Synthetic VS. Regular oil reliability

[captainm27]

I keep hearing about how great synthetic oil is, and how many people are switching to it. I have always just used regular oil. My question is, if I get regular oil changes every 5,000 miles, will that be just alright for my car? Or must I switch to syntheic to avoid costly repairs down the road? (e.g. 100,000+ miles)

[Yaris Hilton]

I'm betting on the "regular" oil and 5000 mile changes. If it were necessary to use synthetic oil to avoid costly repairs down the road, don't you think Toyota would've recommended it?

FWIW, over the years I've run a number of cars well above 100,000 miles without problems on conventional oils, and the only 2 engines that have suffered any lubrication related failures (a bad timing chain and excessive oil consumption) were run on Mobil 1 with an extended drain interval then promoted by Mobil.

Also FWIW, I had the top end off of my old 1985 Harley that had only used Harley-Davidson branded oil and Castrol GTX after 60,000 miles. The pistons, rings and cylinder bores were all in perfect shape, measured within new stock specs, and had no visible scratches. The original honing marks in the bores all looked fresh. I put it all back together as it was (replacing the defective base gaskets as well as installing some performance parts like a cam, carb, ignition module and exhaust.) No synthetic oil could've performed any better there. That was an air cooled engine that ran a lot hotter than a Yaris engine does. Conventional oils have advanced a lot since then, too.

IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well. I use the quotation marks because the "conventional" oils haven't been based on petroleum distillates for a long time. With processes like hydrocracking used so extensively, it's arguable that they're "synthetic," though not built up as polymers from small simple molecules, and many of the ingredients of older mineral oil bases that were bad formers of sludge and varnish can no longer be found in them.

There are many enthusiastic advocates and users of synthetic oils on this board. Many of them use extended drain intervals, which make the increased initial cost of the synthetic less daunting. Unless they're regularly using an oil analysis service to tell when it's time to change it, I fear some will come to grief as I did. "Conventional" oils as well as synthetics could run safely well past recommended change intervals under ideal engine operating conditions, but most drivers operate most of the time under what car makers used to call "severe" operating conditions that cause more oil contamination. I am unconvinced that synthetics can safely run longer with this.

Modern engine control systems and reformulated, low-sulfur fuels have greatly reduced oil contamination for all of us, though. You ought to see pictures from an old textbook I have from the early '50s on engine lubrication showing the deposits on engine parts test run with the best quality fuels of the day and low grade stuff containing lots of gum forming components! Fuels are far less variable today than they were, but are still an important part of the overall picture.

Most people working on cars today have probably never seen an engine with the heavy black brittle "carbon" crusts, thick tarry sludge deposits, and slimy, mucky, gray-black pudding-like glop that were standard findings in engines of the past. It's amazing that they could run as well as they did. We've come a long way!

[DerFlosser]

No questions asked, synthetic is better and you can get it for a few dollars more than conventional at Wal-Mart. An absolute "no brainer" AFAIC.

[RUFFSTUFF]

If you change your oil regularly as scheduled, the oil as specified in your owner's/service manual will be just fine. To make a blanket statement that synthetic oil is better is inaccurate. Detailed analysis of auto oils has shown that each brand and each blend has its own characteristics and performance profile, with some "dino" oils outperforming their synthetic counterparts. Generally though, I believe synthetic oils may have better long term performance. If you wanted to change your oil every 7500-10000 miles vice 5000 then I would recommend a quality synthetic oil. I think your driving habits should one of the main determining factors.

[Sodium Duck]

I use synthetic oil because I'm lazy. I change my oil every 7,500 miles now.

Also, if I ever resell my car, I can say that every oil change has been on time with a high quality synthetic (Amsoil).

[roxy1]

no brainer, imo. if you are changing your oil every 5k miles, it is doubtful you will never realize any difference by using synthetic oils (except in your pocketbook)

i do think the maker of synthetic oils have done some brilliant marketing over the years and many people who will never see any benefits from using synthetics vs regular every 5 k spend extra $$ money on them. more power to them for raking in more profits.

[RUFFSTUFF]

I agree, marketing has had a huge influence on opinion. All those damn Castrol and Mobil 1 commercials! Funny how they never seem to mention that, oh by the way, they have the same ratings as everyone else.

[127.0.0.1]

I'm betting on the "regular" oil and 5000 mile changes. If it were necessary to use synthetic oil to avoid costly repairs down the road, don't you think Toyota would've recommended it?

FWIW, over the years I've run a number of cars well above 100,000 miles without problems on conventional oils, and the only 2 engines that have suffered any lubrication related failures (a bad timing chain and excessive oil consumption) were run on Mobil 1 with an extended drain interval then promoted by Mobil.

Also FWIW, I had the top end off of my old 1985 Harley that had only used Harley-Davidson branded oil and Castrol GTX after 60,000 miles. The pistons, rings and cylinder bores were all in perfect shape, measured within new stock specs, and had no visible scratches. The original honing marks in the bores all looked fresh. I put it all back together as it was (replacing the defective base gaskets as well as installing some performance parts like a cam, carb, ignition module and exhaust.) No synthetic oil could've performed any better there. That was an air cooled engine that ran a lot hotter than a Yaris engine does. Conventional oils have advanced a lot since then, too.

IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well. I use the quotation marks because the "conventional" oils haven't been based on petroleum distillates for a long time. With processes like hydrocracking used so extensively, it's arguable that they're "synthetic," though not built up as polymers from small simple molecules, and many of the ingredients of older mineral oil bases that were bad formers of sludge and varnish can no longer be found in them.

There are many enthusiastic advocates and users of synthetic oils on this board. Many of them use extended drain intervals, which make the increased initial cost of the synthetic less daunting. Unless they're regularly using an oil analysis service to tell when it's time to change it, I fear some will come to grief as I did. "Conventional" oils as well as synthetics could run safely well past recommended change intervals under ideal engine operating conditions, but most drivers operate most of the time under what car makers used to call "severe" operating conditions that cause more oil contamination. I am unconvinced that synthetics can safely run longer with this.

Modern engine control systems and reformulated, low-sulfur fuels have greatly reduced oil contamination for all of us, though. You ought to see pictures from an old textbook I have from the early '50s on engine lubrication showing the deposits on engine parts test run with the best quality fuels of the day and low grade stuff containing lots of gum forming components! Fuels are far less variable today than they were, but are still an important part of the overall picture.

Most people working on cars today have probably never seen an engine with the heavy black brittle "carbon" crusts, thick tarry sludge deposits, and slimy, mucky, gray-black pudding-like glop that were standard findings in engines of the past. It's amazing that they could run as well as they did. We've come a long way!

194,000 on my 4runner, got it in dec 1998, always ran mobil 1 and changed at 10,000 miles, thing is rock solid, gets better than epa, doesn't lose more than 1% of the oil over 10,000 miles (in other words, very tight motor and good seals and rings)

[scape]

IMO the synthetics mainly have advantages on the extremes of operating temperature, and if you're not pushing the limits there, with regular changing the "conventional" oils will do as well.

i think this is one of the reasons it is desired, that and extended intervals to drain-- but i also think people run synthetics at longer than recommended for the oil filter and most people don't realize that. the filter has a life of it's own and no matter what oil you are using, the filter is very important to filter out many, many things; so maybe the oil itself did not breakdown, but there are things to be filtered nonetheless. http://yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=20021&highlight=filter

I myself stick to regular oil changes at around 4500 - 5000 miles.

[Sidicas]

Ya, I've been thinking about it all week after purchasing a new Yaris.
I've owned a lot of high RPM gas efficient cars and the engines on them was never the reason I scrapped the cars. All that gear shifting that they do, I think the automatic tranny is what deserves the extra care. I'll be taking the money I saved on not going with synthetic oil to do more tranny flushes.

Other than the extra tranny flushes, I plan to follow the regular maint schedule with non-synthetic.

Maybe it's just because I'm coming from Saturns and Chevrolets, both of which we've had serious automatic tranny issues develop after 150,000 miles. Even when following their maint. schedule. The engines on those cars were perfectly fine after 150k though, but the Trannys were like 5 grand to replace, which was about 25 times more than the KBB value of the car.

[captainm27]

Thanks for all the feedback. I'm getting a much better understanding now between conventional and synthetic. So, it stands to reason then, that if I drive my car normally (e.g. following speed limits....yeah, I'm one of those drivers, so keep honking your horns!), I suppose then with regular 5,000 mile oil change intervals I should be fine, even down the road with high mileage.

[b_hickman11]

A lot of people use syntheic because they think it makes them feel like they are driving a BMW or a Jag. When in fact their driving a bottom of the line, entry level vehicle. Synthetic was developed for high performance, high HP vehicles and the Yaris is completely the opposite. And if you drive your Yaris like it is a high performance vehicle then your setting yourself up for many other problems that this fake oil can't prevent.

[RUFFSTUFF]

It's not so much driving the speed limit (get out of my way!) but the type of driving you do i.e. city, highway, mix, whatever...

[RUFFSTUFF]

A lot of people use syntheic because they think it makes them feel like they are driving a BMW or a Jag. When in fact their driving a bottom of the line, entry level vehicle. Synthetic was developed for high performance, high HP vehicles and the Yaris is completely the opposite. And if you drive your Yaris like it is a high performance vehicle then your setting yourself up for many other problems that this fake oil can't prevent.


Be careful, some people here think the Yaris is right up there with the Evo's and WRX's... hell, it's no where even close to a Mazda3! lol

[Inspector14]

I use synthetic oils exclusively. dumped the factory oil at 500 miles for Pennzoil platinum ( group 3 base) and then switched to Castrol edge (group 3/ group 4 base).

from the research that i have done, by going to the manufacturers and looking at the published data sheets for the major brands, synthetic oils and synthetic blends flow better in cold temperatures and they hold up better over longer intervals.

that being said, the conventional base stock oils are nearly as good as the "synthetics" that are sold now. you cant go wrong with either one.

if the area you live in does get cold, a synthetic based oil will flow better at the coldest temperatures, that's why i use it (i live in Alaska, right now its 6* F) you can really tell a difference when the temp dips down to something like -18* F.

but in all seriousness down in the lower 48 states, a conventional oil is just as good as a synthetic now, unless you want to prform extended drain intervals upwards of 8-10,ooo miles.

[Yaris Hilton]

Lowest temp I've seen here was about -10°F, and the last time I've seen temps in that range was in 1985. 5W-30 Castrol GTX will work fine at that.

[TheSilkySmooth]

A lot of real synthetics use PAO, and this is a good cold flowing fluid, but its not a very good lubricant. Unless you need -40degC cold flow (where paraffinic oils are solid) you are well served by conventional oils which in 5w-30 grade will not gell till below -30degC, Another BIG issue is ILSAC required the limiting of antiwear and extreme pressure additive because they render cat converters inneffective if the engine burns a lot of oil. This "green" spec causes additional wear and noise in most engines running SM/GF4 oil. If you REALLY want to feel a difference in using a premuim oil, and run your car HARD, try a race oil like Motul 300v, Redline or even Mobil 1 Race 4T superbike oil. If you want to get a good taste of what the race oils and additives do for performance, you should run: 3quarts of valvoline 5w-30 synpower and the balance for sump topoff of: Mobil1 Racing 4T (10w-40/-65f pour point). This specific and proved mixture will keep a street engine running in top perfoprmance and will hold up to hard driving without spending the 40 bucks on a whole sump of "10 bucks a litre" Motul or Redline oil. Run a good filter like the wix 51396 (for the larger Camry engine) or the Purolator Classic . The Purolator gold has flow issues on thicker oil and I can not recommend it.

[Yaris Hilton]

The reduced level of ZDP antiwear additive in modern oils is mainly an issue for pushrod engines with flat tappet cams using more aggressive cam profiles than most stock engines. Those engines should run race oils or diesel oils. Under the API rating system, if the manufacturer first rates the oil with a diesel specification and then rates it for spark ignition engines, the reduced phosphorus level doesn't apply. Just a quirk of the rules. Before the reduction in ZDP, most oils contained it at a level of about 800 PPM phosphorus content since it came out in the early 1950s, they went up briefly to 1000 in the late '70s-early '80s when it was found that the finger type cam followers on Ford 4 cylinder engines were wearing too fast, but went back to 800 when they found that the Ford follower problem wasn't due to insufficient ZDP. The ILSAC GF-4 & API SM oils now are required to have less than 800 and more than 600, and usually run right in the middle of that range, so it hasn't been reduced that much. New engines have a lot less reciprocating mass in the valvetrains, have lighter valve spring tension, and often have roller lifters. They don't have problems with current levels of ZDP and it's not expected to be reduced with the upcoming GF-5 specification. Mainly the owners of classic musclecars and hotrodded American V8s need to worry about this issue.

Catalysts being expensive, and with emissions tests becoming ever more widespread, it's worth taking care of them.

[severous01]

i usually add 25% to my synthetic oils...however, with the lower costs of the 5q buckets at walmart and the fact that this thing only takes like 3.5q of oil, every 2 oil changes i have an extra oil change for even cheaper.

surprisingly, my fuel economy keeps going up. now i changed my oil at the first interval. i immediately switched to syn on first change. i guess the engine wasnt broken in and it's slowly breaking in with the synthetic oils. any way, i'm happy seening as how my oil isnt even ready to be changed when i drain it. it's still a dark amber color, not anywhere near black or dark brown like i see most of the time working at a dealership.

[Yaris Hilton]

it's still a dark amber color, not anywhere near black or dark brown like i see most of the time working at a dealership.

That's the way the original dino stuff looked coming out of mine at 5K, and the Castrol GTX in it now is pale yellow on the dipstick at about 3K. Color doesn't tell you much, but the 1NZ-FE doesn't soot up its oil badly.

[1stToyota]

If you change your oil regularly as scheduled, the oil as specified in your owner's/service manual will be just fine. To make a blanket statement that synthetic oil is better is inaccurate. Detailed analysis of auto oils has shown that each brand and each blend has its own characteristics and performance profile, with some "dino" oils outperforming their synthetic counterparts. Generally though, I believe synthetic oils may have better long term performance. If you wanted to change your oil every 7500-10000 miles vice 5000 then I would recommend a quality synthetic oil. I think your driving habits should one of the main determining factors.

Most brands of synthetic make the same blanket statement that their synthetic outperforms conventional, including their own conventional, I take it. I buy it [Pennzoil Platinum] so cheap I don't see the need in ever running conventional for 5k miles.

[RUFFSTUFF]

If you can get a good deal on Synth, then go for it... I do. The way I see it, there's more harm in using the absolute cheapest oil available and saving a few dollars then there is paying more money for synthetic when its overkill.

[Yaris Hilton]

There's no harm in "overkill," but neither is there in using bargain priced oil that meets the manufacturer's specs.

[UTVitz]

I was a fence sitter on this subject at one time-one year ago. I'd read everyone's comments as well as web sites that talked about synthetic vs. conventional and I still wasn't sure. Till I watched the video Mobile One put up on a test they conducted on taxi cabs in Las Vegas. When I saw how clean the inside of the synthetic engine was vs. the conventional oil engine I was sold. At first I tried Mobile One, but ultimately switched to Redline since I found a local vender and knew this brand from my motorcycle days. I also switched a '92 Miata with 160k miles on it and it's clickety lifters have never been quieter and it had been on conventional it's whole life with no engine failures other than lots of oil leaks that have all been chased down and fixed.

Conventionals are really great oils in todays market. Switching to synthetic is really a personal and economic decision that's different for everyone. If I didn't do my own oil changes there is no way I'd pay the dealer mark up on synthetic, but since I save doing it myself I can go syn. for what conventional would cost paying the dealer to do it.

Some fence sitter things I wondered about was fuel mileage-would it be any better? Nope, I'm still where I was on conventional. Engine quiter-not that I can tell, seems the same as when new. Would the engine start leaking oil? Fortunately, no, it has not. Finally, how would I feel about it-well, total piece of mind that I've put the best in my car, no matter what brand of car I want to take care of it.

[RUFFSTUFF]

There's no harm in "overkill," but neither is there in using bargain priced oil that meets the manufacturer's specs.


That's just it... "meeting the spec" and being quality are 2 different things. Would you pick a doctor to perform surgery on you that met the spec, or would you prefer an established specialist?

[RUFFSTUFF]

I was a fence sitter on this subject at one time-one year ago. I'd read everyone's comments as well as web sites that talked about synthetic vs. conventional and I still wasn't sure. Till I watched the video Mobile One put up on a test they conducted on taxi cabs in Las Vegas. When I saw how clean the inside of the synthetic engine was vs. the conventional oil engine I was sold. At first I tried Mobile One, but ultimately switched to Redline since I found a local vender and knew this brand from my motorcycle days. I also switched a '92 Miata with 160k miles on it and it's clickety lifters have never been quieter and it had been on conventional it's whole life with no engine failures other than lots of oil leaks that have all been chased down and fixed.

Conventionals are really great oils in todays market. Switching to synthetic is really a personal and economic decision that's different for everyone. If I didn't do my own oil changes there is no way I'd pay the dealer mark up on synthetic, but since I save doing it myself I can go syn. for what conventional would cost paying the dealer to do it.

Some fence sitter things I wondered about was fuel mileage-would it be any better? Nope, I'm still where I was on conventional. Engine quiter-not that I can tell, seems the same as when new. Would the engine start leaking oil? Fortunately, no, it has not. Finally, how would I feel about it-well, total piece of mind that I've put the best in my car, no matter what brand of car I want to take care of it.


+1

[Yaris Hilton]

That's just it... "meeting the spec" and being quality are 2 different things. Would you pick a doctor to perform surgery on you that met the spec, or would you prefer an established specialist?

Not a reasonable comparison. As has already been pointed out, both oils are certified to the same specification. And the specification has already been shown to be good enough. Good enough is good enough.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Not a reasonable comparison. As has already been pointed out, both oils are certified to the same specification. And the specification has already been shown to be good enough. Good enough is good enough.


I'm glad you think good enough is good enough, but its not. Seeing how there is more that one oil spec/standard (look on any container for 'hopefully' the multiple standards), the manufacturer may choose to use 1, 2, 3 or more of the ratings in its recommendation. Much like the manufacturer of the tires on the car or the manufacturer (real) of the radio, I'm sure there is a vested interest in the process. BTW, what oil do you use? Just curious if you follow what you type.

[Yaris Hilton]

I'm currently using Castrol GTX 5W-30.

(As I'd said a few posts above.)

[RUFFSTUFF]

I'm currently using Castrol GTX 5W-30.

(As I'd said a few posts above.)



Yeah, I don't think that's good enough! :laugh:

[Lewis]

It amazes me how emotional folks seem to get about their choice of motor oils?

I guess it shows that the marketeers are doing a good job in convincing people it's a very consequential decision.

As a 62 year old who remembers cars from the 5-60's we are SO far ahead of where we were I think virtually any decision is great compared to the time when getting 100k out of an engine was considered very good!

[RUFFSTUFF]

It's just the internet. Less of a chance of getting punched in the kisser...

[Hershey]

we use synthetic due to high revving engine and the extreme cold temps . The $3 paid a quart (3+ 1/2 qts. PENNZOIL Platinum or SHELL Full Synthetic w/ TOYO ( Denso ) filter @ $3 ) is well worth the gains of synthetic oil . :wink:

[RUFFSTUFF]

High revving? Bah humbug!

[RUFFSTUFF]

we use synthetic due to high revving engine and the extreme cold temps . The $3 paid a quart (3+ 1/2 qts. PENNZOIL Platinum or SHELL Full Synthetic w/ TOYO ( Denso ) filter @ $3 ) is well worth the gains of synthetic oil . :wink:


So what would you lose if you didn't use synth?

[Yaris Hilton]

Nothing. You'll gain nothing by using it IMO. But use what you think is appropriate, and I'll do the same. Nothing's going to be gained (or lost) by arguing about it here.

[b_hickman11]

It's just the internet. Less of a chance of getting punched in the kisser...

...or more of a chance for companies to fudge their advertising.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Nothing. You'll gain nothing by using it IMO. But use what you think is appropriate, and I'll do the same. Nothing's going to be gained (or lost) by arguing about it here.


Arguing? You think this is arguing? Senator, I've know arguing for years, and this isn't arguing! :smoking:

[RUFFSTUFF]

Come on, honestly, do you think I care about what someone else uses for motor oil? Ha! One day, you guys will figure out that the threads where everyone is a bunch of huggers and kissers have little activity. E-mail notifications FTW.

[supmet]

That's the way the original dino stuff looked coming out of mine at 5K,

Well, you either drive like a grandma, or are lying. I've changed dino oil in my yaris at 5k and that shit is black

[RUFFSTUFF]

I don't know what Toyota uses from the factory, but I just changed my oil at 5k last week and it was looking pretty good. It was dark, not black, and still had some of the golden brown hue.

[captainm27]

Well, you either drive like a grandma, or are lying. I've changed dino oil in my yaris at 5k and that shit is black

I drive like a grandma :biggrin: Now, I've heard it say that oil is supposed to get dark....meaning that it's doing its job of keeping the engine clean.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Or absorbed some moisture! lol

[Sidicas]

I filled out the little form on Valvoline's website...



Vehicle: 2010 Toyota Yaris

I have towed something or carried a heavy load with my vehicle at least once in the last year: NO

I consider my vehicle to be a high performance vehicle and/or I have made performance modifications to my vehicle: NO


Because your YARIS has not been driven over 75,000 miles and you do not drive in extreme temperatures, we recommend Valvoline Conventional Motor Oil for your YARIS. It provides protection in all climates and is formulated with advanced additive technology and premium base oils for enhanced performance and protection. For the best engine protection, consider Valvoline's SynPower® Full Synthetic Motor Oil. SynPower is formulated to provide advanced protection against the 3 major causes of engine stress: heat, deposits, and wear. Learn more.


Why didn't we recommend one of these other Valvoline motor oils? Just click on any of the bottles to find out more.

SynPower
Because you have not identified your engine as high-performance, your manufacturer does not recommend a synthetic oil, and you do not drive in extreme temperatures or severe driving conditions, we did not recommend Valvoline's SynPower® Full Synthetic Motor Oil. Although you do not have severe driving conditions, if you want the best engine protection, you should use SynPower motor oil. SynPower delivers superior engine protection by fighting the 3 major causes of engine stress: heat, deposits and wear. SynPower provides outstanding high and low temperature wear protection, superior cold start properties and powerful detergents to help deposits and sludge. Learn more about SynPower.

DuraBlend
Because you do not use your vehicle to haul or tow heavy loads, we did not recommend Valvoline's DuraBlend® Synthetic Blend Motor Oil. DuraBlend has synthetic additives designed to protect your engine when it's working the hardest – like when it's hauling or towing a heavy load. Learn more about DuraBlend.

MaxLife
Because your engine does not yet have 75,000 miles, we did not recommend Valvoline's MaxLife® Motor Oil. MaxLife stops the 4 major causes of engine breakdown: leaks, deposits, sludge and friction. Switch to MaxLife by 75,000 miles and address the 4 major causes of engine breakdown before damage occurs. Learn more about MaxLife Motor Oil.

MaxLife Synthetic
Because your engine does not yet have 75,000 miles, your manufacturer has not recommended a synthetic oil, and you do not drive in extreme temperatures or severe driving conditions, we did not recommend Valvoline's MaxLife® Synthetic Motor Oil.
Like all MaxLife motor oils, our Full Synthetic formula provides a superior chemistry that helps extend engine life by fighting the four major causes of breakdown – leaks, deposits, sludge and friction. MaxLife Synthetic provides the greatest protection available against oil burn-off and friction by combining our Multi-Life™ additive system with a superior full synthetic chemistry. Switch to MaxLife by 75,000 miles and address the 4 major causes of engine breakdown before damage occurs. Learn more about MaxLife Synthetic.

Premium Blue
Your engine is not a diesel engine; therefore, we did not recommend Premium Blue®. Premium Blue provides advanced lubricant performance for diesel engines. Learn more about Premium Blue.



There 'ya have it.. Valvoline's own website recommends I use just their conventional oil..

Try it for yourself..
http://classic.valvoline.com/crmo/vehicle.asp

They specifically ask for your zip code, and I suppose determine what the driving temps are going to be for that area and whether conventional would be ok or not..

I'll probably use synthetic once every 5 or 10 oil changes, but I'm definitely keeping the oil changes at <5000 miles when using synthetic or not..

[RUFFSTUFF]

Way to go, Sidicas. Now what are we going to talk about for the next week? Killjoy.


Otherwise, thanks for the info!

[supmet]

Because your YARIS has been driven 75,000 miles or more and either your OEM requires synthetic motor oil per manufacturer specifications or you drive your vehicle in extreme conditions, we recommend you use Valvoline's MaxLife Full Synthetic Motor Oil. Like all MaxLife motor oils, our Full Synthetic formula provides a superior chemistry that stops the four major causes of engine breakdown – leaks, deposits, sludge and friction, better than regular conventional motor oils.

[b_hickman11]

Well, you either drive like a grandma, or are lying. I've changed dino oil in my yaris at 5k and that shit is black

Maybe you used pre-owned dino oil.....

[severous01]

That's the way the original dino stuff looked coming out of mine at 5K, and the Castrol GTX in it now is pale yellow on the dipstick at about 3K. Color doesn't tell you much, but the 1NZ-FE doesn't soot up its oil badly.

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

[RUFFSTUFF]

Why would you go through the effort of changing the filter but not the oil? Besides on many vehicles I'm sure you would drain a good portion of oil by just taking off the filter...

But maybe severous1 is on to something... HYPEROILING!

[Sidicas]

Why would you go through the effort of changing the filter but not the oil?
To save a buck.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Gotcha.

[b_hickman11]

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

Because he would only be out around $10 than $40-$85 with syn.

[MadMax]

Fucking hell, put maple syrup in your engine if you want! It's your car, and you do what you think is best. If that is synth, then use it (I do). If you want to use regular dino oil, then do that. Change it at 3000, 5000, or 10000 mile intervals, or never! No one cares, 'cause if your Yaris seizes its engine than you will be the one that has to deal with it.

But can we please just quit having all these stupid oil debates?!?

[Yaris Hilton]

I do drive like a grandma, and am not lying. (Black soot is mainly produced by the 1NZ-FE engine when operated near full throttle, in open loop conditions with the mixture enriched.) Nor does it matter to me what anyone puts in their car. I've already said several times that "dino" oil, like synthetic, could go well past factory recommended change intervals under ideal operating conditions. I'm still under warranty and need to be able to show I've been following recommended maintenance if anything does go wrong with my engine, and I don't think oil appearance is a sufficient guideline for extending drain intervals. I don't plan to subscribe to an oil analysis service, but that is the most logical way to determine when it's time to change oil.

As others have grown weary with this thread, so have I. Pleasure yourselves as you like best.

[b_hickman11]

Fucking hell, put maple syrup in your engine if you want! It's your car, and you do what you think is best. If that is synth, then use it (I do). If you want to use regular dino oil, then do that. Change it at 3000, 5000, or 10000 mile intervals, or never! No one cares, 'cause if your Yaris seizes its engine than you will be the one that has to deal with it.

But can we please just quit having all these stupid oil debates?!?

I thought maple syrup and synthetic were the same thing....

[Sidicas]

I thought maple syrup and synthetic were the same thing....
There's an easy way to find out... Bottoms up! :thumbsup:

[SilverGlow]

if oil is still clean, why change it. that means the filter is still filtering, the oil is not burnt, there are no deposits in it, and the oil is still lubricating. there is ABSOLUTELY NO REASON to change oil if it's still clean. i've even gone as far as a 5k check, replace filter, top off and be done with it. and that's what i'd suggest to anyone as a mechanic and having been a mechanic for years...that if it's still clean, let it get dirty. now, after your service interval you'll need to do your checks, and i'd suggest during gas or other fill-ups.

now, on another note. do whatever you want. i'm done on this note, there's more than enough info on the web if you're willing and capable of doing so...

You can always tell those that know nothing about motor oil. They often will use the color and clarity of the oil as an indictor of how dirty or how much usage is still there.

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

[RUFFSTUFF]

You can always tell those that know nothing about motor oil. They often will use the color and clarity of the oil as an indictor of how dirty or how much usage is still there.

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

True, but it doesn't hurt to say man my oil is black and let it keep draining to put in new oil. Maybe that's why there's an oil drain plug and not an oil throttle valve... Let it all out!

[chai]

I might be seeing -40C temperatures next month...

[Sidicas]

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not.

WHAT? You mean I don't have to change my Royal Purple every day?? :eek:

[N9QGS]

I switched to Mobil1 synthetic at 36K, and I am 122K changing it every 5K and I have excellent oil analysis, I pay 22$ for 5 qts plus use toyota filter. I will change to conventional only if I seem to start loosing any oil, but so far its been a great car.

[ddongbap]

It never fails. Someone always has to bring up a debate about Syn and conventional oils. The outcome is the same. Internet heroes will debate.

BTW, to whoever said the comment about the oil color. Metal shards don't change the color of the oil, but it'll sure mess some stuff up.

[TheSilkySmooth]

I might be seeing -40C temperatures next month... Well, dont put M1 0w-30 AFE in (im running it now) Its too thick for a FE oil - though its SUPPOSED to have good cold flow properties. I even had to take my high efficiency BOSH oil filter off due to loud valvatrain and other noised at a 15 degF cold start. I would opt for Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 or (0w20 if toyota approves) or a pan heater and a blosk heater - AND a heated garage:biggrin:

[captainm27]

Well, dont put M1 0w-30 AFE in (im running it now) Its too thick for a FE oil - though its SUPPOSED to have good cold flow properties. I even had to take my high efficiency BOSH oil filter off due to loud valvatrain and other noised at a 15 degF cold start. I would opt for Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 or (0w20 if toyota approves) or a pan heater and a blosk heater - AND a heated garage:biggrin:

...and heated seats, heated mirrors, heated tires, heated steering wheel....:biggrin:

[TheSilkySmooth]

Color is very little to do with ascertaining if oil needs to be changed or not. Agreed. Silver - did you ever contact Toyota Customer care and find out why they didnt put our engine on the 0w-20 approved list? I agree it doesnt ake sense. Ive been reading that the Toyota 0w-20 for the 2AZ is supposed to be very, very good - in fact state of the art. I dont know if I like moly in a oil or not - but this stuff has .1% :eek:

[TheSilkySmooth]

This is not that kind of forum... or is it? Must be the VIP section...An instigator. If you want to debate about oil - I'm the guy. Logical arguments of course, and, only mild speculation and little data required to move forward!:evil:

[TheSilkySmooth]

I'll start. Just came from Lowe's. They stock Briggs and Stratton 5w-30 Full synthetic (32oz) oil with NO API or ILSAC rating. Should be highly additised to a fleet or HDEO level. They had it incorrectly low priced (i had a clerk verify) at 5.98USD a quart. Seems like this would be the nuts for a VTEC engine or a wailed-on Yaris for the winter. Proceed at your own risk. BTW, they also had MTD 5w-30 API SJ/CF HDEO snowking oil for 4.78 for 28oz. Tempting ....

[ddongbap]

Honda guys know better. They run conventional.

[1stToyota]

I'll start. Just came from Lowe's. They stock Briggs and Stratton 5w-30 Full synthetic (32oz) oil with NO API or ILSAC rating. Should be highly additised to a fleet or HDEO level. They had it incorrectly low priced (i had a clerk verify) at 5.98USD a quart. Seems like this would be the nuts for a VTEC engine or a wailed-on Yaris for the winter. Proceed at your own risk. BTW, they also had MTD 5w-30 API SJ/CF HDEO snowking oil for 4.78 for 28oz. Tempting ....

I use the stuff [B&S synthetic] in my John Deere but wouldn't advise using it in my car, in fear of what the long-term effects on the catalytic converter might be.

[1stToyota]

Well, dont put M1 0w-30 AFE in (im running it now) Its too thick for a FE oil - though its SUPPOSED to have good cold flow properties. I even had to take my high efficiency BOSH oil filter off due to loud valvatrain and other noised at a 15 degF cold start. I would opt for Pennzoil Platinum 5w-20 or (0w20 if toyota approves) or a pan heater and a blosk heater - AND a heated garage:biggrin:

I'll probably do my OC today, using M1 0w-30 AFE...they're predicting near zero with -20 wind chills for the next few days, plus it's been nearly 5k miles since the last service. I'll do the UOA [Blackstone Labs] and have them to do the additive package test on the M1. After that I plan on switching back to my normal PP 5w-30, have Blackstone do the same testing and see which one offers the best protection and fuel economy. Hopefully there will be a clear winner.

[devinlamothe]

To be honest, I have NO idea if synthetic is better than conventional - however we do get quite insane temps here (re: -40c), so I figured I may as well use it. No idea either if it helps with cold weather starts, but from my own experience, I have never had my car NOT start in extreme temps.

[b_hickman11]

Just got back from Wal-Mart and I just happen to walk down the oil dept. Most conventional oil bottles advertise a 150,000 mile warranty and some syn oil bottles advertise 300,000 mile warranty. I don't plan on putting more than 150,000 on either of my Yaris's, the average temp in the winter where I live is 48 degrees, and I don't drive my car like I'm racing it in the Daytona 500.....Therefore syn oil has no benefit over conventional oil for me. Thats probably why the shelves where full of syn and about 1/4-1/2 full of conventional.

ps....speaking of the mile warranties...I doubt the oil companies would actually give you a new engine or pay you money if your engine gave out before the 150,000 or 300,000 mile mark. Sounds like just a bunch of advertising poo poo to me!

[TheSilkySmooth]

I'll probably do my OC today, using M1 0w-30 AFE...they're predicting near zero with -20 wind chills for the next few days, plus it's been nearly 5k miles since the last service. ... ... Let me know how it works for you. I may have gotten the WM special misformulated bottle:frown: Also what filter are you planning on running with the AFE? - I would rec against the purolator gold or any high efficiency unit in the winter - given the incredible loud startup and warmup racket I had with the bosch(purolator). Please report back. I dont want to be alone in my AFE woes!

[1stToyota]

Let me know how it works for you. I may have gotten the WM special misformulated bottle:frown: Also what filter are you planning on running with the AFE? - I would rec against the purolator gold or any high efficiency unit in the winter - given the incredible loud startup and warmup racket I had with the bosch(purolator). Please report back. I dont want to be alone in my AFE woes!

I'm stuck using the Pennzoil PZ38 filters for a loong time; bought a case of 12 @ $2.00 each, shipped. Looks a lot like a Fram filter, except the media in the Pennzoil has more pleats when compared to a Fram.

I snuck regular YB Pennzoil 5w-30 in my Yaris for about 3K miles of my last OCI because I was eager to install my Fram sure-drain...sure-drain works great, but YB Pennzoil was a little noisier when pulling into my garage. Pennzoil Platinum is the quietest I've used, slightly beating the Eneos and HP Amsoil...the Mobil 1 isn't any louder than the PP, maybe even less noise than the PP, definitely much quieter than the conventional I had in there.

[Hershey]

using PLATINUM 5w-30 in the '09 5 door . Got it for less than $3 a qt.. TOYO ( Denso ) oil filter at $3.50 each . Use its brother , SHELL 5w-30 full synthetic ( $3 a qt. ) in the '08 sedan along with TOYO filter .

[TheSilkySmooth]

Let me know how it works for you ... I dont want to be alone in my AFE woes! I just changed fuel from Shell where I had been getting a terrible 33 mpg ave over 3 tanks to Mobil. Mobil was crummy in the summer, but this batch seems very good and I know that the last batch of shell has been killing my mileage and causing all kinds of noise and driveability issues - suspect it was misformulated or had WAY too much ethanol in it. My 17 deg cold start on the mobil was "acceptable" and warm run just peachy! So at leat part of my perceived "woes" are due to fuel quality.

[b_hickman11]

I just changed fuel from Shell where I had been getting a terrible 33 mpg ave over 3 tanks to Mobil. Mobil was crummy in the summer, but this batch seems very good and I know that the last batch of shell has been killing my mileage and causing all kinds of noise and driveability issues - suspect it was misformulated or had WAY too much ethanol in it. My 17 deg cold start on the mobil was "acceptable" and warm run just peachy! So at leat part of my perceived "woes" are due to fuel quality.

I have worked at a gas station before and just because it says "Shell" or "Mobil" on top of the building doesn't mean thats the brand of gas they are selling. For the most part, all gas in your region comes from the same holding tank and a lot of times even comes from the same transporter. Meaning a tanker goes and gives 1500 gallons to the Shell station and then goes down the street and gives 1500 gallons of the same exact fuel to the Mobil station.

[supmet]

^^ That's weird because mobil has their own tankers that I see refueling mobil and nowhere else. And are claims of additives(v-power, techron, etc) all false then?

[Yaris Hilton]

Around here I see all brands of gas stations getting their tanks filled from trucks that say, I think, "Appalachian Petroleum." This jobber may add the brands' own proprietary additives, I don't know. Those are normally added to the tanker truck when it's filled at the terminal.

[yaris2010RS]

wow, this is news to me, i have never seen a shell truck at an esso or anything of the such

[b_hickman11]

^^ That's weird because mobil has their own tankers that I see refueling mobil and nowhere else. And are claims of additives(v-power, techron, etc) all false then?

I haven't seen any Mobil tankers in years, but there is a Mobil station on every corner. Not for sure about the claims. They could very well be false. Remember, the companies don't tell you how much additives they are actually putting in. They could add 1 oz. of additive to a 3000 gallon tank and that would make their claim be true.

[R2D2]

You are correct Yaris. The gasoline is the same but the additive package of the particular brand of gasoline is added to the gas before it is delivered to the station.

Shell and Chevron for example are top tier gasolines. If a top tier brand sign is displayed it is required to meet top tier gas standards.

More info here: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

[b_hickman11]

You are correct Yaris. The gasoline is the same but the additive package of the particular brand of gasoline is added to the gas before it is delivered to the station.

Shell and Chevron for example are top tier gasolines. If a top tier brand sign is displayed it is required to meet top tier gas standards.

More info here: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.html

I use to work at a gas station and when I would get a delivery, I would check out the Bill of Landing. On the paper work I was able to see where the gas came from and which gas station the driver's delivered to before and after my station. For the most part the gas came from my local refinery, which was about 5 miles away. The same gas would be delivered to Mobil, Shell, Exxon, Conoco-Phillips, etc. So the driver did not put the additive into his tanker before delivering the gas unless all of those companies were using the same exact formula.

The website you posted says, "In addition, all gasoline outlets carrying the brand of the approved retailer must meet the TOP TIER standards. This does not mean that the retailer has to use the brand of gas that they advertise on the top of the building. For example, a Shell station doesn't have to use Shell gas. If the Shell station decides to use Shell gas, then that gas must then meet the standards.

[yaris2010RS]

For example, a Shell station doesn't have to use Shell gas. If the Shell station decides to use Shell gas, then that gas must then meet the standards.

so in otherwords...ure saying its like going to walmart and in a random black bag it says pair of socks. u buy it(for a fucked up price) and when u get home u infact realize it is underware.....


and u are saying that i cannot complain because they dont have to supply as advertised.....


not saying ure wrong and i know my example is bad but if its true, that is very unreasonable and wrong what they do......

[ddongbap]

*munch munch munch*

[b_hickman11]

so in otherwords...ure saying its like going to walmart and in a random black bag it says pair of socks. u buy it(for a fucked up price) and when u get home u infact realize it is underware.....


and u are saying that i cannot complain because they dont have to supply as advertised.....


not saying ure wrong and i know my example is bad but if its true, that is very unreasonable and wrong what they do......

The example you gave(socks and underwear) would mean you were wanting to buy gas but instead you were given diesel. I didn't say you cannot complain. They advertise their additive package but they don't tell you where the actual gas is coming from. After the tanker leaves, the retailer could pour 1 oz of their "advertised additive" into their tanks and this would make their advertising become true. They never say that they are using gas processed by their brand. They just advertise the gas they sell as having a particular additive in it. Also they don't tell you what the ratio of gas to additive is.

[yaris2010RS]

very very true.... and i had realized my example was a bad one....

so now, take for example the shell commercials that dont talk so much about additives but more fuel quality overall and a cleaner burning and longer engine life overall..... how can they make those clames if in fact shell gas is the same as esso??

if anyone is wondering y i am picking on shell and esso, that is because in ontario(GTA) 3 main companies, shell, esso and petrocanada.....doubt anyone from the states has heard of petrocanada... lol

[b_hickman11]

very very true.... and i had realized my example was a bad one....

so now, take for example the shell commercials that dont talk so much about additives but more fuel quality overall and a cleaner burning and longer engine life overall..... how can they make those clames if in fact shell gas is the same as esso??

if anyone is wondering y i am picking on shell and esso, that is because in ontario(GTA) 3 main companies, shell, esso and petrocanada.....doubt anyone from the states has heard of petrocanada... lol

They can say what they want to say and get away with. When you are the biggest industry in the world you can do anything you want.

[TheSilkySmooth]

You are correct Yaris. The gasoline is the same but the additive package of the particular brand of gasoline is added to the gas before it is delivered to the station.

Shell and Chevron for example are top tier gasolines. If a top tier brand sign is displayed it is required to meet top tier gas standards.

More info here: http://www.toptiergas.com/retailers.htmlTop tier quals give me no comfort at all. Who is going to police the stations? Nobody. Its russian roulette buying gas around here - you never know what your going to get. The gas HAS to come from the same terminal - oTW there is no way logistically to distribute the fuel. The diff will be in the detergents IF they are properly splash blended. This doesnt happen right most of the time given the way my car responds to the fuel. I DO see Irving stations getting filled from Irving tank trucks mainly though. Everything else is JP Noonan trucking or Abannaki(sp?)

[TheSilkySmooth]

Motor fuel is supposed to have a minimum level of detergents added per federal regulations ( or provide a spec levekl of deposit accumulation in operation on a test engine )- but no one is watching the pot and anything goes. Most e10 has a good amount of water in it since the ethanol sponges up any water in the UG storage tank. I worked at a gas station and we used to have about 3" of water in the tank. U put a tell-tale putty on the measuring stick when you stick the tanks and it indicates water. The problem with ethanol it absorbs all the water. I wouldnt want to be the first guy buyng gas a day after a station converted to e10 fuel! In fast my mothers car dies and will not start a couple months ago - thats when FL went to e10. She only gets gas a couple times a year since she doesnt drive much at all.

Help with fuel problems - If you are concerned that you may have been the victim of a fuel problem wheer you have to replace filter or injectors you should test the fuel for water and alcohol level - there are test kits available - lemme go scare up a URL ....
http://www.fuel-testers.com/ethanol_engine_precautions.html

[yaris2010RS]

i've looked into this a bit more and found that like coke and pepsi, its all owned by the same company. here in canada, esso, petrocanada and pioneer gas stations are owned but the petrocanada company. i dont know about shell.....

[b_hickman11]

i've looked into this a bit more and found that like coke and pepsi, its all owned by the same company. here in canada, esso, petrocanada and pioneer gas stations are owned but the petrocanada company. i dont know about shell.....

Coke and Pepsi are not owned by the same company. Coke is owned by The Coca-Cola Company and Pepsi is owned by PepsiCo.

[Lazerdot]

This has been an interesting thread.

Started about Synthetic and Petroleum oil and is now about soft drinks.

[Yaris Hilton]

I wish I'd had a camera years ago when I saw a sign in front of a convenience store that said:
"WINE--BEER--KEROSENE"

[1stToyota]

This has been an interesting thread.

Started about Synthetic and Petroleum oil and is now about soft drinks.

+1

You noticed that too? :rolleyes:

[yaris2010RS]

really, i will have to check my stuff, i swear on the back of a pepsi can it says Coca-Cola Company....i could be wrong, didn't think it was right. and the soft drink part was jsut an example. i do in fact find the gas situation very interesting.

[ddongbap]

Coke and Pepsi are also distributors. They might have their logo on things so it shows who's distributing them?

[b_hickman11]

I wish I'd had a camera years ago when I saw a sign in front of a convenience store that said:
"WINE--BEER--KEROSENE"

We still have a few of those around here in the Redneck parts of East Tx.

[TheSilkySmooth]

Our corner store keeps the nightcrawlers and red wigglers in with the potato salad.

Soda Pop? I used to like Royal Crown and Jolt!