the spring seat to keep the spring in place if it were to come off the lower seat (and that would be REALLY bad. Another option would be to reduce the droop length, which is possible with some simple straps.

Anyways, thought i would share. Hope it helps, I will try the 175 lb springs when i get them. If Loren or largeorangefont wants to do some math, feel free! :D I think the lighter springs will fit perfect, but we will see.

Oh, i got another nice package today too!

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjLbUjXN94I/AAAAAAAAAB8/E2Ez77DORwE/s400/DSCN1237.JPG

15x7 +25mm 13 lb Team Dynamic Spec Miata wheels!! :D so much win!!

HA!! IT WORKED!!! I cant believe it!!

Ok, so i took the springs to a random muffler shop, i approached one of the workers outside with my springs and asked if they could do a cut on them. He said no problem, got his torch out, and cut where i measured! So that was way easy, i thought it would be alot harder to get someone to do that lol.

Ok, so i didnt get pics of that stuff, i should have. I measured from the very bottom of the spring when it was sitting level, and i rotated the spring until the bottom part of the coil got to 2.5". So i made a line there and had it cut. The free length of the spring now was 9.5".

I went home and jacked the car up. I didnt have to unbolt anything now lol, i just used a wrenched and popped the springs out! So once they were out,i installed the rubber hat on top, and i put the new ones in, and lowered the car. This was tricky, you lower it a little and make sure its in place, and then go all the way. Well here are the pics:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdogPp2ZI/AAAAAAAAACw/72TDJyKbcno/s400/DSCN1238.JPG
Before

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdvcJVRSI/AAAAAAAAADA/xZtmDZRlHIs/s400/DSCN1242.JPG
After

Can you tell a difference? I can't!! and if you dont believe me, look behind the car, black springs in the first pic, red springs in the second!

So then the problem of the springs staying in came up. So i drove the car around, and i had no problems. I drove about 30 miles. I went to an empty parking lot and did donuts, and slides, and anything to try to make something bad happen and nothing did. The problem will really come with large pot holes or something like that so that may have just been for fun! :) So i visited a few places and such, and couldnt really think of how to do the strap thing yet. I figured, why not use the spring as the strap? So my temporary solution is these hardcore zipties. they are metal and are made to support 100 lbs of weight themselves. There are 6 on there, so that splits the load up pretty good. Anyone know the weight of the rear subframe? They came from Advance Auto in the Performance Parts section.

So how did i do that? Well there is a hole in the top spring perch, you can slide the tie wrap in it, over the spring, and tighten it. For the bottom, there are holes all over in the perch. So do the same, around the spring and tighten to the perch. There are two on the bottom and one on the top.

Next, to test this, i jacked up each side individually. The spring stayed in place, the zip ties held it in!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdyCI39rI/AAAAAAAAADI/t5boY5ypPvI/s400/DSCN1244.JPG

So this is the amount the car is off the ground right before the tire comes up (and the spring and straps carry that corner load.)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPd130nX3I/AAAAAAAAADQ/qBHoK9_c-v0/s400/DSCN1246.JPG

This is a terrible pic, but you can see the straps (untrimmed!)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPd36kcugI/AAAAAAAAADY/RrITTlYuOpY/s400/DSCN1247.JPG

The same picture with the spring loaded instead.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdzqbZlVI/AAAAAAAAADM/XltmngoiKQk/s400/DSCN1245.JPG

See? Its normally really hard to get the rear tire off the ground!!

I even stood on the wheel and jumped up and down on it to test the straps, they work!! im only 165 lbs but, it passed my test. I think i will make straps later, but now i can really do them right and not in a hurry.

So how does the car drive?? FANTASTIC!! Loren is so right about this chassis, it really wants more rear spring!! so now it has 175 lb springs in the front and 275 lb springs in the rear. The car is so much more agile. I had to really bump the shock settings up to make up the difference, so i am glad i had that adjustability. For anyone with blues, i would suggest upgrading the rears to either the blue xD shock or just get the HTSs. You may be able to just do the rear HTS and keep the blues up front if money is an issue, but the front adjustability is nice. I have not played with shock settings much yet, i think i will only play with the rears once i get the settings i like.

So I have an autox tomorrow, lets see how this set up works!!

A big thanks to everyone who helped and had some input/ideas for this!! You know who you are!! (and if you guys dont: Loren, Tamago, and largeorangefont)

[cali yaris]

so if you were doing an offroad Yaris, those would be great... :biggrin:

I wish you had a pic of the whole car with the rear jacked up like that...

[kngrsll]

the front looked the exact same as before, it didnt go up at all... it wasnt higher at all. so it looked like a wedge LOL

[Tamago]

good thread, good to know about the springs, and MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM at those wheels! can't wait to see your +15mm rear fitment! did you install your hub spacers already?

[Loren]

Simple math here. One rear corner = 2300 x .5 x 40% or about 460 pounds.

Your 123# spring is compressing approximately 460/123 or 3.75" to an installed length of about 8.25". (this is disregarding motion ratio just for simplicity)

Your 275# spring is only compressing 460/275 or about 1.75" to an installed length of 10.25"... a full 2" taller than stock.

Your actual results were about 3/4" more than that, but looking at the side-by-side photo, the old springs were maybe half an inch shorter than the new ones. That's part of it. The rest probably comes down to not considering the motion ratio, etc.

My point is that if you'd done a little math, you should have EXPECTED your new 275# spring to raise the car by at least 2" without question. Can you get 10" springs or 9" springs?

Very cool that "standard" race springs fit so well. How 'bout some photos of how they fit in the perches? This is neat stuff!

[Tamago]

3/4 makes sense as gordon told me the typical motion ratio is around 70% ;)

[largeorangefont]

Cut the springs, buy some limiting straps, install them and enjoy.

[kngrsll]

good thread, good to know about the springs, and MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM at those wheels! can't wait to see your +15mm rear fitment! did you install your hub spacers already?

I got them yesterday as well, i was going to save them for another thread. I have not put them in yet though!

Simple math here. One rear corner = 2300 x .5 x 40% or about 460 pounds.

Your 123# spring is compressing approximately 460/123 or 3.75" to an installed length of about 8.25". (this is disregarding motion ratio just for simplicity)

Your 275# spring is only compressing 460/275 or about 1.75" to an installed length of 10.25"... a full 2" taller than stock.

Your actual results were about 3/4" more than that, but looking at the side-by-side photo, the old springs were maybe half an inch shorter than the new ones. That's part of it. The rest probably comes down to not considering the motion ratio, etc.

My point is that if you'd done a little math, you should have EXPECTED your new 275# spring to raise the car by at least 2" without question. Can you get 10" springs or 9" springs?

Very cool that "standard" race springs fit so well. How 'bout some photos of how they fit in the perches? This is neat stuff!

yea, i agree, i should have done that. Either way, the shortest they make is 11", so it may not have been adequate enough.

Cut the springs, buy some limiting straps, install them and enjoy.

I think this is exactly what i am going to do!

then i will get pics of them in the bottom perch. They fit so good!

[kngrsll]

Oh, any suggestions for a droop strap?

[TheRealEnth]

i want to see pics of the car now! with the rims =)

[kngrsll]

HA!! IT WORKED!!! I cant believe it!!

Ok, so i took the springs to a random muffler shop, i approached one of the workers outside with my springs and asked if they could do a cut on them. He said no problem, got his torch out, and cut where i measured! So that was way easy, i thought it would be alot harder to get someone to do that lol.

Ok, so i didnt get pics of that stuff, i should have. I measured from the very bottom of the spring when it was sitting level, and i rotated the spring until the bottom part of the coil got to 2.5". So i made a line there and had it cut. The free length of the spring now was 9.5".

I went home and jacked the car up. I didnt have to unbolt anything now lol, i just used a wrenched and popped the springs out! So once they were out,i installed the rubber hat on top, and i put the new ones in, and lowered the car. This was tricky, you lower it a little and make sure its in place, and then go all the way. Well here are the pics:

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdogPp2ZI/AAAAAAAAACw/72TDJyKbcno/s400/DSCN1238.JPG
Before

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdvcJVRSI/AAAAAAAAADA/xZtmDZRlHIs/s400/DSCN1242.JPG
After

Can you tell a difference? I can't!! and if you dont believe me, look behind the car, black springs in the first pic, red springs in the second!

So then the problem of the springs staying in came up. So i drove the car around, and i had no problems. I drove about 30 miles. I went to an empty parking lot and did donuts, and slides, and anything to try to make something bad happen and nothing did. The problem will really come with large pot holes or something like that so that may have just been for fun! :) So i visited a few places and such, and couldnt really think of how to do the strap thing yet. I figured, why not use the spring as the strap? So my temporary solution is these hardcore zipties. they are metal and are made to support 100 lbs of weight themselves. There are 6 on there, so that splits the load up pretty good. Anyone know the weight of the rear subframe? They came from Advance Auto in the Performance Parts section.

So how did i do that? Well there is a hole in the top spring perch, you can slide the tie wrap in it, over the spring, and tighten it. For the bottom, there are holes all over in the perch. So do the same, around the spring and tighten to the perch. There are two on the bottom and one on the top.

Next, to test this, i jacked up each side individually. The spring stayed in place, the zip ties held it in!

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdyCI39rI/AAAAAAAAADI/t5boY5ypPvI/s400/DSCN1244.JPG

So this is the amount the car is off the ground right before the tire comes up (and the spring and straps carry that corner load.)

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPd130nX3I/AAAAAAAAADQ/qBHoK9_c-v0/s400/DSCN1246.JPG

This is a terrible pic, but you can see the straps (untrimmed!)

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPd36kcugI/AAAAAAAAADY/RrITTlYuOpY/s400/DSCN1247.JPG

The same picture with the spring loaded instead.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_XhaUiwjGRbw/SjPdzqbZlVI/AAAAAAAAADM/XltmngoiKQk/s400/DSCN1245.JPG

See? Its normally really hard to get the rear tire off the ground!!

I even stood on the wheel and jumped up and down on it to test the straps, they work!! im only 165 lbs but, it passed my test. I think i will make straps later, but now i can really do them right and not in a hurry.

So how does the car drive?? FANTASTIC!! Loren is so right about this chassis, it really wants more rear spring!! so now it has 175 lb springs in the front and 275 lb springs in the rear. The car is so much more agile. I had to really bump the shock settings up to make up the difference, so i am glad i had that adjustability. For anyone with blues, i would suggest upgrading the rears to either the blue xD shock or the HTS. You may be able to just do the rears and keep the blues up front if money is an issue. I have not played with shock settings much yet, honestly i think i will only play with the rears once i get the settings i like.

So I have an autox tomorrow, lets see how this set up works!!

A big thanks to everyone who helped and had some input/ideas for this!! You know who you are!! (and if you guys dont: Loren, Tamago, and largeorangefont)

[Tamago]

looks really good! i'll be following shortly behind you when my stuff arrives at the end of the month

[kngrsll]

Joel, check your gmail.

I can't wait to see you follow it up, i'm sure you will find some refining to do!

[CASTREX]

Great thread...


You Sir, have my respect...

Good to see more people experimenting...:clap:

[kngrsll]

Great thread...


You Sir, have my respect...

Good to see more people experimenting...:clap:

Thanks!!

[Loren]

Now, the question is... what spring rate did you end up with?

We can do some math and get close. Give me the diameter of the wire, the number of active coils "before" and the number of active coils "after" and I'll crunch it for you.

This is awesome stuff. After today's autocross, I think a tad more rear rate (even more than the 400# I already have) would be good. Will make it kinda clunky on the street, which it already is. But, I'm still having to jack the rear shock adjustment to almost full stiff to get the front to hook up like I want it to. Need more rear rate!

[Tamago]

penguin garage is currently planning adaptors to allow yaris users to use standard 2.5" race coils. stay tuned! and your clunking noises will be gone, thanks to urethane.

[kngrsll]

penguin garage is currently planning adaptors to allow yaris users to use standard 2.5" race coils. stay tuned! and your clunking noises will be gone, thanks to urethane.

cool! :D

[kngrsll]

Now, the question is... what spring rate did you end up with?

We can do some math and get close. Give me the diameter of the wire, the number of active coils "before" and the number of active coils "after" and I'll crunch it for you.

This is awesome stuff. After today's autocross, I think a tad more rear rate (even more than the 400# I already have) would be good. Will make it kinda clunky on the street, which it already is. But, I'm still having to jack the rear shock adjustment to almost full stiff to get the front to hook up like I want it to. Need more rear rate!

what rates are you running up front again?

[Loren]

4kg up front. About 225#.

[Penguin Garage]

Tamago loves typing....:bellyroll:

he's not wrong though. :wink:

[Penguin Garage]

kngsrll, get pics with the spacers when you get a chance. :smile:

[kngrsll]

kngsrll, get pics with the spacers when you get a chance. :smile:

will do!

[kngrsll]

Well, the set up works! My friend Wade and I placed 1st and 2nd in ST (street tire) class today out of 12 cars. Wade got 6th in PAX out of 190 cars. He used to race an SE-R so he is much better with FWD than i am. Anyways, it was a great day... Alot of people commented on how fast the little yaris was! It was 2nd fastest raw street tire time of the day as well!

so this set up works :)

[Loren]

A well setup Yaris is truly capable as long as the course isn't too horsepower-friendly. I finished 6th overall out of 37 drivers yesterday. (results (http://wedrivefast.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=IQaQDL0af1o%3d&tabid=80&mid=400)) Only one of the cars ahead of me was on street tires... and that was an S2000! I also had a co-driver, we finished 1-2 in our class. He'd never driven a Yaris before and was quite impressed with it.

How many runs do you get at a 190-car autocross? That's a lot of cars! Our club limits entries to 60.

[kngrsll]

A well setup Yaris is truly capable as long as the course isn't too horsepower-friendly. I finished 6th overall out of 37 drivers yesterday. (results (http://wedrivefast.com/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=IQaQDL0af1o%3d&tabid=80&mid=400)) Only one of the cars ahead of me was on street tires... and that was an S2000! I also had a co-driver, we finished 1-2 in our class. He'd never driven a Yaris before and was quite impressed with it.

How many runs do you get at a 190-car autocross? That's a lot of cars! Our club limits entries to 60.

3 runs, it sucked.

They need to start capping events here.

btw, the car 3 wheels like CRAZY now!! and the metal ties work really well!

[HTM Yaris]

Congrats to You and Wade :headbang::bow::headbang::bow:. Looks like HTM ( High Tach ) still rules :w00t:

Yeah 190 cars is way too much . Thats part of the reason I don't like Autox that much anymore . Well that and working 20hrs a day 7 days a week . To me 8-10 hrs of baking for 3-4 mins of driving just not worth it to me .

Hope to see ya'll at Roebling

[kngrsll]

Congrats to You and Wade :headbang::bow::headbang::bow:. Looks like HTM ( High Tach ) still rules :w00t:

Yeah 190 cars is way too much . Thats part of the reason I don't like Autox that much anymore . Well that and working 20hrs a day 7 days a week . To me 8-10 hrs of baking for 3-4 mins of driving just not worth it to me .

Hope to see ya'll at Roebling

Definately will see you there!

[Loren]

Autocross is what you make of it. A well-run club can make it worthwhile. It's still a lot of standing around for not a lot of seat time, but the seat time is intense, and sometimes the competition is fun. We usually do 6-8 runs. We also include coolers full of iced water and sodas along with lunch in our entry fee, which adds to the value. Veterans like me usually ride along with others throughout the day... really, that's almost as much fun as driving. It's fun to be able to give someone that one little driving tip they needed to hear and see them drop a second or two on their next run!

Heh, you're right, Ken... I don't notice it so much, I drive pretty smoothly and don't usually feel when the lifted wheel comes down, but my co-driver commented on it. Last weekend, they were calling me "tripod". I need to get some video of the new suspension setup in action and see what that's all about.

[Kongo-Otto]

Zip ties, cutting springs? Holy sh**. If you do that over here you`ll get a lot of trouble with the police, insurance and the german TÜV.

[Tamago]

Zip ties, cutting springs? Holy sh**. If you do that over here you`ll get a lot of trouble with the police, insurance and the german TÜV.

god bless america? ?

:iono::wub:

[Tamago]

Autocross is what you make of it. A well-run club can make it worthwhile. It's still a lot of standing around for not a lot of seat time, but the seat time is intense, and sometimes the competition is fun. We usually do 6-8 runs. We also include coolers full of iced water and sodas along with lunch in our entry fee, which adds to the value. Veterans like me usually ride along with others throughout the day... really, that's almost as much fun as driving. It's fun to be able to give someone that one little driving tip they needed to hear and see them drop a second or two on their next run!

Heh, you're right, Ken... I don't notice it so much, I drive pretty smoothly and don't usually feel when the lifted wheel comes down, but my co-driver commented on it. Last weekend, they were calling me "tripod". I need to get some video of the new suspension setup in action and see what that's all about.

agreed, our local club has been able to turn out 4 runs with over 200 cars before. granted, the day had no fubars (like yesterday's event) but from what i've seen it's the noobs who usually screw things up, standing around BSing instead of paying attention to cones down etc. then there's always the one guy in a 'vette who thinks going thru the finishline lights sideways is a good way to end his last run (effectively taking out the lights, costing us half an hour to fix them). the events themselves can be run smoothly as long as every participant goes to the event with the idea in mind that they are not there to just race, but participate in the entire event. i actually worked during all 3 of the run groups i wasn't in.. why the hell not? standing in the sun is standing in the sun, might as well do it with a great view of the action!

[kngrsll]

Autocross is what you make of it. A well-run club can make it worthwhile. It's still a lot of standing around for not a lot of seat time, but the seat time is intense, and sometimes the competition is fun. We usually do 6-8 runs. We also include coolers full of iced water and sodas along with lunch in our entry fee, which adds to the value. Veterans like me usually ride along with others throughout the day... really, that's almost as much fun as driving. It's fun to be able to give someone that one little driving tip they needed to hear and see them drop a second or two on their next run!

Heh, you're right, Ken... I don't notice it so much, I drive pretty smoothly and don't usually feel when the lifted wheel comes down, but my co-driver commented on it. Last weekend, they were calling me "tripod". I need to get some video of the new suspension setup in action and see what that's all about.

LOL, id love some video! I wish i could have got some from the action yesterday!!

Now as for my driving, i struggle. I have always used a 240sx to race with. I loved that car bc i could really throw it around and drive hard. Well, the Yaris was fast when you were more gentle!! So, I have some learning to do. At the track, its a different store, where smooth is king anyways, i did well there, but autox, yeah, gotta smooth out again.


agreed, our local club has been able to turn out 4 runs with over 200 cars before. granted, the day had no fubars (like yesterday's event) but from what i've seen it's the noobs who usually screw things up, standing around BSing instead of paying attention to cones down etc. then there's always the one guy in a 'vette who thinks going thru the finishline lights sideways is a good way to end his last run (effectively taking out the lights, costing us half an hour to fix them). the events themselves can be run smoothly as long as every participant goes to the event with the idea in mind that they are not there to just race, but participate in the entire event. i actually worked during all 3 of the run groups i wasn't in.. why the hell not? standing in the sun is standing in the sun, might as well do it with a great view of the action!

Sweet, let us know how you did!

[HTM Yaris]

Yeah I guess I just need to get remotivated . You guys are contributing greatly to that effect :bow: Not to mention my GF and her daughter LOVED the last Autox we went to in Myrtle Beach . My GF just purchased a Mini ( she had a 4x4 blazer ) and she is always asking stuff like "Why do you steer like that" , " Why do you accel here b/c this is where I brake " . She is actually shuffle steering now , and pretty darn good at it .
I informed my GF that I wanted to go to Roebling Road for 3 days . What does she do ? Books a hotel room :eyebulge: Maybe I should put all these hints together and get a clue :rolleyes:

I do remember how extremely gratifying it is to help someone shave a second or two of their time . Not to mention the smile it produced on their face :smile: I remember how good it felt to coach my son's ex GF to win the ladies division in her first season in a car that she never drove ( my son's MR2 ) . She actually beat him a couple of times . Needless to say he got a little mad . But like I pointed out to him " She listens very well , and she executes very well " . Ya'll know how a father/son relationship is " Dad is old and doesn't know crap " . Another thing that I pointed out to my son " Age and treachery ALWAYS , ALWAYS , beat out youth and speed " :biggrin: