will chevy volt decimate toyota yaris and others

[Yawesh]

the volt seems very good on paper.....

[yaris-me]

GM is on a come back. Only the economy and the unions can prevent that. I think the success of the Volt depends on the price of gas.

[slothman86]

GM is doing a really good job with twisting stats to make them look amazing.

Either way how does it perform after the 40 when the range extender kicks in?
I bet the 40 mile range is the best they could get from using only electricity. What if you don't drive like a grandma? How is your range decreased?

Oh and exactly how much is it?

[CKaelin]

Isn't the Volt like $40,000? Totally different market then Yaris.

[BailOut]

GM is on a come back. Only their horrible track record on reliability and craftsmanship and the fact that they would be bankrupt and dead right now if it weren't for the buyability of the U.S. goverment can prevent that.
There. Fixed it for ya.

[JBIZZ]

I doubt it. I think their CEO recently got fired. Almost time for bailout #2. I wonder how many times a company can go bankrupt. What would you rather have a Volt or G-35 or BMW. They're all the same price. I tell you what I would like is one of those Teslas.

[yaris-me]

There. Fixed it for ya.

:laugh::laugh::laugh:

[sqcomp]

It's a sad thing for me to say but...

ANY american car company is going to be a VERY hard sell for me. Until this Yaris, I've been tortured with American product. Very poor build quality, poor engineering, and hands down THE WORST service at pretty much any dealership.

I have had the very opposite experience with Toyota. I figure that my little Yaris is going to be the first step of a lifelong investment in the company. The car has had NO problems whatsoever...even if it did, I know that the dealership I take it to would take care of me with no questions asked. I plan on purchasing a Toyota Camary when this little Yaris had run it's course...in ten or fifteen years.

So, to the person who has a love affair with GM...take it to a hotel room. You've got a fickle partner in GM, have fun while it lasts (which won't be too long). I've got a healthy relationship with a REAL car manufacturer thank you very much.

Merry eFn Christmas GM! Don't let the door hit you in the a$$.

[advocate]

$12,000 car @ 40MPG = $28,000 left for gas

$28,000 / $3 per gallon = 9333.33 gallons

9333.33 gallons @ 40 MPG = 373,333.33 miles

When's the last time someone drove a Chevy over 375,000 miles?

[Yawesh]

Isn't the Volt like $40,000? Totally different market then Yaris.

really...dang....i checked website, and price is 'not' out yet...heh......then it would take nearly two decades to actually meet the value of it.....

[Yar Is Word]

ReVolting!

[Black Yaris]

i am sure the environmental damage done to mine and refine the products used in those batteries will greatly out weigh the few advantages of the volt.

even the batteries for the Prius create more carbon emissions to produce than a full sized V8 SUV will emit in it's entire lifetime... and the batteries need to be replace 1-2 times in it's lifetime.

[cali yaris]

even the batteries for the Prius create more carbon emissions to produce than a full sized V8 SUV will emit in it's entire lifetime... and the batteries need to be replace 1-2 times in it's lifetime.

I'd like to see the source for that, please. I don't doubt it, but I want to read it myself from a reliable source.

[BailOut]

even the batteries for the Prius create more carbon emissions to produce than a full sized V8 SUV will emit in it's entire lifetime... and the batteries need to be replace 1-2 times in it's lifetime.

Negative. And before you bother posting the Hummer vs. Prius junk science:

http://www.grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/

[slothman86]

So this is based on driving 40 miles a day only (how far does the range extender allow you to drive?)

Let's say...it extends the range 40 miles for sake of all fairness...

Good bye to long trips. 80 miles round trip? This car will be good for people who don't have to drive more than to work and back. Now you have to keep an eye on 2 meters of fuel.

but again in all fairness we have to look at all sides.
I guess you could stop every 40 miles after your charge is gone and pick up more gas.
We really need to know how efficient this gas to electric generator is how many gallons to kw. This will tell us true MPG.

It looks like this will become a conventional car anyway. How about all those people who don't own a home or live somewhere where you don't have access to a plug?
What happens if the power goes out?

There are so many reasons on why not to buy this car. It seems that the car will control your life and take away what conveniences a car was supposed to bring. If you travel less than 40 miles a day to work, You may want to look into Public Transportation or a bicycle. Not on a $40,000 GM.

Anyone have a good reason why to buy, besides the "environmental" reason?

[BailOut]

How about all those people who don't own a home or live somewhere where you don't have access to a plug?
Just like the world was not magically littered with fuel stations overnight, it will take time for the infrastructure for widespread EV use to grow. Such infrastructure will undoubtedly include pay-as-you-go meters at apartment complexes, strip malls, etc. Homeowners will likely be the early adopters due to easier access to outlets, just as we saw with the EVs in California in the late 1990s.

What happens if the power goes out?
The same logic applies to the question, "What if the trucks stop running?". Then you get no more gasoline fuel, just as happens when pipelines have issues, countries embargo each other, etc. This happens in my area from time to time because most of our gasoline and other commodities get shipped to us over the Sierra Nevada mountains from California. Even though NDOT and CalTrans have made huge leaps in the technology they employ to keep I-80 open sometimes things are just too much and they have to close it. Even when it is open doesn't mean every truck, or more accurately every truck driver, can make it over Donner Pass. When this happens some fuel stations run out of gasoline. Starbucks runs out of pastries. Grocery stores run out of some stock. Etc.

When pipelines have issues it can quickly manifest as a fuel shortage. This happened earlier this year in a corridor running from the Gulf coast of Louisiana up into parts of Iowa. For 5 days the gasoline didn't flow, and it only took 3 of those days for fist fights and gasoline thieves to break out in large numbers.

In other words, access to electricity for many of us is just as, if not more than, stable than our access to just about any other commodity, including trucked-in or piped-in gasoline.

[slothman86]

Just like the world was not magically littered with fuel stations overnight, it will take time for the infrastructure for widespread EV use to grow. Such infrastructure will undoubtedly include pay-as-you-go meters at apartment complexes, strip malls, etc. Homeowners will likely be the early adopters due to easier access to outlets, just as we saw with the EVs in California in the late 1990s.

The same logic applies to the question, "What if the trucks stop running?". Then you get no more gasoline fuel, just as happens when pipelines have issues, countries embargo each other, etc. This happens in my area from time to time because most of our gasoline and other commodities get shipped to us over the Sierra Nevada mountains from California. Even though NDOT and CalTrans have made huge leaps in the technology they employ to keep I-80 open sometimes things are just too much and they have to close it. Even when it is open doesn't mean every truck, or more accurately every truck driver, can make it over Donner Pass. When this happens some fuel stations run out of gasoline. Starbucks runs out of pastries. Grocery stores run out of some stock. Etc.

When pipelines have issues it can quickly manifest as a fuel shortage. This happened earlier this year in a corridor running from the Gulf coast of Louisiana up into parts of Iowa. For 5 days the gasoline didn't flow, and it only took 3 of those days for fist fights and gasoline thieves to break out in large numbers.

In other words, access to electricity is for many of us just as, if not more, stable than our access to just about any other commodity, including trucked-in or piped-in gasoline.

I understand the infrastructure isn't there for EVs...that's why I think it is a problem...Especially for people who don't own their own home. If those who live in apartments get this vehicle they will be at a disadvantage.

According to the NMHC, 33% of people in the US rent. Until there is some some of system to support EVs. At least part of this percentage will be excluded from buying the VOLT.

(Now most of the renters in my area are Military and they usually have new cars.)

But now consider the 66% of people who own homes. How many of those people would be in the market to buy the VOLT? How many of those drive 40 or less a day and can charge overnight?

So it takes 3 hours to charge using the 240 volt outlet and 8 hours using 120v. If I charged for an hour at a shopping complex that would only give me 5 miles of driving on 120v and 13 or 14 on 240. This would probably have some sort of cost as well. What happens when something comes up and you haven't charged your car yet? You still have to buy gasoline. Maybe if your employer would install a charge station it would reduce the risk of being stranded. But I doubt that would come without some sort of cost as well.

I can't help but think there is some sort of factor we are leaving out. That when applied to the real world will totally ground the VOLT.

So 78% of all Americans drive less than 40 miles per day. What percent of that 78% do not have the ability or convenience to charge overnight?

So basically GM's market is people who have the ability to charge overnight and that drive less than 40 miles per day and are willing to drop 40g's for a sedan.

Not to say that you can't run an extension cord from your apartment, but seriously it would suck the first time you forgot!

FOR THE FUTURE:

I would think a good idea is some sort of induction charging instead of pulling the cord out every time you had to charge for home owners(charging stations.) Which would be everyday for some people, but that's probably in the very distant future. Maybe the whole highway is one inductor like a metro rail and with the proper account you can pull electricity from it...?

The VOLT sounds like a great idea right now, but in practice I think It would be a 40K hassle. Especially since you STILL need oil changes and you STILL need to maintain the gas engine.

ref:
http://gm-volt.com/2007/12/06/how-did-gm-determine-that-78-of-commuters-drive-less-than-40-miles-per-day/

[BailOut]

The most ironic part of where this conversation is going is that it mirrors the discussions that took place in the early 1900s as gasoline-burning engines began to replace electric motors in vehicles. Just as not everyone that owned an EV at that time ran out and bought a gasoline burner, today's motorists will not all run out and buy an EV at the same time.

Yes, the Volt does have some shortcomings, which you have already pointed out well, but the simple fact is that we have to start somewhere. Most folks in the know believe that we have already achieved peak oil, which means that you and I will likely see the end of affordable gasoline in our lifetimes.

While I would much rather have a pure BEV with an 80-100 mile range that can charge off either 120V or 240V, the auto industry has balked at this time and again. GM is approaching it the only way they know how: by half stepping. What I find most interesting in all this is that they are the first manufacturer that supplies the U.S. market that is offering any sort of production-level EV when I wholly expected this to come from the Japanese 30 years ago.

Is the Volt perfect? Far from it. But it is indeed a step in the right direction, if only a baby step.

[BailOut]

I have not seen or heard of this story. If there was a shortage of fuel and people were fighting and stealing because of the shortage it would make it onto every news channel in Iowa. You do anything in large numbers in Iowa it is all over the news, no matter what part of the state you live in. Again I have not even heard of a single instance of this. I am not saying it did not happen but where did you get your info from?
I'm having difficulty in finding the article as it was just an RSS feed from Grist.org at the time, but I do remember that the article was not clear on exactly where the fighting was. It mentioned that the fuel shortage reached as far as Iowa, but not specifically that there was fist fighting in that State.

There are other examples of fuel shortages in the U.S., though. Here's one from September 2008 due to hurricanes Ike and Gustav that reached as far as Atlanta and Nashville, and which lasted for up to 8 days:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092504159.html

http://www.allthatsevil.net/?p=458

[Sidicas]

So this is based on driving 40 miles a day only (how far does the range extender allow you to drive?)

Let's say...it extends the range 40 miles for sake of all fairness...
On the volt? It's 300 miles... Not only that, but the "range extender" is very easily replaceable.. You can yank it out of there and put in a hydrogen, fuel cell, or diesel range extender.. Whichever takes your fancy. All the range extender is, is a generator..


Anyone have a good reason why to buy, besides the "environmental" reason? There's quite a few good reasons to buy, one of the more popular ones being that electric motors have ridiculous amounts of torque in them. I mean, there's not a single gas powered car out there that can really compete with the electric Tesla roadsters as far as I know. Gas powered cars have been around for ages, you'd think gas engines would have advanced to the point where they could leap the torque barriers without massive engine sizes and weight, but apparently not.

Electric cars are the next high end sports cars.. No doubt there. 0-60 in <3.7 seconds. And that is just the first generation of electric cars. Think about comparing the model-T to a modern high end sports car to see how much gas engine technology has evolved.. Then think of the Tesla roadsters as beating the doors off pretty much every gas car out there and realize that the roadsters are pretty much the model-T of electric cars. I expect to see the day where most cars on the highway can do 0-60 in less than a second with the right set of tires and advancements in electric engine tech..

[supmet]

^^ there's a ton of cars faster than the tesla, for around the same price, and we are very far from the first generation of electric cars, the tesla really shouldn't even be considered 2nd generation.

[RedRide]

IMO, electric cars are definately a major part of the future.

However, they need further developement to to became mainstream and not be just a esoteric form of transportation

1) The price needs to come down to the level of comparative gas cars.
2) The range needs to be increase a bit,
3) The avalibility of charging staions/outlets outside the home are needed.

IMO, the needs of an electric car to become mainsteam are akin to those that gas powered cars faced in displacing the hores and buggy, namely cost, support and pacticality.

[slothman86]

On the volt? It's 300 miles... Not only that, but the "range extender" is very easily replaceable.. You can yank it out of there and put in a hydrogen, fuel cell, or diesel range extender.. Whichever takes your fancy. All the range extender is, is a generator..

There's quite a few good reasons to buy, one of the more popular ones being that electric motors have ridiculous amounts of torque in them. I mean, there's not a single gas powered car out there that can really compete with the electric Tesla roadsters as far as I know. Gas powered cars have been around for ages, you'd think gas engines would have advanced to the point where they could leap the torque barriers without massive engine sizes and weight, but apparently not.

Electric cars are the next high end sports cars.. No doubt there. 0-60 in <3.7 seconds. And that is just the first generation of electric cars. Think about comparing the model-T to a modern high end sports car to see how much gas engine technology has evolved.. Then think of the Tesla roadsters as beating the doors off pretty much every gas car out there and realize that the roadsters are pretty much the model-T of electric cars. I expect to see the day where most cars on the highway can do 0-60 in less than a second with the right set of tires and advancements in electric engine tech..

I've been trying to find out what kind of generator they used all day, where did you find that out? I even looked on the GM site...maybe I missed it? I know it was on wikipedia but the link doesn't work anymore...so

Oh well I found it and they are using a 1.4 L Motor so yes it is a generator.

So I'm guessing you have this 1.4 L that uses gas for those 300 miles. That's good and solves the getting stranded problem. It still doesn't get rid of the gas so It's a start but I think once the Plug-In Prius comes around there will really be no competition. Especially being what almost 20,000 less.

[why?]

the biggest problem of all is where the electricity comes from, and how much it costs. If it ends up costing more anyways, and polluting more to boot, what exactly is the point?

[Kal-El]

How can a car that costs 3 times as much as a Yaris decimate it? :confused: The Volt will have zero effect on Yaris sales.

There also seems to be this idea that the Volt has a limited range. It is only limited in the same way any other car is - when it runs out of gas. Keep gas in the Volt, and its gas powered generator will keep it going as far as you need.

Cross country trip? No problem.

[BailOut]

the biggest problem of all is where the electricity comes from, and how much it costs. If it ends up costing more anyways, and polluting more to boot, what exactly is the point?

It has been shown time and again that even if the electricity comes from the dirtiest source - coal - that it is still 70% cleaner at the wheel than burning gasoline.

As for cost, I assume you are referring to the electricity and not the vehicle itself. I live in one of the most expensive areas of the world for electricity (as I write this we are paying $0.124/kWh) and my cost per mile with an EV is roughly 25% what gasoline costs me.

If you are referring to the cost of the vehicle remember that you are not comparing apples to apples. Many of the costs of the ownership of a gasoline burning car are absent with EVs such as oil changes, air filters, tune ups, clutch/transmission fluids and wear, etc.

[slothman86]

It has been shown time and again that even if the electricity comes from the dirtiest source - coal - that it is still 70% cleaner at the wheel than burning gasoline.

As for cost, I assume you are referring to the electricity and not the vehicle itself. I live in one of the most expensive areas of the world for electricity (as I write this we are paying $0.124/kWh) and my cost per mile with an EV is roughly 25% what gasoline costs me.

If you are referring to the cost of the vehicle remember that you are not comparing apples to apples. Many of the costs of the ownership of a gasoline burning car are absent with EVs such as oil changes, air filters, tune ups, clutch/transmission fluids and wear, etc.

except you have the 1.4 L engine in there as well... won't this require maint?

[thebarber]

Is the Volt perfect? Far from it. But it is indeed a step in the right direction, if only a baby step.

x2

[BailOut]

except you have the 1.4 L engine in there as well... won't this require maint?
Yes, it will, because the Volt is a hybrid - not an EV. The poster that I quoted gave me the impression that he was speaking about EVs in general rather than just the Volt, and that's what I was speaking to.

[Sidicas]

IMO, electric cars are definately a major part of the future.

However, they need further developement to to became mainstream and not be just a esoteric form of transportation

1) The price needs to come down to the level of comparative gas cars.
2) The range needs to be increase a bit,
3) The avalibility of charging staions/outlets outside the home are needed.

IMO, the needs of an electric car to become mainsteam are akin to those that gas powered cars faced in displacing the hores and buggy, namely cost, support and pacticality.

100 years ago, your great ancestors posted..

IMO, gas cars are definitely a major part of the future.

However, they need further development to to became mainstream and not be just a esoteric form of transportation

1) The price needs to come down to the level of steam engines.
2) The range needs to be increase a bit,
3) The availability of gasoline stations/outlets outside the home are needed. You can always use Coal, wood or anything that burns to power a steam engine, but we need places to be able to get gasoline.

IMO, the needs of a gas car to become mainstream are akin to those that steam powered engines faced in displacing the horse and buggy, namely cost, support and practicality.


Yes, it will, because the Volt is a hybrid - not an EV. The poster that I quoted gave me the impression that he was speaking about EVs in general rather than just the Volt, and that's what I was speaking to.

I wouldn't call the Volt a hybrid.. Hybrid cars have both gas and electric engines to power the car.. The volt is 100% electric with a gasoline charger / range extender.. Technically not a hybrid engine design since only one engine turns the wheels.. You could always yank the gas engine out of a Chevy Volt and the car will work 100% until it runs out of energy..
You can't yank the gasoline engine out of a prius and have it still be a usable car, it wouldn't get above 45MPH..

The MAJOR show-stopper that I see with the Chevy Volt, especially up here in NY and colder climates is that the electric motors are so energy efficient that they don't generate any heat.. Yup, 30 below and no heat! Of course, I'd imagine that the car's heating comes from the range extender gas engine but having to run that 24/7 kinda defeats the point of putting down 30 grand for an electric car like the Volt.

If I lived down south, then I would definitely get the volt as my next car.

[BailOut]

I wouldn't call the Volt a hybrid.. Hybrid cars have both gas and electric engines to power the car.. The volt is 100% electric with a gasoline charger / range extender.. Technically not a hybrid engine design since only one engine turns the wheels.. You could always yank the gas engine out of a Chevy Volt and the car will work 100% until it runs out of energy..
You can't yank the gasoline engine out of a prius and have it still be a usable car, it wouldn't get above 45MPH..

The MAJOR show-stopper that I see with the Chevy Volt, especially up here in NY and colder climates is that the electric motors are so energy efficient that they don't generate any heat.. Yup, 30 below and no heat! Of course, I'd imagine that the car's heating comes from the range extender gas engine but having to run that 24/7 kinda defeats the point of putting down 30 grand for an electric car like the Volt.

The Volt does not have a hybrid drive train but it does indeed have a hybrid power system. Also, 1.4L is complete and total overkill just for charging some batteries, and its presence in the car puts it in the same mechanical class as the other hybrids on the road, some of which employ even smaller engines for their drive train (the first generation Honda Insight uses a 1.0L 3 cylinder).

When it comes to heating EVs employ a ceramic-based resistance heater, much like a space heater. This means the heat in the Volt will likely come from the batteries rather than the engine, but it will end up running the engine sooner in order to replenish the batteries.