The Basics on Brake Upgrades

[kngrsll]

Alot of people have a tough time understanding brake upgrades. Most new enthusiasts think that bigger = better. I know i thought this myself at one time. I went to a few autox's got my ass kicked, and made some changes to my car set up after getting some advice. One thing said to me was that my brake upgrade could be hampering my performance. I had a 4 piston brake upgrade on my 240sx, and it was suggested i go back to the stock parts, get new high temp pads, new blank rotors, lines, and new high temp fluid. So i did took the advice, and did it. What do you know? The braking improved ALOT!! The money from the brake kit sale was used to buy new tires (dedicated racing tires) and wheels. Now i was competing for class victories and making stabs at the top ten PAX times.

This should be done before anyone even considers any brake job. Big brake kits have their place, but if you haven't done this set yet, how do you know you are using the full capacity of the braking system??! now cars that carry more weight (not us), race for hours on end (definately not us lol), or carry alot more speed (turbo cars, some of us!) could use more brake material.

Do you guys know the purpose of a big brake kit? no big brake kit will make you stop FASTER. The brakes are limited by the grip of the tire. What is the best brake upgrade then? TIRES!!! if you can lock up your tires while braking, the brakes are at FULL stopping capacity!! Does this make sense?

So why do people do big brake kits? well, i know i did it bc i thought it would make me stop faster, but i learned better. What a big brake kit really does is allows you to absorb more heat!! brakes are heat sinks! If you are tracking and using up all your brakes, and they cant cool quickly enough, you need to increase the air to them, or increase their heat capacity. So you can use more metal, or ducting. So big brake kits have a significant advantage in heat capacity, and that is ALL. that is their only advantage. They typically weight more (unsprung none the less), which slows you down if you are not overheating your stock brakes (doubtful.) They can also change the ratio for front to rear braking capacity, which can negatively effect braking performance. So if your fronts are doing more of the work, then you are wasting braking that could be done by the rears. This is set up in the factory by hundreds of little engineers who are way smarter than us, and should be done by major brake upgrade companies. If you piece together a kit, im nearly certain you will not consider this. There is alot of math LOL. They also cost alot. That money would be better spent at a track school and autoxes where you learn to drive what you have FASTER and then you are quicker no matter the car or equipment you own.

The list garm just posted (pads, lines, fluid) will satisfy 99% of the braking needs for guys on this forum. I have tracked my car, autox'd it, and have had no brake issues (with stock pads and fluid with 60k miles on them!!) The car is so light, they are gentle on the brakes. This car is very easy on its brakes. In fact, i would almost worry that some of the high end temp pads that carbo tech offers through micro image could be tough to keep heat in! I may test this at the next event, do brake temps during a 20 min session and see what they peak at.

The brake upgrade i like most is the kind that retains the stock front caliper, and utilizes a bigger rotor and caliper bracket. I think Micro Image offers a kit like this. I think that is a smart upgrade if you are having brake fade issues and you have already tried the above set up. It's too bad 17's are required because i like 15" wheels (lighter, but most important, cheaper tires!) Before this, you could actually build a ducting kit to get temperatures down. I plan on doing this and doing a write up about it.

Now a rear disc upgrade, i would do that in a heart beat. Drums suck. I would really like to know how it would change the front to rear brake bias. This can be discovered with a little math, and can be adjusted by using an adjustable proportioning valve.

I hope this helps some of you guys out there. If you want to go fast, follow my advice. If you want to look good while getting passed, don't listen. :)

If anyone has questions or would like to chime in and add something positive, feel free!

[kngrsll]

maybe a sticky would be helpful too?

[Tamago]

i vote sticky

and i couldnt' have said it better.

[Loren]

Good stuff. I would add that IF after adding decent pads and fluid, you still have a brake fade problem with a Yaris in a track environment, add some brake ducting to cool the front brakes. That should take care of it.

Remember that the Yaris is a momentum car. As a driver, you should be finding ways to MAINTAIN speed rather than turn it into heat with the brakes.

[supmet]

Great info, I've been thinking a lot of the same things with all the big brake threads lately.


http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8333
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11930

^^ links to brake duct DIYs

They typically weigh more (unsprung none the less),

I wonder if we could pull together a list of rotor weights - stock, R1 concepts, R1 concepts drilled, R1 concepts drilled and slotted, and then various big brake kits.

[jkuchta]

The carbotech XP8 pads are the most aggresive pads Garm offers for the front, and come up to temp really nicely on the track (and in stop-go traffic!), and offer phenominal bite (both hot and cold). Also, modulation is a no-brainer!

With time at the streets of Willow, and the "Roval" at Autoclub Speedway, brake fade never appeared during numerous 20-30 min. sessions, though the tires could only take about 10 min. before they started to cook off.

[Tamago]

what brake fluid were you running?

[jkuchta]

ATE Superblue DOT 4, with stock lines.

[TheRealEnth]

sticky!

[lilredrocket]

Thanks for putting all this info together. I will start auto-xing my car at the next event thisstuff will be good as I progress with my racing.

Def needs to be a sticky!!!

[Brian]

Great info. I've done the rear disc brake conversion, steel braided brake lines (fronts and rears
will be installed this weekend, R1 rotors, and pads. I'm very happy with the results. Braking
has increased a lot over stock. I agree that these upgrades should be done before a big brake
kit. Next step for me is to upgrade the brake fluid. I would recommend this thread to anyone
considering brake upgrades.

[eTiMaGo]

coudln't you have written this 3 years ago? :laugh: stickied!

Anybody wanna buy my monster front brakes?

[kngrsll]

coudln't you have written this 3 years ago? :laugh: stickied!

Anybody wanna buy my monster front brakes?

someone will ALWAYS be willing to drop coin on front brakes. I dunno why, but people love big brake kits.

I love cars, and i love racing. Big fat brakes just look like car porn, and i think its just too easy to get sucked into it. Its like 3 girls want to go out with you, and you just know, the girl with the big fake titties is the one you WANT to bring back home, but you know she is just a gold digger and the worst for you LOL

i mean look at these:

http://image.europeancarweb.com/f/9354471/0703_ec_05z+stoptech+carbon_ceramic_brakes.jpg

If you like cars, and you don't love that, somethings wrong

[Tamago]

it has 6 lugs. do not want ;)

[vten]

!

Anybody wanna buy my monster front brakes?


how much ? :w00t:

[PhasedWalker]

6 lugs and still small =S

[chrisgardinier@clearwire.]

Is there a DIY for changing pads on a Yaris? I have 2 of them and they need new pads. Thanls

[kngrsll]

i havent seen one specifically for the yaris, but if you do a search for any set of disc brakes, it should be very similar.

[djct_watt]

I've been looking into this, actually. I noticed that SOME thai-spec Yarii come with rear disc brakes. I don't know if the conversion is plug and play, and if there will need to be any changes in brake force distribution. I can't imagine that the fluid pressure needed to correctly operate a disc brakes is identical to that of the drums. . .

[xbgod]

This is for you all looking to do big brakes and or rear disc conversions.

Getting the right ratio:
In order to get the correct ratio for your brake system a few measurements must be taken. First, remove the old master cylinder. Measure from the center line of the pivot point “P” of the brake arm to the pivot point of the master cylinder rod to get length “B”. Next, measure from the pivot point of the master cylinder rod to the center of the footpad to get length “A”. Finally, divide length “A” by length “B”. This will give you your pedal ratio. The recommended ratio should be 7:1. For example, if length “A” was 14 “ and length “B” was 2”, then 14/2=7.

Proper bedding of new pads:New brake pads require a bedding process. This bedding procedure starts by pumping your brakes at a very low speed to ensure proper brake operation. Make a series of hard stops at progressively higher speeds. Continue this process until brake fade is felt. Park the car and give the pads a chance to cool completely. Improper pad bedding results in glazed pads diminishing stopping ability. Brake pads should be checked regularly. If pads are wearing evenly, they can be used almost down to the backing plate.

Bleeding the system:An initial gravity bleeding is recommended to remove most of the air in the system. This is accomplished by filling the master cylinder with fresh fluid and opening the bleed ports. Leave the top off the master cylinder. Fluid will flow into and fill the calipers. Be sure to keep fluid in the reservoir to keep air out of the system. This process will take some time. A final bleeding is accomplished by firmly pressing the brake pedal and having someone open the bleed port until the pedal goes to the floor, closing the bleed port before the pedal is lifted. Do not pump the pedal while bleeding. This only foams the fluid and prevents proper bleeding. Repeat this process for all brakes until pedal is high and firm. Be sure no air bubbles come from the calipers.

Master Cylinder: The master cylinder requirements vary depending on front/rear brake combination. If you are using 4 piston calipers on the front and rear it will require a master cylinder with a minimum bore size of 1 1/32.

Proportioning Valves:Used for adjusting line pressure. (On that line only that it is attached)
A proportioning valve does not redistribute line pressure from front to rear it only adjusts the pressure on the line that is hook-up to. Do not get confused on what this valve does.

Residual Valve
Used for keeping line pressure on drum brakes (keeps tension on the springs) or for a master cylinder that is at level or below the caliper.

XBG

[djct_watt]

Awesome info. . . thanks for the reply. So does that mean that the pressure is even across all the brake lines, regardless of drum or disc? Does this mean that it would be a direct swap if OEM disc brakes can be found?

[cali yaris]

RunStop rear disc conversion:
http://shop.microimageonline.com/Yaris-Rear-Disc-Brake-Conversion-Kit-Y-RearDisc.htm

Works great, and you can get it in Thailand (if that's where you are).

My experience from racing the car with this kit installed was that this did proportion more braking to the rear, but just a little.

[xbgod]

The pressure is not even across the brake lines. The port closest to the M/C will have more pressure typically than the one furthest out. There are lots of things that are involved when setting up a brake system. If you want to know how to set the best system up for your self, I will need to know what you are using for front and rear brakes.

What kind of calipers will be used?
What will be the size of the pistons and how many?
The same questions apply to the rear.

Once I know this I can calculate your M/C size and pedal ratio. Some things in your stock system may not even need to change depending on what your going to do.

XBG

[xbgod]

Here is a pic of my rear disc kit.

[djct_watt]

I'm looking at converting OEM rear drums to OEM rear discs, both for the Yaris. In Asia, They are available with OEM rear discs too, but only come on fully spec'd auto's and not 5spds. I don't know the specs since I haven't sourced one from a junkyard yet.

Look here: http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3081 for pics.

I've tried to asks the dealers for info, but they are all clueless. . . the Toyota tech's here don't even know about torquing to spec, or anything about proper setup. An alignment involves driving the car around the block (they almost never set it up on the rack), and even though I have a headlight shooting almost straight up, the DEALER says it's aligned, because his crosseyed eyes said so. Labor is dirt cheap here, but knowledge is in limited supply. If I do this conversion, I'm doing it myself. I don't trust the tech's here.

[07stlYaris]

:iono: Being an avid welder and fabricator, why not?? The Honda thing is a bit wrong but hey, as long as the lug pattern is correct, only I would know. As for older Celica stuff, why not? Bolt pattern is correct, Car weights are not too far off. Parts would still be Toyota sourced. Wouldn't confuse a shop nearly as much. Thinking I might try this with the Celica parts next summer so I'll let you know.

[cali yaris]

^ That will be a great post!

[ysr 72]

pirelli p6000 with brembo max discs and pads on my mk1 1.3 SR does the job!

[cali yaris]

^ I bet it does! :clap:

[10 Francis]

What about 3rd-gen rear disk swap? (maybe there's already be a dedicated thread for that?)

[Bluevitz-rs]

What about 3rd-gen rear disk swap? (maybe there's already be a dedicated thread for that?)

3rd gen what?

[10 Francis]

2012+ Yaris. The SE comes with rear disks.
Sorry for the confusion; I suppose for us in the US, it's just the second generation of the Yaris. There's a whole forum on this site entitled "Third Generation Yaris General Discussion" referring to the 2012 and later models.

[Bluevitz-rs]

2012+ Yaris. The SE comes with rear disks.
Sorry for the confusion; I suppose for us in the US, it's just the second generation of the Yaris. There's a whole forum on this site entitled "Third Generation Yaris General Discussion" referring to the 2012 and later models.

Oh of course. The rear brakes are probably similar to the corolla as well.

[Rose Frankie]

I think there is no 3rd Generation of Yaris. If it is there please let me know about it.

[cali yaris]

thread resurrection. :rolleyes:

1st gen Yaris = Echo = pre-2006 (or 2007 depending on where you live)
2nd gen Yaris = 2006=2011
3rd gen Yaris = 2012+

[Ben_]

Still interested in any cross model part swapping ie corolla rear disks or some kind of rear sway

[Bluevitz-rs]

Still interested in any cross model part swapping ie corolla rear disks or some kind of rear sway

For what year?

[Ben_]

06-11

[Bluevitz-rs]

Deleted due to false info.

Sorry.

[Ben_]

Has this been accomplished before? I haven't seen info about this before. So the xd uses the same rear beam axle? Does the xd have hubs that will swap over?

[Bluevitz-rs]

Deleted due to false info.

Sorry.

[nortonfb]

Would this be the same for the 07 HB?
Would you need to swap the master cylinder?
Maybe a better question is what all is needed to convert the rear to disc?
Thanks,
Norton

[Ben_]

Everything is the same from 06(07)-11 for hatches and sedans as far as suspension/brakes is concerned. It appears that a new hub, calipers, caliper mounts, rotors are all necessary. I'm not sure what else is or if all these are required but it seems to be more parts than I was expecting. Look at the rear disk swap kit on microimage too get a general idea of what's going on

[enviri]

WOAH WOAH WOAH stop. XD has a rear drum system. ALL US models. the easiest way is to get a complete jdm axle, and swap it in
or as me and ctscott hypothesized, a 2013+ set of SE rear discs, rear calipers, rear disc e-brake cable and a special hubspacer adapter to mount the caliper.

There is another toyota where you can source a caliper and pads supposedly from a 09 or so xrs corolla...this is a bit unconfirmed.

there are a total of 4 people that i know of that has done a jdm rear disc conversion.

[Ben_]

Thanks for the heads up. Now all we need is for someone to put some money into this project and see if the brakes from those two models would work. I can't put money into a blind venture until I graduate college. I've been hoping for cheap performance parts since I started auto x

[ilikerice]

Ben, we been going back and forth about autocrossing in STF. Just a heads up. You can not change the rear disc if it did not come from a USDM trim. That will actually put you in F Street Prepared (FSP).

Just a heads up if your upgrade decisions are based off autocross classing or just having fun.

[ezhacker1]

I have no personal experience in AutoX, but the rule book says specifically that you can swap drums to disc in STF.

"14.6 A: Drum brakes
may be replaced with disc brakes of a diameter equal to or greater
than the inside diameter of the standard drum. Such conversions
must be bolted, not welded, to the axle/trailing arm/upright and must
include an integral, redundant emergency brake"

And FSP doesnt even list the Yaris in it's category.

[ilikerice]

I don't know where you got that from ez, but It clearly states in the SCCA book under
82 — 2015 SCCA® National Solo® Rules
14. Street Touring®
14.6 BRAKES
A. Non-standard brake rotors may be used provided they are of equal
or larger dimensions (diameter and thickness) and made of ferrous
material (e.g., iron). Thickness includes the individual plates of a
vented rotor, as well as the overall dimension. The diameter for replacement
rotors is measured at the minimum outside dimension.
Aluminum rotor hats are allowed. Cars originally equipped with solid
(non-vented) rotors may utilize vented rotors. Cross-drilled and/or
slotted brake rotors may be fitted provided all such voids are within
the disc area and comprise no more than 10% of that area. Brake
calipers and mounting brackets may be replaced provided they bolt
to the standard locations and the number of pistons is equal to or
greater than standard. A functioning emergency brake of the same
type, operation, and actuation as OE must be present. Drum brakes
may be replaced with disc brakes of a diameter equal to or greater
than the inside diameter of the standard drum. Such conversions
must be bolted, not welded, to the axle/trailing arm/upright and must
include an integral, redundant emergency brake. Changes to backing
plates/dust shields/brake lines to accommodate these changes
are permitted but may serve no other purpose.

I don't see anywhere it talks about rear drums...

Street Prepared
15.6.E. Drum brakes may be replaced with disc brakes. Disc brake rotors
for such a conversion must be equal to or greater in diameter than
the inside diameter of the standard brake drum. Changes to backing
plates/mounting brackets/brake lines to accommodate this change
are permitted but may serve no other purpose. Drum-to-disc brake
conversions must be bolted, not welded, to the axle/control arm/upright.

You are correct, I do not see yaris listed in any part of the Street Prepared cars that are listed. So it would go straight to SMF.

[ezhacker1]

14. Street Touring®
14.6 BRAKES
A. Non-standard brake rotors may be used provided they are of equal
or larger dimensions (diameter and thickness) and made of ferrous
material (e.g., iron). Thickness includes the individual plates of a
vented rotor, as well as the overall dimension. The diameter for replacement
rotors is measured at the minimum outside dimension.
Aluminum rotor hats are allowed. Cars originally equipped with solid
(non-vented) rotors may utilize vented rotors. Cross-drilled and/or
slotted brake rotors may be fitted provided all such voids are within
the disc area and comprise no more than 10% of that area. Brake
calipers and mounting brackets may be replaced provided they bolt
to the standard locations and the number of pistons is equal to or
greater than standard. A functioning emergency brake of the same
type, operation, and actuation as OE must be present. Drum brakes
may be replaced with disc brakes of a diameter equal to or greater
than the inside diameter of the standard drum. Such conversions
must be bolted, not welded, to the axle/trailing arm/upright and must
include an integral, redundant emergency brake. Changes to backing
plates/dust shields/brake lines to accommodate these changes
are permitted but may serve no other purpose.

.

Like I said i never done AutoX, but a fellow club member raced with JDM rear axle in STF.

[ilikerice]

:thumbsup: hey.. yea, you are correct. I misread that.

[ezhacker1]

No worries, just wanted to clear that up for Ben and maybe yourself if you wanna go JDM axle or rear discs. I love my JDM brakes :)

[ilikerice]

I been wanting to and for the longest I have been on the fence about this because of the fact that this whole time I was under the impression that would throw me into Street Prepared..
Thanks for making me read that again.

[Ben_]

And the lords off the scca rulebook said, let them have disk brakes and rejoice in the glory of eating mini coopers for breakfast

:D

[ezhacker1]

Lol, yes, do it!! Happy to share the knowledge. Just make sure hand brake works, under the rule it needs to have it. JDM, hand brake works perfectly cud is all OEM and everything swaps right in.

[enviri]

yessir. jdm rear discs we toss out the drum ebrakes and makes it for some reliable e-brake skids! :P

[Ben_]

So how much do these JDM parts cost? Where on earth do you buy them? I tried Google searching for a few minutes just now and didn't get very far.....

EBay?

[TitoGot]

Is there a DIY guide available for changing brake pads on a Yaris?