Fog lamps as back up low beams.

[ellenbetty]

Is it possible to safely use fog lamps as back up for low beams? I hate one eye monsters. Nether of my Toyota Yarises have fog lamps. If fog lamps can be used as back up for low beams, which fog lamps would be the best choice? OE? LEDS?

Total cost to install in a Yaris? (x 2 for me).

[RUFFSTUFF]

Is it possible to safely use fog lamps as back up for low beams? I hate one eye monsters. Nether of my Toyota Yarises have fog lamps. If fog lamps can be used as back up for low beams, which fog lamps would be the best choice? OE? LEDS?

Total cost to install in a Yaris? (x 2 for me).


I would think that if you mounted them in the standard fog lamp position they would be too low to have any effective use as regular headlights. I had a Mustang that I mounted 100w fog lamps on a switch to either side of the pony in the grill to use as headlights since I had headlight covers. They seemed to work but they were real bright, and I only got pulled over once... for forgetting to turn my regular headlights on...! Paid maybe $50 for them.

[Sir A.Y. Atoyot]

Is it possible to safely use fog lamps as back up for low beams? I hate one eye monsters. Nether of my Toyota Yarises have fog lamps. If fog lamps can be used as back up for low beams, which fog lamps would be the best choice? OE? LEDS?

Total cost to install in a Yaris? (x 2 for me).

If you have a headlight out, replace the fuse or bulb, is my advice. The purpose of fog lights is to help you see under foggy conditions, not to "back up" other lighting.

[kac]

Police officers I know will pull someone over for using foglights as headlights in town at night, and will possibly give a ticket for it.

[ellenbetty]

I would think that if you mounted them in the standard fog lamp position they would be too low to have any effective use as regular headlights. Paid maybe $50 for them.

Switch under the hood for each fog lamp. I never considered that idea. I planned to put the switch for the fog lamp in the dash. switch in the dash is easy to use in a heavy wind blown rain. I am not much for laying on my back installing fog lamps in a parking lot. Good way to get run over. Plus a violation of rental contract to work on car in driveway or parking lot.

Plus I suffer from neck, back and shoulder injuries from being hit by a van while in the USAF. So labor cost is also part of my question.

If I lived in Maryland, I would just call Pep Boys and make a appointment to get the fog lamps installed. Maybe I should have added a question about where to buy the fog lamp and then have the fog lamps installed. Dealer would be a choice for OE fog lamps.

[1NZYaris1]

The Fog lights Garm sells , are real easy to instal , 98% plug and play
just fit the lights and splice in 2 wires your done . Or you could spend
another $170.US approx and buy the OEM Light stalk for the steering colum
and be totally plug and play .
the whole instal takes about 2 hr's .
i would do it for you but your a bit far away .
maybe another member on here might be willing to help you out .:thumbsup:

[RUFFSTUFF]

Switch under the hood for each fog lamp.


The switch was next to my shifter. The relay was in my dashboard.

[RHDVIPbB]

please don't do it. I hate the truck guys who do it. And as said before, police will pull you over for it. I only use it when leaving my apartment complex at night to not shine my lights in my neighbors houses. After it get to the main road, I turn on my headlights.

[ellenbetty]

.
i would do it for you but your a bit far away

What, you haven't installed a big enough gas tank to drive that far? :laugh:

[ellenbetty]

Leds won't illuminate enough but will make u visible to others.and as other members have said fogs are too low to give you the driver enough illumination.

You talking about those LED circle after market head light assembly I seen on the Internet? Or LED lights to be placed where the fog lamps are placed?

[1NZYaris1]

What, you haven't installed a big enough gas tank to drive that far? :laugh:

The Yaris still has not mastered the act of water walking :frown:
or i would be over there already :laugh:

[ellenbetty]

please don't do it. I hate the truck guys who do it. .

I am not talking about a bunch of lights on top of a fake roll bar. My brother had fog lamps installed behind the grill of his Ford Ranger. I forgot about that. Higher but harder to install. But the fog lamp would have to put out about the same lumes and cover about the same area as low beams to do what I want. Fog lamps with the same output as high beam head lights would not be what I want. The built in mounts for OE equipment is not the only place I could mount the fog lights.

[Shroomster]

I am not talking about a bunch of lights on top of a fake roll bar. My brother had fog lamps installed behind the grill of his Ford Ranger. I forgot about that. Higher but harder to install. But the fog lamp would have to put out about the same lumes and cover about the same area as low beams to do what I want. Fog lamps with the same output as high beam head lights would not be what I want. The built in mounts for OE equipment is not the only place I could mount the fog lights.

I think they're referring to the idiots who have certain models of cars who drive around with just fog lights and 'parking lights' on; those fog lights are usually mounted on the front bumper or o.e.m into the headlight area (like GM escalade/avalanche)....they're too bright and just plain out suck for those at the sedan/hatch eyeline.

[RHDVIPbB]

Exactly. Not the roof ones. It isn't that hard to replace a $12 bulb in our housings. Just reach in and twist.

[ellenbetty]

Exactly. Not the roof ones. It isn't that hard to replace a $12 bulb in our housings. Just reach in and twist.

It would be cheaper to buy some bulbs and put them in a glove box. But I do not like the idea of opening the hood to change light bulbs in the middle of a storm. Nothing like pouring wind driven rain to make changing bulbs a shocking experience. :eek: Plus Ohio is known for some bitter cold winter weather. Some times a push button backup is the best solution.

The behind the grill fog lamps would be better height wise for visibility. But I think the behind the grill fog lamps would be harder to install. I think the OE fog lamp kit would be easier to install.

Since I have this round of modifications to pay off my credit cards, I am not in a rush to charge the cost of buying and installing fog lamps.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

I don't think fog lights will work as a backup... My old grand am had fog lights and the switch for the head lights went out, so i could only have on amber parking lights and my fog lights. The lights were too low and barely illuminated 10 feet in front of the car (dimly)... maybe if they were VERY bright (do they make projector fog lights?) it might work, but in my grand am, limping home was a miserable experience...

[ellenbetty]

I don't think fog lights will work as a backup... My old grand am had fog lights and the switch for the head lights went out, so i could only have on amber parking lights and my fog lights. The lights were too low and barely illuminated 10 feet in front of the car (dimly)... maybe if they were VERY bright (do they make projector fog lights?) it might work, but in my grand am, limping home was a miserable experience...

Thanks for the info. They do make different types of after market kit fog lights. All I have seen are meant as replacement units for already installed fog lights. A few kits are meant to be mounted on the bumper or behind the grill giving greater area coverage.

As someone on this forum likes to day, just do it. So I ordered the fog lamp kits from MicroImage. Support the forum type of act. Even if OE fog lamps (or after market copies of Toyota parts), are not bright enough to do the job, and I need to add a second set of fog, LED or head light lamps behind the grill to do the job properly, I still need the wiring harness, instructions, and switch for the dash for the fog lamps. I just hope that the dash switch and wiring are thick enough to handle a second set of lights.

[1NZYaris1]

Run it throught the factory wiring for the first set , :thumbup:
when and if you put a secound set in worry about the new wiring then :thumbsup:
personally i think you will be fine with just the OEM set up .

[ellenbetty]

If I under stand the details the OE like fog lamp kit is plug in simple. Only problem is having to remove the bumper to install the fog lamps. I also figure the dash will have to be pulled to install the on/off switch. Not permitted under the landlady's rules. Not possible with a bad neck. When the kits arrive I will have to pay a garage to install the fog lamp kits.

[1NZYaris1]

If I under stand the details the OE like fog lamp kit is plug in simple. Only problem is having to remove the bumper to install the fog lamps. I also figure the dash will have to be pulled to install the on/off switch. Not permitted under the landlady's rules. Not possible with a bad neck. When the kits arrive I will have to pay a garage to install the fog lamp kits.

No you don't need to remove the bumper ,but you can if you want too .
As you can just peel the plastic inner guard back to install the lights
and run the loom under the radiator and up into the fuse box under bonnet .
But no need for my instructions as Garm's kit comes with full easy
to follow instructions .:thumbsup:
Oh and only the cover from the steering colum is removed , not the dash .

[ellenbetty]

I do not under stand why you would need to peel off the cover of the steering column. I remember reading about mounting the switch on the steering wheel. The steering wheel is a strange place to mount a fog lamp switch. Strange place to install the wiring for the on-off fog lamp switch. Does the kit use wiring in the column meant for another purpose? The logical place to install the on-off switch is in the blank spot in the dash. It is a shame that the spot where Toyota puts the start button is round. I guess I will have to dig out my Toyota Yaris manual and see if I can learn where Toyota normally mounts the on-off switch for the fog lamps.

Plus I am considering mounting the fog lamps behind the grill on the radiator with plastic self locking loops to avoid peeling back the bumper inner guard. Sounds nasty peeling back the bumper inner guard. But installing the fog lamps on the radiator may not be as easy as it sounds. The horn is in the way. So the fog lamps would have to be mounted lower than I want. So there may be little difference between mounting the fog lamps behind the grill and mounting the fog lamps where Toyota made space for them.

[ellenbetty]

One of the 2 Micro Image (Garm's) fog lamp kits I ordered has arrived. It looks slightly different than the photo displayed on Micro Image. The kit looks in order. Plus the extra things added by Micro Image to improve the kit are shown in my photo. My Mom is planning a trip to WV. Which would give me a empty parking space besides my Mom's modular home. While Garm recommends having someone who knows what they are doing install the foglamp kit, I may try to install parts of the kit myself. One post said that one Toyota dealer asked $400+ to install one foglamp kit. I would like to avoid adding $800 labor to my credit card to install 2 foglamp kits.

[1NZYaris1]

Before you install , pm or email garm .
i have just updated the install instructions . to make it a little
easier .
:thumbsup:

[ellenbetty]

Garm told me about the updated instructions. Garm said he would send me a email with the updated instructions. Maybe Garm will get around to sending me the email after mailing the second kit.

[cali yaris]

Maybe Garm already did.

[ellenbetty]

I check my email several times a day. But not in the wee hours of the morning. (03:23 AM :eek: ). Some of us need our sleep.

[ellenbetty]

I decided to try to use the instructions to install the Vinjet fog lamp kit sold by Micro Image. There is a gap between the fog lamp and the plastic bumper insert. I question that a gap should be there. I may buy some glue or epoxy to fill in the gap. The improved instructions still are confusing. I had to guess how to use the wires that came with Rom's OEM Install kit. The instructions did not cover how to use the two red wire cross connectors. But I was able to figure out how to use those two red wire cross connectors to attach the wires to the switch to the yellow wire in the steering wheel. I went out and bought a box of one use push in panel plugs. The pop out plugs that are standard to hold the front bumper in place are too small for the holes on both sides of the bumper/wheel well overlap. So the larger one use push in plugs fit the holes better. The Vinjet kit has a lot of extra wire. I would guess that the wires are used in a number of kits.

Because of back problems I was unable to complete the install of the fog lamp kit today. But I did spent the morning having stripes put on my first Yaris.

One challange I will have to deal with is how install the on/off switch. The suggested place to install the switch will have to be cut out. The other choice is to buy a smaller switch that will fit in the push out slots in front of the AT shifter. The problem with that idea is that I do not know if the smaller switch will accept the electrical plug from the wiring kit.

[1NZYaris1]

if you have problems please supply photo's so we can help you out .
as for switch place meant , it can fit in any of the OEM gaps , just remove the Plastic plugs first.:thumbsup:

[ellenbetty]

if you have problems please supply photo's so we can help you out .
as for switch place meant , it can fit in any of the OEM gaps , just remove the Plastic plugs first.:thumbsup:

I just removed the plastic plug. Even with outer cover removed, switch that came with kit is too large.

[ellenbetty]

Since I could not find a slightly smaller switch to fit into the slot, I decided to cut out some plastic around the sides of the slot. I removed the outer frame from the switch. I removed some of the plastic on three sides of the slot using a Dremel. But a metal file would do as well.

[cali yaris]

that looks good, I did the same thing.

[ellenbetty]

Well I did something wrong. The fog lamps will not turn on.

[1NZYaris1]

Turn your head lights onto park .
turn on foglight switch .
when you do that listen for a clicking sound coming from the relay .
and let us know .

[ellenbetty]

I heard nothing other than the nose the on/off switch makes. Since I also removed the DRL relay does that effect this kit?

[1NZYaris1]

Yes , it could .
put relay back in .
if still no fog lights check the earth from the switch
or one of the 2 wires that you connected to the Pin3 wire on the stalk
is not making contact.:thumbsup:

[kuyachris84]

keep us updated... i just ordered some clear fog lights from garm.

Hope it isn't hard to install

:biggrin:

[1NZYaris1]

keep us updated... i just ordered some clear fog lights from garm.

Hope it isn't hard to install

:biggrin:


If you do have problems , Pm , or ask , only to happy to help out. :thumbsup:

[ellenbetty]

I got the fog lamps to work. I had to follow directions, cut the yellow wire in the steering column, and use connectors to make a connection. :rolleyes: At least one of the fog lamps bulbs lit, (I did not feel like checking the other, too tired), and the dash light for fog lamps on lit up. But I do have a problem. The switch to the fog lamps remains lit even if the key is out of the switch to the ignition. Makes me nervous.

Does any one have a idea of how long will it take for that light in the switch to drain my battery so much that I will not be able to start my Yaris?

Since I do not wish to find out the hard way what impact that light in the switch has on my battery, I unplugged the switch.

[1NZYaris1]

I got the fog lamps to work. I had to follow directions, cut the yellow wire in the steering column, and use connectors to make a connection. :rolleyes: At least one of the fog lamps bulbs lit, (I did not feel like checking the other, too tired), and the dash light for fog lamps on lit up. But I do have a problem. The switch to the fog lamps remains lit even if the key is out of the switch to the ignition. Makes me nervous.

Does any one have a idea of how long will it take for that light in the switch to drain my battery so much that I will not be able to start my Yaris?

Since I do not wish to find out the hard way what impact that light in the switch has on my battery, I unplugged the switch.

i think the simple answer is to swap the 2 wires around The Red and Yellow wire on your switch .
does your switch stay lite up even if it is turned off and park lights off .

[ellenbetty]

A long time is too vage. My Mom has problems with her Subrau starting if the Subrau is not started at least one a week and driven at least for 1/2 hour.

Since I have 2 Yarises, not driving both for a week or one for 2 weeks is something that some times occures. Is 2 weeks too long a time between starts?

Maybe I should rephase my question. Does any one know which wire to the fog lamp switch needs to be cut to kill that light? Will I need to install a second switch if I cut the wire to the light in the fog lamp switch?

[1NZYaris1]

A long time is too vage. My Mom has problems with her Subrau starting if the Subrau is not started at least one a week and driven at least for 1/2 hour.

Since I have 2 Yarises, not driving both for a week or one for 2 weeks is something that some times occures. Is 2 weeks too long a time between starts?

Maybe I should rephase my question. Does any one know which wire to the fog lamp switch needs to be cut to kill that light? Will I need to install a second switch if I cut the wire to the light in the fog lamp switch?

As above swap the 2 wires around :thumbsup:

[ellenbetty]

i think the simple answer is to swap the 2 wires around The Red and Yellow wire on your switch .
does your switch stay lite up even if it is turned off and park lights off .

The switch stays lit even when the key is removed and the head lights and the running lights are off.

I guess what you English (Sorry you folks down under) call park lights us Americans call running lights. :laugh:

[ellenbetty]

I am not certain which red and yellow wires you are talking about. Are you taking about switching two wires on the wiring harness?

Or are you talking about switching the wires connected to the cut yellow wire in the steering column?

[1NZYaris1]

I am not certain which red and yellow wires you are talking about. Are you taking about switching two wires on the wiring harness?

Or are you talking about switching the wires connected to the cut yellow wire in the steering column?

Yes switch the too wires that you put to the cut one .:thumbsup:

[ellenbetty]

I do not understand why flipping those wires would turn off the light in the switch. All that does is reverse the flow of electrons through the switch. There is a circuit board behind the switch. Are you saying that that circuit board has a relay that is confused because of the direction the DC electric current is flowing?

I will give flipping the wires a try.

[1NZYaris1]

Yes it will turn the LED off , if the switch is off .:thumbsup:

[RUFFSTUFF]

Even so, you don't want that switch wired straight to your battery.

[ellenbetty]

Who said any thing about wiring that switch directly to the battery? I know what happens when you attach a 20 gage wire to the negative post of the battery and ground it. The wire vaporizes. I know that the cable coming from negative post of the battery is as thick as my small finger and is split into a number of wires to power the electrical system for the entire car with fuses to regulate how much power goes to each wire.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Who said any thing about wiring that switch directly to the battery? I know what happens when you attach a 20 gage wire to the negative post of the battery and ground it. The wire vaporizes. I know that the cable coming from negative post of the battery is as thick as my small finger and is split into a number of wires to power the electrical system for the entire car with fuses to regulate how much power goes to each wire.


Well... let's see... If it lights up when the car is off then the power to light it comes from... (dramatic drum roll) the battery. The battery is the only source of electrical power in your car when it is not running, but I'm sure you know that. I didn't say anything about shorting out the battery with a wire. Chill out. BTW, fuses (and certainly auto fuses) don't regulate anything. They are just a cheap form of overcurrent protection.

I do like your reference to electron flow vs. hole flow though... :headbang:

[ellenbetty]

O, is that what you meant. Of course there are hot wires even with the ignition off. Something has to power the clock, and power the emergency flashers, when the ignition switch is off.

I guess I did over state the function of auto fuses. Thickness of wires, a number of wires, a number of relays, a number of switches, a number of resistors, combined with a number of fuses attached to the wires, does divide the electrical flow and provide enough resistance to reduce power level coming from the negative terminal to a safe level for each wire.

I figure if all the power available in the battery have just 2 wires going to a single switch and 2 relays to hold back the current to those 2 fog lamp bulbs and 2 dash lights, those 2 wires would have to be a lot thicker than 18 gage to avoid being melted when I turn on the fog lamps.

[ellenbetty]

I tried flipping the red yellow wires connected to the switch. The only change is that the light in the switch now is brighter when the fog lamps are off and the ignition switch is on.

[ellenbetty]

I redid the first set. Even with the ignition off the fog lamps in the first set will not turn off.

Any ideas?

[1NZYaris1]

Put it back the way it was ,the first time .

[ellenbetty]

You may have forgotten I own 2 Yarises. The first Yaris has the problem of fog lamps always on. The second Yaris has the problem with on off switch always lit.

[1NZYaris1]

You may have forgotten I own 2 Yarises. The first Yaris has the problem of fog lamps always on. The second Yaris has the problem with on off switch always lit.
Okay the one that always has the fogs on , swap the 2 switching wires
around , should be problem solved , but it might end up with the switch LED permantly on , and the reason for that is
something to do with the way the Daytime running lights are wired , and as i don't have them
i can not advise a solution , you might want to talk with CTScott ,
Try PMing him :thumbsup:

[CTScott]

The switches with some of the kits (or at least the one I received with mine) really aren't designed to be used with the OEM wiring method. To make the light turn off when the car is off requires modification of the circuit board within the switch.

[ellenbetty]

Well my 2 Yarises are different. One has power windows and power mirrors (the Yaris with the fog lamps always on problem). The other Yaris without power windows has the light in the switch always on problem.

I tried swapping the yellow and red wires on the Yaris with power windows. Zero effect on the Yaris with always on fog lamps.

[1NZYaris1]

Are they factory or after market options .:iono:

Can you put up photos of how you have wired them .

your problem of foglights not turnning off , is a first for me .
It could be the switch not earthing

[ellenbetty]

Yes I can take photos of install.

Which relay? The relay under the dash or the relay under the hood? The relay under the dash is easy to replace. I can just swap relays between the two cars.

[CTScott]

The easiest test is to completely bypass the switch. If you have the under hood wiring complete and the relay in the OEM socket, then all that you have to do is to jump pin 3 (yellow) to pin 4 (orange) on the headlight switch connector.

With the headlights on low beams, when you jump those pins fogs should light and dashboard indicator should come on.

If that works, then everything is fine except for the switch.

[ellenbetty]

What has me puzzled is there are 2 yellow wires coming out of the socket that plugs into the back of the switch and only one yellow wire coming out at the end of the plastic wrap (plus one black and one red wire). I know not know what was done at the factory with one of those 2 yellow wires.

A quick fix is to cut the black ground wire from the switch, install a second switch controlling the ground wire.

[ellenbetty]

I tried your test running a wire between 3 and 4. Fog lights did not come on. So I went ahead and switched the NARVA relays. The fog light switch lit up and the fog lights remained off. The fog lamps lit when I turned the key to aux, turned on the running lights and turned on the fog lamps. The brand new NARVA relay is bad.

[1NZYaris1]

I tried your test running a wire between 3 and 4. Fog lights did not come on. So I went ahead and switched the NARVA relays. The fog light switch lit up and the fog lights remained off. The fog lamps lit when I turned the key to aux, turned on the running lights and turned on the fog lamps. The brand new NARVA relay is bad.

now thats a first :thumbup:, congrates on finding the problem .

[ellenbetty]

Or is the relay just getting a bad connection? So I plugged the "bad" relay into my other Yaris, the Yaris w/out factory power windows and w/out factory power mirrors. Now both Yarises fog lamp are working. Working in a strange way. The fog lamps will only come on once. To get the fog lamps to come on again after turning the fog lamps off, another electrical switch must be changed to on or off. Of course I have not tried with the motor started. I hope that will not change things again.

[1NZYaris1]

Once you turn the foglights off at the switch wait 3 seconds
you will here the relay click .Then push the switch again and they will come on . this is due to the load resistor in the relay . there to protect it .
from on/off switching too fast.

[JCS_IMPORT_25]

definatley nogo

[CTScott]

Once you turn the foglights off at the switch wait 3 seconds
you will here the relay click .Then push the switch again and they will come on . this is due to the load resistor in the relay . there to protect it .
from on/off switching too fast.

The resistor is just a snubber. It doesn't induce a delay. I helped someone else recently troubleshoot a fog light issue with a similar behavior and the end result was that the switch was causing the problem.

[ellenbetty]

It sounds like a design problem. Finding a replacement switch seems problemmatic. I have already cut the plastic in floor console to fit the switches. Replacing the switch may also require replacing the wiring harness going to the switch.

I do not know of any driving conditions I would want to turn on then on, then off and the on again. I will be interesting to try the suggestion of wait 3 seconds before turning the switch back on.

[thebarber]

definitely cheaper and easier to keep extra bulbs in your glovebox in case a light goes out. standard oem bulbs last for years....i wouldnt worry about them burning out too much. besides, how often do you drive at night?

[ellenbetty]

Actually I did buy 2 bulbs and put one bulb in the sun glasses storeage area in each car. I kept each bulb in it's packaging. I do not plan upon changing bulbs when pouring rain or when it is bitter cold. I worry what will happen if the electrical system gets soaked. When visiting one of Cleveland's high crime areas, it is not safe to bend over a car's hood long enough to change a bulb. Once I lock my door in a high crime area, I do not unlock the door and get out until I reach my next planned stop.

Ohio's law requires turning on headlights when windshield wipers are being used. So night time driving is not the only time when my headlights are on.

In the last month I have been out once after dark. But that will change with the shortening of days. Plus here in North East Ohio, we get several snow storms each month of Winter. Driving up to and back from Cleveland lake effect snow is also a problem.

Next thing to do is sealing gaps between the fog lamp casing and the plastic insert that snaps into the outer bumper. While sealing gaps is not part of the instructions, I figure such gaps will let lots of rain or melted snow in to the area behind the fog lamps. While the fog bulb socket is rapped with rubber seals, water will get in any minor crack. Plus freezing water could cause damage. So I sealed the edges with clear silicone caulk. Unsightly looking.

Next day I did put a second layer of clear caulk to angle the edges around the plastic insert. Plus there were a few gaps created by drying or poor placement of the clear caulk.

I included two photos. A photo of the gaps and a photo of the second layer of clear silicone caulk. The clear caulk looks milky. Next step is use a razer blade to trim off some of the silicone caulk. Final step is to paint the plastic insert and the clear silicone caulk Meteoric Metallic.

[supmet]

^^ were you caulking with a shovel??

[ellenbetty]

Some of the gaps are rather big. Big enough to hold a ink pen in place. Plus if you want to change a flat edge to a slanted edge, for aerodynamic reasons, then more caulk or body putty is needed.

Plus I was hit by a van while on a bicycle years ago. Try laying on your back with 50% to 75% of the tissue in your neck and back torn, laced with scar tissue. Throw in a few compressed vertebra and couple of bulging disks, while installing caulk. I can only hold my neck horizontally for a couple of minutes every other day. That's with taking Naproxen and using a 4 x 6 inch lidocaine patch on each shoulder. So pre-planning each action and speed is more important than looks.

[kuyachris84]

Looks like slimmer from ghost busters just hit your fog lights. xD

But yeah.. I do agree the fog lights from garm has a huge freaken gap. Enough so that water when its raining or snowing will get in. I just wrapped the fogs electrical wire in electrical tape up to the plugs. If it gets bad... I'll try to close the gaps with silicone.

:smoking:

[ellenbetty]

Today I went out and tried to start one of my Yarises. It had been 6 to 7 days since I last started each Yaris. The first Yaris I tried would not turn over. The second Yaris was completely dead. So I had to call AAA for a jump. While I have zero proof that the fog lamp kits caused the problem, for safety sake, I unplugged different parts of the fog lamps.

[CTScott]

Today I went out and tried to start one of my Yarises. It had been 6 to 7 days since I last started each Yaris. The first Yaris I tried would not turn over. The second Yaris was completely dead. So I had to call AAA for a jump. While I have zero proof that the fog lamp kits caused the problem, for safety sake, I unplugged different parts of the fog lamps.

Interesting. If your switches are the same as the one that came with mine, the lights are incandescent bulbs, not LEDs. If you have them wired where the light on the switch is always lit, it will draw more current than an LED, but still not a significant enough amount to kill the battery in a day or two (I measured the current draw of the switch bulbs to be about 50 mA).

[RUFFSTUFF]

I had the glove box light in my truck kill the battery in less than 3 days when I parked it with the box open one time. I'm pretty sure the that battery has significant more capacity than a Yaris battery. Lights are evil.

[ellenbetty]

There are other things that draw power from the battery all the time. A clock being the first thing that comes to mind. Plus a vehicle electrical system wastes some power even with every thing turned off. Electricity is always trying to find a way to complete a circuit. Some electrons will flow even when every switch is turned off. Plus with modern relays checking for things like door locked or door unlocked or built in timer expired to turn off over head light, modern vehicles consume more battery power than older vehicles all the time.

What gets me is that one of the switches to the fog lamps was unplug. Still the battery was dead in 7 days. I wonder if I should go out and start both of those Yarises every few days, and let the Yarises run for 1/2 hour, to make sure the batteries are charged.

[cali yaris]

I wonder if I should go out and start both of those Yarises every few days, and let the Yarises run for 1/2 hour, to make sure the batteries are charged.

I would do that with any car (but only for a few minutes), just for the car's general health and well-being. You can also get a cheap voltage tester so you can check the voltage any time you want to; I wish these cars came with more gauges.

[RUFFSTUFF]

If you don't drive the cars regularly you could always just get a trickle charger. A 1/2 hour at idle isn't going to do much for you.

[CTScott]

The battery shouldn't run down in 7 days. If it is, either the battery has an issue (in your case x2) or something is drawing a significant amount of current when the car is off.

[ellenbetty]

that is just plain weird...u sure you reconnected the batteries:iono: im serious here not trying to be funny or anything. did you check the main fuse on the battery terminal connector?

I have not checked the main fuse on the battery terminal connector. In the modular home park where I live, each lot has just one parking space per home. My Mom uses the parking space besides our modular home. Her Subrau has the same problem. The alarm system kills my Mom's battery in less than a week.

[ellenbetty]

If you don't drive the cars regularly you could always just get a trickle charger. A 1/2 hour at idle isn't going to do much for you.

I park in a over flow parking lot. I do not have access to a place to plug a trickle charger. According to my research 25 minutes at idle will charge a dead battery.

[ellenbetty]

The battery shouldn't run down in 7 days. If it is, either the battery has an issue (in your case x2) or something is drawing a significant amount of current when the car is off.

I had both batteries replaced last week. :frown:

[ellenbetty]

If you don't drive the cars regularly you could always just get a trickle charger. A 1/2 hour at idle isn't going to do much for you.

There is another option than a trickle charger. The same thing the tow truck driver used to start my Yaris. A portable rechargeable battery powered jump starter. I bought a Duralast HEAVY DUTY 450 PEAK AMP jump starter. 5 LED lights that are labeled to tell the status of the sealed lead/acid battery. Comes with a plug in the wall charger. Cheaply made in China. Comes with warning not to over charge it or it might over heat and explode. The instructions do not agree with the LED lights. The instructions say to recharge it every time it is used. It does not look large enough to do the job. But it works.

I have already used the jump starter once.

[cali yaris]

I have something like that for car shows. Someone always runs their battery down bumping tunes, it's nice to be the guy with the jump start box.

[rningonfumes]

The other solution is deep cycle marine-type batteries, they'll take licking and keep ticking. Those batteries aren't just meant for the heavy duty stereo guys.

[ellenbetty]

I not much for throwing away a new battery. What the Yaris really needs is a larger alternator. The owners manual says that the Yaris alternator is too small to generate enough power to heat the rear window defroster. So the rear window defroster draws additional power from the battery. The owner manual warns owners not run the rear window defroster more than 20 minutes. So the Yaris does not recharge the battery very fast. So a number of short trips could leave the battery without enough power to start the Yaris.

[supmet]

I not much for throwing away a new battery. What the Yaris really needs is a larger alternator. The owners manual says that the Yaris alternator is too small to generate enough power to heat the rear window defroster. So the rear window defroster draws additional power from the battery. The owner manual warns owners not run the rear window defroster more than 20 minutes. So the Yaris does not recharge the battery very fast. So a number of short trips could leave the battery without enough power to start the Yaris.

:iono:

I have been running a sub and an amp since the first day I had my car, and my car has never failed to start in 3 years and 74,000 miles. Original starter, alternator, and battery.

[JumpmanYaris]

:bonk::hitcomputer:

[ellenbetty]

I have been running a sub and an amp since the first day I had my car, and my car has never failed to start in 3 years and 74,000 miles. Original starter, alternator, and battery.

74,000 total miles divided by 3 yeaers = 24,666.66 miles per year. 24,666.66 miles divided by 365 days per year = 67.5 miles per day. 67.5 divided by 2 trips per day = 33.75 miles per trip every day. Your equation may very.

My Yarises are 1.6 years old. The Yaris I bought used has 14,000 miles. The Yaris I bought new has 12,000 miles. 12,000 divided by 1.6 years = 7500 miles per year. 365 days per year divided by 2 (Yaris driven every other day) = 182.5 days per year each Yaris is driven. 7500 miles divided by 182.5 = 41 mile driven every other day. 41 miles divided by 2 trips a day = 20.5 miles per trip every other day.

While I know that this is a crude way to figure out average miles per trip, it is the best equation I could come up with. Driving 20.5 miles per trip in my Yaris is questionable for recharging the battery back to 100% of capability.

Of course there may be a problem with the instructions on how to install the after market fog lap kit I bought from Micro Image that I am not aware of that is killing the battery.

I have too much on my credit card to be able to afford to put the Yaris in the shop for a complete electrical system check. Both Yarises passed the standard electrical check when the batteries were replaced. Next year I hope to be able to afford to put one of the Yarises in the shop to have someone experenced in installing after market fog lamps to check the work I did to see if I made a mistake installing the fog lamps and/or to see if there is a error in the install instructions.

[ellenbetty]

I have been running a sub and an amp since the first day I had my car, and my car has never failed to start in 3 years and 74,000 miles. Original starter, alternator, and battery.

You should have added in nice sunny Southern CA. How much freezing weather do you get in a year? North East Ohio gets below freezing most nights during the winter. Which type of weather is it harder to start a motor? Freezing temperatures or hot sunny days? Motor oil below freezing temperatures does not work nearly as good as motor oil at 100 degrees F. Which burns easier? Warm or cold gasoline? 100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

During start of winter auto mechanics replace a lot of old batteries that will not start the car.

[cali yaris]

36 or more sales of this kit so far, and no one else is experiencing dead batteries. I'm confident the error is not within the instructions.

100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

That is incorrect. Colder air/gas = Denser = more fuel per cc of air = more power.

Cars produce more horsepower on the dyno on colder days.

[CTScott]

ellenbetty, can you take some pictures of all of your wiring points?

I have been in comm with Ray, regarding the instructions and I believe that I have a fix for the switch indicator light always being on. I PM'd it to one of the people who recently installed a kit and mentioned that issue, but he hasn't gotten back to me as to whether he tried it or not.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Get a manual charger and recondition the battery.

[ellenbetty]

Get a manual charger and recondition the battery.

My Yarises are parked in the over flow parking lot at the pre-manafactured modular home park where I live. I do not have a place to plug in a manual charger. The loop around the park is only 2 vehicles wide. Unless you are a contractor making home repairs, parking in the street for more than 10 minutes is against park rules. That is why I bought the portable rechargable battery powered jump starter. My guess is that a battery powered jump starter can act as a charger if left on long enough. The idea of staying in the car for a few hours to see how long it takes the battery powered jump starter recharge the battery is the real problem. It would be easier and faster to start or jump start the car and run the motor for a 1/2 hour each day. The problem is the lack of space to put the battery powered jump starter so that the hood can be completely closed.

[RUFFSTUFF]

My Yarises are parked in the over flow parking lot at the pre-manafactured modular home park where I live. I do not have a place to plug in a manual charger. The loop around the park is only 2 vehicles wide. Unless you are a contractor making home repairs, parking in the street for more than 10 minutes is against park rules. That is why I bought the portable rechargable battery powered jump starter. My guess is that a battery powered jump starter can act as a charger if left on long enough. The idea of staying in the car for a few hours to see how long it takes the battery powered jump starter recharge the battery is the real problem. It would be easier and faster to start or jump start the car and run the motor for a 1/2 hour each day. The problem is the lack of space to put the battery powered jump starter so that the hood can be completely closed.


The jump starter won't charge your battery much.

[ellenbetty]

With winter coming, and the batteries ending up dead in less than a week, I will have to go out and start each Yaris every other day for at least a 1/2 hour to keep the battery charged. Other wise the dead batteries will freeze. Since it is unsafe to charge a frozen dead battery, I will have to make sure that the batteries do not go dead during this winter.

[RUFFSTUFF]

With winter coming, and the batteries ending up dead in less than a week, I will have to go out and start each Yaris every other day for at least a 1/2 hour to keep the battery charged. Other wise the dead batteries will freeze. Since it is unsafe to charge a frozen dead battery, I will have to make sure that the batteries do not go dead during this winter.


I'm telling ya... just letting the car idle won't do much for you if the batteries are already having issues. Alternator output (current) at idle can be as low as 10 amps and will increase with rpm. Just idling your car puts the output of your alternator just above "self-sustaining," there will probably not be enough overhead to get a decent charge on your battery. I believe your research to be incorrect. A 1/2 of driving may show some improvement... a 1/2 hour of idling probably not.


You can check this out:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html

[ellenbetty]

That is incorrect. Colder air/gas = Denser = more fuel per cc of air = more power.

Cars produce more horsepower on the dyno on colder days.

I think you are mistaking the cause of the additional power. Modern cars have sensors that detects the temperature of the gasoline air mix. The car's computer analyzes different sensors to decide the optimal amount of fuel to inject into the motor. More fuel is injected when the air fuel mix temperature is low to aid combustion to provide the additional energy needed to heat all of the fuel air mix for additional production of hp to keep the motor running.

Plus we are talking about the effects of winter on battery charge times. Just like gasoline air combustion has to be at a certain temperature to happen, the chemical reaction to store electrical power in a lead acid battery has a optical temperature range. If the battery temperature is 20 degrees, it takes more energy to charge the battery than if the battery temperature is 90 degrees. A fully discharged battery will freeze at 5 degrees below zero. A frozen battery cannot be safely charged. A frozen battery should be heated to 60 degrees before attempting to charge the battery.

[ellenbetty]

I'm telling ya... just letting the car idle won't do much for you if the batteries are already having issues. Alternator output (current) at idle can be as low as 10 amps and will increase with rpm. Just idling your car puts the output of your alternator just above "self-sustaining," there will probably not be enough overhead to get a decent charge on your battery. I believe your research to be incorrect. A 1/2 of driving may show some improvement... a 1/2 hour of idling probably not.


You can check this out:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html

I tried that link. it does not work.

[RUFFSTUFF]

That's strange... it works fine for me...


"http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html"

[ellenbetty]

That's strange... it works fine for me...


"http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html"

I was able to get the link to work by stripping off the " and then pasting a copy up where the web page address is displayed on my PC.

After reading the page, and checking several additional web sites, there is not agreement on how long it takes a car to fully charge a battery. It sounds like it would be a good idea to go with the more conservative points of view.

Based upon my experiences of the last two months, after reading additional view points on the Internet, I have decided to change my view point on how long to let the motor idle to charge the battery. A idle of 1/2 hour will charge the battery enough to restart the vehicle. Fast idle (putting foot on the gas peddle) works better than letting the motor's computer control the idle speed. The longest view I read was that it takes 120 minutes of non stop driving or 120 minutes of fast idling, to fully charge a car battery.

Some people think there are risks to fast idling for prolong time to charge a auto battery. Wearing out the brushes in the alternator is one problem that will occur. Wear on the motor will occur. Plus the risk of overheating the motor or alternator is greater when a vehicle is fast idling.

Since I have figured out a way to hook up the battery powered starter to charge the battery, while still being able to close the hood of the Yaris, by attaching the ground cable of the battery charger on the other side of the Yaris frame, my next experiment will be to see how long it will take the battery powered jump starter to charge the car battery enough to start the car. Keeping a 40% charge would greatly reduce the risk of a frozen battery in the coldest winter weather here in Ohio.

Given how I have reduced the number of social events I have been attending to reduce my chance of contracting the flu, that may be part of the reason my Yarises batteries are not getting driven to keep the batteries charged. Plus I started hypermiling a couple of months ago. Running the motor in a more fuel efficient manner may have a negative effect on the small alternator found in the Yaris ability to keep the batteries charged.

[cali yaris]

you said this:
100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

Sorry but you are wrong there and in post 104:

I think you are mistaking the cause of the additional power. Modern cars have sensors that detects the temperature of the gasoline air mix. The car's computer analyzes different sensors to decide the optimal amount of fuel to inject into the motor. More fuel is injected when the air fuel mix temperature is low to aid combustion to provide the additional energy needed to heat all of the fuel air mix for additional production of hp to keep the motor running.

It's just not so. Sorry. I won't post about it again, this thread was about your batteries, as you said.

[RUFFSTUFF]

you said this:

It's just not so. Sorry. I won't post about it again, this thread was about your batteries, as you said.


That was just her way of describing how an oxygen sensor or something sensor works... somewhere someday she may be right.


Ellenbetty, you are putting alot of effort into avoiding the obvious. Here's what I see...


1. You installed 2 fog lamp kits because you hate cars without fog lights but you bought 2 used cars without fog lights.
2. Something in both kits is not wired properly but you're not really interested in that.
3. Your batteries are draining and it's getting chilly.
4. You should never ever touch silicone caulk again. If you do, don't take pictures.
5. You don't want to drive your cars because you are afraid of getting sick from zombies.
6. You enjoy some alone time sitting in your car at idle for hours at end.
7. You think jumpstart power packs are magic boxes.
8. You think your car has a gas temp sensor.
9. Did I miss anything?

[ellenbetty]

You forgot number 10. Your mother should have washed your mouth out with soap more often.
1. I installed the fog lamps to extend the life of the low beam filaments.

2. disconnecting the fog lamp kits had zero effect on the problem.

5. It is a waste of gasoline to drive a car at highway speeds for 2 hours just to charge the battery, unless one is being chased by zombies. Most of the energy generated by burning gasoline would be consumed moving the weight of the car and fighting aerodynamic resistance. Running the motor for 2 hours while parked to charge the battery would consume a lot less gasoline.

8. Most modern motors have a temperature sensor in the cylinder block to inform the car's computer what temperature the cylinder block is. If the cylinder block is cold the gasoline will be cold as well.

7. There is quite a bit of difference between the different types of magic, which can be broken down into stage magic, which is based upon the concept of misdirection and misinformation, story telling magic, which is based a child's inability to tell the difference between make believe and reality, and how a battery powered jump starter works.

Inside of the battery powered jump starter is a lead acid battery which works by using electricity, which is made by the movement of free electrons, electrons released by chemical reactions or electrons movement on the surface of metal wires, caused by the movement of conflicting magnetic fields. The one way movement of electrons is used to break the chemical bond between lead and sulfur to create sulfuric acid, a unstable chemical compound used to store electrical energy. The lead acid battery is formed by the arrangement of layers of thin lead plates, held in place by the battery casing. The thin lead plates are surrounded by water mixed with sulfuric acid. The water, combined with how the lead plates are attached to each other in a directional pattern, directs electrons to flow in one of two directions.

A battery powered jump starter is group of components attached to a lead acid battery. When the cables attached to each end of the lead acid battery are attached to another lead acid battery, a circuit is created, permitting the free flow of electrons. The sulfuric acid reacts with the lead plates to release a large number of free electrons which flow in one direction because of the layout of the lead plates in relation to the sulfuric acid. The directional flow of electrons are used to jump the electron flow through the vehicle motor to start the motor.

When the battery powered jump starter is attached to the terminals of a discharged lead acid battery for a prolonged time, the electric power stored in the battery inside of the jump starter will flow into the discharged battery, transferring part of the energy stored in the battery in the jump starter to the discharged automobile battery.

9. Did I miss explaining any thing of importance?

[RUFFSTUFF]

You forgot number 10. Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada.

9. Did I miss explaining any thing of importance?


Yeah you forgot to mention that the jump starter has insufficient storage capacity to be effective as a battery charger for your car batteries. It's just another battery used for temporary power.

Extending the life of your "low beam filaments"? Ha That's a good one. We all need to extend the lives of our "low beam filaments" They'll only last what, 10,15,20 years before they burn out... ridiculously short life span.

It's EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE SENSOR, not gasoline going into your injectors temperature sensor. Hell, I don't even know if the Yaris has one.

Thanks for the totally enlightening tutorial on lead-acid reactions, but unfortunately it was wasted on me. After 19 years in the Department of Defense Nuclear Power Program I know just a little bit about electricity, so I'm going to take a few moments of my precious time to explain how a storage battery really works. Pull up a chair and get comfortable.

The most common storage battery is the lead-acid storage battery. The battery is made of a series of cells. Each cell is constructed of alternating lead oxide (PbO2) and spongy lead (Pb) plates immersed in an electrolyte solution of dilute sulfuric acid (H2SO4). The basic chemical reaction occurring at the negative plate when the cell discharges is the loss of electrons by lead (oxidation).

Pb + SO42− → PbSO4 + 2e−

At the positive plate, lead oxide gains electrons and passes into solution as Pb2+ ions (reduction). The Pb2+ ions combine with SO42- ions again forming PbSO4.
In the equation above which I can't show fully thanks to VBulletin, excess of electrons is produced at the negative plate and that electrons are consumed at the positive plate. Thus, a flow of electrons (current) occurs when an external path is provided between the negative and positive plates. The equations also show that as the cell discharges, a coating of insoluble lead sulfate (PbSO4) builds up on both the positive and negative plates. The PbSO4 causes an expansion of the materials into the voids or pores of the plates and results in a gradual clogging. If discharges are prolonged, excessive expansion may take place with the result that the plate may swell, creating mechanical stresses which reduce battery life. To minimize this condition, care must be taken to avoid discharging any cell beyond the low voltage limit. This is the point where your Yaris battery is dead and you a sitting in the parking lot trying to charge it at idle. Another effect during discharge is the consumption of SO42-, causing the acid concentration of the electrolyte to decrease. This results in a decrease in the specific gravity of the electrolyte. When so much of the active material has been converted into lead sulfate that the cell can no longer produce sufficient current, the cell is discharged.
If the discharged cell is properly connected to a d-c charging source of slightly higher than battery voltage, a current will flow through the cell in the opposite direction to that of discharge, and the cell is charging. On charge, lead sulfate goes to lead at the negative plate and to lead oxide at the positive plate, resulting in a reduction in weight and a gain in porosity of the plates. At the same time, the sulfate is restored to the electrolyte with the result that the specific gravity of the electrolyte increases.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Since the amount of sulfuric acid combining with the plates at any time during discharge is in direct proportion to the ampere-hours of discharge, the specific gravity of the electrolyte is a guide in determining the state of discharge of the lead-acid cell. The ratio of the weight of a certain volume of liquid to the weight of the same volume of water is called the specific gravity of the liquid. The specific gravity of pure water is 1.000. Sulfuric acid has a specific gravity of 1.830; thus, sulfuric acid is 1.830 times as heavy as water. The specific gravity of a mixture of sulfuric acid and water varies with the strength of the solution from 1.000 to 1.830. The specific gravity of the electrolyte in sample pilot cells is routinely measured to determine the state of charge of the battery. The specific gravity of the electrolyte is affected by temperature. The electrolyte expands and becomes less dense when heated and its specific gravity reading is lowered. The electrolyte contracts and becomes denser when cooled and its specific gravity reading is raised. Hydrometers used to measure specific gravity are calibrated at a specific temperature and are provided with a temperature correction factor, which must be applied to obtain correct readings when used at other than the calibrated temperature. But since we are talking primarily about maintenance free batteries, Hydrometers aren't a factor. The addition of sulfuric acid to a discharged lead-acid cell does not recharge the cell. Adding acid only increases the specific gravity of the electrolyte and does not convert the lead sulfate on the plates back into active material and consequently does not bring the cell back to a charged condition. A charging current must be passed through the cell to recharge it. As a cell charging operation nears completion, hydrogen and oxygen gases evolve. During discharge and idle periods, only hydrogen is produced in significant quantities.

I could go on about Hydrogen, Temperature Voltage Gassing and Maximum Cell Voltage, but It's early and I don't feel like it.

[RUFFSTUFF]

If you like I can refer you to the Department Of Energy Technical Standard on Electrical Science, it's only about 550 pages DOE-HDBK-1011/1-92 through DOE-HDBK-1011/4-92... a bit of light reading.

[RUFFSTUFF]

...Your mother should have washed your mouth out with soap more often...


Your mother should have... done something. :drinking:

[tomato]

Ahem.... (cough) (cough)

Everyone remember to be nice :biggrin:

[RUFFSTUFF]

Ahem.... (cough) (cough)

Everyone remember to be nice :biggrin:

But she was talkin' 'bout my momma!

[tomato]

Why don't we leave the Mom's out of the discussion all together :biggrin:

slippery slope ...

[ellenbetty]

Yes it would be nice for posters to avoid all insults, including insults about me being afraid of zombies who want to come along for the ride.

My experiment using the battery powered jump starter was successful. Leaving the jump starter attached to the car battery for 8 hours, at temperatures varying from 65 to 50 degrees F, transfered a charge. The charge transfered was not strong enough to start the vehicle, but the charge transfered to the car battery was strong enough to light up the dash. Enough of a charge was transfered to confirm that my goad is achievable, to use battery powered jump starters as trickle chargers to keep the energy level in the batteries high enough to prevent freezing of both car batteries this winter.

The second part of the experiment now is to find out how many battery powered jump starters are required to keep both car batteries charged enough to prevent both batteries from freezing this winter. The second part of the experiment will take time. Charging a fully discharged lead acid battery takes a lot of energy. The nice Fall weather hope fully aid me in achieving my goal. The warmer the outdoor temperature the faster the battery charge. The energy consumption during the first 1/2 of the charge cycle is high. I have to be careful not to over react to the slow rate of charge by buying too many battery powered jump starters. Since I have bought a second battery powered jump starter, I now have one jump starter charging one of the car batteries, while the other jump starter is recharging. I figure it will take two additional jump starters, to keep both cars batteries charged enough to prevent freezing.

It will be interesting to learn if using battery powered jump starters to keep both car batteries charged enough to keep both batteries from freezing will slowly lead to being able to keep both car batteries charged enough to start both vehicles. That way I can avoid opening the hood to swap out the partially discharged battery powered jump starter with a fresh jump starter in bad weather.

Hopefully by the middle of the next Spring, the small alternator in the Yaris, combined with the additional charge provided by the battery powered jump starter, will raise the charge in both car batteries back to being fully charged.

Then I can get back to working on the fog lamp kits to make sure that the fog lamp kits are properly installed.

[CTScott]

A much simpler solution may be to simply upgrade to a higher capacity battery. The Yaris has a decent amount of space for a larger capacity battery. I am currently running a 55Ah Sonnenschein battery in Crashy, and there is still space to go larger.

On my 09, which has keyless entry and remote start, I measured the off state current draw at approximately 300mA. This means that in 24 hours this powered off Yaris will use 7.2 Amp Hours. This is a significant amount of draw, as it means that this sitting Yaris will have a dead battery in less than two weeks.

On Crashy, who is a bare bones 08, I measured the off state current draw at approximately 160mA, which equates to 3.84 Amp Hours of draw in 24 hours.

In doing some measuring of current draw of various things while the ignition is off I found the following to have the most significant draw while powered off:

ECM: 50mA
Body ECU: 100mA
Radio: 5mA
Clock: 5mA
Keyless Entry/Remote Starter on my 09: 150mA


The ECM, radio, and clock are all reasonable. The keyless entry / remote starter on my 09 is no surprise as it is an active system waiting to hear from an RF remote. The body ECU is the one that really surprises me. This is an ECU that is built into the white plastic chunk that we tend to refer to as the under dash fuse panel.

If I had a Yaris, which spent weeks sitting, I would add a switch to the power feed to the main body ECU (connector D33 on the center of the back of the white chunk). This alone would triple the powered off battery life.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Okay, I give up... obviously logic and common sense is lost on some. Good luck.


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