Get the MOST bass without subwoofer --- ??

[basslover911]

I really dont want to add weight to the car (since I autox and stuff)... and I dont want to remove it everytime I autox (every week)..

SO

Would adding;
6-1/2" speakers up front
6x9 speakers in the rear

AND
Filter (through an aftermarket HU) the rear speakers to only pump out lower frequencies or even wire them to the sub output to produce much lower notes (since I've read that the rear speakers don't do much for stereo listening anyway)

?

[YarisSedan]

I have component speakers in the front. So 6.5 mid drivers in the door and tweeters up on the door sails. And then 6x9 coaxials in the back. I have the speakers wired thorugh a 4 channel amp to give them more power and then front set on HP and rear set to LP so you get more mids and sometimes lows so you get actually pretty good base. Its enough to rattle my rear view mirror down and have to adjust occasionally. Without dynomat though in the doors it does rattle the doors significally. I cant have any bottle water in the holder. Its not earth shaking but is not too bad.

[drew113087]

I have been using the JBL P953 for over a year. They provide excellent bass frequencies with just the HU amp, and superior bass frequencies with a seperate amp. Their current model is the P963; which I have not tested out.

[severous01]

polk is really good, and cheap compared to RF, Kicker, and other name brands. they have one of the lowest frequency responses, and one of the highest sensitivity levels.

[talnlnky]

I really dont want to add weight to the car (since I autox and stuff)... and I dont want to remove it everytime I autox (every week)..

SO

Would adding;
6-1/2" speakers up front
6x9 speakers in the rear

AND
Filter (through an aftermarket HU) the rear speakers to only pump out lower frequencies or even wire them to the sub output to produce much lower notes (since I've read that the rear speakers don't do much for stereo listening anyway)

?
ok... so, there are A LOT of things you can do to get bass without using a subwoofer. Options range from the speakers you choose, using amps, special pscho-acoustic signal processors, and building ported enclosures for the speakers.

the real question isn't about what options you have, but How much time & money you want to spend on your install.... and if you have a clutch pedal to deal with (trust me, it matters alot).


edit: to best answer your question.... your 6.5 + 6x9 idea would do a little.... but really, unless you found speakers designed to play low, you wouldn't get much benefit. Also, without an amplifier, you still won't get much bass.

Bass takes LOTS of power to produce at decent volumes. To explain it to you, the human ear can hear 20hz to 20,000hz (20khz). It's also said to be 10 octaves. Each time you drop an octave (in pitch) you have to use twice as much power to produce the tone at the same volume level. So... 20hz takes 2x power to produce as 40hz, and 20hz takes 4x power than 80hz. and 8x as much as 160hz. It keeps going...

subwoofers generally are set to play 20hz to 80hz. 6.5 component speakers can usually play down to 80hz without too much trouble... if installed with an amplifier. A few 6.5speakers are even designed to play down to 50-60hz (but they are hard to find).

unless you plan on having an amp... they best you will ever have is low amounts of bass, or moderate amounts of very distorted bass.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Subs FTW. There's no replacement for displacement.

[supmet]

There's no replacement for displacement.

The Ferrari F40 begs to differ :D

Seriously though. Quick release sub/amp FTW. Does Dallas really have autox every week? Even between El Toro and Fontana we don't get that many in Southern California.

[talnlnky]

The Ferrari F40 begs to differ :D

Seriously though. Quick release sub/amp FTW. Does Dallas really have autox every week? Even between El Toro and Fontana we don't get that many in Southern California.

any rotary engine car will differ too!

as for speakers... there are some exceptions... mainly, if you change the type of enclosure the speaker is in so that there is more pressure on the cone.... then you don't need much displacement.... Thats why ported & bandpass boxes can get so loud without the speaker moving much.

[sqcomp]

Ahh yes...but the big engines still have more potential. How many rotary or small displacement V8 cylinder engines do you see going 300 MPH in 1/4 mile? The F40 2.9 Liter was also turbocharged as I remember. I'd say the comparison between the small displacement engines and SPL is a little off...fun to talk about though! There is nothing that I can think of off the top that you can do with a smaller engine that you can't do with a bigger one...maybe rev higher? I imagine it would all be an efficiency issue.

It sounds to me like it'd be similar to trying to set an SPL record above 250 Hz...

Taln...explain what the downside is to the vented and bandpass enclosures. Give the rest of the story.

[basslover911]

WAIT

Getting back on track a bit... so it would help if i build a box behind each rear speaker?

[talnlnky]

Ahh yes...but the big engines still have more potential. How many rotary or small displacement V8 cylinder engines do you see going 300 MPH in 1/4 mile? The F40 2.9 Liter was also turbocharged as I remember. I'd say the comparison between the small displacement engines and SPL is a little off...fun to talk about though! There is nothing that I can think of off the top that you can do with a smaller engine that you can't do with a bigger one...maybe rev higher? I imagine it would all be an efficiency issue.

It sounds to me like it'd be similar to trying to set an SPL record above 250 Hz...

Taln...explain what the downside is to the vented and bandpass enclosures. Give the rest of the story.
he was talking displacement of the cone (i.e. the t/s spec vd) not the displacement of the speakers enclosure.

everything has trade offs, big things have trade offs, lil things do too... even medium things... doesn't matter if it's engines or speakers... it's all physics... Something's gotta give, you CAN'T have everything. Pick what is important to you, and cater to that.

[IllusionX]

my 2x dual coil 8" subs can't even play down to 20hz. It goes deep and give good massage to the rear passengers, but will not play down to 20hz....

[sqcomp]

Even with a vented or BP enclosure, I'm wondering how forceful the 20 Hz signal would be coming out of an 8". Maybe 4 of them...

[hatchbackkid82]

turbo is the replacement for displacement:biggrin:
Subs FTW. There's no replacement for displacement.

[RUFFSTUFF]

turbo is the replacement for displacement:biggrin:

Nope... just a substitute.

[sqcomp]

correct, simple, and to the point.

http://i720.photobucket.com/albums/ww203/sqcomp/Roadrunnerengine.jpg

Now, add a supercharger or a turbocharger to this and you'll turn potential that is already at 570+ hp as it sits and put that number to shame. This little engine is maybe at it's halfway mark of potential as a normal breather.

...of course there's more to power adders than just slapping them on...

...and it's just a way to show off my brother's 440...

Off topic!

[ozmdd]

Supmet: We have 6 different clubs that hold autoX events in the Dallas-area, so "yes" you can autocross almost every weekend during the spring and fall. Summer thins-out a bit, but you can still find one within 2 hrs drive most weekends. Not really anything from DEC-FEB, unless you drive south of Houston.

[talnlnky]

Even with a vented or BP enclosure, I'm wondering how forceful the 20 Hz signal would be coming out of an 8". Maybe 4 of them...
that's kind of a moot point. There really isn't any mainstream music that plays 20hz tones at any kind of audible level... When 20hz does show up in a song... its recorded at very low volumes because its basically wasted bandwidth on a CD as nobody (read: .1% of the population) has equipment that will play that low (at any kind of volume).

The few recordings that will play that low at moderate to loud volumes are test tone CD's and Bass Mechanic CD's which are designed to show off a subwoofer setup.

You could get some 8's in a ported box to belt out some authority at 20hz... Not going to break SPL meters or anything, but keep in mind, the human ear sucks at telling the difference between say 120dB & 140dB... once you get past 100dB the body is doing more of the gauging of the volume than the ears are.... Feel the clothes and hairs shake and such. Mine will play done to about 26hz pretty well... My box is tuned to 28hz. If I made a slightly larger box (go from 1.2 up to 1.5-1.75cuft) and tuned it to 20hz it'd belt out 20hz tones, THO, i'd lose total volume on the 30-80hz range. Because i'll never hear a 20hz tone playing on the radio... tuning below 30hz in a car stereo setup isn't recommended usually.... (tho they can be very fun to play with and show off).


SQcomp... if we ever meet up, I'll have to show you what two lil 8's, 150rms, and a lil john CD can do.

[basslover911]

So Im still left with the question... would it be beneficial at all to build little sealed boxes for the rear speakers?

[RUFFSTUFF]

Nope.

[sqcomp]

I'd agree with that last post.

Personally, I enjoy the bigger woofers. I get to settle for dual ID 15"s sealed.

Taln, I really do want to hear the enclosure you're rocking! You know, I've got a couple classical pipe organ pieces that have some magnificent LOW bass passages...

[advocate]

My vote is to get high quality speakers with maybe 1 amp to power them and to just crank the bass setting on your head unit.

You're not likely to get vibration-inducing level bass out of speakers but you can get very adequate bass and even more if you change the equalizer settings during playback.

You're going to have to decide what's best for you: 1) solid speakers w/ amp 2) give up and save your money 3) quick release amp / sub setup

Personally? I started out with a huge audio system and loved it but ended up tearing it out because I started getting into performance. If I were you I'd just save the money and if you haven't already, install high quality aftermarket speakers to replace the Toyota OEM ones. I bought 4x blaupunkt speakers with my audio system and they sound great. Got a hell of a price on em too.

[Musmat]

I have component speakers in the front. So 6.5 mid drivers in the door and tweeters up on the door sails. And then 6x9 coaxials in the back. I have the speakers wired thorugh a 4 channel amp to give them more power and then front set on HP and rear set to LP so you get more mids and sometimes lows so you get actually pretty good base. Its enough to rattle my rear view mirror down and have to adjust occasionally. Without dynomat though in the doors it does rattle the doors significally. I cant have any bottle water in the holder. Its not earth shaking but is not too bad.

[TKO]

You'd be surprised on how the small bazooka tubes sound. And they hardly take up any space.

[Sabretooth]

to add a point, you dont have to keep the subs in the car for autocross, if its a big bulky box that isnt fixed to the car, you can always remove it. wires left behind would weigh a lot less than leaving it in, or building fixed boxes behind speakers, or whatever. Just do it right the first time, allow it to be removed. Then you found your happy medium between both worlds..

Just dont complain about having to remove it.

[talnlnky]

So Im still left with the question... would it be beneficial at all to build little sealed boxes for the rear speakers?

Maybe.... it depends on the Qts/Qes/Qms & Vas of the speaker... By putting the speakers in sealed boxes you will get more volume (and less rattles), but at the same time, you may lose volume in the lower frequencies depending on the specs of the driver & the size of the box. The ultimate would be if you could make ported boxes for those speakers inside the doors. It would be a VERY tricky install though.

If you have an automatic, I'd say build some fiberglass kidpods, throw something like a Tangband neo 6.5" sub in each one, run those pods sealed, and get a 80x2rms amp to power them. then run your normal doors speakers off a 50x2 rms amp and call it good.

[anton]

If space and weight is really an issue, i'd recommend that you do a proper infinite baffle install on your rear dash with a pair of eights a single ten or even reuse the factory 6x9 cutouts for a pair of tang band or CDT 6x9 subs (parts express)

[hatchbackkid82]

But a damn good substitute:burnrubber:

Nope... just a substitute.

[talnlnky]

If space and weight is really an issue, i'd recommend that you do a proper infinite baffle install on your rear dash with a pair of eights a single ten or even reuse the factory 6x9 cutouts for a pair of tang band or CDT 6x9 subs (parts express)

not a bad idea... would have to spend some time stiffening up the rear deck.
I didn't know CDT made dedicated midbass drivers in the 6x9 size... not many companies do that.