Question for computer geeks, netwrk. admins, or anyone

[tomato]

Let's say that you're running a small business network, and the workstations (PC's) are about 5 years old, and just about to run out of their extended warranty w/ DELL.

Workstations are sluggish but still good, parts have been changed as needed (DELL had a bad batch of motherboard with faulty capacitors, and sure enough, we got them, but DELL has honored the warranty every time and replaced the boards and misc. failed hardware as needed), so right now everything is running and in production.

Current workstations' OS is Win 2000, and they are running non-mainstream software, very specific to the business, without any problem right now. But

1) extended warranty on hardware is running out
2) some of that software is asking for upgrades which exceeds the capacity of the workstations (we can add memory but we can't make the processors faster!)

So we're thinking of replacing the workstations.

We know that the applications we're running will be fine with Windows XP Pro.
We know that some will NOT work with Vista, so Vista Pro is not an option (otherwise it would be an easy decision)
We expect they would work with Windows 7, but haven't tested that yet. In fact, if we go that road, we probably would wait a few months until all the Beta testers out there have returned their verdict :biggrin:

So what would you do:

Option No. 1) purchase XP stations right now but run the risk of going obsolete too soon
Option No. 2) extend warranty again and wait for Windows 7 to come out and be thoroughly tested
Option No. 3) take a chance, save money on extended warranty and wait for Windows 7 (kind of makes me nervous because we don't keep spare workstations)


Thoughts, anyone?

(No, we're not getting Macs! :tongue:)

[tomato]

Maybe I should pose the question a little differently.

What is the most cost-effective upgrade?

(keeping in mind that time spent upgrading and/or fixing computers is also a cost for a business, which is why getting hardware warranties make sense, they come, they see, they fix, at a very small cost per year. )

[YAR1S]

Get a Mac!

lol jk
I have no idea....

sorry :p
but seriously when does the beta testing for win7 end? and can you wait that long to find out if its going to work out?? If not then you have no option than to switch programs and get upgraded comps OR upgrade your old comps and keep apps......

[AmyV]

Hey tomato.

I spent several years doing computer repair, upgrades, and networking. Out of the options you laid, I like option 2 or 3 the best. Personally, I would go with 3, but that all depends on how much of a risk-taker you are. Plus, you obviously know the finances and position of the company better than I do.

I would definitely wait til testing is done before going to Windows 7. XP is already almost obsolete. Nothing is getting produced for XP anymore.

So whether or not you extend the warranty, I would wait til 7 comes out and is pretty much debugged before 'upgrading' (hahaha.... but I use the term 'upgrading' here loosely... :laugh:)

Hope this helps!!!

[tomato]

It sure does, Amy! I'm leaning towards what you just said but still thought I'd pose the question and see what ideas people will throw at me.

Actually, the cost of renewing the warranties (if the manufacturer is still willing) is negligible compared to the cost of downtime for one of these machines for an extended period of time.

I could also get a couple of spare workstations for cheap, image them and keep them around as spare, and forego extended warranties as well.

PS. And by the way, Amy, I see that you're new to the board ... Welcome and enjoy YW :smile:

[tomato]

Get a Mac!

lol jk
I have no idea....

sorry :p
but seriously when does the beta testing for win7 end? and can you wait that long to find out if its going to work out?? If not then you have no option than to switch programs and get upgraded comps OR upgrade your old comps and keep apps......

I hear ya. would it be such a bad thing to bring everything up to date, though?

[why?]

If the warranty renewal is really negligable do that if you can, to give you at least 6 months or so for windows 7 to be truly out, then upgrade to that. I agree there is no point in going XP at this point. And be thankful they don't work with the vista nightmare.

Oh, and usually "non mainstream" software, as you put it, is run for decades or so without issues. Upgrades aren't too necessary. My father still runs a few database programs on DOS Machines from the '80's. Now that is old school.

[AmyV]

Either option.... warranty is good because it saves space and also can help with file retrieval and whatnot if there is a catastrophic failure. But spares... always nice!!! Pain to store, but can be switched out in a matter of minutes.

As for Macs... I know they are getting more and more compatible as the years go by, but when it comes to software that is more proprietary or isn't a popular home program, compatibility is a risk. I would stick with systems you know.

And thanks for the welcome, tomato! :smile:

[tomato]

Either option.... warranty is good because it saves space and also can help with file retrieval and whatnot if there is a catastrophic failure. But spares... always nice!!! Pain to store, but can be switched out in a matter of minutes.



That'd be a concern for the servers maybe, but there is no critical data on a workstation (not a whole lot anyway) but yeah, space is also an issue. Office space is expensive around here so dedicating a whole area to be used as a boneyard for computer parts, I DNK...

This isn't a Mac-oriented business, so that's why I said no macs. Nothing personal. :wink::biggrin:

This is fantastic! I just knew you guys would come up with great ideas!
Maybe I ought to talkto you all about the servers, too ;0)
Thank you and please keep them coming, this is REALLY, REALLY helpful!

[yarisitis]

Get a Mac!

lol jk
I have no idea....

sorry :p
but seriously when does the beta testing for win7 end? and can you wait that long to find out if its going to work out?? If not then you have no option than to switch programs and get upgraded comps OR upgrade your old comps and keep apps......
Beta testing for Windows 7 ended a long time ago. Windows 7 is going to be officially released for retail on October 22nd.

I think Windows 7 has a new compatibility feature called "Windows XP Mode" where it will let you use programs that were meant for XP, for example I'm guessing old programs like the one's on your company's workstations that might have issues running on newer OS's. So I think this would pretty much solve your problem with that.

Would the workstations even meet the minimum requirements for Windows 7 in the first place, they sound pretty old, running Windows 2000 and all?


Don't do option 1.

Why don't you get your company to fund you the money to test out Windows 7 for yourself on one machine. That way you won't have to wait and find out the results on tests that might not even be relevant to what your company does, but instead test it yourself to the specific needs of your company's machines. The cost of one Windows 7 license is worth it.

Or you could just snake around it and take one of the workstations home and download Windows 7 illegally and test it for free.



Also, hook it up with a job when I finish school, tomato, k thx. I'd kill for an IT job in San Francisco.

[tomato]

Beta testing for Windows 7 ended a long time ago. Windows 7 is going to be officially released for retail on October 22nd.

I think Windows 7 has a new compatibility feature called "Windows XP Mode" where it will let you use programs that were meant for XP, for example I'm guessing old programs like the one's on your company's workstations that might have issues running on newer OS's. So I think this would pretty much solve your problem with that.

Would the workstations even meet the minimum requirements for Windows 7 in the first place, they sound pretty old, running Windows 2000 and all?


Don't do option 1.

Why don't you get your company to fund you the money to test out Windows 7 for yourself on one machine. That way you won't have to wait and find out the results on tests that might not even be relevant to what your company does, but instead test it yourself to the specific needs of your company's machines. The cost of one Windows 7 license is worth it.
Or you could just snake around it and take one of the workstations home and download Windows 7 illegally and test it for free.

Great idea!!! I'll be the guinea pig! ;)



Also, hook it up with a job when I finish school, tomato, k thx. I'd kill for an IT job in San Francisco.

I wish! Easier said than done around here :rolleyes:
Maybe the economy will turn around, I DNK. A lot of outsourcing in the field, though :frown:

[Astroman]

I can send you (via FTP or pando, or whatever large file transfer option you have) Build 7600 of Windows7, which is the final release that was only available for a few days, along with a patch for the key & activation. Build 7600 is as close to the full release version as you can get, and is good until August 2010. I've been running it on a duel xenon dell workstation and my acer netbook for a couple months now, and it works GREAT.

[brotan1x]

I am sure you have tried to state your case about life cycle management and software licenses with the business. COST is always the issue with any business and right now everyone is tightening their belts.

Keep in mind that Windows 2000 Extended Support is ending on July 13, 2010 (http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean35)

After this what little patch support and driver updates that were being pushed out will cease and you will eventually have to move forward to a new operating system in order keep your network secure. It is possible that Dell will deny your request to extend the warranty based on the operating systems age.


MOVE FORWARD!

Test Windows 7.. Dont' waist your time on Win2k.. XP has little time left.. Vista is more like Millenium Part Duex. (which we all have probable spit on that one a a few times)


Good luck with this gig.. I hope they are paying you well for this.. and if they aren't .. ask for a raise.

[tomato]

I can send you (via FTP or pando, or whatever large file transfer option you have) Build 7600 of Windows7, which is the final release that was only available for a few days, along with a patch for the key & activation. Build 7600 is as close to the full release version as you can get, and is good until August 2010. I've been running it on a duel xenon dell workstation and my acer netbook for a couple months now, and it works GREAT.

Thanks, man! I really appreciate the offer :thumbsup: and if it was just for myself to play with, I'd take you up on it, but I think I'm just gonna wait until the full version comes out (not that long to wait). I don't even have a box that will run Win 7 right now, even my own PC's are just too damn old already.

[127.0.0.1]

go with new machines, windows 7, with built-in XP mode

[127.0.0.1]

I am sure you have tried to state your case about life cycle management and software licenses with the business. COST is always the issue with any business and right now everyone is tightening their belts.

Keep in mind that Windows 2000 Extended Support is ending on July 13, 2010 (http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean35)

After this what little patch support and driver updates that were being pushed out will cease and you will eventually have to move forward to a new operating system in order keep your network secure. It is possible that Dell will deny your request to extend the warranty based on the operating systems age.


MOVE FORWARD!

Test Windows 7.. Dont' waist your time on Win2k.. XP has little time left.. Vista is more like Millenium Part Duex. (which we all have probable spit on that one a a few times)


Good luck with this gig.. I hope they are paying you well for this.. and if they aren't .. ask for a raise.

XP has a lot of time left. years. I work in -a pretty big business- and (my company earns 4 billion every quarter) and many corporations meat and potatos are still on XP and will be for a long while....XP is fine and there is no compelling reason to leave XP. it is the
most stable Microsoft OS right now. wind 7 virtual XP mode, or simply XP sp3 will be fine for a long while

[tomato]

I am sure you have tried to state your case about life cycle management and software licenses with the business. COST is always the issue with any business and right now everyone is tightening their belts.

Keep in mind that Windows 2000 Extended Support is ending on July 13, 2010 (http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean35)

After this what little patch support and driver updates that were being pushed out will cease and you will eventually have to move forward to a new operating system in order keep your network secure. It is possible that Dell will deny your request to extend the warranty based on the operating systems age.


MOVE FORWARD!

Test Windows 7.. Dont' waist your time on Win2k.. XP has little time left.. Vista is more like Millenium Part Duex. (which we all have probable spit on that one a a few times)


Good luck with this gig.. I hope they are paying you well for this.. and if they aren't .. ask for a raise.

Hi, Brotan and thanks very much for the post. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you meant by the first sentence (in bold). But the rest of the comment makes excellent sense to me. I remember Millenium very well :rolleyes::rolleyes:

go with new machines, windows 7, with built-in XP mode

I agree.

You're all being extremely helpful and what you guys are saying makes a lot of sense ! Thanks guys.

Any other ideas, please feel free to keep them coming !

:headbang::thanks:

[brotan1x]

Tomato (and sorry I took so long to respond.. I went to the lake for a few days)

What I meant by...

I am sure you have tried to state your case about life cycle management and software licenses with the business.


In my job we always look at the current needs but always weigh in the future needs. The immediate needs may be satisfied by not spending money but what happens when hardware starts to die and the software you are using is no longer compatible or supported by its manufacturers. It is a very good idea to create a technology life cycle plan to manage the work places needs. This way the computers and softwares don't fall to the wayside when you are concerned with support.

Where I work we make it a point to replace each machine 42 months after the purchase. We also purchase the extended warranty. Once the machine hits that 42 month old date the business unit has to option to replace the machine or wait until it dies. We (IT) make the recommendation the business unit replace the machine within the next 12 months as to not lose production time if it fails. The idea being.. If it dies at a critcal point then you lose production time turns to loss of money.

We keep up with software licenses and have deals with specific companies to upgrade our licenses at a discount price as long as we continue our maintenance agreements. This way we stay up to date with the latest software.

The best thing about it is if you keep good records on this stuff you can plan when you need to purchase new equipment and software then submit it in a yearly budget.

A good result is workplace moral.. Less 'end user' complaints about slow equipment... Less driver and software update concerns. Saving money and time in the long run. Lets not forget production time improvements..

Buying on need is a good way to save money.. Planning the future need is the better way to thrive.

[RUFFSTUFF]

XP forever.

[chongopants]

Well I am most likely the geekiest here, and any microsoft product is bound to have issues. It depends on what you want. Windows is easier for users (not computer savvy), but less stable (a fact, not an arguement). If you want stability I would recommend linux, if you want something in the middle I would recommend Mac (although over priced, they are very stable for a desktop software).

[RUFFSTUFF]

Windows is easier for users (not computer savvy), but less stable (a fact, not an arguement).


That's only because Microsoft employs the end user to do Beta Testing of its Final Product. And by employ I mean the end user pays Microsoft for this privilege. SR1 for Windows 7 should be here in a few months.

[chongopants]

I am on the beta for windows 7, and it is easier to use as I said, but it ultimately will be less stable than mac and especially linux, I haven't rebooted my linux machine in 108 days. How long will your windows machine go before it MAKES you reboot. Not a 108 days... maybe a week or two if your lucky. Plus its WAY overpriced, and its not really easier to use than Ubuntu for example. Its just that people are comfortable funding a company with an inferior product that is overpriced because they have seen it all the years. brainwashed basically. Not to mention all of the VERY shady things microsoft does... but we all ignore that b/c we are used to the logo...

[tomato]

Tomato (and sorry I took so long to respond.. I went to the lake for a few days)

What I meant by...




In my job we always look at the current needs but always weigh in the future needs. The immediate needs may be satisfied by not spending money but what happens when hardware starts to die and the software you are using is no longer compatible or supported by its manufacturers. It is a very good idea to create a technology life cycle plan to manage the work places needs. This way the computers and softwares don't fall to the wayside when you are concerned with support.

Where I work we make it a point to replace each machine 42 months after the purchase. We also purchase the extended warranty. Once the machine hits that 42 month old date the business unit has to option to replace the machine or wait until it dies. We (IT) make the recommendation the business unit replace the machine within the next 12 months as to not lose production time if it fails. The idea being.. If it dies at a critcal point then you lose production time turns to loss of money.

We keep up with software licenses and have deals with specific companies to upgrade our licenses at a discount price as long as we continue our maintenance agreements. This way we stay up to date with the latest software.

The best thing about it is if you keep good records on this stuff you can plan when you need to purchase new equipment and software then submit it in a yearly budget.

A good result is workplace moral.. Less 'end user' complaints about slow equipment... Less driver and software update concerns. Saving money and time in the long run. Lets not forget production time improvements..

Buying on need is a good way to save money.. Planning the future need is the better way to thrive.


Thanks very much for your articulate answer. I appreciate your taking the time to write back.

This company's philosophy is to extract as much as possible of the machines (same with people actually :wink:) until they drop. For that reason, I tend to agree with the posters who suggested to forget about XP and go with Win 7 in a couple of months. The applications *require* windows, perhaps would run on Linux but the users would hate it ...

[tomato]

Well I am most likely the geekiest here, and any microsoft product is bound to have issues. It depends on what you want. Windows is easier for users (not computer savvy), but less stable (a fact, not an arguement). If you want stability I would recommend linux, if you want something in the middle I would recommend Mac (although over priced, they are very stable for a desktop software).

that's an important factor. Gotta give these guys what they want :iono:

[tomato]

XP forever.

Hahaha!! I hear ya though. I have 2 XP machines at home, and I like them just fine.

That's only because Microsoft employs the end user to do Beta Testing of its Final Product. And by employ I mean the end user pays Microsoft for this privilege. SR1 for Windows 7 should be here in a few months.

I would agree with you.


I am on the beta for windows 7, and it is easier to use as I said, but it ultimately will be less stable than mac and especially linux, I haven't rebooted my linux machine in 108 days. How long will your windows machine go before it MAKES you reboot. Not a 108 days... maybe a week or two if your lucky. Plus its WAY overpriced, and its not really easier to use than Ubuntu for example. Its just that people are comfortable funding a company with an inferior product that is overpriced because they have seen it all the years. brainwashed basically. Not to mention all of the VERY shady things microsoft does... but we all ignore that b/c we are used to the logo...

We have 2 Windows server and 2 older ones, non-windows, so yeah, I know exactly what you're saying.

By the way, for the record here, there are different schools of thoughts out there about leaving a machine on or turning it off every night. Some people say it's better for the hard drive to be left running rather than on-and-off all the time. Others say it's better off. I think that, too, is a no-win argument, kind of like macs v. pc, but no need to fight over that! :wmile:

IMO the energy used by a workstation is negligible. There are other ways to save energy: myself, I save energy by hardly ever using the dishwasher, using a broom instead of the vacuum cleaner whenever possible, stuff like that, so that my total consumption of energy stays low. .02 :iono:

No night to fight over it, really (I mean that, by the way) :biggrin:

[AmyV]

By the way, there are different school of thoughts out there about leaving a machine on or turning it off every night. Some people will say it's better for the hard drive to be left running rather than on-and-off all the time. Others say it's better off. I think that, too, is a no-win argument, but no need to fight over that!


Each way has it's benefits. Certain ways are better for certain users. Haha, making it like most things in life. :wink:

Made a decision on what you want to do yet?

[Altitude]

I am on the beta for windows 7, and it is easier to use as I said, but it ultimately will be less stable than mac and especially linux, I haven't rebooted my linux machine in 108 days. How long will your windows machine go before it MAKES you reboot. Not a 108 days... maybe a week or two if your lucky. Plus its WAY overpriced, and its not really easier to use than Ubuntu for example. Its just that people are comfortable funding a company with an inferior product that is overpriced because they have seen it all the years. brainwashed basically. Not to mention all of the VERY shady things microsoft does... but we all ignore that b/c we are used to the logo...

I don't want to get into a pissing match over what a piece of crap Windows is (sure it has problems, but it's not the rickety unstable POS most hardcore non-Windows users make it out to be), but in regards to uptime you're WAY off the mark. The uptimes listed on this site (http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html) are in number of days so that would blow your theory of instability right out the Windows (pun intended.)

[tomato]

Altitude: not rickety unstable as a whole, but some OS's are more stable than others.

[Altitude]

Altitude: not rickety unstable as a whole, but some OS's are more stable than others.

I actually don't find it unstable at all as I've gone months of daily use without a reboot (machine powered on 24/7.) The majority of issues with instability come down to poorly written programs and not the OS itself. Security is an entirely different issue and I'll grant that Windows has had more than its fair share of security issues. MS has had some real disasters along the way too, but once in a while they get it right (NT, 200x, 98, XP and now 7) and I believe in giving credit where it's due.

Now, I'm not an MS fanboy and I was once adamantly against DOS/Windows, but I've been using and writing software for computers for a very, very long time and have heard it all and it gets really old. I've worked for companies that develop products for Unix, Linux and Windows and have seen issues on all of them (again mostly due to poor programming) so I just get tired of hearing people spout off about how shitty MS is. /rant off

[tomato]

Each way has it's benefits. Certain ways are better for certain users. Haha, making it like most things in life. :wink:

Made a decision on what you want to do yet?


Well, the consultants are going to make recommendations soon, so we'll see what happens then. This is just me doing my homework, and getting ready for them. :wink:

I think what I'm going to do even before they come, is get Windows 7 in here and do some testing with our old apps, then we'll know exactly what we need to do.

[tomato]

Altitude: I meant some Windows OS's are more stable than other Window OS's. :smile:

[AmyV]

Well, the consultants are going to make recommendations soon, so we'll see what happens then. This is just me doing my homework, and getting ready for them. :wink:

I think what I'm going to do even before they come, is get Windows 7 in here and do some testing with our old apps, then we'll know exactly what we need to do.

Well, if you can handle all that we here have thrown at you, then you can handle any curve balls the consultants throw your way :smile:

And that sounds like a good idea. Good luck. And do let us know what you find about Windows 7. I am curious as to what people's reactions are going to be!! Like I think it is funny that noone ever likes a new OS. Haha remember when XP came out? Oh there was outrage! But once users got used to the format, XP grew on them. Curious what will happen with 7 :rolleyes: