The great intake debate!

[fmicle]

NST said that the damper is for NVH for the driver and to eliminate cabin noise!

Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise on a 12,000 dollar vehicle, show me anywhere else on the car the were concerned with cabin noise.

That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!

[camelll]

A great post but... what does the harmonic balancer and a failed water pump after a month have to do with one another? The most likely culprit is a defective water pump or improper installation.

NST came on here claiming that there solid pulley's will not or could not cause any damage so I posted in response. Don't get me wrong, I don't think his crank pulley caused his water pump failure. I believe I said that earlier. I think it is either a case of defective part or overtightened belt.

Again I am not bagging on NST's product, many people here have there pulley's with no ill effects, but make no mistake that there is a chance of damage when changing your crank pulley to a solid one, which NST claims there pulley cannot damage our cars when if fact it is very possible.

Mike if it can be determined that one of your crank pulley's caused some form of damage, what ever it is, how minor or how big, would you and NST be willing to warranty the part or parts that were determined to be damaged because of the pulley?

There are laws to cover buyers of aftermarket parts. But bearing experts can tell by looking at the bearings, shafts or journals that the bearings were riding on, if it was damaged due to harmonic vibrations. You better believe Toyota is gonna have someone look at those parts if your motor blows, bearings fail or seals are breaking and leaking and you try to take it in with an aftermarket pulley and claim it under warranty. Bearings are fairly easy to diagnose as to why they fail. Resonance is bad this is why Toyota dampens their crank pulley's. Its not all about the bearings though, these vibrations can cause crankshaft failure as well.

That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!

You are absolutely wrong. Show me a dyno before the cold air intake and after! Your but dyno is lying to you. You maybe gained 2 hp from your cold air intake, not 12 like they claim.

And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do.

[supmet]

That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!

A)Pulleys don't need regular changing like air filters, and changing a CAI filter means removing a headlight- turning a 5 minute chore into a multiple hour chore.
B) as camellll pointed out, you can't pass smog with a CAI.
C) TRD offers a CAI, where's the TRD pulleys?

we skipped apples and oranges, and went straight to apples and orangutans.

[cali yaris]

^
about B. above -- This is not 100% correct.

Many smog stations will allow a CAI if the car still passes the sniff test, which a Yaris will with a CAI properly installed. How picky they are about the visual inspection differs from place to place.

[ddongbap]

^
about B. above -- This is not 100% correct.

Many smog stations will allow a CAI if the car still passes the sniff test, which a Yaris will with a CAI properly installed. How picky they are about the visual inspection differs from place to place.

Or how much cash you have... =]

[fmicle]

You are absolutely wrong. Show me a dyno before the cold air intake and after! Your but dyno is lying to you. You maybe gained 2 hp from your cold air intake, not 12 like they claim.

And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do.

No, my friend, it is you, who is wrong here. You see, there are plenty of perfectly CARB legal CAI's out there, just not for the Yaris. And I am pretty sure it is just a matter of time and beaurocracy to get exemptions for some CAI's that work on the Yaris. Check out the CARB website and you'll see how long the list of CARB legal CAI's is.

That should take care of the "facts".

Now, regarding the claim about HP gain, I never gave any numbers, never said the CAI gave me 12 HP, but at least the one that I bought came with a dyno chart, which shows the improvement. If you do a little research on CAI's you will quickly learn that the reason they are not standard is because of noise and vibrations standards that manufacturers adhere to.

And since you asked for the dyno, here they are:
http://pgu4qw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pLtEmWkfZBOBV_4Vo4Ft-KpXmmIDW54R5Q7vu2GkVHgYY-gHhcl0k_1tsMNkoHmuxDLAhTxEyOzaSBgaSV0yClpJrOjpmoVY a/DynoHP.jpg
http://pgu4qw.blu.livefilestore.com/y1pRgvXnsshWKC2MpqIHw1KX0MoV_q_GgVeMoP3bEACV4voQNM Odz6vYemdHbclRne1DlpOyxcWvTqV_8r6iAn6graXqtvxQ5E3/DynoTorque.jpg

[fmicle]

B) as camellll pointed out, you can't pass smog with a CAI.


Of course you can, guys, come on, do your homework before making such statements, there are hundreds of CAI's out there that are legal and pass smog and everything, just none for the Yaris yet. I don't know what it takes to get an executive order, but I would imagine some CAI manufacturers should be working on that.

Also, you can pass the smog test with a modified car. Do some research on "smog referee" and you will see what I am talking about.

[mikenacarato]

just because your car has an intake does not mean you wont pass emissions. on obdII cars as long as your CEL is not on and there are no pending codes and your driving cycle has been done, you will pass. some places do check for cats though.

[Kioshi]

I'd be surprised all the people here with custom catbacks and running into problems passing emissions in California rather than a CAI (simple fix, remove before smog check and put back on later)....

[camelll]

No, my friend, it is you, who is wrong here. You see, there are plenty of perfectly CARB legal CAI's out there, just not for the Yaris. And I am pretty sure it is just a matter of time and beaurocracy to get exemptions for some CAI's that work on the Yaris. Check out the CARB website and you'll see how long the list of CARB legal CAI's is.

That should take care of the "facts".
They do have a good list of CARB legal CAI's but they also have a lot that are not listed, such as the Yaris. So it is hit or miss. If they are listed on there then I can almost assure you they are no better than the stock air box. For others who want to view what he is talking about CLICK ME (http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php). You can believe what ever you want. I think you should read post 57 again, here is a excerpt from it.

"And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do."

Now, regarding the claim about HP gain, I never gave any numbers, never said the CAI gave me 12 HP, but at least the one that I bought came with a dyno chart, which shows the improvement. If you do a little research on CAI's you will quickly learn that the reason they are not standard is because of noise and vibrations standards that manufacturers adhere to.

I asked for a dyno BEFORE and AFTER, and you bring a manufacturer claim. doubtful you are getting a 5-6 percent hp increase from a CAI with 70 hp stock dyno. Again dyno YOUR car BEFORE and AFTER then post those results.

Does carb deal with noise and vibration levels? Also how can we have any CARB legal CAI's since they all almost raise the noise level inside and outside the car. Please post some links up so I can read what you are talking about? There is almost no sound deadening in our cars, as a matter of fact I think the only sound deadening material they put in our cars they had to remove because it could possibly cause a fire. :laugh:

Of course you can, guys, come on, do your homework before making such statements, there are hundreds of CAI's out there that are legal and pass smog and everything, just none for the Yaris yet. I don't know what it takes to get an executive order, but I would imagine some CAI manufacturers should be working on that.

It has to do with emissions. Not noise and vibration as you believe. Noise reduction is a secondary benefit of the stock airbox. The car has been out since 2006 in the US. They already have 08's listed on the carb website for other vehicle manufacturers and some 09's.

Also, you can pass the smog test with a modified car. Do some research on "smog referee" and you will see what I am talking about.

No need to search smog referee, here is the smog check manual from the BAR, which had a link right on the CARB website.

http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResources/05_Legislative/RegulatoryActions/Smog%20Check%20Manual%20w-diesel%208-09%20V3.pdf

Here is a good read on intakes.
http://articles.sromagazine.com/different-types-of-air-intakes/

[fmicle]

It has to do with emissions. Not noise and vibration as you believe. Noise reduction is a secondary benefit of the stock airbox.

Here is a good read on intakes.
http://articles.sromagazine.com/different-types-of-air-intakes/


Here is the primary advantage of a stock intake, as listed in the link you provided above:

Advantages
Helps keeps the engine quiet.

It's not what "I believe", it's what the experts say, and I like to read.

:clap:

[camelll]

Here is the primary advantage of a stock intake, as listed in the link you provided above:

Advantages
Helps keeps the engine quiet.

It's not what "I believe", it's what the experts say, and I like to read.

:clap:

Out of context, that is an advantage, you like to read but take away what you want out of reading. Read the paragraph above!

"Stock Air Box.
With fuel injected vehicles you usually can’t even see it. It’s usually enclosed plastic. The vehicle designers usually make the stock air box draw cold air from outside the vehicle usually from the fender well. The air flow is restricted for emission purposes."

Again the noise is a secondary advantage which I have stated before but noise is not the reason they make intakes the way they do. Nice try though. Tell me what restrictions do motor companies have that they have to follow except safety and emissions? Answer some of my other questions why you are at it too!:clap:

[camelll]

Try reading a little farther down too!
"Legal Issues
Adding an intake system to your vehicle may make it illegal for road use. Because you are altering the engines emissions system the government wants to make sure that it does not create more pollutants than it should. California has the strictest laws pertaining to this so the better manufacturers will get a CARB # for the intake system. CARB means California Air Resource Board. Once an intake has been approved by CARB the intake system will require a sticker to be placed on a visible location on the intake system. It will have some numbers on the sticker called an “Executive Order Number”. This can be shown to smog technicians or police or CHP / State Troopers. Since California has the strictest emissions policy the intake will then be 50 state legal.

This is the Air Resource Lookup webpage for aftermarket parts:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/devices/amquery.php

Why Spend $200 vs. $40 for an intake?
Here is the reason why. The $200 intake system was probably designed and created by the company selling it. This means they Dyno tested different lengths and designs to try to gain the most horsepower for each vehicle. They then applied for a CARB number for this intake. When ordering your intake make sure it’s 50 state CARB legal.

The $40 intake system is just some company in the US importing over a generic design or copied intake system from China. These will not have a CARB number and the filters will usually fall apart within 6 months.

You might want to buy a cheap intake because you don’t car about CARB and you probably won’t get caught. If you do get caught, here is the scenario.

Police officer pulls you over. Asks you to pop your hood. They check out the intake and ask for the CARB number. There is none. So what happens? He gives you a fix it ticket to be signed off by the State Ref only. This ticket is charged by the city from $10-$100.

You then have to put on your stock air box (if you still have it), and then make an appointment with the State Referee. This cost $75 for them to inspect your car. If you have any other modifications they’ll find them, anything wrong they’ll find it and you’ll fail. These guys are strict.

Maybe you passed, maybe you didn’t? If you didn’t you have to go back to the State Ref until you do pass. If you did pass then they’ll sign off your ticket.

Now you have to go to court. You have to go show the judge that you got your ticket signed off. He’ll chuckle at the case, but you’ve already spent 2 days taking care of this ticket. So do some research before you buy and try to buy a 50 State CARB Legal intake for your car. Some good brands to look into are AEM, Injen, K&N, True Flow, and Weapon-R.
http://www.aempower.com
http://www.injen.com
http://www.knfilters.com
http://www.weapon-r.com

You can find intakes to purchase at our online store at

http://www.sroperformance.com/air-intakes-html.html

[fmicle]

Some more food for thought: if emissions are that important, how come my friend's 1984 carburetor Honda Civic is "legal"? Everytime he starts it, he has to wait for the smoke cloud to clear before he drives away...

What I'm trying to say here is that even if (and it's a big if) the smog numbers are slightly worse with a CAI, I bet they are still well within the range they should be for this car.

I have absolutely no doubts that my car would pass the smog test itself, if nobody opened the hood... I may in fact go get a smog test for the heck of it...

Did anyone do a smog check with a CAI by any chance and can chime in?

[camelll]

Some more food for thought: if emissions are that important, how come my friend's 1984 carburetor Honda Civic is "legal"? Everytime he starts it, he has to wait for the smoke cloud to clear before he drives away...

What I'm trying to say here is that even if (and it's a big if) the smog numbers are slightly worse with a CAI, I bet they are still well within the range they should be for this car.

I have absolutely no doubts that my car would pass the smog test itself, if nobody opened the hood... I may in fact go get a smog test for the heck of it...

Did anyone do a smog check with a CAI by any chance and can chime in?

You can believe what you want, but the hard truth about this is that stock intakes are designed for emissions control. I have no idea when they started carb in california, he may be grandfathered in.

[camelll]

fmicle by all means get your car tested. You will not pass visual because you don't have a carb number on your intake. You may pass smog but you will still not pass because of the visual.

Do you have a SRI or a CAI?

[fmicle]

I am not debating whether stock intake provides better emissions, that's obvious, but manufacturers don't design parts with one goal in mind only. They are aiming for many things with one design: emissions, noise, vibrations, safety, reliability, easy access/replacement, compatibility among different models etc. I don't believe the main factor for better emissions is the air intake, I believe it's the ECU, the fuel mixture, air to fuel ratio, not to mention the fuel itself. That's why gas in California is most expensive in the US, because it's higher grade, meant to produce less smog - no matter what car you put it in.

Usually smog numbers are relative, parts per million or whatever measuring units they use. More air, means more fuel being burnt, but the ratio of exhaust gases will be the same, as a percentage of the whole. Of course in absolute numbers with the stock intake it will be less, because if you pump in less air, you burn less fuel, so there is less exhaust. But I believe the smog measures concentration of gases in the exhaust and not the absolute number of SO2, CO2, CO and whatever other molecules produced.

[fmicle]

fmicle by all means get your car tested. You will not pass visual because you don't have a carb number on your intake. You may pass smog but you will still not pass because of the visual.

Do you have a SRI or a CAI?

I know I won't pass for now, but I think it's just a matter of time until a manufacturer obtains an executive order for a CAI. What I'm trying to say here is that the reason I wouldn't pass is beaurocracy related and not emissions related. But at the end of the day, it's just a guess :smile:

I have an AEM CAI.

I just searched the CARB database and found that an AEM CAI for a 1990 Honda Civic is legal and it looks just like mine, same filter, the pipe seems to be a little longer. So what's the difference in emissions?

I believe thata there are more Civics out there than Yarii and it made sense from a business perspective for AEM to go through the certification process.

Here, from the CARB website, for 92-96 Honda Prelude:
Factor air cleaner and intake air tubing is removed and replaced with an open element style filter. Aluminum tubing is used between the air filter and the throttle body.

That's exactly what I have. Legal for the Prelude, illegal for Yaris. I could probably sue for discrimination if I ever get a ticket :wink:

[Mouse]

This is exactly why CALI sucks to live in.

[Brian]

When I got pulled over by CHP they looked under my hood and saw my TRD CAI. They asked where
the E.O. # for it was. Knowing it didn't have one, I just said I didn't know and that I got it installed when
I bought the car. They didn't know any better. They also thought my HID ballasts had something to
with altering the ignition and my scanguage 2 was a boost controller.

[Tamago]

That's why gas in California is most expensive in the US, because it's higher grade, meant to produce less smog - no matter what car you put it in.

LOL :laughabove:

[fmicle]

This is exactly why CALI sucks to live in.

38 million people cannot be all wrong, can they? :tongue:

[camelll]

Emissions and fuel economy are the only reason why they design them the way they do. Noise reduction is an advantage. They do not give a crap about noise. Look at the rest of the car, there is really no sound deadening in our cars. Show me where you get your info from.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warm_air_intake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Air_Resources_Board
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Clean_Air_Act
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internal_combustion_engine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atmospheric_pressure
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_vacuum
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturally-aspirated_engine

[camelll]

LOL :laughabove:

:bellyroll: That is what I thought

[camelll]

You should also do a little bit of reading about octane!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

[camelll]

fmicle, I am not trying to knock on you but rather help you learn so don't take it the wrong way. I know sometimes the way I type things come out the wrong way. This is what is bad about the internet, there is no face to face communications.

[cali yaris]

Every time camelll posts this as fact:

fmicle by all means get your car tested. You will not pass visual because you don't have a carb number on your intake. You may pass smog but you will still not pass because of the visual.

I say there are plenty of stations that will pass a CAI on visual (most of them, in fact) and that I have first hand experience to back up my statement.

Stop posting something as universal fact when it just ain't so in real life.

[camelll]

Cali the law is fact, if you do not have a carb number on your intake you should not pass inspection. If the ref that is doing the testing passes your car without a number then they are breaking the law. You may get pulled over for speeding but not get a ticket, this does not mean you did not break the law.

The person that passed you was not doing their job.

* edit * Are you saying that an aftermarket intake without a carb number is not against the law?

[camelll]

Also are you agreeing with fmicle about emissions and intakes?

[fmicle]

You should also do a little bit of reading about octane!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating

The quality of the fuel has nothing to do with the octane. Maybe I should't have used the word "grade", I thought we were going to stick to the substance and not pick on details like that.

This is common knowledge in California, that we can't import fuel from all over the country because not all refineries match the requirements for clean fuel (additives, sulfur, what not).

[fmicle]

fmicle, I am not trying to knock on you but rather help you learn so don't take it the wrong way. I know sometimes the way I type things come out the wrong way. This is what is bad about the internet, there is no face to face communications.

Oh, no, don't worry, you need to learn as well, but I have patience and will provide you with links and information :smile:

[camelll]

This is what octane ratings are all about, not additives. The price for everything is higher in California as compared to the Midwest. Our cars are made to run on 89 octane, you do not get better emissions with higher octane. I am not nit picking just providing reading material. I never said anywhere that fuel quality has to do with octane. Some gases my be formulated to reduce certain vehicle emissions depending on the state they are sold in but the main thing with octane is anti knock properties.


"The octane rating is a measure of the resistance of gasoline and other fuels to detonation (engine knocking) in spark-ignition internal combustion engines. High-performance engines typically have higher compression ratios and are therefore more prone to detonation, so they require higher octane fuel. A lower-performance engine will not generally perform better with high-octane fuel, since the compression ratio is fixed by the engine design."


http://www.eia.doe.gov/bookshelf/brochures/gasoline/index.html

[camelll]

Oh, no, don't worry, you need to learn as well, but I have patience and will provide you with links and information :smile:

LOL, I have not seen a link from you yet. Teach me grasshopper.:laugh:

[fmicle]

Also are you agreeing with fmicle about emissions and intakes?

Is that what's bothering you? :smile:

As I said above, I thought we're sticking to substance here and not to egos.

[Tamago]

what's legal and what you can get away with (or not get away with) are two very different things.

this thread is useless because obviously the law says a CARB sticker must be applied to any performance part for it to be legal. that's the law.

end of thread, no more discussion.

[camelll]

Is that what's bothering you? :smile:

As I said above, I thought we're sticking to substance here and not to egos.

This has nothing to do with ego. I am curious if he feels the same way you do on air intakes. This is all substance. The law is factual and full of substance.

[camelll]

what's legal and what you can get away with (or not get away with) are two very different things.

this thread is useless because obviously the law says a CARB sticker must be applied to any performance part for it to be legal. that's the law.

end of thread, no more discussion.

No I was making a point. This has nothing to do with why car manufacturers make air intakes the way they do. What do you think tamago? Do you think they make them because the noise they make is to great for the driver? :bellyroll:

We don't have emissions testing so I don't care about them.

[camelll]

I have other stuff to do, so post away, I will be back later.

[fmicle]

LOL, I have not seen a link from you yet. Teach me grasshopper.:laugh:

Alright, here they come:

California has special requirements for gasoline, which makes it more expensive because of less availability. We also use different blends for winter vs. summer. That's what I was referring to when I said "grade". Never thought or meant octane, you did.

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/gasoline.html

Here is the article on cold air intakes on Wikipedia (I really don't know what will convince you because you seem so arrogant as to believe that you and only you know the truth). The first sentence is:

Standard air intake systems tend to be very restrictive, in order to eliminate engine noise.

The whole article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_air_intake

I remember seeing a video interview with an engineering expert, when I was shopping for my intake and he was saying the same thing. That's the main reason, noise. I did not come up with this in my dreams. Unfortunately, I can't find the link to the video right now, but I will eventually and will post it here, so you can be enlightened as well.

[cali yaris]

@ camelll:

You said: It WON'T pass.

I said: They do pass.

You are incorrect that "it won't pass". That is not a factual statement.

You can say "it won't legally pass", which I would agree with. But you didn't.

done.

[fmicle]

what's legal and what you can get away with (or not get away with) are two very different things.

this thread is useless because obviously the law says a CARB sticker must be applied to any performance part for it to be legal. that's the law.

end of thread, no more discussion.

Tamago, the real discussion was not on whether it is legal or not, I agreed long time ago that it is not legal and that I would not pass the smog. The discussion is more whether the stock intake is meant to reduce noise primarily or emissions.

[Tamago]

No I was making a point. This has nothing to do with why car manufacturers make air intakes the way they do. What do you think tamago? Do you think they make them because the noise they make is to great for the driver? :bellyroll:

We don't have emissions testing so I don't care about them.

manufacturers make intakes down to a price.

then they add air chambers for low end torque

then they add baffles to make them quieter

IMO an intake on an econobox was designed FIRST to be cheap, Second to be quiet, and Third (waaaay out there) to make power.

[Tamago]

Tamago, the real discussion was not on whether it is legal or not, I agreed long time ago that it is not legal and that I would not pass the smog. The discussion is more whether the stock intake is meant to reduce noise primarily or emissions.

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.

[fmicle]

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.

Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

[Tamago]

Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

[fmicle]

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

Amen! :clap:

That's what I think, too, it's the air/fuel ratio, the gasoline itself and the catalytic converter which determines what comes out the exhaust, not the air intake.

[fmicle]

Camelll, here is more technical info, from www.autoanything.com:

Automakers design your vehicle's intake tube to be the quietest possible unit that can fit in your engine compartment.

The complete link for your reading pleasure: http://www.autoanything.com/air-intakes/50A5A115A1.aspx

[tk-421]

Moved previously OT posts to this thread. Have fun fellas.

For the record, I'm 100% sure I can pass emissions with my Simota CF box filter. :thumbsup:

[HTM Yaris]

I say the primary function is shared .

In a cold air system there isn't any "box" or baffles to help muffle or deflect (maybe redirect is the proper term) the sound waves coming from the engine . Actually the exhaust and intake work almost identically , with the exception of the temps and flow direction . Take off your muffler and what happens ..... That's right... it gets louder . Same with the intake box . CAI are designed to increase flow . Sure your filter may be away from the engine or even shielded from the engine , but the actual intake tube is still being heated by means of convection (air flowing through radiator ) and conduction ( you know , those explosions that are generated in the cylinders ) not to mention friction . A true CAI would address all heat issues . A refrigerated wrap around ( the intake tube ) blanket comes to mind .

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution . A turbocharger or supercharger is a perfect (extreme) example of this . Yes I understand that a Turbo or SC forces air into the engine , but my point is more air = more exhaust . Keep in mind , any engine , is nothing but an air pump with accessories attached .

[fmicle]

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution .

But you don't need a CAI for that, just press the gas pedal harder and you'll get more air into the engine :smile: So what's the difference in the end? :smile:

[camelll]

Alright, here they come:

California has special requirements for gasoline, which makes it more expensive because of less availability. We also use different blends for winter vs. summer. That's what I was referring to when I said "grade". Never thought or meant octane, you did.

http://www.physics.uci.edu/~silverma/gasoline.html

Here is the article on cold air intakes on Wikipedia (I really don't know what will convince you because you seem so arrogant as to believe that you and only you know the truth). The first sentence is:

Standard air intake systems tend to be very restrictive, in order to eliminate engine noise.

The whole article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_air_intake

I remember seeing a video interview with an engineering expert, when I was shopping for my intake and he was saying the same thing. That's the main reason, noise. I did not come up with this in my dreams. Unfortunately, I can't find the link to the video right now, but I will eventually and will post it here, so you can be enlightened as well.

The problem with your wikipedia cold air intake is that it says this right at the top.

" This article or section has multiple issues. Please help improve the article or discuss these issues on the talk page.

* It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since July 2008.
* It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since July 2008.
* It may require general cleanup to meet Wikipedia's quality standards. Tagged since July 2008.

@ camelll:

You said: It WON'T pass.

I said: They do pass.

You are incorrect that "it won't pass". That is not a factual statement.

You can say "it won't legally pass", which I would agree with. But you didn't.

done.

It technically won't pass, because someone does not feel like doing their job does not mean it is okay.

explain how an intake can reduce or increase emissions please.


Well see that's camell's point, I never said a CAI had anything to do with emissions. I said the stock intake's main purpose the way it is (different from a CAI) is to reduce noise.

So I believe you and I are on the same page here. But camell keeps stating that it's the emissions, which I disagree with.

noise is an emission

but from the aspect of "air quality" emissions, i have no idea how an intake would cause your car to blow out more "bad" gasses. now, if you're bypassing your PCV setup with your intake (dumping oily air into the environment) that could affect emissions, but it would not be measurable at the tail pipe with a sniffer.

Amen! :clap:

That's what I think, too, it's the air/fuel ratio, the gasoline itself and the catalytic converter which determines what comes out the exhaust, not the air intake.

More oxygen= more gas, more gas= more emissions. Your cats will do their job but you are still producing more emissions. Your air/fuel ratio is determined by how much air you put in from the intake. The maf makes adjustments as needed. When you have a lean condition, which you get by adding more oxygen, your maf tells the ecu to dump more fuel which in turn does so which raises emissions. Your cats are gonna remove noxious emissions but you are still putting more into your cats.
Camelll, here is more technical info, from www.autoanything.com:

Automakers design your vehicle's intake tube to be the quietest possible unit that can fit in your engine compartment.

The complete link for your reading pleasure: http://www.autoanything.com/air-intakes/50A5A115A1.aspx

Of course someone who is selling you something is gonna say it is okay, if they did otherwise it would have a negative impact on their sales. If the air intake does not affect emissions why do they even bother with it for carb?

Moved previously OT posts to this thread. Have fun fellas.

For the record, I'm 100% sure I can pass emissions with my Simota CF box filter. :thumbsup:
Thanks TK, It probably pass but not if you follow the rules.
I say the primary function is shared .

In a cold air system there isn't any "box" or baffles to help muffle or deflect (maybe redirect is the proper term) the sound waves coming from the engine . Actually the exhaust and intake work almost identically , with the exception of the temps and flow direction . Take off your muffler and what happens ..... That's right... it gets louder . Same with the intake box . CAI are designed to increase flow . Sure your filter may be away from the engine or even shielded from the engine , but the actual intake tube is still being heated by means of convection (air flowing through radiator ) and conduction ( you know , those explosions that are generated in the cylinders ) not to mention friction . A true CAI would address all heat issues . A refrigerated wrap around ( the intake tube ) blanket comes to mind .

As for emissions , that's easy . Add more air (CAI) and the ecu will compensate by adding more fuel . Which in turn means more pollution . A turbocharger or supercharger is a perfect (extreme) example of this . Yes I understand that a Turbo or SC forces air into the engine , but my point is more air = more exhaust . Keep in mind , any engine , is nothing but an air pump with accessories attached .

+1 someone who knows.

If you removed your cats and did a sniff test with the stock box and then removed the stock box and put a cai on your emissions will be higher. The debate is not about if your catalytic converters do their jobs it is if the air intake will affect emissions.

[camelll]

But you don't need a CAI for that, just press the gas pedal harder and you'll get more air into the engine :smile: So what's the difference in the end? :smile:

Your getting more warm air into the engine with the stock box, you are getting more cold air with a cai, cold air is denser than warm air.

[fmicle]

So, I shouldn't believe Wikipedia, I shouldn't believe AEM, I shouldn't believe autoanything.com, but I should believe YOU, because YOU put my best interest at heart, while everyone else is just trying to trick me into buying their product.

Sure...

[camelll]

No you believe what you want. That wiki entry is not reliable because: "It does not cite any references or sources. Please help improve it by citing reliable sources. Tagged since July 2008.
It may contain original research or unverifiable claims. Tagged since July 2008."

No one has been able to verify the claims and if it has no references to back up its claims then it is a moot point.

People that are selling you products are out to make money, not to give you the best advice possible. Again if a cai did not affect emissions then why would carb bother with it? You can believe what you want I have no benefit from telling you this. An easy way to prove this about a company is to dyno your car with your stock box on and then put the cai on and dyno it again. You are not going to get 5 hp from your intake. Do you have a cai or a sri?

[fmicle]

Your getting more warm air into the engine with the stock box, you are getting more cold air with a cai, cold air is denser than warm air.

And how does that make the exhaust gas more polluting? You still haven't explained that!

More air means more exhaust. Duh, of course!!! So does more driving. I still don't see the point.

If, say, 20% of the exhaust are emissions, if you put more air in, you'll get more exhaust, but still, only 20% of that will be emissions. So how is that worse?

Smog measures the percentage of pollutants in the exhaust gas and so far nobody has shown that more air in the engine increases the percentage of pollutants. You've only said that more air in equals more exhaust, to which I say: DUH!

[HTM Yaris]

Other than increased pollution , none .

Excuse me , I got this dumb ass deer in my yard . I got to eliminate him from the gene pool . Besides...... I'm hungry ........ Can you say "Smoked Tenderloin" . See Ya after dinner .................

[fmicle]

Other than increased pollution , none .

Excuse me , I got this dumb ass deer in my yard . I got to eliminate him from the gene pool . Besides...... I'm hungry ........ Can you say "Smoked Tenderloin" . See Ya after dinner .................

I see a lot of increased pollution too: the gun powder used to eliminate the deer, unless you're using a bow and arrow :wink: and then there is the smoked tenderloin, which speaks pollution with a capital P :wink:

Some pictures would be nice :smile:

[camelll]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion. Yes this needs additional citations for verification, but it has sources and does not have any unverifiable claims. If you don't think that adding and burning more fuel does not cause more emissions then I don't know what to tell you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas
"Although the largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (CO2) (except with hydrogen as fuel), a relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides (NOx), partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter."

[camelll]

And how does that make the exhaust gas more polluting? You still haven't explained that!

More air means more exhaust. Duh, of course!!! So does more driving. I still don't see the point.

If, say, 20% of the exhaust are emissions, if you put more air in, you'll get more exhaust, but still, only 20% of that will be emissions. So how is that worse?

Smog measures the percentage of pollutants in the exhaust gas and so far nobody has shown that more air in the engine increases the percentage of pollutants. You've only said that more air in equals more exhaust, to which I say: DUH!
You are saying it yourself, that the air intake can affect emissions. What more can I say.

[fmicle]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion. Yes this needs additional citations for verification, but it has sources and does not have any unverifiable claims. If you don't think that adding and burning more fuel does not cause more emissions then I don't know what to tell you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas
"Although the largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (CO2) (except with hydrogen as fuel), a relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides (NOx), partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter."

Do you understand the concepts of "absolute" and "relative"?

20% of 100 is the same as 20% of 1,000,000 in "relative" terms. THE SAME. That's how smog is measured in percentage!!!

Yes, I am putting out more exhaust, but it doesn't have a higher percentage of pollutants, it's the same percentage!

A CAI is causing more emissions the same way driving more causes more emissions. Someone driving 100 miles will cause double the pollution of someone driving 50 miles. Simple enough for you? According to your logic the first guy should not pass the smog :smile:

[fmicle]

You are saying it yourself, that the air intake can affect emissions. What more can I say.

How old are you?

[mikenacarato]

this thread is fail.

cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

[fmicle]

this thread is fail.


Sadly, I agree.


cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

That's not what we're debating. The issue here is whether the main purpose of the restrictive stock intake is to reduce noise or to improve emissions.

[camelll]

Do you understand the concepts of "absolute" and "relative"?

20% of 100 is the same as 20% of 1,000,000 in "relative" terms. THE SAME. That's how smog is measured in percentage!!!

Yes, I am putting out more exhaust, but it doesn't have a higher percentage of pollutants, it's the same percentage!

A CAI is causing more emissions the same way driving more causes more emissions. Someone driving 100 miles will cause double the pollution of someone driving 50 miles. Simple enough for you? According to your logic the first guy should not pass the smog :smile:
To say that 20 percent of 100 is the same as 20 percent of a million is silly, 20 pph is different than 20 ppm. You will not pass if you are putting out 20 pph but you may pass with 20 ppm. I don't live in California and cannot tell you how they do smog test. What is the baseline and what percentage do you need to pass? To say that burning more fuel does not equate to more emissions or noxious gas is silly.
How old are you?
HA HA enough to know that burning more fuel makes more emissions.

[HTM Yaris]

20 % of 3.0 liters (.6) ( or whatever they measure air in ) is greater than 20 % of 1.5 liters (.3) . I'm not sure ( We don't have smog test here in South Carolina ) , but I would guess that the percentage would based in part by the number of cylinders . I mean that is the whole idea behind CAFE , which starts next year ...I think . A 4 and 8 cylinder may have the same percentage , but the actual number value won't be the same .

[camelll]

this thread is fail.

cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

Why would you even post or read if you feel that way. This thread is about intake and emissions, not if it will pass or fail. Unsubscribe if you don't want to read it.

[camelll]

Sadly, I agree.

Why are you participating then?

[mikenacarato]

camelll must be supmets brother...

well here is my two cents...did you know a cold air intake causes the air to be more dense and combust better...IE more fuel is burned off and less emissions are created. Ill say it one more time so you understand... the more complete the burn..the less emissions you will have. CAIs help this process.

this brings me to my next point...how come they are called airbox silencers? because their primary function is to reduce cabin noise.

[fmicle]

I feel like giving up. If you don't understand that 20% is the same as 20% I can't debate you anymore.

20% of 1,000,000 = 200,000 and not 20 ppm. I have a math degree and your statements make me shake my head in disbelief.

The smog checks percentage of pollutants in exhaust, so unless the percentage changes, the smog results are the same, no matter how much are you're pushing through the engine.

To make it easy for you to understand: about 20% of air is oxygen, alright? Whether it's a room full of air or a small bag, it's still 20%. Just because a room has more air it doesn't mean the air is cleaner than in a smaller space!

Here is how the smog check is done - I honestly don't understand how you can even argue with me when you don't know how the smog test is done. You're telling me I am wrong and at the same time you say you don't know how the smog is done! How ridiculous is that?

3. Emissions Test:
So what exactly is the sniffer measuring?

HCs are essentially unburned fuel. When you hear about octane it's often a reference to the anti-knock index at the pump (87 etc) but it is also a reference to the chemical composition of fuel, part of which is made from C8H18 (eight carbon atoms and 18 hydrogen atoms; hence octane). HC is measured in parts per million (ppm) by the sniffer.

When fuel (HC) and air (O2 + N2) are combusted the ideal product would be energy and water vapor (H20). Because the combustion process is imperfect, CO is one of the byproducts produced. CO is measured as a percentage of the exhaust gas. It is a colorless odorless gas and if you breath it, it will combine with the hemoglobin in your blood and make you sick or kill you in larger doses. Running your engine in the garage is a great way to pass out and possibly die.

CO is also used as an indicator of fuel mixture ratio. An ideal percentage of excess CO would be zero. In practice the %CO measured is a few percentage points: a fuel ratio the VW engine can burn efficiently in all climates, temperatures and conditions. For example, 1-2% would be a relatively lean fuel ratio for a VW especially fuel injected models; 10% very rich (so much so that you can smell the unburned fuel from the exhaust pipe).

NOx is produced when combustion chamber temperatures are high. It was once viewed as the #1 enemy and responsible for the smog in the LA basin. At that time emission reducing devices were geared towards reducing it at the expense of other emissions. That was 20 years ago and since then scientists have come to understand that all the emissions are destructive especially CO2 (a harmful greenhouse gas).

Unfortunately on a VW there is no simple way to minimize all three emissions at once like a modern car is able to do. Lower the HC and CO by leaning out the engine and you produce too much NOx and vice versa. Plus, the catalytic converter (which few models are equipped with) can only do its job at the near perfect fuel ratio (theoretically ideal) which isn't the best ratio for long life of an air-cooled engine.

[fmicle]

Why are you participating then?

Not much longer, this is hopeless, because you don't know what you're talking about, you just like to argue.

[Tamago]

i'm not gonna waste time quoting but the "more air = more emissions" comment cracks me up. yes, you are physically moving more air in and out of your engine using a less-restrictive intake, but in what way does that make it "bad" emissions? more emissions generally means more BAD air, not just more air in general. if this were the case then a V8 would automatically not pass the sniff test simply because it moves more "emissions" (lol) at idle than a yaris.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


i'm officially leaving this thread. people are trying to be too smart for their own good. yet another fine example of overthinking the pointless debate.

[fmicle]

+1

[camelll]

Bye!:laugh:, and thanks for your comments.

[camelll]

camelll must be supmets brother...

well here is my two cents...did you know a cold air intake causes the air to be more dense and combust better...IE more fuel is burned off and less emissions are created. Ill say it one more time so you understand... the more complete the burn..the less emissions you will have. CAIs help this process.

this brings me to my next point...how come they are called airbox silencers? because their primary function is to reduce cabin noise.

Well glad to see that you agree with me on the fact that a CAI will in fact change emissions. Congrats on realizing what the debate is about. Noise reduction is a secondary advantage of the stock boxes.

I feel like giving up. If you don't understand that 20% is the same as 20% I can't debate you anymore.

20% of 1,000,000 = 200,000 and not 20 ppm. I have a math degree and your statements make me shake my head in disbelief.

The smog checks percentage of pollutants in exhaust, so unless the percentage changes, the smog results are the same, no matter how much are you're pushing through the engine.

To make it easy for you to understand: about 20% of air is oxygen, alright? Whether it's a room full of air or a small bag, it's still 20%. Just because a room has more air it doesn't mean the air is cleaner than in a smaller space!
I understand that 20 percent is 20 percent, I used the pph and ppm as an example not as a fact that 20 percent of 1,000,000 is so many ppm. There is a a lot less air to go around in the smaller space, you may still have the same composition, but it takes a lot less to change the composition of the smaller space.

Here is how the smog check is done - I honestly don't understand how you can even argue with me when you don't know how the smog test is done. You're telling me I am wrong and at the same time you say you don't know how the smog is done! How ridiculous is that?

3. Emissions Test:
So what exactly is the sniffer measuring?

HCs are essentially unburned fuel. When you hear about octane it's often a reference to the anti-knock index at the pump (87 etc) but it is also a reference to the chemical composition of fuel, part of which is made from C8H18 (eight carbon atoms and 18 hydrogen atoms; hence octane). HC is measured in parts per million (ppm) by the sniffer.

When fuel (HC) and air (O2 + N2) are combusted the ideal product would be energy and water vapor (H20). Because the combustion process is imperfect, CO is one of the byproducts produced. CO is measured as a percentage of the exhaust gas. It is a colorless odorless gas and if you breath it, it will combine with the hemoglobin in your blood and make you sick or kill you in larger doses. Running your engine in the garage is a great way to pass out and possibly die.

CO is also used as an indicator of fuel mixture ratio. An ideal percentage of excess CO would be zero. In practice the %CO measured is a few percentage points: a fuel ratio the VW engine can burn efficiently in all climates, temperatures and conditions. For example, 1-2% would be a relatively lean fuel ratio for a VW especially fuel injected models; 10% very rich (so much so that you can smell the unburned fuel from the exhaust pipe).

NOx is produced when combustion chamber temperatures are high. It was once viewed as the #1 enemy and responsible for the smog in the LA basin. At that time emission reducing devices were geared towards reducing it at the expense of other emissions. That was 20 years ago and since then scientists have come to understand that all the emissions are destructive especially CO2 (a harmful greenhouse gas).

Unfortunately on a VW there is no simple way to minimize all three emissions at once like a modern car is able to do. Lower the HC and CO by leaning out the engine and you produce too much NOx and vice versa. Plus, the catalytic converter (which few models are equipped with) can only do its job at the near perfect fuel ratio (theoretically ideal) which isn't the best ratio for long life of an air-cooled engine.


Well I assumed it was done reading part per million or parts per billion, and obviously it is if any part of of there figures are in ppm or pbm. As to how they determine what percentage is acceptable has yet to be provided. Glad you found something on a vw forum about smog testing. Post me something from the carb board that shows testing is done in percentages and not PPM or PPB. Why is your intake not carb legal? Oh because it does not do anything to emissions. You still may be able to pass smog but it certainly changes the amount, for good or bad.

Not much longer, this is hopeless, because you don't know what you're talking about, you just like to argue. You have not posted one single thing that shows otherwise that air intakes change emissions.

i'm not gonna waste time quoting but the "more air = more emissions" comment cracks me up. yes, you are physically moving more air in and out of your engine using a less-restrictive intake, but in what way does that make it "bad" emissions? more emissions generally means more BAD air, not just more air in general. if this were the case then a V8 would automatically not pass the sniff test simply because it moves more "emissions" (lol) at idle than a yaris.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:


i'm officially leaving this thread. people are trying to be too smart for their own good. yet another fine example of overthinking the pointless debate.

Typical tamago post, this kind of reminds me of the crank pulley. Show me something that can prove otherwise. Your v8 analogy is not accurate either because of intake design, catalytic converters and other emissions components. A 5.0 liter emissions control system is designed for a 5.0 liter, just as a 1.5 is designed for a 1.5.
+1

AGAIN, IF A CAI DOES NOT CHANGE EMISSIONS OR FUEL ECONOMY WHY DOES CARB EVEN DEAL WITH IT? WHY WOULD THEY WANT THE HEADACHE? WHY WOULD TOYOTA NOT MAKE A CAI STOCK? PLEASE DON'T SAY BECAUSE OF COST, I AM PRETTY SURE THEY COULD MAKE CAI'S JUST AS CHEAP. WHY DO MANUFACTURERS OF MOST SRI'S AND CAI'S STATE THEY ARE FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY? PLEASE ANSWER THESE QUESTIONS.

[camelll]

I have a CAI, thank you very much.