Ever tried removing the front swaybar?

[Loren]

Before I tell you how well it worked... raise your hand if you think autocrossing without a front swaybar sounds goofy. :wink:

[Sabretooth]

hmm, prolly felt like you were driving on really really underinflated tires?

[kngrsll]

i would think it would suck? but i dunno.

[1NZYaris1]

:iono:





:burnrubber:

[Loren]

Well, with an otherwise stock suspension, you'd both probably be exactly correct.

However, I don't have a stock suspension. I have a 23mm rear swaybar (thanks, Garm), and I have rear spring rates that are nearly double the front. (4kg/mm front, 7kg/mm rear)

As it turns out, still have considerably more roll resistance than stock, even with the front bar removed. In fact in normal street driving, I hardly noticed the difference when I removed it.

Today, I got the opportunity to autocross the car without the front bar for the first time and I really liked it. I've been stiffening the rear of the car to tame the understeer and the inside wheelspin when accelerating out of a turn. I generally like the car to be right on the verge of oversteer, such that if I lift throttle in a turn, the back end will come around. Not because I want the back end to come around (I really don't use that technique much), but because that balance allows the greatest throttle application while turning. Even with the stiffer rear springs and the large rear bar, I still found that I had to crank the rear shocks to near full stiff to achieve that goal, and even then I still got more inside wheelspin than I wanted.

With the front bar removed (okay, I really haven't actually removed it, I just removed an end link for this experiment... the dead weight will come out when I get a chance, though), I didn't experience any inside wheelspin today at all. I'm not saying it was like adding a limited slip, I still couldn't go full throttle everywhere... but that inside tire stayed planted. Stiffening the rear shocks to about half-stiff made it even better, and that was all it took to get the rear end to step out. No need to go full stiff on the rear shocks.

Why does it work? It's quite simply the way swaybars work. When you're hard in a turn, the outside front suspension is compressed. That wheel is way up in the wheelwell. What does the front swaybar do? It is a connection to the other front wheel. It pulls UP on that wheel... the one that likes to spin wildly when you want to accelerate out of a turn. So, removing it, allows that inside wheel to stay down on the pavement where you need it!

Side effect of my latest round of rear suspension stiffening and front suspension softening has resulted in a lot more REAR inside tire lift than before... but, aside from generating a lot of comments from bystanders, that's a GOOD thing. Weight that ISN'T on the rear IS on the front, and a FWD car's problem is with getting the FRONT to grip, not the rear.

Now, this isn't for everyone. But, if you've got a coilover suspension (or at least adjustable shocks) and a big rear bar, consider it another tool in your arsenal for improved autocross performance. Don't be afraid to think outside of the box... you just might find something that works!

[1NZYaris1]

:clap::clap: :clap:
Makes a lot of sense :thumbup:

[SailDesign]

Before I tell you how well it worked... raise your hand if you think autocrossing without a front swaybar sounds goofy. :wink:

Without even reading the rest of the thread, I know it works, if you're the right person. A fellow called Richard Shine has a tuning shop up in New England, and he has been removing the front bars from VWs for years. Some love it, some hate it, but either way it works. More power available to the driven wheel.

[Loren]

Hey, I've heard of Shine racing! And I know for sure I didn't invent the notion of removing the front bar from a FWD car. Much older and wiser people than I have been doing it for decades!

PK, like every other part of your suspension, the front swaybar (or the lack thereof) is a part of a system. If you take a stock Yaris and JUST remove the front swaybar, it's gonna suck. Would probably put down power coming out of a turn, but would suck in all of the other ways that you mentioned.

But, like I said, the rest of my suspension is NOT stock. I've done other things that counter the negative effects of removing a front swaybar. The roll stiffness that I have in the rear more than takes care of any "wobble" at high speeds (or any other speeds). I can adjust the sharpness of the steering with the front shock stiffness. With the shocks near full soft (where I've kept them for street driving), the steering response is a little more sluggish than it was, though probably no more than stock, and certainly not objectionable.

There was a tight slalom (5 cones at 50') on today's course and with just a little bit of front shock stiffness (about 1/4 stiff) I didn't have to put any thought into driving it at all.

Part of today's course was also 1.5x around a 200' skidpad, sweepers are NOT a problem.

This is the easiest thing in the world to experiment with. If you think you MIGHT like it, or you're just curious... remove an end link. All of your questions will be answered.

[Loren]

p.s what are you using as suspension mods if i may ask?
You could ask... or you could just read the 6th post in this thread. :tongue:

[Loren]

The spring rates are actually more relevant than the make/model, IMO. If you're the kind of person who's going to order a coilover kit without knowing the spring rates that it comes with... you probably shouldn't even be reading this.

That said, I have a K-Sport Kontrol Pro coilover kit. Completely unmodified except for the rear springs. Pretty basic stuff, but it gets the job done. Alignment is presently at about -2.5 front and -1.5 rear for camber, zero toe in front and stock toe in the rear. Ride height isn't very low at all... maybe 1.5" lower than stock.

[cali yaris]

pretty cool, and like the power steering experiment, very easy to try out and put back.

Actually removing the sway bar is a lot more involved, I hadn't thought of simply disabling it. :clap: easy-to-undo experiments!

[kngrsll]

cool write up... what autox did you go to? i had planned on going to the Roebling Road Buccaneer event but i totally forgot about until Sunday. :(

[Loren]

I was at a St Pete area event with my local club: http://wedrivefast.com/

There are about 5 autocross clubs in this area that I can think of.

[kngrsll]

i'm jealous!

So i think may try this out at the next event. although my set up is quite different, so i am not sure how it will go. I have some spring rubbers (98 lbs!) that i can try out as well.

Thanks for the tip!

[scape]

funny how this is a working idea, and yet they sell front sway bars ;d
have you thought about running lower profile tires in the rear only? just a thought i've been having lately

[Loren]

They sell front swaybars because people will buy them. (and you won't make any money by telling people to remove their front swaybar)

Nope, never considered running lower profile tires in the rear vs the front. The thought never crossed my mind. Even if there were some benefit to doing so (I sure can't think of one), I like having the same size on all four corners so that I can rotate the tires when I need to.

[scape]

good points

[Loren]

BTW, just to prove that I used to be young and dumb too... the first performance part I bought for my Saturn after I started autocrossing in 1996 was a front swaybar. Why? Same reason everybody else thinks they want one for their Yaris, to reduce body roll... and because it was available!

I spent the next 4 years modifying AROUND that mistake because I was too stubborn to remove that part that I'd paid good money for. I ended up with a good handling car, but it was far more difficult than it should have been. If I was smart, I'd have fitted the smaller front bar from an SC1 onto my SC2 instead of fitting a stiffer bar. (the S-series suspension design uses the front swaybar in an unconventional way, you can't drive the car without one)

[scape]

live and learn I guess :D

[Loren]

Aspect ratio is screwy, but here's some video:
http://blip.tv/file/2351613

[808_Yaris]

:w00t: video!

[SailDesign]

Aspect ratio is screwy, but here's some video:
http://blip.tv/file/2351613

:thumbsup:

[scape]

dude, you are a 3-wheeling monster! haha

[HTM Yaris]

I've always wanted to try removing the front swaybar . Maybe next Autox. Nice vid :headbang:

[eTiMaGo]

:w00t: video!

:biggrin::biggrin:
Between the squished video making the car look like one of those comic photoshops, and the drastic 3-wheel action, that video had me laughing hard :biggrin: But yes, the front wheels sure look well planted!

[tomato]

:eek: Never seen a Yaris on 3 wheels before! Love the video!

[advocate]

Looks great Loren! Going to have to get a rear sway bar and then start experimenting. The three-wheel action looks pretty scary but when you think about it the rear wheels on our car don't do anything except prevent us from having to drag our rear behind us.

[schleppy]

As always, thank you for posting your findings/insights Loren!

[basslover911]

Hey Loren I have a few questions...

1- How much dead weight would you be removing by taking out the Front sway?
2- Is handling VERY much affected during everyday driving?
3- How about taking it off on stiffer "lowering springs" (i.e. stock shocks, with lowering springs)

[Loren]

1. No idea, I haven't had the motivation to actually remove mine, just removed an end link. Judging by the size of it... maybe 12-15 pounds tops.
2. IF you have a really big rear bar, you probably won't notice not having the front one. I can't say for sure, though because my springs are so stiff that I definitely don't notice.
3. Try it. A front swaybar end link can be removed in like 5 minutes. This renders the swaybar completely ineffective. Won't hurt a thing. Completely reversible in another 5 minutes.

[Betrivent]

That video made me lol. Also, cornering hard scares me even without lifting my rear wheel off the ground. I think the fastest I dare turn a right at is 30-35km/h

[thepoche]

I removed my coilovers and installed the stock suspension for the winter and I broke one link in the process.

Did you have any issues with the bar hitting other parts? The disconnected link is on the left and when I turn right (weight is on the left side) I can hear the bar banging on something.

Anyways, let's hope the dealers has end links in stock, otherwise I'll have to sail this boat to work for a while!

[why?]

Wow, that video is nuts! How is the suspension during normal every day driving? Or do you have another car for that?

[Loren]

I work from home, so I don't drive all that much. But, the Yaris is my daily driver when I need to go anywhere. Only probably with the current setup is that the rear springs are REALLY stiff and creaky. I might experiment with putting the softer rear springs back on just to get some ride quality back. Pretty low on the priority list right now, though.

[thebarber]

great vid, loren!

[why?]

So much that it is really noticeable? Ouch. I used to own a few Saabs and how you described it,
"I generally like the car to be right on the verge of oversteer, such that if I lift throttle in a turn, the back end will come around."

Is pretty much exactly how they used to handle. I'd love to get that handling with the Yaris. It just makes driving fun.

I don't know much of anything about suspension setup, but from what I've read of your writings, stiffer rear is much better for handling. I'm just starting to think what I need to do for that. One simple question though, do the fronts need to be that stiff for normal driving, or for just racing?

[ddongbap]

They say, with stiff enough spring rates, technically kinda sorta don't need any sort of sway bar.

[Loren]

That's true, Ddongbap, I experimented with "no bars" on my Miata. It can be done, and I liked it except for the spring rates being on the verge of "harsh". But, as was mentioned very early in this thread, it's a love it or hate it thing. Some people prefer a softer-sprung setup with stiff swaybars. And there are merits to that setup for street driving.

"why?", (dumbest forum handle ever, btw), yes the harshness in my setup is very noticeable. Big bumps are awful, and bumps in turns (when the outside rear wheel is in the air) make all kinds of racket due to the spring having no tension on it at all. All could be addressed with some fine-tuning, maybe progressive springs, maybe some rubber spring perch seats, etc. But, as it is, my setup is a little annoying on the street. The handling is outstanding, though!

Best thing you can do is read more, get a better understanding of how things work, and experiment carefully.

[why?]

"why?", (dumbest forum handle ever, btw

:bellyroll: It does get the point across though. And when I ask the question, which is often, people understand.

So something tells me the reason that even most aftermarket kits have stiffer front springs then rear is the same reason auto manufacturers build in all that yucky understeer.

I do have lots to learn, and lots of setups to study.

[Tamago]

Before I tell you how well it worked... raise your hand if you think autocrossing without a front swaybar sounds goofy. :wink:

it sounds goofy, unless you've upgraded your front spring rates beyond the stock Ksport availability.

[Tamago]

Without even reading the rest of the thread, I know it works, if you're the right person. A fellow called Richard Shine has a tuning shop up in New England, and he has been removing the front bars from VWs for years. Some love it, some hate it, but either way it works. More power available to the driven wheel.

Shine is responsible for a lot of flipped MKIV's..

selling super-soft spring rates and telling kids to remove their front bar (and run R comps) = quite a few nasty accidents.

[Loren]

So something tells me the reason that even most aftermarket kits have stiffer front springs then rear is the same reason auto manufacturers build in all that yucky understeer.
That (built-in understeer for safety) is part of it, but ride quality is also a major factor. And, on the Yaris in particular, it's difficult to design a stiff rear spring setup that fits the stock spring perches, is as low as most people want it, works properly, and stays put without making clunky noises. I think that's the biggest reason you'll see most Yaris kits use a softer rear spring.

[ddongbap]

I've heard of stock height cars with Rcomps flip on turns.

[Loren]

I've heard of stock height cars with Rcomps flip on turns.
It's been known to happen.

All it takes is a softly sprung top-heavy car and an overly aggressive driver. Slam the car into a turn (or get goofy in a slalom) and the car will almost instantly rock over onto the bump stop. With street tires, hitting the bump stop that hard is usually enough of a jolt to make the tire slide. With race tires, it won't be. Yank the car hard enough and the outside tires will stick, allowing the momentum of the weight of the car to toss the car onto its roof.

[MUSKOKA800]

Nice video Loren,
It akes me back to the bleachers at Mosport in the 80's when the showroom stock Honda series ran before many big league series (F1, Cart, etc). The fast guys would have the inside rear tire 12-18" in the air rounding the high-speed corners. Quite amusing to those of us not familiar with FWD racing.