Broader unemployment measure at 17.5%

[yaris-me]

Nearly 16 million unemployed. :frown: Obama extends unemployment benefits and gives tax credit to home buyers. :eek:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/business/economy/07econ.html

[JBougie]

...no comment.

[why?]

Obama caused all these people to lose their jobs. Flat out. We would be much better off if All Obama did was waste taxpayers money on dates with his wife and parties, and ignoring the running the country part.

You do nothing, and more people would have their jobs.

And more importantly, government has caused every single issue our economy is currently facing with idiotic regulations created by people who have zero business sense.

Elected government officials need to realize being elected does not immediately mean they have real world experience. They still have none, and probably never will. Stop trying to tell people how to run their lives and businesess.

[kustom play]

yet we keep giving millions of dollars in aid to other countries while ours suffers

save the children in (insert country name here) how about we save our own first then go help others?

[why?]

yet we keep giving millions of dollars in aid to other countries while ours suffers

save the children in (insert country name here) how about we save our own first then go help others?

Amen to that. The amount we give to foriegn countries is downright absurd. There is large amounts of money given to the same countries every single year. If they can't handle whatever they are doing, why the heck should we subsidize them?

You really believe that Obama is to blame for all the job losses? :laugh: He inherited the problem that we are in right now. Now you wanna talk about dates with the wife and parties not to mention vacations you need to look at bush. That guy spent more time out of office than in it.

How many people would have lost their jobs if gm and other auto manufacturers would have folded, including the fallout from manufacturers? What about all the banks, what if all those jobs evaporated and the banks folded up? Now sure the fdic would have stepped in and covered peoples money up to 200,000 or 250,000 dollars but those people would still be out of jobs. There is no perfect answer to fix the problem we are in but to just say it is Obama's fault is ignorant.

This makes no sense. The more that don't have jobs the more people that are not spending, the more people that cannot afford their mortgages, car payments etc, etc. This believe it or not would eventually affect you to. You think the great depression was bad, it would have had nothing on what would have been like had the not government stepped in.


You voted these people in. Maybe not every single one of them but you did none the less. If you did not vote or you do not vote then its hard to criticize how the people run the country. Call, email or mail your congressmen, mayor or governor letters with your concerns. Get involved.
The are trying to help but people are complaining, ranting and raving and just blaming Obama.:laugh: Your representatives, which are elected are the ones voting on these bills, again call them and voice your opinions.

In my opinion republicans believe in trickle down economics and democrats believe in trickle up. Republicans are for the rich and democrats are for the not rich.

Obama did not inherit this problem. Not at all. Under Bush unemployment hovered right around 4%. Obama has more then doubled it.

I have absolutely no problem with the President taking vacations. They are human beings after all. I have massive problems with a President using taxpayer funds to do so. Obama has been throwing massive and absurdly extravagant parties all the time. And he always uses taxpayer money.

GM would not have folded. It would have been bought out by a company that actually knew what it was doing. Gm obviously does not, and hasn't for a long time, if they ever have. Chrysler should have been allowed to fail in the 80's.

The bank crisis was caused by the federal government trying to tell banks how to do things. If Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't exist, there would not have been a banking crisis. The current banking system and its regulations are inherently flawed. It must be fixed to make some sense, or we will have constant banking issues.

Ooh, talking about the Great Depression, thank you for bringing that up. While it might not have been directly caused by governmental rules and regulations (and that is still debatable) it was prolonged because of the great society. The USA was the only country still in a depression before WW2. The government directly caused many of the issues.

Let's talk simple economics. The more the government spends, the more they have to tax. And if they don't tax, the money becomes worth less and less. Our government is going to destroy the dollar if they keep on the path they are going.

If people cannot afford what they have, they should not have bought it. Sorry but the average American consumer has proven they are completely clueless when it comes to finances. I feel no sorrow for people who carry credit card debt that is any significant percent of their annual income.

And anyone with a brain will know it will eventually effect them. Good. The quicker everything bottoms out, the more people learn. The Great Depression taught an entire generation how to be responsible and thrifty with money. The current generation has completely forgotten all of those lessons. That is why we have the current economic problems.

You cannot save everyone. If you try you will end up losing everything. We aren't that far off from some economic problems we have never seen before. The Great Depression will look like nothing if we stay the course we are currently on.

The government has turned what were a few stupid companies into an economic depression. And is now trying to lie about it. And they are trying to solve the problems the exact same way they created the problems.

Government is always the problem. Always. It cannot solve anything, only cause problems. Let individuals fix things, let government beaurocrats make sure individuals are protected.

Oh, The American people are speaking out, and loudly. And thier "elected representatives"(gag) are insulting them. The morons in congress don't represent anyone but themselves anymore.

Obama is to blame. People were being told he would do this a few years before the election. I am not surpised this is happening, it was obvious this is what Obama wanted.

There is sadly very little real difference between Republicans and Democrats nowadays. McCain would have caused the same issues Obama has, he would have just done it a little slower. Democrats are much worse though.

And Bush gave Obama the ammunition he needed with TARP. Just so sad.

The problem is the two party system. Democrats are catering to communists at the moment, and the republican leadership thinks the only way it can get anywhere is to be "democrat lite."

The problem is government beaurocrats and our "elected officials" don't have much, if any, real world experience. Most of these people have never held a real job. Obama is a great example of this. The USA is the very business he has ever run. And people are surprised with the results?

[supmet]

Obama did not inherit this problem. Not at all. Under Bush unemployment hovered right around 4%. Obama has more then doubled it.

Dude.. the least you could do is google "unemployment under bush"

"U.S. unemployment rates under President Bush have reached a 14-year high. According to the Bureau of Labor Statistics, unemployment climbed to 6.5 percent in October, "

http://blogs.payscale.com/salary_report_kris_cowan/2008/11/post.html

Now stop spewing BS and blaming everything on Obama.

oh boy... I just got to the part about fannie mae... you REALLY have no clue, do you.....

[bigbang]

Amen to that. The amount we give to foriegn countries is downright absurd. There is large amounts of money given to the same countries every single year. If they can't handle whatever they are doing, why the heck should we subsidize them?



Obama did not inherit this problem. Not at all. Under Bush unemployment hovered right around 4%. Obama has more then doubled it.

I have absolutely no problem with the President taking vacations. They are human beings after all. I have massive problems with a President using taxpayer funds to do so. Obama has been throwing massive and absurdly extravagant parties all the time. And he always uses taxpayer money.

GM would not have folded. It would have been bought out by a company that actually knew what it was doing. Gm obviously does not, and hasn't for a long time, if they ever have. Chrysler should have been allowed to fail in the 80's.

The bank crisis was caused by the federal government trying to tell banks how to do things. If Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac didn't exist, there would not have been a banking crisis. The current banking system and its regulations are inherently flawed. It must be fixed to make some sense, or we will have constant banking issues.

Ooh, talking about the Great Depression, thank you for bringing that up. While it might not have been directly caused by governmental rules and regulations (and that is still debatable) it was prolonged because of the great society. The USA was the only country still in a depression before WW2. The government directly caused many of the issues.

Let's talk simple economics. The more the government spends, the more they have to tax. And if they don't tax, the money becomes worth less and less. Our government is going to destroy the dollar if they keep on the path they are going.

If people cannot afford what they have, they should not have bought it. Sorry but the average American consumer has proven they are completely clueless when it comes to finances. I feel no sorrow for people who carry credit card debt that is any significant percent of their annual income.

And anyone with a brain will know it will eventually effect them. Good. The quicker everything bottoms out, the more people learn. The Great Depression taught an entire generation how to be responsible and thrifty with money. The current generation has completely forgotten all of those lessons. That is why we have the current economic problems.

You cannot save everyone. If you try you will end up losing everything. We aren't that far off from some economic problems we have never seen before. The Great Depression will look like nothing if we stay the course we are currently on.

The government has turned what were a few stupid companies into an economic depression. And is now trying to lie about it. And they are trying to solve the problems the exact same way they created the problems.

Government is always the problem. Always. It cannot solve anything, only cause problems. Let individuals fix things, let government beaurocrats make sure individuals are protected.

Oh, The American people are speaking out, and loudly. And thier "elected representatives"(gag) are insulting them. The morons in congress don't represent anyone but themselves anymore.

Obama is to blame. People were being told he would do this a few years before the election. I am not surpised this is happening, it was obvious this is what Obama wanted.

There is sadly very little real difference between Republicans and Democrats nowadays. McCain would have caused the same issues Obama has, he would have just done it a little slower. Democrats are much worse though.

And Bush gave Obama the ammunition he needed with TARP. Just so sad.

The problem is the two party system. Democrats are catering to communists at the moment, and the republican leadership thinks the only way it can get anywhere is to be "democrat lite."

The problem is government beaurocrats and our "elected officials" don't have much, if any, real world experience. Most of these people have never held a real job. Obama is a great example of this. The USA is the very business he has ever run. And people are surprised with the results?
you need to read more

[Altitude]

Not to crap on this parade, but there's a social group on YW for this type of discussion. See here. (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/group.php?groupid=29)

[TLyttle]

I'm sure that isn't the only flaw in why?'s analysis here. When one pulls a pin on a grenade, it doesn't go off right away; Bush left a few grenades with the pins pulled. Obama was set up, and much of what he faces goes back some time.

In the first place, a previous administration deregulated a great deal of the US, transportation for instance, starting races to the bottom, trucking being the obvious example: "I can do that delivery cheaper!", and the next thing one knows, they are rewriting regulations to keep these poor guys from driving 20 hours at a time just to make a meager living. Safety of the trucks dropped, due to poor maintenance, and many people die because of deregulation. Not Obama's fault.

Then they dropped much of the trade regulations, and most low-to-middle class jobs headed overseas. A carpetmaker who made $12/hr in the US is being paid $3/day, and Wally World is flogging them to us with only one sales line: the product is cheaper here. Not Obama's fault; the WalMartians are the culprits.

Then they started two wars: many empires have done this just before they collapsed, and the US hasn't learned the lesson. One less war would allow huge changes in the education system which is under severe stress; two less wars would allow tax dollars for a proper health care system. The rest of the world is watching the US head for failure, and the average American is still yelling that Obama isn't doing his job. Man, how sad is that? And what can Obama do to stop it?

And GM has been building rubbish for decades. The word is that it is too big to fail, but it isn't. The loss of jobs is important, but these guys will move on, hopefully to some other auto manufacturing facility that isn't so bloated. If anyone thinks Government has too much bureaucracy (it has), they should check how many productive and non-productive employees work at GM. Paper pushers and CEOs produce no cars, workers do. Once I worked for a company where there were 12 employees, and only 2 of us actually produced product; guess how long it lasted? So why blame Obama?

Can I recommend some objective research here? I suggest that why? is spending too much time watching Rush Limbaugh...

[Bob Dog]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3683270/ns/business-stocks_and_economy/

[Altitude]

Is this really bothering you altitude? We are not flaming anyone, we are having a discussion. If you do not want to read please don't. Not trying to be mean.:thumbup:

Not bothering me at all, just letting you all know there's been a section set up specifically for this type of discussion.

[why?]

Not to crap on this parade, but there's a social group on YW for this type of discussion. See here. (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/group.php?groupid=29)

I didn't know that. the social groups seem kind of hidden. lol, ok maybe not. I'm joining.

[H3LlIoN]

Everyone in this thread is wrong. And everyone in this thread is right.

We need to stop saying that one president is good and one is bad and realize that they are all bad. There is no such thing as a decent politician at any level past local, and even then those can be corrupt too. Perhaps we should take the time to realize that our government has grown far from the ideal that it started as and, as such, needs to be torn down and rebuilt anew. It's no wonder politicians ignore the constitution; they ignore EVERYTHING this nation was built on. And you still think US is greatest country in world? HAH! We just too stupid to unite and expect better than what we have become.

Here is a quick anecdote that describes how we have gotten to this point, and why we have let it get this far:

"If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will of course frantically try to clamber out. But if you place it gently in a pot of tepid water and turn the heat on low, it will float there quite placidly. As the water gradually heats up, the frog will sink into a tranquil stupor, exactly like one of us in a hot bath, and before long, with a smile on its face, it will unresistingly allow itself to be boiled to death." - Daniel Quinn

This is why we fought against an immediate communist overthrow during the cold war, but have allowed ourselves to slowly accept some of the very same principles outlined by foreign political stance. Somewhere along the lines, the politicians realized this. Problem is, we never did.

Am I American? Yes. Did I vote for Obama? No. Was McCain a better candidate? He was merely the lesser of what I conceived as two evils.

Honestly...Obama was the inevitable choice.

We have been moving towards this for a hundred years. I'm not pissed about it. I'm going to sit back and laugh my happy ass off as I watch the rest of these idiots claw and fight their way to the top of this shitstack that this country has become, all the while waiting for the moment when the ship slips slowly beneath the waves, leaving only a final puff of air as it's last ditch effort in a futile struggle against inevitability.

[tomato]

I didn't know that. the social groups seem kind of hidden. lol, ok maybe not. I'm joining.

I agree with you, they are, kinda.

The political threads tend to get more opinionated / inflammatory type of comments than the average thread on here so we had to move the party to a social group instead, which is less visible but also less moderated than the rest of the forum.

[yaris-me]

Congress dictate national policies. Congress decides on war. Congress dictate foreign policies. Congress makes the treaties. Congress makes the budget and the deficit. Congress makes the laws. The president carries out the will of Congress (the people).

[H3LlIoN]

Congress (the people).

:laughabove:

[why?]

Everyone in this thread is wrong. And everyone in this thread is right.

We need to stop saying that one president is good and one is bad and realize that they are all bad. There is no such thing as a decent politician at any level past local, and even then those can be corrupt too. Perhaps we should take the time to realize that our government has grown far from the ideal that it started as and, as such, needs to be torn down and rebuilt anew. It's no wonder politicians ignore the constitution; they ignore EVERYTHING this nation was built on. And you still think US is greatest country in world? HAH! We just too stupid to unite and expect better than what we have become.

Here is a quick anecdote that describes how we have gotten to this point, and why we have let it get this far:

"If you drop a frog in a pot of boiling water, it will of course frantically try to clamber out. But if you place it gently in a pot of tepid water and turn the heat on low, it will float there quite placidly. As the water gradually heats up, the frog will sink into a tranquil stupor, exactly like one of us in a hot bath, and before long, with a smile on its face, it will unresistingly allow itself to be boiled to death." - Daniel Quinn

This is why we fought against an immediate communist overthrow during the cold war, but have allowed ourselves to slowly accept some of the very same principles outlined by foreign political stance. Somewhere along the lines, the politicians realized this. Problem is, we never did.

Am I American? Yes. Did I vote for Obama? No. Was McCain a better candidate? He was merely the lesser of what I conceived as two evils.

Honestly...Obama was the inevitable choice.

We have been moving towards this for a hundred years. I'm not pissed about it. I'm going to sit back and laugh my happy ass off as I watch the rest of these idiots claw and fight their way to the top of this shitstack that this country has become, all the while waiting for the moment when the ship slips slowly beneath the waves, leaving only a final puff of air as it's last ditch effort in a futile struggle against inevitability.

I agree with most of what you said, with a strong exception of the last part. Nothing is inevitable. We can beat them.

[H3LlIoN]

Ah, the idealist. You are so quick to let GM swallow itself (which I agree with, for the record) but you think that you can save an entire country by any means other than self destruction? At the most, you will only be able to prolong the implosion only to find yourself broken, crushed under the weight of modern society. Save your energy; we'll need strong souls to rebuild.

[why?]

I'm not an idealist at all, just a realist. I know what can cure our ills, as do you. I know how it can be fixed.

Whether or not anyone has the guts to do it is the real question. I'd love to try, I know it would be quite fun and entertaining.

[H3LlIoN]

Indeed, I prefer efficiency, which is why I've decided that self destruction is the most effective.

I'd love to hear what you have in mind though...

[why?]

Self destruction would be the fastest, and probably the easiest. But that is no fun. I'd like to try the old fashioned method first. I mean this country does have a few decent things worth saving. I'd like to do it the same way these people have tried to undo everything, I'd just do it faster.

Get enough people in the congress that actually are willing to do things unconventionally, and start doing them. Heck, I'd even volunteer to go into there and start clearing. Eww though, maybe I'm not so sure I'd really want to be the one to do it, but someone needs to.

[H3LlIoN]

Politics is full of assholes that thought "Gee, I know how to fix things."

[why?]

Politics is full of assholes that thought "Gee, I know how to fix things."

I disagree. Politics is full of assholes that think about nothing except getting lots of political power and money. DC is basically one gigantic party and everyone wants to be the one that everyone else wants to see.

But that is what happens when you have full time lawmakers.

[Bob Dog]

Any one who is adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.

[H3LlIoN]

As far as the first part, at some point, they were idealist with grand ideas of a functional and proper gov't, whatever that may be.


Regarding this:
that is what happens when you have full time lawmakers.

I agree. Make that shit part time, and voluntary. See how many people show up to the party when it's on their own time/tab. My guess is we'd progress a lot farther if congress lost the power to vote on their own salaries...

Just fyi, when this all started, congress was not salaried, and only got $6 dollars a day for when they were in session. With inflation, that would add up to $137.01 in today's money.

The average in session time for congress in the 90's was 278, and it's been declining since then. Using today's inflated number would net congress $38,088.78. Adjusted for annual, this would calculate to $50,008.65 annual salary, which is no small number, considering 2007 median income for single male over 45 is $45,113.

Now, instead of adjusting income based on inflation, congress opted instead to use an income calculator called a "Cost of living" increase, which has swelled to $174,000 for normal congressional positions, $193,400 for party leader status, and $223,000 for speaker position. Using the $174,000, that breaks down to $476 a day! On top of that, they get fed employee pensions, and countless other benefits.

Also, keep in mind that this does not factor in weekends and holidays. If you take 2009, factor out weekends and the 5 major holidays (all of which congress rarely works) you get 261 actual workdays. That breaks down to $666.66 a day, proving once and for all that congress is the devil. :-P No joke, the calculation came out that way. Anyway, that would be $854 a day for speaker.

And people wonder why our gov't is broken...

[H3LlIoN]

Just to throw out another number, there are 535 members of congress, which means we are paying 535 people a rough total of 94 MILLION dollars A YEAR to tell us what we can and can't do...

[2+2]

Any one who is as adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.

You think anyone has time to listen to someone who has thought the problems through and can offer contemplative insight into the problem from various angles while holding a rearview mirror to history in case it's repeating or echoing itself at the moment?

Naw man, Glenn Beck is in charge. Sloganeering and lowest common denominator populist drivel rule the day. Sit back and enjoy a piece of history being made. At least people like you and I will gain an understanding of how easy it was to incite the masses during a few other unfortunate chapters in human history. Government is bad. Government is too big. Government tries to run our lives. Government officials are overpaid. Taxes are too high. Your ideas are too socialist/capitalist/elitist/liberal/conversative (whatever suits the day).

I've never seen anything like this. People talking like if only we had no government everything would be alright. The name for that is anarchy and anarchy is as far from alright as you can get.

One last thing. Some people lately are citing recent government failures as proof that government is the problem and not the solution. We're coming off of 28 years of deregulation and the castrating of every government agency that could have helped us avoid the great recession. You can't cut funding for something and then use the reduced capability of that entity as an argument for further cuts in funding. It's a "strange loop". It's illogical. It's populist drivel.

[why?]

Any one who is adamnantly sure of themself utterly lacks the depth of consideration necessary to have any truly meaningful insight into a problem.

Exactly! And that is why we need to get these people out. They are so assured they are right that God Himself probably couldn't convince them they could be wrong.

You think anyone has time to listen to someone who has thought the problems through and can offer contemplative insight into the problem from various angles while holding a rearview mirror to history in case it's repeating or echoing itself at the moment?

Naw man, Glenn Beck is in charge. Sloganeering and lowest common denominator populist drivel rule the day. Sit back and enjoy a piece of history being made. At least people like you and I will gain an understanding of how easy it was to incite the masses during a few other unfortunate chapters in human history.
I've never seen anything like this. People talking like if only we had no government everything would be alright. The name for that is anarchy and anarchy is as far from alright as you can get.

One last thing. Some people lately are citing recent government failures as proof that government is the problem and not the solution. We're coming off of 28 years of deregulation and the castrating of every government agency that could have helped us avoid the great recession. You can't cut funding for something and then use the reduced capability of that entity as an argument for further cuts in funding. It's a "strange loop". It's illogical. It's populist drivel.

Show me anyone in congress willing to listen. Of course there aren't any. They don't listen to anyone, except the people who are funding their campaigns, and those people have such a blatant socialist agenda it should be obvious to anyone. That is not how our government is suppose to work.

You think Glenn Beck is populist? Try Obama, he did it so well he didn't have to tell anyone anything. The entire left wing movement is all about convincing people to do anything without saying what they really want them to do.

Anarchy is bad. However government is evil. It cannot be anything but evil. Our founding fathers knew this, and anyone who takes a good look at history should figure that out as well. Government cannot solve anything.

Castrating the government!!! I wish. Every year the budget grows exponentially. I don't see any castration going on, just massive Jabba the Hutt style growth. No government agency could've helped us avoid the coming depression. They could've and should've cut them all and cut the rules and regulations that make zero common sense. Less government will grow the economy, more will always destroy it.

When the Budget gets back to under $1 trillion, then we can think about calling it castration. Until then, using such language is a joke.

No large high tax government has ever stood the test of time. Nor will it.

[TLyttle]

Maybe, but some high-tax countries are doing just fine, thank you. Canadians pay 50% of their income in taxes, some European countries considerably more. Those countries have universal health care (oooh!!! Communism!!!), multi-party systems, fair wage and hiring legislation, all the stuff that allows the citizens to survive as a country. Few are in the trouble that the US is in today.

ONe thing is missed here: everyone thinks that the politicians are in control of the government, and that is a lie. The bureaucracy is in control, unelected and all-powerful, and they dictate to the politicians what will work and what won't. Too many times I have seen a politician try to get something done that the will cost the bureaucrats a little bit of power, and two things happen: the politician is accused of some scandalous activity, and is turfed out, and the idea is seen as destructive. Just look at the health care bill for proof. The HMOs etc aren't talking to the politicians, they are talking (and bribing) the upper level bureaucracy to preserve the "way things are done", ie their own golden egg layer. The fact that the US has the most expensive health care system and the 27th-best system is all you need to know!

[H3LlIoN]

The fact that the US has the most expensive health care system and the 27th-best system is all you need to know!

Actually, you should also know that it's the most expensive because your infallible politicians bloat healthcare bills (or any bill, for that matter) with countless other funding for god knows what. As I've pointed out before, the underlying problem is that we have become comfortable in our lifestyles to the point where we expect gov't to provide things like minimum wage, and cost of living increases, and welfare, and disability, and MEDICARE.

Get up. Go to work. Get paid. And pay your f&#*ing bills. STOP buying shit you can't afford, and STOP expecting me to pay taxes to bail your deadbeat a$$ out.

And the "you" in that does not literally mean you, I'm merely speaking to the masses.

[Bob Dog]

You would actually trust your fate to unregulated corporations ? The government is bloated, and full blown socialism is intolerably oppressive, but the notion that unregulated capitalism will solve our problems is just down right childish. You, I and the rest of the citizenry of this and any other nation are nothing more to the big money capitalist than meat on two legs. We are a resource to be used consumed and thrown away. The real truth of the matter is that we used to live in a national economy and we are now living in an international economy. We have chosen the purchase of consumer goods over investing in the means of production. The factories have sailed overseas and with them the jobs that we had grown to feel that we were eternally entitled to. You and I my friend are competing with a person who is delighted to work for a bag of rice, some shoes and clothes and a plastic tarp to keep the rain out of the cardboard shack. Guess which reource the big money capitlaist is going to hire.

[H3LlIoN]

The factories have sailed overseas and with them the jobs that we had grown to feel that we were eternally entitled to. You and I my friend are competing with a person who is delighted to work for a bag of rice some shoes and clothes and a plastic tarp to keep the rain out of the cardboard shack.


Not to mention it costs significantly more to export goods from the US than it does to import goods from outside.