Adjusting rear camber??

[PHXDEMON]

A couple days ago I installed the 13mm penguin rear hub spacers. Needless to say my prolems with the rear tires rubbing the inner fender on bumps got worse and it is hitting metal which scares me :eek: I have gone to the extent of sticking rubber pieces in the springs (DF210s) to stifffen them up, removing the plastic linging from the inner fender, rolling my fenders, and filing some metal from the inside of the wheel well. My options at this point are to either.

A. Get skinnier tires (expensive)

B. See if I can get someone to trade me 10mm spacers for my 13mm's

C. Adjust the rear camber so it clears (hopefully an inexpensive mod)

Anyway I was wondering if there is an easy and relatively cheap way to adjust the rear camber without coilovers.

[mikenacarato]

garm has camber shims in his online store that im sure you could use in junction with the spacers

[PHXDEMON]

garm has camber shims in his online store that im sure you could use in junction with the spacers

Like these? How do they work?

http://shop.microimageonline.com/product.sc?categoryId=4&productId=77

[Loren]

Coilovers wouldn't do a thing for adjusting rear camber.

[CompanyXPaladin]

I've seen Tamago mention in a couple of threads that you can put some washers in with the hub bolts to change your rear alignment. You could look into that if you really need to adjust it.

[Morgan]

add washers to the lower two bolts that go from the brake assembly to the rear hub. Depending on the thickness of the washers you can adjust for more toe in/out (in add a thicker washer to the lower back bolt; toe out add a thicker washer to the lower front bolt) The washers need to be large enough in the center for the bolt to pass through them, I'd take one of the bolts (and something like this (http://cgi.ebay.com/6-Inch-150mm-Plastic-Vernier-Caliper-Measuring-Gauge_W0QQitemZ250436373199QQcmdZViewItem) to check the thickness of the washers to ensure even pairs to both sides)to Home Depot/Lowes to check the washers

[Black Yaris]

rear alignment shims for the Yaris can be found at Napa for $30 each
you just have to pay the going rate for an alignment

[Tamago]

rear alignment shims for the Yaris can be found at Napa for $30 each
you just have to pay the going rate for an alignment

unfortunately they're plastic.

i use 1/2" stainless steel flat washers (about .060" thick) under the lower bolts. install then drive to the alignment rack, and then torque to achieve desired camber/toe.

stainless washers can be had at Ace hardware. i buy mine 25 at a time from Fastenal.

you will have to grind one edge of the washer flat so that it clears the hub.

if interested, i will sell anyone here 4 stainless washers (two each side) that are already ground and ready to install for $8 shipped in the continental US.

[PHXDEMON]

So just to clarify install washers in between the actual hub spacer and the back of the drum on the bottom two bolts correct?

[marcus]

curious what size rims and offset you have and tire tize as well

A couple days ago I installed the 13mm penguin rear hub spacers. Needless to say my prolems with the rear tires rubbing the inner fender on bumps got worse and it is hitting metal which scares me :eek: I have gone to the extent of sticking rubber pieces in the springs (DF210s) to stifffen them up, removing the plastic linging from the inner fender, rolling my fenders, and filing some metal from the inside of the wheel well. My options at this point are to either.

A. Get skinnier tires (expensive)

B. See if I can get someone to trade me 10mm spacers for my 13mm's

C. Adjust the rear camber so it clears (hopefully an inexpensive mod)

Anyway I was wondering if there is an easy and relatively cheap way to adjust the rear camber without coilovers.

[Penguin Garage]

Pics of your setup? :smile:

[Tamago]

So just to clarify install washers in between the actual hub spacer and the back of the drum on the bottom two bolts correct?

yes, between the hub and the spacer. bottom two bolts only.



ONLY IF YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING, AND YOU'VE REACHED THE POINT WHERE YOU CAN'T GET THE CAR TO ROTATE TO YOUR LIKING, you can get rid of some of the toe out by putting one under the front lower bolt only :)

[Loren]

yes, between the hub and the spacer. bottom two bolts only. if you wanted to get rid of some of the toe out, put one under the front lower bolt only :)
Two quick thoughts. One is that in the OE configuration, the clamping force of the hub bolts is spread evenly over the entire hub mating surface. Inserting washers concentrates that force in the area of the washers during hard cornering. Not something I'd worry about when using steel washers between two steel mating surfaces... but insert a softer piece of aluminum in there and it's something to at least be thinking about. I would inspect after a few months to be sure that the washers aren't eating into the aluminum.

The other thought is that just putting a SINGLE washer on the front lower bolt is asking for trouble. You have four bolt holes, the one with the washer will make contact, the one opposite will make contact, and the first of the other two that you tighten will make contact... the last one either will NOT make contact, or something is going to have to BEND equal to the thickness of the washer for it to make contact. Not good.

If you want to adjust both camber AND toe with washers, you need four washers. Two under the bottom bolts (to kick the camber out) and two under the front bolts (to kick the toe out). The end result will be TWO washers under the lower front bolt, one under the bolt above it and one under the bolt behind it, and all mating surfaces will be a lot closer to mating up without bending anything.

[Tamago]

Two quick thoughts. One is that in the OE configuration, the clamping force of the hub bolts is spread evenly over the entire hub mating surface. Inserting washers concentrates that force in the area of the washers during hard cornering. Not something I'd worry about when using steel washers between two steel mating surfaces... but insert a softer piece of aluminum in there and it's something to at least be thinking about. I would inspect after a few months to be sure that the washers aren't eating into the aluminum.

The other thought is that just putting a SINGLE washer on the front lower bolt is asking for trouble. You have four bolt holes, the one with the washer will make contact, the one opposite will make contact, and the first of the other two that you tighten will make contact... the last one either will NOT make contact, or something is going to have to BEND equal to the thickness of the washer for it to make contact. Not good.

If you want to adjust both camber AND toe with washers, you need four washers. Two under the bottom bolts (to kick the camber out) and two under the front bolts (to kick the toe out). The end result will be TWO washers under the lower front bolt, one under the bolt above it and one under the bolt behind it, and all mating surfaces will be a lot closer to mating up without bending anything.

agreed.

i've had the single washer under the front lower bolt (and with aluminum spacers) for 3 years of autocross and have had no issues. so, while in the perfect world it's not recommended, it DOES work without causing any real issues.

like i stated before. install these washers and take the car to the alignment rack.

[Loren]

like i stated before. install these washers and take the car to the alignment rack.
I'll second that.

A little bit of rear toe-out goes a long, long way and can make the car quite scary to drive. I wouldn't recommend it at all for a strictly street-driven car, there is no need for it. And I'd add the caveat to any of this that if you don't know what you're doing or why you're doing it, DON'T do it.

[Tamago]

I'll second that.

A little bit of rear toe-out goes a long, long way and can make the car quite scary to drive. I wouldn't recommend it at all for a strictly street-driven car, there is no need for it. And I'd add the caveat to any of this that if you don't know what you're doing or why you're doing it, DON'T do it.

while my car is within spec it is still slightly toe-out (1/8" total, 1/16" each side) and just as loren stated, if you dont' know what you're doing, dont' do it. i personally LOVE the way my car handles, but i've also taken the risk into my own hands by doing this modification. i apologize for stating it above like it was a common practice :frown:

[Loren]

Not to be argumentative, but toe-out on the rear of a Yaris is NOT in spec at all. The factory spec is .11" total toe in plus or minus .12", so anything more than .01" of toe out is out of spec.

The thing about rear toe is that it allows the rear of the car to "steer" around a turn. It's not inherently dangerous, necessarily... you won't really notice it in normal driving. But, it feels REALLY weird (same feeling you get when the car is about to spin) when it does begin to happen. Could lead to driver compensating with a countersteer when it isn't required, and THAT could be dangerous.

[PHXDEMON]

Two quick thoughts. One is that in the OE configuration, the clamping force of the hub bolts is spread evenly over the entire hub mating surface. Inserting washers concentrates that force in the area of the washers during hard cornering. Not something I'd worry about when using steel washers between two steel mating surfaces... but insert a softer piece of aluminum in there and it's something to at least be thinking about. I would inspect after a few months to be sure that the washers aren't eating into the aluminum.
The other thought is that just putting a SINGLE washer on the front lower bolt is asking for trouble. You have four bolt holes, the one with the washer will make contact, the one opposite will make contact, and the first of the other two that you tighten will make contact... the last one either will NOT make contact, or something is going to have to BEND equal to the thickness of the washer for it to make contact. Not good.

If you want to adjust both camber AND toe with washers, you need four washers. Two under the bottom bolts (to kick the camber out) and two under the front bolts (to kick the toe out). The end result will be TWO washers under the lower front bolt, one under the bolt above it and one under the bolt behind it, and all mating surfaces will be a lot closer to mating up without bending anything.


I actually thought about installing washers like that but didn't because I was concerned about this and the overall structural integrity of the rear suspension.

[Tamago]

Not to be argumentative, but toe-out on the rear of a Yaris is NOT in spec at all. The factory spec is .11" total toe in plus or minus .12", so anything more than .01" of toe out is out of spec.

i don't drive a yaris :wink:

[Black Yaris]

i don't drive a yaris :wink:

pretty sure the alignment specs were the same on my Yaris as they are on my xB

[Tamago]

pretty sure the alignment specs were the same on my Yaris as they are on my xB

do you do your own alignments on a rack?

[Black Yaris]

I did it on a Hunter machine on the Yaris.... but I just watched the last time they did on the toaster..... and I always get print outs....

Back when I worked at the tire shop for a few years I used to run the alignment machine

[Tamago]

I did it on a Hunter machine on the Yaris.... but I just watched the last time they did on the toaster..... and I always get print outs....

Back when I worked at the tire shop for a few years I used to run the alignment machine

hmm, well whatever machine i use at toyota my toe-out is within spec for the xA :)

[Black Yaris]

I am taking my car back to get aligned tomorrow (since I hit a huge crater in the e-way, and blew a tire out)
so I will be able to tell you for sure then

[Black Yaris]

plus I went from a 205/40R17 7in ET45 with 25mm adapters to
205/50R17 7in ET 45 with no adapters

I changed the ride height and track slightly

[PHXDEMON]

Dumb question but is it really Thaaaat important to get an alignment if I just add 4 washers to adjust the camber on the rear but don't mess witht the toe? I just got one 4 months ago and the only place around here that will touch my car charges 70 bucks for an alignment.

[Black Yaris]

yes you NEED an alignment after changing the specs like that..... $100 says most places will not touch it though

[PHXDEMON]

yes you NEED an alignment after changing the specs like that..... $100 says most places will not touch it though

Well in that case. How the fuck do I tweak the front camber a couple negative degrees while I am at it :laugh:

[Tamago]

I am taking my car back to get aligned tomorrow (since I hit a huge crater in the e-way, and blew a tire out)
so I will be able to tell you for sure then

well, remember that the xA and xB are not identical for alignment spec ;)

[Tamago]

Well in that case. How the fuck do I tweak the front camber a couple negative degrees while I am at it :laugh:

buy camber bolts.

[marlondog]

If the spacers are that much of a problem, take them off. No point of messing your car and tires up just to be "cool" and stuff.

[Tamago]

If the spacers are that much of a problem, take them off. No point of messing your car and tires up just to be "cool" and stuff.

this statement is unnecessary. we might as well all drive completely stock vehicles if we live by "your logic"

[PHXDEMON]

Pics of your setup? :smile:

Crappy cellphone pic.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m218/PHXDEMON/img1245300864968.jpg

[Tamago]

have you determined where it's touching? specs on wheels and tires plz

wheel:
width
offset
diameter

tire:
width
aspect

thanks!

iirc you bought 13mm spacers?

where is it rubbing?

btw the car looks good :)

[PHXDEMON]

Wheels are 17x7.5 +42mm offset

The tires are 215/45/17

The tires did rub on the rear a little before installing the spacers. I tried my best to take a pic of where they are rubbing ( as you can see the rear quarter metal is tweaked out a little bit from trying to hammer roll the fenders. The problem is I think the tires are hitting up metal higher in the wheel well.

http://i105.photobucket.com/albums/m218/PHXDEMON/img1245310559864.jpg

[PHXDEMON]

I think adding some toe out on the rear may help but I don't want to prematurely wear the tires.

[yarisugi]

buy camber bolts.
Are the camber bolts for the front or rear, or both? That's the one on Garm's website? (http://shop.microimageonline.com/product.sc?categoryId=4&productId=72)
Is it possible to do rear camber like this? (bad example pic, but you get the picture)
http://www.t-sele.com/customcar_wish3_big.jpg

[PHXDEMON]

Are the camber bolts for the front or rear, or both? That's the one on Garm's website? (http://shop.microimageonline.com/product.sc?categoryId=4&productId=72)
Is it possible to do rear camber like this? (bad example pic, but you get the picture)
http://www.t-sele.com/customcar_wish3_big.jpg

I believe they just work for the front.

[Tamago]

I think adding some toe out on the rear may help but I don't want to prematurely wear the tires.

don't add toe out. as previously discussed, this is a mod to be done for those of us who race almost more than we street-drive. not a good thing to do.

[Loren]

Geez, somebody move this thread to "cosmetic mods" already.

[kngrsll]

Geez, somebody move this thread to "cosmetic mods" already.

LOL

at least they admit they want big brakes for the look

[Penguin Garage]

PHX, some camber in the rear should help alot.

as Tamago said I wouldn't do toe out specifically, and I seriously wouldn't suggest more than -2.0 rear camber.

[cali yaris]

The camber bolts are for the front only, to answer the question. Rear camber uses shims (or washers with the Penguin Garage rear hub spacers).

[bribri]

If you put a washer under each lower bolt wont this also adjust the toe to a little out because the front bolt is higher then the rear?
Would you need more negative camber for track with stock springs and a rear sway bar then stiffer springs all around because the body rolls more? How much camber is too much?

[Tamago]

If you put a washer under each lower bolt wont this also adjust the toe to a little out because the front bolt is higher then the rear?

because the rear suspension is trailing arm, we cannot address this question unless we know how low you've dropped your car. are you at stock height? PLEASE REMEMBER that we are suggesting this mod in conjunction with a trip to the alignment rack to guarantee your specific drop/application doesn't do something unsafe with the camber washers in place!

Would you need more negative camber for track with stock springs and a rear sway bar then stiffer springs all around because the body rolls more?

that's debatable. if you're on stock springs, what tires are you on? if you're tracking your car, the single BEST mod you can do to a stock yaris is better tires. adding rear camber is kind of cart-before-horse if the rest of your car is stock IMO



How much camber is too much?

again, up for debate. if you cannot get rid of most of the built-in toe issues, adding a large amount of rear camber will just help shorten the lifespan of your tires. i personally run around 1.6deg of rear camber, no affect on tire wear (i also have eliminated most of the toe-in from the factory.)

[bribri]

I'm on stock steel 14 inch wheels. Tires are 185/60-14 Bridgstone potenza 960 pole position (all season). I also added a 23mmultra racing sway bar. I figure since the tires feel as if they are rolling before they emit a screaching sound that the tread is not in full contact with the road. Pressure is 38 all around and there is still body roll in the corner (stock springs). I don't want a stiffer ride or to spend more then is necessary to get te car handling great at its limits. Im willing to make allignment adjustments for track and street.

[Tamago]

I'm on stock steel 14 inch wheels. Tires are 185/60-14 Bridgstone potenza 960 pole position (all season). I also added a 23mmultra racing sway bar. I figure since the tires feel as if they are rolling before they emit a screaching sound that the tread is not in full contact with the road. Pressure is 38 all around and there is still body roll in the corner (stock springs). I don't want a stiffer ride or to spend more then is necessary to get te car handling great at its limits. Im willing to make allignment adjustments for track and street.

how much camber are you running up front?

[bribri]

2.2 up frontand 2.4 in the rear. The washers are a little thick. I have 1.5mm washersto replace the thicker ones. Your right abouut the back having too much camber. The outside of the tires only see asphalt during hard corners . I have not measured rear toe but with the thick washers the car rotates nicely without feeling unstable. Front toe is close to 0.

[rob323]

I know the design of the rear torsion beam of the Yaris is a bit different to my Echo in that it has some passive toe change geometry or something built in to it, but has anyone checked what happens to the rear toe when the wheels travels through their stroke?

[Tamago]

I know the design of the rear torsion beam of the Yaris is a bit different to my Echo in that it has some passive toe change geometry or something built in to it, but has anyone checked what happens to the rear toe when the wheels travels through their stroke?

negative camber turns into toe-in apon compression.

[rob323]

That's a bummer, nice and safe from Toyota's point of view I guess.

[Penguin Garage]

We've been hinting at this for a few weeks now.

We've got the Camber Shims ready for shipping.

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19450

[regal]

What does this do to the cars handling?

[Tamago]

What does this do to the cars handling?

did you not install your set yet?

[marcus]

What does this do to the cars handling?

better on turns and less or 0 rub on the fender.

[regal]

not yet my cars stilll in the body shop from the deer hit

[botchilah]

I also had rubbing problems when I went 17X7 ET43 with 205/45R17 tires in my Yaris. I wasn't sure where exactly the rear tires were rubbing but when I got the 10mm Penguin Garage hub spacers, along with a 1' rubber spacer for my Tanabe NF210 springs, the problem vanished. My problem now is rear toe is f*****d :( The driver's side is toe-in, the passenger side is toe-out lol. At least my camber is within spec although I've been thinking of putting a bit of toe-out at the back and slightly more camber up front. Sigh and I swore I'd stop spending on the Yaris for now lol

I'm lazy about getting the shims and an alignment and I misplaced the shims that came with the Penguin Hub Spacers (I think it came with shims? lol)

PS the Penguin guys were great to deal with! ;)

[whooppee777]

has your issue been resolved? i need to add camber to my rear wheels to and or remove the hub spacers so i can lower my car more

[PHXDEMON]

has your issue been resolved? i need to add camber to my rear wheels to and or remove the hub spacers so i can lower my car more

No, I'm still rubbing. I have been too busy recently with buying a house/moving to fix it :frown:

[ozmdd]

started new thread instead

[randode]

do not shim your hub with washers....
scary.

[Tamago]

do not shim your hub with washers....
scary.

i think you should leave now.

your ability to type words outweighs your intelligence and experience.

[lilredrocket]

I think he is spamming

[Tamago]

I think he is spamming

randode is a scion guy. he's legit.

but it's in VERY bad taste to come over here supplying a similar product (of much crappier quality) to undercut penguin garage, etc

http://i35.tinypic.com/1zb72wj.jpg