Should I realign?

[fmicle]

I have just installed the Tokico blues and Progress springs, which I believe dropped the car by 1.4 inches front and back. I have a couple of questions:

1. Should I get a re-alignment?
2. AFAIK, we can only adjust the front alignment on the hatchback, correct?

[schleppy]

As a general rule of thumb you should always re-align the car after suspension modifications.

[fmicle]

Yeah, that's what I thought anyway, but I was hoping to learn more along the way :smile: I wonder if I should just bring the car to a shop and let them do whatever, or should I tell them what to do? I only know that I could safely go 1 degree negative camber without tire wear in the front, but that's where my knowledge ends. So I was hoping for more feedback, so I can learn something :wink:
The Yaris is my daily driver, so the main focus is on just having a little fun while driving around. I take longer trips from time to time, weekend getaways, visiting relatives, etc so I'm looking for a decent compromise.

[Altitude]

There are lots of posts here about this. Some people have had the alignment, others not. Some say it depends on the amount of drop you get, others say you should always do it. I guess the only way to know for sure is to take it to a shop and have it checked and done if it's needed.

I've got a set of TRD springs to put on and I don't plan on doing the alignment unless I notice a problem.

[fmicle]

But by the time you notice, say, uneven tire wear, wouldn't it be too late? For the tires anyway? :smile:

[Altitude]

But by the time you notice, say, uneven tire wear, wouldn't it be too late? For the tires anyway? :smile:

Yes it would, but I really hate taking my car to any shop for service unless there is a known problem that I can't fix myself. Plus, the members that have installed TRD springs and didn't get an alignment don't report any problems so I'm willing to take that chance.

[fmicle]

I fully understand, I don't feel compelled to take it to the shop either, the car feels just fine :smile: But I guess I'll do it...

[PHXDEMON]

Yes, always realign after you drop it. Guy I bought my Yaris from did a drop with no aligment. 6 months after owning it I was shelling out 400 bucks for 2 new front tires. :cry:

[PHXDEMON]

But by the time you notice, say, uneven tire wear, wouldn't it be too late? For the tires anyway? :smile:

It was for me. My car has a lip kit and df 210s so it is hard to see the inner wall of the tire. Went to change the oil and saw the inner wall of my driver front tire was down to teh steel belt :eek:

[Loren]

At the very least, you should check and adjust the front toe. It WILL be off if you've lowered the car that much.

[YarisSedan]

I never got a alignment till a year after i dropped my car on trd springs. Didnt notice any real ill effects or tire wear. I did however notice a difference in handling and cornering after i had the alignment finally done. If i could do it over again i would have just got the alignment done in the first place.

[thebarber]

wait a week for the springs to settle...then get an alignment...

[advocate]

wait a week for the springs to settle...then get an alignment...

^^

Just got mine back from the alignment shop fmicle. My steering wheel ended up becoming crooked.

And just as Loren predicted, the mechanic told me my toe was off.

[fmicle]

Alright, alright, it's on the list for Saturday :wink:

[MUSKOKA800]

Yes it would, but I really hate taking my car to any shop for service unless there is a known problem that I can't fix myself. Plus, the members that have installed TRD springs and didn't get an alignment don't report any problems so I'm willing to take that chance.

My sedan required alignment corrections after installing TRD suspension. That said, it could have been slightly off from the factory although the tires looked fine when the suspension was upgraded (at ~12,000 kilometers). Now at close to 60,000 kilometers and the stock rubber is still wearing evenly albeit nearly done. Can't wait to get some sticky sneakers on there next year. Winter boots in play now.

[thebarber]

My sedan required alignment corrections after installing TRD suspension. That said, it could have been slightly off from the factory although the tires looked fine when the suspension was upgraded (at ~12,000 kilometers). Now at close to 60,000 kilometers and the stock rubber is still wearing evenly albeit nearly done. Can't wait to get some sticky sneakers on there next year. Winter boots in play now.

falken RT615's are on uber sale right now....but really only if you know someone in the states.....$50 instant rebate on discount tire PLUS $80 mail-in if you're in the US

either way, they're about 250 w/ free shipping in the lower 48 for 195-60-14's ;)

[MUSKOKA800]

falken RT615's are on uber sale right now....but really only if you know someone in the states.....$50 instant rebate on discount tire PLUS $80 mail-in if you're in the US

either way, they're about 250 w/ free shipping in the lower 48 for 195-60-14's ;)

I'll wait until late winter/spring to start shopping and only buy from US if the brand offers a NA wide warranty (Michelin, Goodyear do, Bridgestone, Yokohama don't). Having a snowmobile buddy whose business is in Lewiston NY (5 minites from the border) has been handy for US online shopping (eBay etc). He uses a local tire shop who order from TireRack.

[ddongbap]

When I slammed my car and added camber to about three degrees, that gave me around a degree and a half of toe in. One and a half set of tires later, I then decided to get an alignment.

[ozmdd]

I have just installed the Tokico blues and Progress springs, which I believe dropped the car by 1.4 inches front and back. I have a couple of questions:

1. Should I get a re-alignment?
2. AFAIK, we can only adjust the front alignment on the hatchback, correct?

YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You are shredding your tires if you don't realign. notice all the tire dust on your back end?

[fmicle]

As Loren said, the toe was "in the red" on both wheels in the front. The rear axle was all "green". The front camber, although in the green, is not the same on both sides, so I will be correcting that once I get my camber kit from Garm.

The mechanic let me stick around while he was aligning it and at some point he let me sit in the car and it was interesting to see how the numbers change with me in the driver's seat. It's funny because the numbers are not equal left and right, but once I got in, they got much closer.

Also, the camber was within the OEM specs (green on the alignment computer) when the car was empty, but went red on both sides with me sitting in. Which kinda makes sense, if you add more weight, the suspension will flex more, so the camber will increase (or decrease, mathematically speaking, as in going from -0.5 to -1.0).

[Loren]

You'll need to reset your toe after you make any front camber change. It's the camber change that comes from lowering the car that causes the toe to go off in the first place.

[fmicle]

You'll need to reset your toe after you make any front camber change. It's the camber change that comes from lowering the car that causes the toe to go off in the first place.

Thanks for that piece of advice, I'll keep that in mind when I go back to get the camber adjusted, so that they redo the toe as well...

[ozmdd]

A good alignment shop generally allows the driver to sit in the car so that the alignment will be correct when you drive it. As you saw, it really does make a difference, especially on a light car. Miata guys swear by it. BTW - I'm running -2.5 degrees camber in the front and tire wear is minimal/not noticeable, but the handling is significantly better than the -1.5 degrees I started with when I added the camber bolts.

[Loren]

A Yaris ain't a Miata. (I owned a Miata for 6 years) A Miata has a fully adjustable suspension, front and rear camber and toe, front caster, all readily adjustable. (but every adjustment effects every other adjustment, so it's hard to get things "right" without precise measurement and a lot of experience) And it's a very balanced lightweight sportscar, so a good alignment makes a HUGE difference.

Alignment on the Yaris makes a big difference, too... but it's not nearly as finicky or difficult to get right. The rear alignment on the Yaris is essentially non-adjustable unless you get into shims, even then it's not an exact science... you just get it "close enough". The front alignment consists of just camber and toe. Front camber is just fine if you set it "close enough", within a couple tenths of a degree from left to right is fine. Front toe is super-easy to adjust and very easy to get right, even in your driveway.

What I'm saying is... for the cost of an alignment, you can buy all the tools you need to do a garage alignment on your Yaris that will be more than sufficient. Unlike a Miata, which is VERY easy to screw up, it's very easy to align the front camber and toe on your Yaris. If you've got enough understanding of what the parameters mean and how they are adjusted, just DO it.

Google "DIY alignment" for tips on how to measure things. I've been doing basic FWD car alignments in my driveway for several years with nothing more than a 2-foot level and a measuring tape. There's really nothing to it.

[fmicle]

Loren, why don't you write a DIY on this subject? :smile: I for sure would like to know more about this and would definitely like try to do my own alignment in my garage...

I'll be the first to read it. Camber kit from Garm is on its way and I'd rather learn how to do it myself than go back to the shop... I have no idea how to measure things right though...

[Loren]

Not really interested in writing another detailed how-to. Besides, like I've said many times before, Google is your friend.

Just found this on YouTube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZoL1gaWedA

Didn't watch the whole thing, and he goes through a lot of setup that I don't do (most of the first video) just because I'm lazy and I think my garage floor is "close enough" to level. But, he seems to know what he's doing and thoroughly walks you through a low-tech garage alignment.

Watch both parts of that video, it will tell you a lot. There are also some good articles out there on DIY alignment, look 'em up and educate yourself!

[fmicle]

Bing is my friend :wink:, but I got your point and actually studied quite a lot tonight. I'm getting a $30 camber gauge, just because gadgets are cool :smile:, but other than that I'll probably be doing the toe alignment using the string setup. Found some good articles as well and learned a lot. Thank you for the inspiration! :thumbsup:

[Loren]

Unless you're doing a full four-wheel alignment (which you can't really do on a Yaris unless you plan to do some shimming in the rear), stringing is a waste of time. Just measure your front toe from the tire treads to get "total toe", and adjust as necessary to center the steering wheel. Stringing the car is used to ensure that the "thrust angle" is in line with the center of the car, but you really can't adjust that without being able to adjust the rear toe.

Ugh, please don't use Bing. The world doesn't need another search engine, and especially not one that's run by Microsoft, and especially not one with such annoying TV commercials.

[ozmdd]

I agree with Loren that alignment on the Yaris is pretty simple and something that a lot of shade-tree mechanics can handle. It is definitely a "measure twice, then measure again" thing, since you can mess-up tires over time if it isn't right, and a major mistake could compromise handling in high-speed situations and emergency manuevers.

The biggest advantages to an alignment shop is the knowledge of the tech and the precision of the measurements. I invest in it since I track the car and want it to be as exact as possible, but I have done alignments at home too, with fine results, and I'm no expert.

[fmicle]

But how can I measure from one tire thread to another, since I can't get a straight line from one tire to the other, cause the engine is in the way :iono:

Is the toe affected by the load on the springs and shocks? Is it ok to measure/adjust toe while the car is jacked? I thought I should do all the measurement with the car on the floor and in that case I don't know how to get that straight line for measuring, unless I measure close to the bottom... even though for best results I should measure in line with the center bore, right? My tires have a nice center groove, so it would be really easy to measure, don't need to spray and draw lines and what not, so I'd like to use that if I can, but how?

Off topic: oh and by the way, I'll take Microsoft over Google any day of the week... Google today is nothing more than a brand, none of their products ever get to be better than just beta quality and the Google culture is arrogance. I read an article a few months ago and the author had a funny metaphor: Microsoft is the new IBM and Google is the new Microsoft :smile:

[Loren]

All alignment measurements need to be done with the car on the ground and the suspension settled. (if you just jack the car up and set it down, you won't get accurate measurements, push it up and down the driveway or better yet drive it around the block to settle the suspension)

If your goal is zero toe or very near it (as it should be), you don't need to measure at exactly 90 degrees on the tire. Measure as high up as you can get without interference on both the front and back of the tire. If the difference is zero, you have zero toe. If the difference is 1/8"... well, you don't have "exactly" 1/16" of toe per side, but it's a good approximation. Shoot for somewhere between zero and 1/16" of toe in and you'll be fine. As long as you're not running 1/4" or more of toe, you won't have wear issues.

Pro-tip: Ramps are very handy for doing final toe adjustments. Get the measurement you want, drive it to check that the steering wheel is centered, put it up on ramps, adjust as necessary, drive it again, measure it again, put it back on ramps, adjust it again, etc.

[Loren]

The biggest advantages to an alignment shop is the knowledge of the tech and the precision of the measurements. I invest in it since I track the car and want it to be as exact as possible
You have to find an alignment shop AND a tech that you can trust. Just having the equipment (even if it is "the best" equipment) is of no use if it is not calibrated properly and the tech doesn't know how to use it or how to properly align your car. Sadly, most tire shops just have trained monkeys doing alignments who don't know how to do anything that the machine doesn't tell them to. ("everything is in the green, must be good!") Tell them you want more camber than specified and they freak out. Ask them a question about performance alignment and they won't have a clue what the correct answer is. (though they might try to make something up)

If you're paying for an alignment, a good alignment tech that understands performance alignment is worth every penny it costs. And I'd trust an alignment done by that tech using string and a level more than I would one done by a clueless* tech with the latest laser alignment rig.

* Special note here: A tech can have 20-30 years working alignments and STILL not have a clue about performance alignments, they will know street alignments on typical passenger cars and how to solve tire wear issues and drivability problems, but not how to make a car HANDLE better.

/end rant :biggrin:

[fmicle]

Tell them you want more camber than specified and they freak out.

Yep, I can confirm... I called Pepboys last week and asked if they could do what I wanted (namely -1 degree front camber). The reponse was, no sir, we can only do what's in the computer, based on your car's factory specs.

So I called a Big-O shop nearby and they said, as long as you tell the guy what you want, he can do it. He let me hang around and watch him adjust the toe, but when I asked about -1 degree front camber he shook his head (green ends at -0.7 degrees on the computer) and he said, no sir, you will wear the tires unevenly, I can do -0.5 on both sides. Still, better than Pepboys.

DIY FTW :headbang:

[fmicle]

Another question I wonder about is, if I only measure tire to tire, how can I make sure that the tires are actually pointing straight forward with respect to the wheel position? I mean, I could have zero toe, but maybe both tires are pointing 1 degree left or right, which I couldn't tell with the naked eye. I think if I measure tire to tire I wouldn't catch that. But then, it probably doesn't really matter, since the steering wheel will only be off by some fraction of a degree?

[ozmdd]

This has probably been mentioned on the forum before, but most tire shops don't know how to or won't do performance alignment that is "out of spec." you will have the best luck talking to track guys or autocrossers (or going on their forums) to find out who will do such alignments and knows what they are doing. That's how I found mine, and he's awesome.
He actually works at an NTB, but has a cool mananger who recognizes the value of loyal customers who repeatedly buy race tires from him and allows the tech to spend 45 minutes to an hour doing an alignment. Most NTB's won't allow this, I discovered. I know of about 50 people who drive from all over DFW to buy at this one store as a result, so people will definitley tell you where to go if you ask around.

Don't forget to tip if you do find a gem like this.

Still - don't be afraid to try a home alignment as Loren suggested; you'll be suprised at what you can accomplish. TIP - mark all the bolts with paint pen before you adjust, so you can always put it back if something goes awry.

[Loren]

Another question I wonder about is, if I only measure tire to tire, how can I make sure that the tires are actually pointing straight forward with respect to the wheel position? I mean, I could have zero toe, but maybe both tires are pointing 1 degree left or right, which I couldn't tell with the naked eye. I think if I measure tire to tire I wouldn't catch that. But then, it probably doesn't really matter, since the steering wheel will only be off by some fraction of a degree?

That's why you test drive after you adjust toe. If the steering wheel is off-center, you adjust each side accordingly to bring it back to center. Tedious, but doable.

You know when they align your car on a rack, all they do is center the steering wheel by eye and prop a special tool between the seat and the wheel to hold it there, right? That part of an alignment is as low-tech as it gets. (which is why it's not uncommon to have to bring a car back after an alignment due to the steering wheel being slightly off-center.

[Lafiro]

I just switched yesterday from my rims (weighed in at 39 pounds), to my stock (weighed in at 30-31pounds).
I noticed my steering wheel is now turned just a bit to the right, yet the car drives straight, so what gives with the slight difference in the wheel?

I also noticed with my shitty roads that I no longer feel the bumps as much as my 205-45/17. But my shocks are dead!

[Loren]

Check your tire pressures. Only thing that might cause that just from changing wheels/tires would be a mismatch in front tire pressures.

[Lafiro]

Could be, because when I put them on this year, one of the front tires was very low, and honestly it was cold when I put air in all of them, so im pretty sure its not even all the way around either. THanks for the heads up, I will check that in the morning.

[fmicle]

So, I just tested my garage for levelness and left-right are at the same level both front and back, but the garage itself seems to have a slpe built-in so the front axle is about 3/4" higher than the rear. Would that significantly change the measurements for alignment if I didn't use, say, tiles, to compensate for the difference?

[Loren]

For checking camber, the front/rear slant shouldn't matter. If you were checking caster (which involves taking camber measurements with the wheels turned), it would.

[advocate]

I just switched yesterday from my rims (weighed in at 39 pounds), to my stock (weighed in at 30-31pounds).
I noticed my steering wheel is now turned just a bit to the right, yet the car drives straight, so what gives with the slight difference in the wheel?

I also noticed with my shitty roads that I no longer feel the bumps as much as my 205-45/17. But my shocks are dead!

After lowering my wheel was also crooked permanently. Car still drove straight though. An alignment fixed the problem.

[whoguy]

When I got my alignment done, I asked for -1"20' camber on the fronts, but the Technician said that is no good because the road is cambered, so having equal camber on both wheels causes the car to track crooked due to the slanting road surface. He recommended 30' off the driver side to compensate. I took his recommendation and it seems to be true.

[fmicle]

30' plus or minus compared to the passenger side?

[Loren]

The road crown camber compensation bit is BS. Does EVERY lane you drive on have a crown? The same amount of crown? In the same direction?

Really only relevant if you do most of your driving on fairly straight 2-lane highways that have a consistent crown. If you're on a 4-lane divided highway, you may have road camber in the opposite direction in the left lane vs. the right lane.

I started taking alignment seriously when I started autocrossing in 1995 and I've NEVER intentionally set the camber different on one side of the car vs. the other for any reason and I've NEVER had a car that wouldn't go straight down the road as a result of that.

If that notion were a fact, you'd find reference to it in the factory alignment specs. You won't. Left and right camber specs are always the same.

[whoguy]

Thank you Loren.... I was thinking that myself in regard to the factory specification... it does not mention any of that..... The Tech must of been bullshitting..... oh well... next Alignment will be the same on both sides.

You are an encyclopaedia of experience and knowledge Loren.

[fmicle]

You are an encyclopaedia of experience and knowledge Loren.

+1 Suspension/alignment MASTER :bow:

And if I remember correctly, Loren posted the best (IMHO) header evaluation article, which made me get the DC Sports one as well :smile:

[Lafiro]

Does this need to be done every time you change between winter tires on 15in to 17" wheels each year? Or its all based on the drop of the car?

I lowered the car and I dont think I have ever done the allignment in the last 3 years.

Maybe I should do it now, also, where should I go that will do a good thorough job?

[unclenefeesa]

Hi all,

Glad to see so much knowledgeable ppl in this forum :w00t: .
Alignment has always been a problem for me especially since most road conditions at average to poor where I live and alignment mechanics are idiots/jerks.

To get to the point, about a month ago it was raining and I hit a hole in the road, driver side, and the front tire blew out. it had a 1.5 inch long tear on the side. I pulled over and put the spare tire on (same tire as original). everything was fine with no tilts in the steering wheel and the car was not pulling to either side.

However, 10 days ago I rotated my tires as it says I should in the owners manual, the steering wheel became tilted to the left by 15 ~ 20 degrees and the car pulls very very slightly to the right.

when I rotated the tires, the mechanic said I don't need to balance the tires since they barely have 10,000 KM on them and are about 1 year old and look in good condition.

I would love any recommendations / advice you might have as to what to do or check.

helpful info:

- Car type: Sedan, 2008 model
- tire type: Bridgestone, RE080 185 R15 60
- milage: just less than 10,000 KM (6213.71 miles)
- Car age: 1year 4 months

If you need other info, please let me know.

I appreciate any help.