What I've Learned From...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

What I've learned from SDA's and their bible studies are (at least with the church my ex/gf working things out with): 1. It's a religion dedicated to bashing Catholicism. Every bible study that I've went to always bashed on it, it's annoying. 2. My ex's sis asked their church leader about the part in the bible where the Christians went to Jerico (I think) and slaughtered the people (non-Christians) there; and how killing is against the bible, and the leader said that it was okay because "God wants everyone in the world to hear his world and doesn't want anyone in their way, so it's right to destroy those people."

hmmm, seems like the more I go to these bible studies, the more I dislike SDA's. I'm trying my best to respect them, but they're really pushing it. If they're trying to convert me, they're doing a lousy job and the exact opposite. Why would I want to go to a religion who is intolerant of other religions, and one that sees killing as being "okay". :thumbdown:

[silver_echo]

freakin' holy war batman...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

freakin' holy war batman...

LMAO. This really does worry me. It reminds me of Hitler and the slaughtering of the Jews.

[SilverBack]

Sounds like every religion in the world to me. IMO religion is just an excuse via politics to start wars around the world and strike delusional fear that doesn't exist.

Go Atheist, you'll be alot happier. Take it from someone who ditched religion years ago, it works :cool:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Sounds like every religion in the world to me. IMO religion is just an excuse via politics to start wars around the world and strike delusional fear that doesn't exist.

Go Atheist, you'll be alot happier. Take it from someone who ditched religion years ago, it works :cool:

Because of all of this, I now don't believe in religion, but I do believe in God. So that makes me an agnostic.

[1NZYaris1]

Because of all of this, I now don't believe in religion, but I do believe in God. So that makes me an agnostic.

No it just makes you human , :clap: :bow:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Thank you. hehehe.

[gokartride]

Interfacing with formal religious groups these days can be very tricky. The paradox is that at the same time, much can be found within religious thought that is very meaningful and relevant and profound. This is at the heart or core of religion, however, and there is much chatter to get past. Sad but true.....but it is there, and well worth finding, and can be done. It's easier forget the whole thing and deny the relevancy of faith altogether, but that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and in the end I think that is an unacceptible impoverishment.

[MadMax]

Because of all of this, I now don't believe in religion, but I do believe in God. So that makes me an agnostic.

Errrr...not quite. An agnostic is "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God; 2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

An agnostic doesn't necessarily believe there is a God, nor do they believe there isn't a God. It is a "wait and see" position.

You have faith, but not religion; and there is nothing wrong with that. Religion is a man-made institution that some felt was necessary to believe, you are simply cutting out the middleman! :w00t:

[Tamago]

sounds like your GF ran into the wrong SDA's. there's always bad apples in religion.

and yes, most of the shit in the world traces back directly to the roman catholic church, sadly.

[Loren]

Because of all of this, I now don't believe in religion, but I do believe in God. So that makes me an agnostic.
If you believe in a god, you're not agnostic. An agnostic, by definition, is one who does not KNOW whether or or not a god exists.

Edit: What Max said.

[staticorex]

^ still, we got his point. :p

[Tamago]

what does an dyslexic agnostic insomniac to at night?

[gokartride]

most of the shit in the world traces back directly to the roman catholic church, sadly.I prefer to think abuse of power and overinflated egos is more to blame. This happen in many places.

[Tamago]

I prefer to think abuse of power and overinflated egos is more to blame. This happen in many places.

yup. so religion is to blame. who cares which fingers get pointed at which churches?

[Tamago]

what does an dyslexic agnostic insomniac to at night?



he lies in bed sleepless wondering if there really is a dog

[TLyttle]

These guys keep coming around to my place doing "God's Work", and sometimes they are just too goofy. Most of them are using religion as a crutch to help them through their sorry lives; beer works just as well.

My buddy just tells them he's Wiccan, and very happy with the lack of conflict his religion offers. They just buzz off...

[TinyGiant]

religion is what man basically does to relate with God. trusting in God and being religious can and usually are two different things.. Religion is more or less ritual. one thing Jesus spoke against was the mundane ritual relation they had with God. God wants us to have freedom in Christ and salvation.. he wants genuine connections not ritual.

here is a little useful something i found online a few min ago that can sorta outline that.(note i havent read any other stuff on this site so i dont know what you will find. but this seemed pretty spot on)

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/helpseek/religion.htm

[TinyGiant]

RELIGION is man trying to BRING HIMSELF TO GOD (by human effort, good works, ritualism, traditionalism, sacraments, etc.).

CHRISTIANITY is Christ BRINGING US TO GOD on the basis of what He did for us on the cross (1 Peter 3:18).



I think its completely possible to not be religious and still believe in God. But on the contrary believing in God isnt all that needs to happen. Satan Believes in God. The Bible outlines that salvation is through Christ.

Look at when Jesus was on the cross. There were two theives up there with him. One of them said to Jesus that he knew he was the messaih.. Jesus told him that he would go to heaven that day. Its understanding that Christ saves us from our sins.. not the rest of the religious stuff.. Jesus didn't say to him.. sorry chum.. there is no time today to get baptized.. or well today is a friday.. and you have to go to church at least once.. being nailed there.. i dont think your going to make it. lol he belived and was saved through Christ's sacrifice.

I'm a Christian and have been since i was 5 been studying scripture ever since. its interesting and deeper than anything you'll ever read. But with anything people can twist scripture to fit what they want people to believe.

I had a summer long talk with the jehovah's witnesses last summer and was able to study thier beliefs.. which are nothing short of cultic. they litterally change words in the scriptures and demand that all of the JW are not allowed to study scripture without elders there to guide them. basically they arent allowed to see the truth at all since they have to be spoon fed slop from the JW elders.

God gave us brains for a reason. He wants us to use them. not follow blindly but to search for him with our whole being. :)

Its good that you are using your head when dealing with a new church. Anytime i visit a church that i've never been to i always am on guard a little because you are never sure what you are going to come across.. there are alot of people who , with best intentions, are just a little off.

The fact that you are noticing how off they are proves you are on the right track :) We'll never have the answers and thats the faith that we need to have. But in the same respect we should always be searching and trying to learn as much as we can about God through the scripture :)

[Tamago]

i thought religious topics had been banned on yarisworld already.

[gokartride]

Well, in relation to the OP, some of the coolest, most aware people I have ever known were religious...but they were in universities or leaders/elders in some way. Very expansive thinkers...they knew the inner workings and dynamics of the full scope their religion, including how it could/is being abused. There are a lot of religious types I would be less inclined to listen to...but some of these folks are great!!!

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Errrr...not quite. An agnostic is "One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God; 2. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism."

An agnostic doesn't necessarily believe there is a God, nor do they believe there isn't a God. It is a "wait and see" position.

You have faith, but not religion; and there is nothing wrong with that. Religion is a man-made institution that some felt was necessary to believe, you are simply cutting out the middleman! :w00t:

Woops, I thought wrong. hahaha. But yeah, thanks for letting me know.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

sounds like your GF ran into the wrong SDA's. there's always bad apples in religion.

and yes, most of the shit in the world traces back directly to the roman catholic church, sadly.

hahaha, yeah, their SDA church has only been around for I think two years.

I'm not defending Catholicism by any means, as I do not agree with certain things they do (I was baptized as a Catholic, however), but that's why I don't believe in religion any more. To me, religion simply wants you to be a member of theirs, and instills fear onto their followers. And it seems like each religion belittles each other. Imo, there is not right religion to get into heaven/hell/what have you. You (you as in the general, not you Tamago) believe in what you believe in, and that's fine my me, as long as you can respect other people's beliefs.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

what does an dyslexic agnostic insomniac to at night?

LMAO. You might want to add ADHD to that. hahahaha.

Sorry to those offended, I thought it was a funny joke.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

religion is what man basically does to relate with God. trusting in God and being religious can and usually are two different things.. Religion is more or less ritual. one thing Jesus spoke against was the mundane ritual relation they had with God. God wants us to have freedom in Christ and salvation.. he wants genuine connections not ritual.

here is a little useful something i found online a few min ago that can sorta outline that.(note i havent read any other stuff on this site so i dont know what you will find. but this seemed pretty spot on)

http://www.middletownbiblechurch.org/helpseek/religion.htm

Not what my ex's SDA group thinks. I've said it before to her, but she didn't accept it.

[Tamago]

hahaha, yeah, their SDA church has only been around for I think two years.

I'm not defending Catholicism by any means, as I do not agree with certain things they do (I was baptized as a Catholic, however), but that's why I don't believe in religion any more. To me, religion simply wants you to be a member of theirs, and instills fear onto their followers. And it seems like each religion belittles each other. Imo, there is not right religion to get into heaven/hell/what have you. You (you as in the general, not you Tamago) believe in what you believe in, and that's fine my me, as long as you can respect other people's beliefs.

by just going to church one day a week, your odds of "making it to heaven" are about 1 in 7.

religion is not the answer.

think of it like this.

some of us went to school and learned and excelled. Church is just Religion School

and some of us do better being home-schooled.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

RELIGION is man trying to BRING HIMSELF TO GOD (by human effort, good works, ritualism, traditionalism, sacraments, etc.).

CHRISTIANITY is Christ BRINGING US TO GOD on the basis of what He did for us on the cross (1 Peter 3:18).



I think its completely possible to not be religious and still believe in God. But on the contrary believing in God isnt all that needs to happen. Satan Believes in God. The Bible outlines that salvation is through Christ.

Look at when Jesus was on the cross. There were two theives up there with him. One of them said to Jesus that he knew he was the messaih.. Jesus told him that he would go to heaven that day. Its understanding that Christ saves us from our sins.. not the rest of the religious stuff.. Jesus didn't say to him.. sorry chum.. there is no time today to get baptized.. or well today is a friday.. and you have to go to church at least once.. being nailed there.. i dont think your going to make it. lol he belived and was saved through Christ's sacrifice.

I'm a Christian and have been since i was 5 been studying scripture ever since. its interesting and deeper than anything you'll ever read. But with anything people can twist scripture to fit what they want people to believe.

I had a summer long talk with the jehovah's witnesses last summer and was able to study thier beliefs.. which are nothing short of cultic. they litterally change words in the scriptures and demand that all of the JW are not allowed to study scripture without elders there to guide them. basically they arent allowed to see the truth at all since they have to be spoon fed slop from the JW elders.

God gave us brains for a reason. He wants us to use them. not follow blindly but to search for him with our whole being. :)

Its good that you are using your head when dealing with a new church. Anytime i visit a church that i've never been to i always am on guard a little because you are never sure what you are going to come across.. there are alot of people who , with best intentions, are just a little off.

The fact that you are noticing how off they are proves you are on the right track :) We'll never have the answers and thats the faith that we need to have. But in the same respect we should always be searching and trying to learn as much as we can about God through the scripture :)

I've always found your posts in my threads to be well said. But the things you and I believe in, SDA's refuse to believe in. They HAVE to believe in the bible, which brings me to think...

...in the bible, slavery is an okay thing. So, that means my ex's church leader should be enslaved? I'm sorry, but there are too many things that contradict in the bible for me to believe in it.

Also, on another note, the bible and/or SDA's say that the world's knowledge means nothing to God, correct? So tell me why in one of the their church meetings, they mention how scientists who conducted scientific research have found that breakfast is something needed by humans to stay healthy? I'm sorry, but didn't they just tell me that the world's knowledge is incorrect and means nothing? So why use science in their lectures?

Again, too many things wrong.


Furthermore, the last bible study, the leader mentions vines and wine, and says "what do you think of when you hear vines? Grapes." Ummm, no, I was actually thinking of plants that grow on walls, sticks, etc, like golden honeysuckles.

I hate it how their leader says that the bible interprets itself, but and uses another verse to interpret another verse, but uses his opinions and stuff (like that grape vine) on the verse that's interpreting the other. Umm, so that's not the bible interpreting itself, it's him that is.

[Tamago]

sounds like you have a problem with the people. the actual religion is not NEARLY as creepy as they're making it sound to you. shame you've met some retarded apples.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

by just going to church one day a week, your odds of "making it to heaven" are about 1 in 7.

religion is not the answer.

think of it like this.

some of us went to school and learned and excelled. Church is just Religion School

and some of us do better being home-schooled.

hahaha, by me going to church on Sunday makes my odds of going to heaven 0 in 7, and a bazillion in 7 in the eyes of SDA's since I'm not going to church on Saturday.

I'm sorry, but the bible never says anything about Monday, Tuesday, etc; but rather, First Day, Second Day, etc. So who is to assign Sunday to First Day, and Saturday to Seventh Day?

[Tamago]

So who is to assign Sunday to First Day, and Saturday to Seventh Day?

go look at your calendar buddy.. :wink: i don't understand why people have a problem getting their head around this.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

sounds like you have a problem with the people. the actual religion is not NEARLY as creepy as they're making it sound to you. shame you've met some retarded apples.

Yeah, I think so too. I mean, I still respect the SDA religion, as I think respecting others is important, but the things the leaders are teaching is just, well, extraordinary. He's saying that if you break one thing, that all your "good work" is nothing.

I've also asked my ex about our relatives who have passed, and since they were not SDA's and didn't follow the bible, does that make them have a higher chance of being in hell than heaven? She replies by saying that she cannot answer that, and only God can judge. I also said the same thing about that thief who went to heaven. Ummm, yeah, well, then leave me the **** alone if it is God that can say where I go. I seriously refuse to think if you're a genuinely good person, but do not follow the bible, then you're pretty much condemned to hell. That's seriously stupid...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

go look at your calendar buddy.. :wink: i don't understand why people have a problem getting their head around this.

I realize that, but isn't our calendar based on non-Christians? So why would Christians utilize it and base the biblical days onto it?

[Tamago]

I seriously refuse to think if you're a genuinely good person, but do not follow the bible, then you're pretty much condemned to hell. That's seriously stupid...

if you dont' follow the bible, which means you don't worship god, do you think you'd be happy in heaven?

you'd get there and be like "worship what?? hell no, i'm not worshipping god"

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Well, in relation to the OP, some of the coolest, most aware people I have ever known were religious...but they were in universities or leaders/elders in some way. Very expansive thinkers...they knew the inner workings and dynamics of the full scope their religion, including how it could/is being abused. There are a lot of religious types I would be less inclined to listen to...but some of these folks are great!!!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I hate religious people or religion for that matter. I just hate how people use religion to instill fear and hatred in people. I mean, come on, SDA's are HIGHLY against homosexuality. Ummm, isn't that being judgmental and hateful, which is against the bible?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

if you dont' follow the bible, which means you don't worship god, do you think you'd be happy in heaven?

you'd get there and be like "worship what?? hell no, i'm not worshipping god"

LOL. I don't think I need to follow the bible to worship God. Otherwise, I'd be worshiping the bible.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

i thought religious topics had been banned on yarisworld already.

LOL. Religious and political topics get banned when they get out of hand. If they can be discussed in a civil manner, they do not need to be closed.

Good discussion with ya, btw.

[Tamago]

I realize that, but isn't our calendar based on non-Christians? So why would Christians utilize it and base the biblical days onto it?

think about it.

if non-christians designed our calendar THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO and religion has adopted it, without changing it to their benefit (catholic church actually attempted to change the calendar, and the USSR tried a 5 day week which was a disaster) don't you think that makes it MORE legit?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

think about it.

if non-christians designed our calendar THOUSANDS OF YEARS AGO and religion has adopted it, without changing it to their benefit (catholic church actually attempted to change the calendar, and the USSR tried a 5 day week which was a disaster) don't you think that makes it MORE legit?

You kinda lost me, but no, I don't.

I just want to know why we simply cannot take a day out of our week to do our observances to God. Why does it have to be a specific day? Wouldn't God be happy with people taking a day out of their busy schedule to think about Him?

[Tamago]

LOL. I don't think I need to follow the bible to worship God. Otherwise, I'd be worshiping the bible.

does the bible not say to worship god?

do you follow the 10 commandments?

if you don't follow the bible but think you're gonna get into heaven, that's like NOT STUDYING for your SAT and expecting to pass with flying colors.... :iono:

(by the way, to clear this up, i am no longer an SDA or a religious person in any way really. i just don't like seeing a religion that did me no harm being represented as poorly as it's been presented to you.)

[Tamago]

You kinda lost me, but no, I don't.

I just want to know why we simply cannot take a day out of our week to do our observances to God. Why does it have to be a specific day? Wouldn't God be happy with people taking a day out of their busy schedule to think about Him?

one of the 10 commandments is "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, 6 days shalt thou labor blah blah blah but the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy god blah blah blah"

so, if you want to worship god because you respect him, wouldn't it also be respectful to do it on the day he asked you to? if you don't it makes you kind of arrogant.. like if you were going to go to a car meet that met on tuesdays but you only showed up on wednesdays..

[Kaotic Lazagna]

does the bible not say to worship god?

do you follow the 10 commandments?

if you don't follow the bible but think you're gonna get into heaven, that's like NOT STUDYING for your SAT and expecting to pass with flying colors.... :iono:

(by the way, to clear this up, i am no longer an SDA or a religious person in any way really. i just don't like seeing a religion that did me no harm being represented as poorly as it's been presented to you.)

You got me wrong, I'm not saying that SDA's are bad. I'm just saying that their beliefs is not the same as mine, and I do not see why everyone cannot simply respect other people's beliefs.

I do follow the 10 Commandments, but the whole Sabbath day to me is different. Like I said before, why should there be a specific day for me to worship God and his creations?

[Tamago]

Like I said before, why should there be a specific day for me to worship God and his creations?

...because god asked us to... pretty specifically actually.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

one of the 10 commandments is "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy, 6 days shalt thou labor blah blah blah but the seventh day is the sabbath of the lord thy god blah blah blah"

so, if you want to worship god because you respect him, wouldn't it also be respectful to do it on the day he asked you to? if you don't it makes you kind of arrogant.. like if you were going to go to a car meet that met on tuesdays but you only showed up on wednesdays..

I'm really wondering who assigned which days to which names. You might know, and if you, please tell me. I'm all up for learning.

Like I told my ex, I do not associate myself with any religion, but rather take what I think is good from what I learn about religions, and apply it to my beliefs.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

...because god asked us to... pretty specifically actually.

Where does it say in the bible that the Seventh Day is Saturday (I can say the same for Catholics and say Sunday [I do realize that the Pope said it should be Sunday]).

[Tamago]

Where does it say in the bible that the Seventh Day is Saturday (I can say the same for Catholics and say Sunday [I do realize that the Pope said it should be Sunday]).

saturday has been the 7th day of the week since the dawn of time. i'm no historian but you can look this up dating to non-religious works and writings and verify that saturday is the seventh day. i'm not going to do your research for you ;)

[Kaotic Lazagna]

On another note, if someone was about to kill your (again, being general here) family, and you had a gun right next to you, would you not use it?

Or if there was a major natural disaster, and your family was starving, would you not steal a loaf of bread to keep them alive?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

saturday has been the 7th day of the week since the dawn of time. i'm no historian but you can look this up dating to non-religious works and writings and verify that saturday is the seventh day. i'm not going to do your research for you ;)

hahaha, do me a favor and bump this thread up again later on in the night. I have another class soon, and some hw to finish before hand.

[Tamago]

On another note, if someone was about to kill your (again, being general here) family, and you had a gun right next to you, would you not use it?

Or if there was a major natural disaster, and your family was starving, would you not steal a loaf of bread to keep them alive?

why steal when you can barter?

why kill when you can disable?

[Tamago]

hahaha, do me a favor and bump this thread up again later on in the night. I have another class soon, and some hw to finish before hand.

it's GuinnessThirty here.. i'll see what i can come up with lol

[TinyGiant]

I've always found your posts in my threads to be well said. But the things you and I believe in, SDA's refuse to believe in. They HAVE to believe in the bible, which brings me to think...

...in the bible, slavery is an okay thing. So, that means my ex's church leader should be enslaved? I'm sorry, but there are too many things that contradict in the bible for me to believe in it.

Also, on another note, the bible and/or SDA's say that the world's knowledge means nothing to God, correct? So tell me why in one of the their church meetings, they mention how scientists who conducted scientific research have found that breakfast is something needed by humans to stay healthy? I'm sorry, but didn't they just tell me that the world's knowledge is incorrect and means nothing? So why use science in their lectures?

Again, too many things wrong.


Furthermore, the last bible study, the leader mentions vines and wine, and says "what do you think of when you hear vines? Grapes." Ummm, no, I was actually thinking of plants that grow on walls, sticks, etc, like golden honeysuckles.

I hate it how their leader says that the bible interprets itself, but and uses another verse to interpret another verse, but uses his opinions and stuff (like that grape vine) on the verse that's interpreting the other. Umm, so that's not the bible interpreting itself, it's him that is.


one thing alot of people misunderstand is that the bible was written with huge cultural context. Slavery wasnt as it was before the cival war days here in the US .. people or countries would be enslaved to a person or country who had conquered their land. Or people could actually sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt or to give money to their family while they worked as slaves (manual labor to pay off debt) In many instances it wasnt voluntary.. or right but .. what i am saying is the bible was written with huge cultural points.

Some babtist and other legalistic denominations believe that a woman should always have long hair because the bible says that women should have a long hair or have thier heads covered in order to not be a distraction in church. what most people dont know is that prostitutes would shave their heads in those times and if one went to church bald it would get the men thinking of things they shouldnt be. and all people go to church should be seen on the same level.. we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. So for a women to cover her head it was more of a cultural thing than anything. This is one of the more interesting things of the bible is you can read it all you want .. but if you really want to understand it you have to dig back to the greek and understand the meanings and context in which things are said. these contexts and misunderstandings are where alot of churches and religions get off base.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

why steal when you can barter?

why kill when you can disable?

How can you barter when no one is around? I mean, during Katrina, people were talked about on the news for stealing bread from a bakery that was not attended.

If I could, I would disable a person before using lethal forces. But let's say that you were in a physical position that will not disable a person fully, but were in a position that aims the gun straight to the head, and only have one bullet, where the killer has multiple bullets? I'm not saying that killing is right, and I highly think it is wrong, but if it means keeping my family alive, I will resort to it.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

it's GuinnessThirty here.. i'll see what i can come up with lol

:laugh:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

one thing alot of people misunderstand is that the bible was written with huge cultural context. Slavery wasnt as it was before the cival war days here in the US .. people or countries would be enslaved to a person or country who had conquered their land. Or people could actually sell themselves into slavery to pay off a debt or to give money to their family while they worked as slaves (manual labor to pay off debt) In many instances it wasnt voluntary.. or right but .. what i am saying is the bible was written with huge cultural points.

Some babtist and other legalistic denominations believe that a woman should always have long hair because the bible says that women should have a long hair or have thier heads covered in order to not be a distraction in church. what most people dont know is that prostitutes would shave their heads in those times and if one went to church bald it would get the men thinking of things they shouldnt be. and all people go to church should be seen on the same level.. we are all sinners and all fall short of the glory of God. So for a women to cover her head it was more of a cultural thing than anything. This is one of the more interesting things of the bible is you can read it all you want .. but if you really want to understand it you have to dig back to the greek and understand the meanings and context in which things are said. these contexts and misunderstandings are where alot of churches and religions get off base.

The same for the verse in the bible that states that women should not speak in church and if they want to learn anything, go home and ask their husbands. I mean, seriously, my ex's church leader makes it out that they have to follow everything the bible says, so why do I see women speaking in their church?

[Kaotic Lazagna]

If you guys want to keep discussing, please do so (civilly, I want to keep this thread open). I really have to get going. hahaha. Later Tamago (what's your real name, btw?).

[Tamago]

How can you barter when no one is around? I mean, during Katrina, people were talked about on the news for stealing bread from a bakery that was not attended.

If I could, I would disable a person before using lethal forces. But let's say that you were in a physical position that will not disable a person fully, but were in a position that aims the gun straight to the head, and only have one bullet, where the killer has multiple bullets? I'm not saying that killing is right, and I highly think it is wrong, but if it means keeping my family alive, I will resort to it.

well one of the ten commandments is Thou Shalt Not Kill..

but the bible also teaches that you can repent of your sins. the unpardonable sin is the sin of disbelief or chosen ignorance.

would one loaf of bread keep your family alive? i know your reference is full of holes and i'm not going to exploit them. i mean, taking the food without paying for it is definitely not a "christian" thing to do. But what's to stop you from returning later to repay what you've taken? is it then considered theft? i think personal conviction would be outweighed by common sense in most cases and you'd take the food to save your family, but if you were convicted to return later to the shop and pay for what you "stole" then you're on the right track.


does god the fact that YOUR FAMILY is more important than some bum who's gonna kill them? to you, your family is more important than some bum. but would it be fair for God to say "go ahead, kill him, he's just a bum" ? or in the end would the bum get his ultimate "reward" for killing?

and by all means i'd do everything i could to protect my family. the most "christian" thing of all would be to use yourself as a shield to protect your family lol.. :laugh:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Ah, you make me want to stay. But one last reply.

I really do think it's just their leader then, because like my first post here, their leader said that it was okay that those people were killed because they were not Christians, and would get in the way of God's word. And here I am thinking that killing is one of the worse sins one can do.

[TinyGiant]

I've always found your posts in my threads to be well said. But the things you and I believe in, SDA's refuse to believe in. They HAVE to believe in the bible, which brings me to think...

...in the bible, slavery is an okay thing. So, that means my ex's church leader should be enslaved? I'm sorry, but there are too many things that contradict in the bible for me to believe in it.

Also, on another note, the bible and/or SDA's say that the world's knowledge means nothing to God, correct? So tell me why in one of the their church meetings, they mention how scientists who conducted scientific research have found that breakfast is something needed by humans to stay healthy? I'm sorry, but didn't they just tell me that the world's knowledge is incorrect and means nothing? So why use science in their lectures?

Again, too many things wrong.


Furthermore, the last bible study, the leader mentions vines and wine, and says "what do you think of when you hear vines? Grapes." Ummm, no, I was actually thinking of plants that grow on walls, sticks, etc, like golden honeysuckles.

I hate it how their leader says that the bible interprets itself, but and uses another verse to interpret another verse, but uses his opinions and stuff (like that grape vine) on the verse that's interpreting the other. Umm, so that's not the bible interpreting itself, it's him that is.



i wish you lived around here. some friends of mine and I get together weekly and have open discussion about this sort of stuff .. we do it at a local resturant and its really a blast to discuss all sorts of stuff. a few weeks back we talked about the validity of scripture .. and it was very interesting people brought up the fact that the books of the bible were chosen by a group.. it wasnt like they chose from a hat .. but it led some people to question what if some books were left out? granted there are books and writings that defintely dont belong in the bible .. lol but it was interesting to talk about .. they also mentioned that the first new testament writings they have found date to like 150 ad or something .. so they werent the writings of the actual apostles.. but their accounts passed down and recorded later on. some of which it says is the actual words.. some maybe not

but God's ultimate strength and power would easily beable to give us what he wants to have in the bible. I believe that the scripture wouldnt have survived what it has been subject to and not be valid.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Also, to further explain my self again, I do not think religion is all bad. I mean, what ever gets one closer to God is a good thing. And if you don't believe in God, but believe in another god (or the lack thereof), it's fine by me. Like I said, believe what you believe, they're your beliefs and no one should impose their beliefs onto you.

[areithan1980]

It's all about personal relationship with God through Christ basically before you even get in to more deeper issues like the Bible, "religion" coz really non of those can really change you but you now if u don't believe in God that's a whole different ball game. Once you established a more solid foundation and relationship with Him all these things Bible, God, religion etc. will make more sense to you and I Love My Yaris!!!!!! :P

[Kaotic Lazagna]

i wish you lived around here. some friends of mine and I get together weekly and have open discussion about this sort of stuff .. we do it at a local resturant and its really a blast to discuss all sorts of stuff. a few weeks back we talked about the validity of scripture .. and it was very interesting people brought up the fact that the books of the bible were chosen by a group.. it wasnt like they chose from a hat .. but it led some people to question what if some books were left out? granted there are books and writings that defintely dont belong in the bible .. lol but it was interesting to talk about .. they also mentioned that the first new testament writings they have found date to like 150 ad or something .. so they werent the writings of the actual apostles.. but their accounts passed down and recorded later on. some of which it says is the actual words.. some maybe not

but God's ultimate strength and power would easily beable to give us what he wants to have in the bible. I believe that the scripture wouldnt have survived what it has been subject to and not be valid.

That would be nice to eat and discuss, but this will have to do. I mean, I'm not saying the bible is bad, I'm just saying that I do not agree with some things it says. There are a lot of good in it, but there are some things that I consider to be wrong in it.

[TinyGiant]

we have women in our churches that preach :) (to reply to the post that never made it up here)

feel free to site some things that you dont agree with and i'd be glad to do some research and try to shed some light on them :)

[Tamago]

Ah, you make me want to stay. But one last reply.

I really do think it's just their leader then, because like my first post here, their leader said that it was okay that those people were killed because they were not Christians, and would get in the way of God's word. And here I am thinking that killing is one of the worse sins one can do.

that is creepy as fuck.

get your girlfriend out of there ASAP and find some normal people (or even normal SDA's)

[Bob Dog]

Don't walk run, this is not religion within any kind of reasonable social parameter, this is unreasoning rationalization and mind control, more commonly known as a cult. Get her out of forget her.

[Tamago]

Don't walk run, this is not religion within any kind of reasonable social parameter, this is unreasoning rationalization and mind control, more commonly known as a cult. Get her out of forget her.

it's not a cult

she just met some creepy people.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

we have women in our churches that preach :) (to reply to the post that never made it up here)

feel free to site some things that you dont agree with and i'd be glad to do some research and try to shed some light on them :)

Will do. When ever I have a question during their bible studies, I'll save it and ask you. :thumbsup:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

that is creepy as fuck.

get your girlfriend out of there ASAP and find some normal people (or even normal SDA's)

HAHAHAHA. I won't be able to persuade her to go to another church since I think this is the closest SDA church.

[TinyGiant]

Will do. When ever I have a question during their bible studies, I'll save it and ask you. :thumbsup:

sweet i'll do my best to answer them for you :)

i'll give you some questions to ask them too :)

and i'll give you the correct answers to those questions so you can come back with another question. :)

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Oh, no, I won't ask them questions tho. hahahaha.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

You guys are going to get a kick out of what was lectured on at my gf's SDA group's bible study.

Okay, the usual "Catholicism is the anti-Christ" stuff, but then went as far as calling Catholicism a cult. Also, their church leader was saying that America is going to help lead to Armageddon. Wow...Tamago, is this what you learned when you were an SDA? Please tell me no.

[TinyGiant]

http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/statements/main_stat42.html


it seems that all cults .. sda, JW, mormons are all very stuck on end times.. wierd

[Kaotic Lazagna]

hehe, I'll read that after I finish my gov essay. But yeah, they were saying how Ellen G. White was such a great writer at church and the bible study. Man, only if they knew that she went against the bible on pretty much everything, and that she plagiarized from someone else who plagiarized from someone else. hahahahaha. I respect them enough to not bring that up.

[TLyttle]

This stuff is interesting; I was born a Bastard (according to the Bible), and therefore have an objective point of view. I laugh a lot at what some of the JWs, SDAs, and Catholics have to say, because I am "condemned" due to something in the Bible that I have no control over, regardless of what I do. I am retired, and spent a lot of time helping the handicapped, and will easily pass through the "eye of a needle". How easy is it? Really simple: I follow most of the Ten Commandments because they make sense, not because they came from the Bible. I believe in Community rather than Christ, and read ALL publications, not just the Bible.

Live your lives as best you can, not because the Bible says so, but because your Community needs it that way...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Nicely said. I do the same thing, but just because I don't go to church on Saturday, but rather on Sundays, according to SDA's, my efforts at the other 9 commandments means nothing, therefore, I have failed to be a Christian. It is because my encounter with their church leader that I no longer believe in religion, but just in God. I follow the 10 commandments not because I think I'm a Christian, but because like you said, they make sense.

[TinyGiant]

This stuff is interesting; I was born a Bastard (according to the Bible), and therefore have an objective point of view. I laugh a lot at what some of the JWs, SDAs, and Catholics have to say, because I am "condemned" due to something in the Bible that I have no control over, regardless of what I do. I am retired, and spent a lot of time helping the handicapped, and will easily pass through the "eye of a needle". How easy is it? Really simple: I follow most of the Ten Commandments because they make sense, not because they came from the Bible. I believe in Community rather than Christ, and read ALL publications, not just the Bible.

Live your lives as best you can, not because the Bible says so, but because your Community needs it that way...


everyone is born as a sinner, condemned. being a bastard doesnt make you unique.. just the opposite. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. God doesn't care what day you worship on, he cares about your heart and your effort to live for him. Being lukewarm is just as bad as being against God though.. Christ says eternal life is through his salvation.. playing the fence wont get you anywhere according to the scriptures.

I agree with what you are saying though about the 10 commandments making sense.. thats one of the reason i am a Christian. it makes sense. it seems to tie everything together and for me i've felt and seen things that make it irrefutable and impossible to ignore the presence of God in everyday life.


i'll say it a million times .. God doesnt want your religion. i would go as far as to say God hates religion. Jesus targeted and rebuked the religious leaders many many times in the scriptures.. downplaying their focus on works rather than faith. Funny enough many of the cults probably most of them are way more works oriented than faith.. which is interesting. Jesus already paid the price and did the work. we arent saved by works but by faith.. it even says that in the bible. It seems sorta basic idk how so many people miss that or get it wrong.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Tiny, how I wish I can bring you to my gf's SDA group. hehe. I've tried and tried to tell my gf that (about faith, rather than following the bible word for word), and even showed her the verse in which you reference to, but it seems to me like they are brainwashed by their church leader.

They have now stopped eating shell-fish and fish that does not have scales. I guess I won't be eating sushi with my gf anymore.

[TinyGiant]

sushi has the scales removed :tongue:
where the heck is the reasoning for that lol.

God even told us we can eat pork in the scriptures ..


its really tough to unbrainwash people. the key is to break them from mental dependence and try to inspire independent thinking.. which sadly is hugely discouraged especially in legalistic cults and groups. The JW are horrible with this. they literally arent allowed to read the bible on their own. they are only allowed to read what thier watchtower says they can read. They literally believe that Jesus returned to earch invisibly and resides in thier wharehouse in brooklyn NY and the watchtower is his direct connection and communication with their sect. I had a bunch of different JW coming to my door after i stumped a few elders with questions they couldnt answer.. i can only hope i got them thinking for themselves. But I asked how jesus can return invisibly if the bible says when he returns every ear will hear and every tongue will confess. and it says something like it will be like a light seem from all corners of the earth.. lol they couldn't answer that.. basically they were wrong sooo many times saying that Jesus was returning on specific days that they came up with this invisible thing so that the members wouldnt question it. They also used to say that all JW would never die since they thought they would be the 144,000 going with Christ outlined in Rev. they also think that only 144k people are going to heaven. when the first members of the JW started dying they changed thier beliefs to all who live will live again.. and created what they call the slave class.. which is every JW after the original 144k will serve the original ones after armegeddon . its soo twisted. they even say the gates of heaven closed in 1935.. lol i asked them to point that out in the bible .. nothing they say they have scriptural back up for.. i enjoy dealing with things like this.. its like an easter egg hunt through the scriptures .. finding goodies and interesting questions to ask them. they have a hge convention with like 10000 JW in portland ME.. I wanted to go and wear a shirt that said APOSTATE on it and just ask questions all day to them and strike up convo and see where the day leads. lol

[TLyttle]

Bastard just the same, and it IS in the Bible, my grandfather (Presbyterian Minister) said so, many times. I am going to Hell just the same, so I may as well enjoy the trip...

Invisible??? That's hilarious! Sounds like a Cosby standup routine. It doesn't take much to throw most of these cult guys off if one has even the slimmest knowledge of the Bible; it gets to be fun after awhile. My record is intact: I have NEVER sent any of these people away, they always leave on their own accord when they find that they simply don't have the answers. I had the local leader on my step one day; apparently he was sent in to find out why there was so much trouble with members who had come to visit me before, he was gone in 10 minutes.

And they DO change their interpretations to suit the occasion, which just makes them more vulnerable.

Goin' where Nomex is No good...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

sushi has the scales removed :tongue:
where the heck is the reasoning for that lol.

God even told us we can eat pork in the scriptures ..


its really tough to unbrainwash people. the key is to break them from mental dependence and try to inspire independent thinking.. which sadly is hugely discouraged especially in legalistic cults and groups. The JW are horrible with this. they literally arent allowed to read the bible on their own. they are only allowed to read what thier watchtower says they can read. They literally believe that Jesus returned to earch invisibly and resides in thier wharehouse in brooklyn NY and the watchtower is his direct connection and communication with their sect. I had a bunch of different JW coming to my door after i stumped a few elders with questions they couldnt answer.. i can only hope i got them thinking for themselves. But I asked how jesus can return invisibly if the bible says when he returns every ear will hear and every tongue will confess. and it says something like it will be like a light seem from all corners of the earth.. lol they couldn't answer that.. basically they were wrong sooo many times saying that Jesus was returning on specific days that they came up with this invisible thing so that the members wouldnt question it. They also used to say that all JW would never die since they thought they would be the 144,000 going with Christ outlined in Rev. they also think that only 144k people are going to heaven. when the first members of the JW started dying they changed thier beliefs to all who live will live again.. and created what they call the slave class.. which is every JW after the original 144k will serve the original ones after armegeddon . its soo twisted. they even say the gates of heaven closed in 1935.. lol i asked them to point that out in the bible .. nothing they say they have scriptural back up for.. i enjoy dealing with things like this.. its like an easter egg hunt through the scriptures .. finding goodies and interesting questions to ask them. they have a hge convention with like 10000 JW in portland ME.. I wanted to go and wear a shirt that said APOSTATE on it and just ask questions all day to them and strike up convo and see where the day leads. lol

I have no clue why fish without scales is included in the "things not to eat." Oh, oh, where is that in the Bible about we can eat pork? I'll point it out to my gf and her family.

Oh, man, invisible...:laugh:. If that's what they believe, I guess I'll have to respect it.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Bastard just the same, and it IS in the Bible, my grandfather (Presbyterian Minister) said so, many times. I am going to Hell just the same, so I may as well enjoy the trip...

Invisible??? That's hilarious! Sounds like a Cosby standup routine. It doesn't take much to throw most of these cult guys off if one has even the slimmest knowledge of the Bible; it gets to be fun after awhile. My record is intact: I have NEVER sent any of these people away, they always leave on their own accord when they find that they simply don't have the answers. I had the local leader on my step one day; apparently he was sent in to find out why there was so much trouble with members who had come to visit me before, he was gone in 10 minutes.

And they DO change their interpretations to suit the occasion, which just makes them more vulnerable.

Goin' where Nomex is No good...

hahaha, you and Tiny are the only ones that I know that have stump the religious people that go to your door steps. hahaha.

[KCALB SIRAY]

hahaha, you and Tiny are the only ones that I know that have stump the religious people that go to your door steps. hahaha.

when I was just out of school, living in an apartment, I use to get knocks on the doors. After I heard their pitch I would offer them beer and bong hits. Some would take us up on it :laugh:

[TLyttle]

It just ain't near that hard, KL, all you have to do is pay attention; the shot that they hate most is how interesting it will be to see a vegetarian lion! The quote is there in the Bible, unless the SDAs and JWs have deleted it from THEIR version of the book; again, that is something they are very sensitive about you are best to show up with an original King James Version for comparison, they HATE that.

In fact I see ALL religion as a financial power trip: go look at any Catholic Church to see what I mean, particularly in Europe. The JWs are not much better: have a look at the bricks and mortar of their outlet with its self-contained propaganda machine, where all the Watchtowers are printed. Takes as many bux to support that as it does to support the Vatican....

[TinyGiant]

It just ain't near that hard, KL, all you have to do is pay attention; the shot that they hate most is how interesting it will be to see a vegetarian lion! The quote is there in the Bible, unless the SDAs and JWs have deleted it from THEIR version of the book; again, that is something they are very sensitive about you are best to show up with an original King James Version for comparison, they HATE that.

In fact I see ALL religion as a financial power trip: go look at any Catholic Church to see what I mean, particularly in Europe. The JWs are not much better: have a look at the bricks and mortar of their outlet with its self-contained propaganda machine, where all the Watchtowers are printed. Takes as many bux to support that as it does to support the Vatican....

thats the thing that i love about my church. their goals is to give more and more away every year. as of now they build houses to give away to families in need who lose their homes to tradgedy like katrina and such. they donate hundreds of backpacks filled with school supplies to kids in families on welfare. they do all sorts of stuff and are hugely focused on supporting the comunity. They dont want to expand the building and want to keep increasing thier budget in order to support more missions, community outreaches and such. There are tons of big money churches out there I totally know what you mean. i've attended a few and there is definitely a different feel. its nice to be part of something that feels right. my church isnt perfect but they have their priorities straight which is awesome.

funny thing about the KJV.. the JW used to sell KJV bibles before they started writing thier own :)

[talnlnky]

Why would I want to go to a religion who is intolerant of other religions, and one that sees killing as being "okay". :thumbdown:

Check out Baha'i. I'm not a member, nor do I think I will ever be one, but their belief system seems to be much more logical from what I remember from some quick studying I did a few years back.

[TinyGiant]

would you stop believing in math because it its viewed as set in stone too?

for anything to be true some things must be false..

for baha'i to be true Christianity must be false. No religion can be stirred in a Religion Stew with Christianity. you cant be a buddhist and a muslim.. you have to pick one or the other.

[TLyttle]

No problem with that, but in order to pick a religion accurately, one must look at them all equally. In my (much) younger days, I visited many churches, temples, and synagogues with the idea of learning as much as I could about them. End result? I belong to NO church, and I am completely happy with that. I have very little guilt, and if there is a Hell (please, oh please, don't give me another quote from the Bible on that, it doesn't fit into what I am saying here), I'm sure that they haven't reserved the hottest part for me because of how I lived my life.

True? False? All religions are "true" in the eyes of their believers. Go anywhere I went, and the fervent are in every institution, knowing in their hearts that their religion is the "right" one, be they Christian, Muslim, Baha'i, Wiccan, even the late-lamented Church of Monday Night Football!

Personally, I see any church as firstly a control mechanism, secondly as a financial institution, and thirdly as a social club. Control of human behaviour, a money-gathering group with paid employees, and a common ground to meet the neighbours. As time went by, I found that my own sense of right and wrong, my disinterest in money, and my passions and pastimes eliminated my need for church. Many others use the church as a crutch for their lack of character (see JWs for examples).

Have a long look, KL, and you may find that you really don't need a church, either. As far as the "born again" (what went wrong the first time?) girl friend is concerned, I really doubt if the differences between you can be resolved; I have seen it happen before, and the conflict never, ever goes away. Women are like buses: there is always another one coming along in 20 minutes........

[TinyGiant]

its sad that you see churches as that. i think that view is probably based of interaction with churches who dont have their priorities straight.

yes people are paid within the church. but for someone like a pastor/minister to be able to dedicate his time and service 100% he needs an income to be able to live. The bible talks about giving 10% to God.. we get to keep the other 90% .. pretty good deal the way i see it. idk if our church is unique but anyone and everyone can see the complete budget and all members of the church are given the new budget when the new fiscal year starts. if anyone has issues or concerns its hashed out in the annual meeting and resolved. a vast majority of the money that comes into our church goes right back out the door in the food pantry for the homeless/less fortunate, sponsoring missionaries, building homes for those who need them, giving school supplies for needy families.. helping people like myself who had some hardship due to a layoff.. with any community and for any community to thrive it must have the money to sustain itself. Alot of people get hung up on money. Our pastor even discourages people visiting the church from giving an offering, the church doesnt want to viewed as money hungry.. cause thats not what its about.

Christ died for our sins to give us freedom from guilt/sin. The church isnt a control mechanism. well granted there are bad eggs in every situation. but it was never the churches job to control people.

the social club aspect its not really to socialize but to form a community, a group of like minded people searching for the answers and trying to live Godly lives and display God's love for everyone. sadly alot of churches lose sight of this. We are supposed to lovingly keep eachother in check. be genuinely interested in the lives of those around us and help eachother to live better and be good examples for Christ.

KL .. the bible warns us about being unequally yoked.. meaning its best to pair with those who are of one mind. I personally wouldnt go into business with someone who wasnt a Christian beacuse i know at somepoint it would probably cause a problem. in the same way Trying to stay in a relationship that doesnt work beacuse of differences is also futile. God doesnt want us to change people. People have to want to change and change for themselves. Its like those people that hound other people about being christians. God never said that we had to bring people to Christ. Our lives and the way we live and talk should natually bring to the realization of God and all things concerning. sadly modernism has hugely infected Christianity and tries to make workers out of Christians. Changing hearts was never our job and is impossible for us to do. We need to grab a more post-modern perspective and realize that whether a person is a Christian or not has no bearing on our walk with God. We aren't supposed to try to do lots of tasks to try to win our salvation. We are just supposed to live for him and if someone asks for guidance we are to give it .. but I dont think God ever wanted it forced on anyone. why the heck would he give us free will if he didn't want us to use it.

Christianity is the following and exceptance of Jesus Christ/God aka the originator of all things. Wiccans worship the creation.. not the creator, . baha'i teaches that Jesus, Mohammad, Bhuda.. all were correct and they all taught the next messenger. but thats foolsih considering the teachings of each of those people were completely contrary to the next.

here is an interesting thing on the origins of allah.. aka baal
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread139336/pg1

[TLyttle]

Sorry TinyGiant, I don't buy much of that for the simple reason that you have already made up your mind, and therefore objectivity is now foreign to you. I've seen and heard all this before, from various sources, all claiming to have figured it out, but are still tripped up by their religious fervor. As long as you insist on comparing these other beliefs to the Christian standards and find them wanting, then you are following the same path that keeps the JW and SDAs so obnoxious. Tell me that you are a Christian, fine, but please don't tell me that Christianity is the only route through a worthwhile life.

All the religions look for the same results I mentioned, the only exception being the Muslim religion and their fixation about killing infidels to get to heaven: that one is a sad commentary on a World religion. If one need religion to maintain a productive and benevolent life, that is their choice; for the rest of us who live that way without a religious urge, we are happy just the same.

[TinyGiant]

regardless of what i believe all religions can't be true if they contradict one another. one has to be right.

[Bob Dog]

Actually no one or any religion must be correct; they are appear to be cultural constructs which explain the experience of a greater mind/conciousness, which there is a fairly universal agreement seems to exist, but no one of them is necessarily, or inherently correct.

[HTM Yaris]

When everybody learns to replace God or Budha or Allah or whatever with LOVE , the world will be a better place . When is everybody going to realize that Heaven/Hell is right here , right now . Life is what YOU make of it . Life is making decisions on the circumstances that have manifested before you .
We all go through good times and adversities . It is learning to deal with both that makes people strong or weak .

I believe people will eventually discard all religions . All religions are flawed . Personally I think that God , Allah , Budha , Odin , Zeus , and any other "supreme beings" should get together and duke it out . The last one remaining is the one that we should worship . Instead of letting people think that they are doing their God's bidding by killing each other .That is pathetic and weak . But we all know that won't happen . Religion only exist where there is fear/hatred . Love/knowledge will make all religions extinct .

Every generation gets smarter . There is only one permanent thing in this universe ....Changes .

[gokartride]

Every generation gets smarter.I'm not so sure about that. :smile:

[Kaotic Lazagna]

When everybody learns to replace God or Budha or Allah or whatever with LOVE , the world will be a better place . When is everybody going to realize that Heaven/Hell is right here , right now . Life is what YOU make of it . Life is making decisions on the circumstances that have manifested before you .
We all go through good times and adversities . It is learning to deal with both that makes people strong or weak .

I believe people will eventually discard all religions . All religions are flawed . Personally I think that God , Allah , Budha , Odin , Zeus , and any other "supreme beings" should get together and duke it out . The last one remaining is the one that we should worship . Instead of letting people think that they are doing their God's bidding by killing each other .That is pathetic and weak . But we all know that won't happen . Religion only exist where there is fear/hatred . Love/knowledge will make all religions extinct .

Every generation gets smarter . There is only one permanent thing in this universe ....Changes .

:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

[TLyttle]

Apparently, all those deities are the same when looked at objectively.

I long ago figured that we live Heaven and Hell right here, right now: for me, Heaven was being able to have a handicapped person smile and say thanks for a device I built to make their life easier, Hell was coming home to find my wife gone, blood on the floor, and cops all over the place...

Every generation gets smarter is a generalisation, and it has too much to do with education. As the education system slowly drifts away into secularism, free thinking becomes more acceptable. The bad side of that is that not everyone thinks about those whose circumstances are worse than ours. Education (IMHO) cannot be enhanced by enforced religious exposure!