Good For New Buyers , A Rip Off For Owners

[Bob Dog]

New Yaris before Cash for Clunkers $13,500
New Yaris after Cash for Clunkers $9500 +1 POS
Used Yaris before Cash for Clunkers $9500
Used Yaris after Cash for Clunkers $6000-$7500 ?
and I was dumb enough to think the big screw might be over when the Repulicans left the white house FTS

[BailOut]

While I'm all for getting gas guzzlers off the road I know that is a secondary benefit here, while the primary goal is nothing but a further bailout for the U.S. auto industry, who I never wanted to see bailed out in the first place.

As for the politics of it, meh. Every Presidency in our history has made some stinky decisions. I see no reason why that should just up and stop all of a sudden.

[Bob Dog]

Exactly: Optimism is as usual rewarded by a good swift kick in the butt....

[GeneW]

Exactly: Optimism is as usual rewarded by a good swift kick in the butt....

I dunno... you get more things done being optimistic than pessimistic.

That being said, I still have a gigantic ghetto cruiser which the EPA says isn't a "clunker" because back in 1985 it got better than fifteen miles to the gallon.

Gene

[GeneW]

I was dumb enough to think the big screw might be over when the Repulicans left the white house FTS

"Cash for Clunkers" is an ice cream cone and a peck on the cheek compared to the full blown luvin' you're gonna get from the Crony Capitalism of Cap 'n Rape (backed by GE and other Corporate giants) and "Health Care" (backed by the AMA).

Gene

[tomato]

You guys ought to move that thread to the off topic discussion, I think.

Health care: do you really like the idea that millions of Americans everywhere can't afford health insurance right now? Some can, but insurances will turn them down based on pre-existing conditions. What are they supposed to do? Here in California, a simple doctor's visit (consult, 15 minutes at MOST) is $184. That's not some fancy visit in some fancy place, believe me.

Is it fair that people who have worked all their lives and saved every penny should go bankrupt when someone gets, let's say cancer? IDK, something sure needs to be done. I don't trust the government anymore than the next guy, but a little bit of regulation to make sure prices don't skyrocket might be a good idea. Look at the price of prescription drugs for instance, I mean that is completely out of hand. Many of these drugs (which Seniors require) are long out of R&D, and shouldn't be priced that high. The tax payer is footing the bill :iono: Maybe I should just shut up because the health care situation just puts me in a bad mood. Anyway, think about it, even if you voted Republican and hate the very thought of any government involvment. Just think about it, OK? Health care as it is now in the US is no care at all for the majority of people. It is a disgrace, if you ask me.

[tuckevalastin]

Cash for Clunkers is most certainly benefiting Asian carmakers more than the US automakers. The regulations of the program pretty much ensure that. Not only are people using this program to buy Asian cars now but those Asian cars will last 5-10 years at least meaning those people won't even need to consider buying American for 5-10 years. IMO it would have been much more beneficial to make this program actually benefit the US auto industry, at least then it would benefit something our government has already invested heavily in.

The program appears to be about 80% show and 20% go. The one upside is that it has managed to bring 250,000 buyers into dealerships this week. The list of downsides is very long.

[tomato]

what exactly has D done for me?

Too soon to tell.

[2+2]

what exactly has D done for me?

At the end of the New Deal (1968) a single wage earner could support a family. At the end of the Reagan Revolution it takes 2 wage earners and sometimes that's not enough.

The new administration has a tremendous pile of shiit to clean up. I think we should give em a little time - it took 40 years to get us this screwed, I think it's going to take a few years to get us less screwed.

[Bob Dog]

6 months after the inception of a major illness, 60% of families no longer have healthcare insurance. Modern health care insurance is a grand scale scam at least on the level of the mortgage and the banking scandals. It is structured by actuaries to never pay off. The only ones who can afford keep the stuff in event of serious illness are the wealthy, so it ends up everyone else is subsidising the healthcare of the rich with their payments before their insurance was terminated.

[tuckevalastin]

No sense in moving it to off topic... political threads only make it a few hours before getting so heated that they are locked anyway :biggrin:

[Bob Dog]

It looks to me like all the base prices for vehicles have been knocked up so what it really amounts to is that the incentive is going to the dealers and manufacturers and not to the people buying the vehicles.

[tomato]

No sense in moving it to off topic... political threads only make it a few hours before getting so heated that they are locked anyway :biggrin:

You're right. That's why I deleted my rant about the R admin, but I'll sneak this one in before we get locked: I agree wholeheartedly with 2+2.

Just give the guy a little time, will ya? It rattles my cage when I hear people blame the guy already because he's implemented such or such program. I wasn't happy about the bailout either (although if you recall the first bailout was b/f November)., eh, I hear ya, believe me (I pay my bills and try to live within my means, so, why should I be penalized because other dudes bought houses they couldn't afford in the first place with 0 down). But last year, we were on the brink of a major financial disaster and now, things are somewhat stabilized. So let give it a little time and see what happens, I guess that's all I'm trying to say.

Peace.

[tomato]

It looks to me like all the base prices for vehicles have been knocked up so what it really amounts to is that the incentive is going to the dealers and manufacturers and not to the people buying the vehicles.

Well, that's a good point, too.

[tuckevalastin]

I've often wondered how many people trade in cars that they could have gotten $4500 for as a trade in anyway. In those cases I bet the dealer wishes they could just have the car traded in so they can resell it and make a little extra profit

[Shroomster]

Cash for Clunkers is most certainly benefiting Asian carmakers more than the US automakers. The regulations of the program pretty much ensure that. Not only are people using this program to buy Asian cars now but those Asian cars will last 5-10 years at least meaning those people won't even need to consider buying American for 5-10 years. IMO it would have been much more beneficial to make this program actually benefit the US auto industry, at least then it would benefit something our government has already invested heavily in.

The program appears to be about 80% show and 20% go. The one upside is that it has managed to bring 250,000 buyers into dealerships this week. The list of downsides is very long.


they may be based out of japan, korea, wherever, but check out the number of plants (thats manufacturing plants) and offices they now own and operate here in the states, mexico and canada.

besides china holds most of our U.S debt. <<<off topic but ya know.

[tuckevalastin]

they may be based out of japan, korea, wherever, but check out the number of plants (thats manufacturing plants) and offices they now own and operate here in the states, mexico and canada.

besides china holds most of our U.S debt. <<<off topic but ya know.


I know the number of plants and offices in N.America (both Import and Domestic) and that doesn't change a thing in my opinion.

[tuckevalastin]

You're right. That's why I deleted my rant about the R admin, but I'll sneak this one in before we get locked: I agree wholeheartedly with 2+2.


I'll delete my D response too in the interest of the discussion of the Cash for Clunkers program and not all around politics.

[supmet]

Ya, hopefully it will go bankrupt before it hits the used car business too bad. A couple months from now people should still pay 9-10k for a good used yaris. If you're in the market to sell in the next week or month, you might be in trouble.

[eric81]

Cash for Clunkers is most certainly benefiting Asian carmakers more than the US automakers. The regulations of the program pretty much ensure that. Not only are people using this program to buy Asian cars now but those Asian cars will last 5-10 years at least meaning those people won't even need to consider buying American for 5-10 years. IMO it would have been much more beneficial to make this program actually benefit the US auto industry, at least then it would benefit something our government has already invested heavily in.

The program appears to be about 80% show and 20% go. The one upside is that it has managed to bring 250,000 buyers into dealerships this week. The list of downsides is very long.

Did you know that there are more Toyota's made in the US by US citizens then there are Toyota's coming in from Japan? And that Toyota has 4 of the top 10 americanized vehicles? Including the number one spot with the Camry? Yeah, the Camry beat out every other car in the US, including Fords, GM's, Chevy's, Pontiac's, Chrystler's, Jeeps, and Dodge's. How is this not helping the US? Maybe they should take a page out of Toyota's book and start building efficient, reliable cars. That's just my opinion though. Oh, wait, it's not my opinion. It's facts. Do your research.

[kustom play]

I wouldnt buy american, they all suck and they got themselves into the position their in. Im pissed that they bailed them out in the first place. Should have let them fail the first time

[eric81]

Okay, FYI. Cash for clunkers is NOT helping dealerships like you think it is. The government put up rules so we can't adjust the prices to help us out any. However, it is causing us to have a lot of business, so we are happy about that. More cars sold means more money made.
Now, as for the vehicles that qualify, and all the work we have to do to find out if it does qualify, filling out paperwork, and then having to actually lose money off the top, the government is still making their money, because they tax you BEFORE the $3,500 or $4,500 rebate, but we only get paid on the after rebate price, so they are just helping fuel themselves.
And I do agree that they are taking some nicer and well kept vehicles and parts off the road. Also, I believe they should have made the MPG a little higher, because 18 is REALLY hard to do. I have had SEVERAL customers that get 16 average or less, but the website says 19 or 20, so they miss out and have to keep driving their clunker. It is helping out some people, but not everyone it should.

[enobmort42]

my old 96 escort wasn't eligible for the clunkers thing, so i sold it on craigslist. had it been, i would have given it to my brother to get him started with a good car..

[Bob Dog]

This program also rewards people who bought gas guzzlers years ago and punishes those bought fuel efficient cars by giving money to those who bought the guzzlers and not giving the incentive to people who have been driving green for years.

[aclark246]

Also, I believe they should have made the MPG a little higher, because 18 is REALLY hard to do. I have had SEVERAL customers that get 16 average or less, but the website says 19 or 20, so they miss out and have to keep driving their clunker.

The website says they get 19...they get 16...
The website says I get 32...I get 44...

Maybe it is the driver and not the car...




qualifier:
(...in some of those cases. I do realize that environment plays a big role in possible FE and that also they could have some serious car issues that inhibit any higher FE, but for most people I have seen who get poor FE in their cars-even older cars- it has been driving style that has kept them out of reach of the EPA numbers. Sucks for the people who it's out of their control, but for those who legitimately bought gas guzzlers in the first place and drive inefficiently anyway, I really don't want my tax dollars giving them a rebate if they can't make the 18 that their car can most probably make. If they do qualify however, I am more than happy to help them into a better car.)

[tuckevalastin]

Did you know that there are more Toyota's made in the US by US citizens then there are Toyota's coming in from Japan? And that Toyota has 4 of the top 10 americanized vehicles? Including the number one spot with the Camry? Yeah, the Camry beat out every other car in the US, including Fords, GM's, Chevy's, Pontiac's, Chrystler's, Jeeps, and Dodge's. How is this not helping the US? Maybe they should take a page out of Toyota's book and start building efficient, reliable cars. That's just my opinion though. Oh, wait, it's not my opinion. It's facts. Do your research.

Just because Toyota builds cars in the US and for the US buyers doesn't make them a US automaker. Did you do your research? It shouldn't be hard to find out that Toyota is NOT a US automaker!!!

[RedRide]

Well, as the saying goes, ...."You can't please all the people all of the time."

Without getting political and/or placing blame (there is plenty to go around), the county is in a bit of an economic mess and doing nothing is not an option at this point.

I'm 62 years and have yet to see a government run progran that did not have problems at the onset.

[TinyGiant]

i heard the govt shut down cash for clunkers a couple days ago.. the money that was budgeted for it is now gone... from a big response to the program

[tuckevalastin]

the government then gave the program $2billion more in funding so it's back up and running.

[TinyGiant]

splendid. 2 billion more to something i cant take advantage of because i did the right think last fall and got rid of my clunker. neato!

[RedRide]

The CFC progam is not designed/purposed to reward or punish anybody.

The main focus it to boltser the all important US auto industry and all the busunesses that depend on it and getting old gas guzzlers off the road.

The '"I got mine and if you don't have yours,...screw you" attitude is largely what got us into this mess to begin with.

[gokartride]

One can argue theoretical pros and cons all day, but in the end, I think it is a good program and a good time for it.

[Bob Dog]

The new money for the "Cash for Clunkers" program is being looted directly for the alternative energy programs, another give away to industry at the taxpayer expense. I bet the Senators and Congresspeople get a really nice stroke from the Auto Industry Lobbyists after this one

[GeneW]

i heard the govt shut down cash for clunkers a couple days ago.. the money that was budgeted for it is now gone... from a big response to the program

No. The ability of the Government to manage the problem was overwhelmed. The program has only spent about $100 million, about ten percent of the total.

Gene

[GeneW]

You guys ought to move that thread to the off topic discussion, I think.

Health care: do you really like the idea that millions of Americans everywhere can't afford health insurance right now? Some can, but insurances will turn them down based on pre-existing conditions. What are they supposed to do? Here in California, a simple doctor's visit (consult, 15 minutes at MOST) is $184. That's not some fancy visit in some fancy place, believe me.

Is it fair that people who have worked all their lives and saved every penny should go bankrupt when someone gets, let's say cancer? IDK, something sure needs to be done. I don't trust the government anymore than the next guy, but a little bit of regulation to make sure prices don't skyrocket might be a good idea. Look at the price of prescription drugs for instance, I mean that is completely out of hand. Many of these drugs (which Seniors require) are long out of R&D, and shouldn't be priced that high. The tax payer is footing the bill :iono: Maybe I should just shut up because the health care situation just puts me in a bad mood. Anyway, think about it, even if you voted Republican and hate the very thought of any government involvment. Just think about it, OK? Health care as it is now in the US is no care at all for the majority of people. It is a disgrace, if you ask me.

Meet you here....

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=362195#post362195


Gene

[GeneW]

The new money for the "Cash for Clunkers" program is being looted directly for the alternative energy programs, another give away to industry at the taxpayer expense. I bet the Senators and Congresspeople get a really nice stroke from the Auto Industry Lobbyists after this one

Do you think that "alternative energy" money isn't being "targeted at big business"?

Go look up the US Climate Action Partnership - it's a "who's who" of big business. They're pushing "Cap and Trade" through Congress, possibly even putting some $$$ into the pockets of "undecided" politicians.

I heard that the bread for "Cash for Clunkers ver 2.0" came from some TARP or "recovery" slush fund set up by COngress.

How come nobody is discussing how this "cash for clunkers" is hurting working poor folks? You know, the folks who buy clunkers to get to work and back? Doesn't anyone think of them, or are they invisible because they don't have lobbyists in Congress?

Gene

[gokartride]

I wouldn't be surprised to see this program (or a program like it) pop up now and again. I've seen states trying to get at something like it before, generally for commercial equipment/trucks.

[eric81]

The $2 billion that they added has to be voted on yet, so we are waiting. They actually DID run out of money, though only 1/10th of it is actually spent. There are enough requests in to spend the entire $1 billion, they just haven't rebated the money yet, so everyone is waiting to get the money. Toyota was one of the ONLY dealerships here in Pueblo to continue to do the Program on Saturday, because we got special permission, but now NO ONE is allowed to do it anymore, at least until the rest of the money is voted on and put in.

And I know Toyota is not a US company, but they are built here, parts and all, so it is helping the US just as much (if not more) than buying an "american made" car. A lot of the american brands are at least partially built in Mexico or Canada. My cousin works for GM, and he tells me all about the stuff they do. He works in Detroit Michigan. Yes, I did do my research. I am a Toyota salesman, and it's my job to know these things. I work In Pueblo, Colorado. Come on in and ask for Eric, and I will be happy to help.

[tuckevalastin]

Except that the US government has invested $billions in the Big 3 which won't be repayed if they don't sell enough vehicles. So selling American cars benefits the US more than selling Toyotas not matter where Toyotas are made.

[advocate]

Doesn't anyone think of them, or are they invisible because they don't have lobbyists in Congress?

Gene

Everyone who doesn't have a lobbyist is automatically invisible. Welcome to Congress, where money matters as much as the vote count.

[Bob Dog]

It does aggravate me that to see perfectly funtional vehicles that could have served so many of purposes destroyed like so much garbage: the commuter vehicles of the poor, the vehicles that are used by recyclers to haul scrap, the mobile homes of the homeless, the winter beaters people who live in regions where salt and winter would otherwise destroy newer cars, trucks used to haul firewood and other destructive agricultural comodities, the work trucks of handymen and andscapers.The list goes on and on. Let them drive new vehicles sounds like let them eat cake to me. As a frugal person who believes in getting all the useful life out of manufactured goods, it disgusts me. I sure people in the third world are looking at this an saying wtf are they thinking.

[Zaphod]

It does aggravate me that to see perfectly funtional vehicles that could have served so many of purposes destroyed like so much garbage: the commuter vehicles of the poor, the vehicles that are used by recyclers to haul scrap, the mobile homes of the homeless, the winter beaters people who live in regions where salt and winter would otherwise destroy newer cars, trucks used to haul firewood and other destructive agricultural comodities, the work trucks of handymen and andscapers.The list goes on and on. Let them drive new vehicles sounds like let them eat cake to me. As a frugal person who believes in getting all the useful life out of manufactured goods, it disgusts me. I sure people in the third world are looking at this an saying wtf are they thinking.
I agree completely, people are saying this is a good thing since they're putting more efficient cars on the road and that's true, but they're not taking into consideration the amount of energy and resources used to build the replacement vehicles.

It's just an excuse to spend more money. The real solution is to allow gas prices to rise over time, which in turn increases demand for more efficient vehicles.

[RedRide]

Fact is, there is no "real" single solution that will solve the "problem".

The CFC program is just one facet of many things that need to be implimened.

The biggest problem IMO is we need to break the back of the (false) mentalty that gas guzzelers are better... a staus symble, etc.
If it takes a program like CFC to get the ball rolling, so be it as no one has come up with a better solution so far after all these years.

Let's not loose sight of the fact that the gass guzzling vehicle problem has become a national security/ major economic issue.

[Yaris Hilton]

It does aggravate me that to see perfectly funtional vehicles that could have served so many of purposes destroyed like so much garbage: the commuter vehicles of the poor, the vehicles that are used by recyclers to haul scrap, the mobile homes of the homeless, the winter beaters people who live in regions where salt and winter would otherwise destroy newer cars, trucks used to haul firewood and other destructive agricultural commodities, the work trucks of handymen and landscapers.The list goes on and on. Let them drive new vehicles sounds like let them eat cake to me. As a frugal person who believes in getting all the useful life out of manufactured goods, it disgusts me. I sure people in the third world are looking at this an saying wtf are they thinking.

I agree completely. "Waste not, want not." I'm glad I don't have to watch 'em drain the oil out of the engine, fill it with sodium silicate solution, and run it till it seizes. A particularly barbaric way to kill a car.

I've got to get a little maintenance work done on my "clunker" before taking the family to the beach with it. It also serves as my "truck" with a trailer behind it, and my knockaround vehicle for going places like the rifle range where I don't want to take the shiniest, newest one. No way in blue blazing hell is the government going to destroy it for a $4500 discount on an overpriced new vehicle. But its retail value as a used car is $725, according to one of those online sites. Fine. I'm not planning to sell it anyway. As long as I can reasonably keep it fixed up, I'll run it till the wheels fall off and won't go back on.

[tomato]

This program also rewards people who bought gas guzzlers years ago and punishes those bought fuel efficient cars by giving money to those who bought the guzzlers and not giving the incentive to people who have been driving green for years.

Not that I'm against the program but that's a real good point!!

[Shroomster]

As long as I can reasonably keep it fixed up, I'll run it till the wheels fall off and won't go back on.


psst. duct tape and super glue work wonders for when that time comes. just can't go much faster than about 17 m.p.h

[tuckevalastin]

It does aggravate me that to see perfectly funtional vehicles that could have served so many of purposes destroyed like so much garbage: the commuter vehicles of the poor, the vehicles that are used by recyclers to haul scrap, the mobile homes of the homeless, the winter beaters people who live in regions where salt and winter would otherwise destroy newer cars, trucks used to haul firewood and other destructive agricultural comodities, the work trucks of handymen and andscapers.The list goes on and on. Let them drive new vehicles sounds like let them eat cake to me. As a frugal person who believes in getting all the useful life out of manufactured goods, it disgusts me. I sure people in the third world are looking at this an saying wtf are they thinking.


I agree with that completely. What happens now to those who can only afford to buy "clunkers"? And those who make a living off of selling them? Sure every "clunker" in the country won't be destroyed but if all $3billion is used, over 600,000 of them will be destroyed. That's a major hit to those who use,buy, and sell "clunkers".

[tomato]

Meet you here....

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=362195#post362195


Gene

I saw the comment, thanks for responding to me. I don't know if I can answer, honestly because I don't have much time to spend online these days and once you get started with these kind of debates, before you know it, the best part of the day is gone. I can see that you and I have a very different view point on some stuff and that's cool, I respect that, but if I start debating with you, I won't get anything else done. I'm sorry, can't do it right now.

Also, my apologies for the thread jack.

[2009Toyotoad]

New Yaris before Cash for Clunkers $13,500
New Yaris after Cash for Clunkers $9500 +1 POS
Used Yaris before Cash for Clunkers $9500
Used Yaris after Cash for Clunkers $6000-$7500 ?
and I was dumb enough to think the big screw might be over when the Repulicans left the white house FTS

Bob dog You are near sited and missing a few facts.

Used Yaris after the the cash for clunkers program sells 1 million cars $9,500

Used Yaris when gas prices creep back up to $4 / gallon $10,500

Short term projects yield short term results, on the car side. But cleaner air is worth waiting 6 months to sell a used Yaris

[gokartride]

Hey, at least someone from among the general public benefitting. How often does that happen?!?

[Altitude]

Except that the US government has invested $billions in the Big 3 which won't be repayed if they don't sell enough vehicles. So selling American cars benefits the US more than selling Toyotas not matter where Toyotas are made.

Sure, if the Gov. limited the program to US cars only then the US industry would benefit more, but don't overlook the benefits to be had for all of those Americans that work for Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Suzuki, Kia etc. etc.

This program puts money in the hands of anyone who works for the auto industry here in America *regardless* of the auto makers country of origin. So now those dealers, service dept workers, truckers, distributors, parts dealers etc.etc. can go spend that cash to further stimulate the economy. - as opposed to getting laid off because no one is buying.

[Yaris Hilton]

Cleaner air is not a part of this program. Possibly emissions may be reduced as a side effect. But the criteria for eligible vehicles are based solely on fuel consumption as estimated by the EPA, not emissions. And the requirements for improved mileage to get the payment are rather modest. Why don't they just be honest about it and "give" a bonus to us (out of our tax dollars) to buy a new car? A bailout for the carmakers and dealers is all this is about.

[tuckevalastin]

Sure, if the Gov. limited the program to US cars only then the US industry would benefit more, but don't overlook the benefits to be had for all of those Americans that work for Toyota, Nissan, Honda, Suzuki, Kia etc. etc.

This program puts money in the hands of anyone who works for the auto industry here in America *regardless* of the auto makers country of origin. So now those dealers, service dept workers, truckers, distributors, parts dealers etc.etc. can go spend that cash to further stimulate the economy. - as opposed to getting laid off because no one is buying.



Don't overlook the benefits to all US citizens of having GM and Chrysler sell more cars.

[talnlnky]

I think it was a good idea, a lot better than Bush's bail-outs for poorly managed american auto companies which americans are split on if they even want those companies around any more.

get low mileage cars off the road = less gas consumed = less pollution = slows down global warming, And our dependence on OPEC is also lessened. I'm all up for sending a billion dollars to japan if it means we will save many times that amount in oil costs every year now.

[eric81]

I think the funniest part of all this, is that most of the american cars don't qualify for the good money ($4,500) which your new car must get 10mpg better than the old car, because they don't have super efficient cars like Toyota and Honda and those companies. Sure, they have one or two, but the SUV's all use MORE gas than there current clunker. If they had really started making fuel efficient vehicles like all the foreign companies 5 to 10 years ago, they would be selling more cars in the cash for clunkers thing. I believe the only vehicles we can't get to qualify are the Sequoia and the 4Runner. Every other vehicle has been sold to someone, just at my dealership alone. American's need jobs, I am not arguing with that. But my cousin got a job with GM, and they paid him 75% of his regular wages to be "Voluntarily laid off" for 6 weeks. If you are not working in Japan, the don't pay you. OR, they get smart and just reduce hours so you CAN continue to work regularly, just for less time, so you don't go hungry or unpaid. I think the US needs to look at how some other countries are doing business, (ALL other countries, to be honest) and start implementing some of their rules and ethics. I was in the US Army for 9 years, and when I was deployed to Iraq, I made about $50,000 a year, less before my extension. Civilians who never left the bases there were clearing $100,000 for doing next to nothing. They play on computers, eat 4 meals a day, get large SUV's to drive on the bases, and get issued body armor and side arms, and they never leave the base. They also get larger rooms, and if my A/C goes out, they still take priority because they are civilians. Trust me, we need to rethink how we do things here.

[bikeshox]

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/uptospeed/2009/08/clunkers.html

Some good reading about the program. Looks like 47% of the new cars purchased are built by the big three. Of the top 5 cars sold only the Prius is built entirely in Japan.

[Altitude]

This program also rewards people who bought gas guzzlers years ago and punishes those bought fuel efficient cars by giving money to those who bought the guzzlers and not giving the incentive to people who have been driving green for years.

If it's really a big deal, there is something you can do... Find someone with a clunker who can't afford the payments on a new car. Trade them YOUR car then take the clunker to the dealership and get your new wheels. There, not only will you no longer feel cheated, you'll have helped out someone else who couldn't benefit either. Win, Win!!

[tuckevalastin]

You have to prove you've owned it and had it insured for a full year prior to trading it in.

[2+2]

At least we've pulled our collective heads up out of the sand and we're trying something. For the last 30 odd years it's like we're ostriches and if we bury our heads long enough problems will just go away. I'm sure this isn't the absolute best way to spend taxpayer's dollars but I think it's at least an 8 on a scale of 1 - 10.

If killing functional automobiles helps to get us off foreign oil then I say shoot em dead.

[Zaphod]

Taxing gas is a far better way to increase demand for more efficient vehicles long term.

[Yaris Hilton]

Yep. This isn't going to get us off of foreign oil.

[aclark246]

Just a quick question, a bit off topic, but would this work?:

Have a varying annual car tax, depending on FE and State. Lower EPA FE= higher tax; Higher EPA FE= lower tax. States/Regions where the car is insured that require more lower FE vehicles will have a lower tax than the same vehicle in a region that does not demand a lower FE vehicle.

For instance: I live in Boston. For Average Joe in Boston there is little need for an SUV, so the SUV would have a 9% annual tax, (just throwing random numbers, doesn't have to be those, just so you get the picture.) A Yaris would have a 2% yearly tax, (2% on what? I don't know, but we could figure something out.)

I live in Northern Maine. For Average Joe in Maine, there is indeed a need for 4 wheel drive vehicles and trucks, just based on the environment as opposed to Boston. A yaris does well in snow and holds its own (as our Canadian and mountain members will attest to,) but it might be more beneficial to have a big truck. Likewise, the economy of the area might require larger vehicles. The yaris would still have the 2% tax, but the SUV would only have a 4% tax.

This is just something that popped into my head. Is it plausible? What are the pitfalls? I know I'm missing them, otherwise this would be implemented already.

The only worry I would have is that:
1. It would give the EPA much more political and economic power than it already has
2. For those of us who do much better than EPA, there is no extra savings besides gas.
3. For those of us who do much worse than EPA, there is jealousy from those who do better, (on the tax break side...)
4. Would the logistics be possible? i.e. proving the low FE vehicles are neccesary for an individual/family so they don't have to pay the higher tax, not having as high a tax on persons whose low FE vehicle is not their primary vehicle, etc.

Would this type of program promote high efficiency vehicles more than CFC in which CFC is a one-time savings, whereas this idea could be an annual savings over the life of the vehicle? Maybe even a -% for high FE vehicles? Tax the unnecessary (key word) guzzlers and rebate the efficient ones?

(once again, it is just an idea, I haven't done any research or made a business plan or anything, haha.)

[2+2]

Yep. This isn't going to get us off of foreign oil.

er I didn't say it would get us off foreign oil, I said helps to get us off foreign oil. Big difference. With such a small percentage of cars involved I would expect the effect to be small, very small. Increasing the fed tax at the pump is the ultimate solution imo, so I very much agree with Zaphod. I'd love to see them increase it a small amount every year from now on. It wouldn't shock the economy and in a few years there would be fewer gas guzzlers on the road.

Baby steps?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsUaQUW-Az0

At least they're finally doing something. Maybe when the economy improves they'll bump up the tax at the pump. Yeah right! LOL

[daf62757]

"Cash for Clunkers" is an ice cream cone and a peck on the cheek compared to the full blown luvin' you're gonna get from the Crony Capitalism of Cap 'n Rape (backed by GE and other Corporate giants) and "Health Care" (backed by the AMA).

Gene

Very true! I find it so ironic that Obama is pushing electric cars....and then is pushing cap and trade which will make it very difficult to use coal electric plants, which will drive up the price of electricity and make electric cars almost as expensive as gas cars.

Too many people have been fooled by Obama the snake oil salesman. His policies are just plain socialist and bad for America!

[2+2]

What country do you think the president was born in?

[KCALB SIRAY]

Soooo, Joe Blow gets what he thinks is a great credit for a 1985 Escort, then they hand him the keys to a brand spanking new Focus. Sounds like a good deal to you and me, right? Joe drives home, singing, "I'm on, top of the world and lookin', down at creation..." and you get the picture, he's as the the other song suggests, "Happy as a Lark".

So Joe gets home to his apartment, get's ready to go to work. It's Saturday afternoon, and he has to be at the Mall for his shift at the Gap. Joe makes about $10.50 an hour as a supervisor. So Joe goes to work shows off his new ride and loves every minute of it.

A few weeks go by and rent is due. Not sure, but depending on area, a one bedroom around here is about $900 up to $1200 or so, give or take a few. Joe likes his lifestyle, so a shabby apartment is out of the question, and his lifestyle is just as nice, late nights out with the gap crew, parties etc. Joe pays his rent on time and time goes by.

Month end rolls around and Joe pays his car note. Car note is around $250 based on Joe's % they gave him at the dealer.

Ok, to save time in this story, we all know where this is heading. Joe is living well beyond his means just by buying into this idea of getting a new car based on his old car is worth more than it actually is. Joe had a car that ran well because his Dad taught him how to take care of it at an early age. Soon Joe begins to fall behind on payments because Joe's Dad might have taught him how to take care of his care and have his oil changed, but they failed to teach him the value of a dollar. So Joe blows his dough on partying all the time. Now Joe is about to loose his car, might loose his job soon due to retail sales going up and down, up and down. All in all, your looking at about another 2 billion going down the drain when all is said and done due to people not being able to pay for these cars. Yeah they get there car back, but won't be able to sell them. Has anyone taken this in to account when this idea was thought up? Answer is, YES!! We've seen it already, they take it from our children, and their children and so on. Higher taxes? Yep, there coming!!


"LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!"
http://www.yieldsoftware.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/megaphone.jpg

[Yaris Hilton]

He's not going to get anything for his Escort under the Cash for Clunkers. Too much gas mileage. But the rest is on target.

[Altitude]

Too many people have been fooled by Obama the snake oil salesman. His policies are just plain socialist and bad for America!

Polly want a cracker?

[Altitude]

Higher taxes? Yep, there coming!!
"LET THE GAMES BEGIN!!"


It is all a big game. You see, Republicans cut taxes and deregulate, things go to hell so the Dems come in and raise taxes back to previous levels and impose more regulations to fix the problems. Then people complain that taxes are too high so they vote in Republicans who then lower taxes and deregulate and things go to hell and the Dems are elected to fix it and have to raise taxes... ad nauseum.

[KCALB SIRAY]

He's not going to get anything for his Escort under the Cash for Clunkers. Too much gas mileage. But the rest is on target.

lol, you are right :bonk:

[tuckevalastin]

It is all a big game. You see, Republicans cut taxes and deregulate, things go to hell so the Dems come in and raise taxes back to previous levels and impose more regulations to fix the problems. Then people complain that taxes are too high so they vote in Republicans who then lower taxes and deregulate and things go to hell and the Dems are elected to fix it and have to raise taxes... ad nauseum.

I'm not even go to touch that statement but you should be ready to have that statement ripped apart by someone since it is begging to be.

[aclark246]

It is all a big game. You see, Republicans cut taxes and deregulate, things go to hell so the Dems come in and raise taxes back to previous levels and impose more regulations to fix the problems. Then people complain that taxes are too high so they vote in Republicans who then lower taxes and deregulate and things go to hell and the Dems are elected to fix it and have to raise taxes... ad nauseum.

Sounds like checks and balances to me!:thumbup:


...
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:iono:

[Bob Dog]

I agree with altitude on this on. Its just a pendulum swinging back and forth

[eric81]

I write checks, and watch my balances go farther and farther into the negative. lol.
Seriously, this thing NEEDS to have some of those rules imposed on it, like you have to make LESS than so much a year. Also, when they apply for credit, it's not like it USED to be. They do a credit check and an income check, along with a "living expenses" check (how much rent or mortgage is) and then they figure if they SHOULD put you into a vehicle. The banks are MUCH more stubborn now-a-days. I know, I had less income, worse credit, and more debt and got into a more expensive car than what several of my customers have been denied for. The banks are not lending because they are afraid to get burned again, like they did three, and even just one year ago. That's one of the hardest parts about my job, is seeing people get turned away for not making more than a certain amount. Or not having "enough" credit, because they are smart and didn't get themselves buried in it, so they have no real credit score. There could have been so many things done better, but hey, I'm not the one in charge, the guy I didn't vote for is. Thank you everyone who DID vote for him. I owe you one.

[aclark246]

There could have been so many things done better, but hey, I'm not the one in charge, the guy I didn't vote for is. Thank you everyone who DID vote for him. I owe you one.

That my friend is the absolutely WRONG attitude. This is freakin' america! Why has everyone forgotten that?! What was the US founded on? The People are in charge! The People have given up their power to the government and I don't think any person has the right to complain unless they have personally taken an initiative. "But Aclark246, I voted, and my guys lost, and I don't have a lobbyist, and I don't have the time or money to try and get my voice heard." Well by george (maybe king...) then I hate to say it but your voice doesn't matter. Do you think the colonies had lots of money or time when they decided to stand up for the principle that their voice mattered? No... no they weren't wealthy, so that is no excuse, and they sure as hell had the same time constraints as you do, if not more seeing as the majority of the colonialists were agrarian.

All I'm saying is, if you are ok with only being heard a few times a year at the local level and every 2 years federally, then do what you have been doing. If you don't like what is happening, or if you just have a good idea for changes or revisions to some policies, say something AND do something. The backbone of this nation is its citizens, shouldn't the backbone of the government be the citizens too? Do something constructive as opposed to destructive. Bickering is just that, but constructive debate is how the early nation flourished and it seems we have forgotten that.


:endtirade:

On a side note, I saw a piece on the news about non profit organizations losing car donations because of the program. Should the policy be changed so that instead of killing the clunkers, they are donated to these groups? No one could sell them back in the program because of the one year ownership thing. Charitable donations thanks to the US government. I think that would at least serve a better purpose. Any thoughts?

(see, constructive debate, once we reach a consensus we will get a YarisWorld lobbyist and have our own interest group. Heck, we already are our own interest group. All we need is to do something...)

:thumbup:

[Yaris Hilton]

I would like to see something productive like that done with the "clunkers," but as it's been couched in terms of "getting those gas guzzlers off the road," it's unlikely they'll go for it.

[aclark246]

I thought that the organizations that collect the donated cars sold off parts and just used the money from them? My mother donated an old buick a few years back after it all but died and they said they would just salvage the parts because every little bit helps.

[Bob Dog]

I saw an article on the NBC evening news last night: many organizations that depend on the donation of used vehicles are struggling due to this progam

[Altitude]

Removed by poster.

[tuckevalastin]

Why don't you rip it apart? (If you choose to do so we should probably take it to the political thread)

Check this out before you do though:

There are 2 reasons:

1) as you mentioned already such discussions shouldn't take place here as they'll just end up getting the thread locked.

2) Arguing politics results in absolutely nothing but getting people ticked off at each other. While I completely disagree with you I'll accomplish nothing by going in depth to tell you why I disagree with you. Ultimately, you actually believe what you said and I find it to be a complete joke (and I'm sure you'd feel similarly about my counter argument). I'm more than happy just agreeing to disagree and discussing car related topics :biggrin:

As for the graph, I've been taught statistics quite well and you can make a graph using factual numbers that appears to prove any point no matter how obsurd. So I'm sure the numbers in that graph are true but look a little deeper into the other variables involved in government and that graph becomes irrelevant.

[2+2]

Deleted my comment.

[Bob Dog]

whats all that got to do with cash for clunkers? I believe that stuff belongs in the open political discussion thread in the off topic section.

[eric81]

okay... I absolutely disagree that this has gotten anywhere near off subject. It is just what it started as. And I think it is actually HEALTHY to disagree with others, as long as you are not overly angry with someone else's response or opinion. So lets all be calm, and just agree to disagree.

[ChinoCharles]

Oh, political banter. Subscribed, with popcorn.