Would an All-Electric yaris be cheaper in the long run?

[captainm27]

Imagine if Toyota decided to come out with an all-electric Yaris: They would remove the engine and the transmission (the two most expensive parts) and replace it with two eletric motors (one on each front wheel) and a battery to power it.

Since now you don't need oil changes, trans fulid changes, coolant changes, timing belts, etc, and all the things associated with an engine/trans configuration, would the total overall cost be cheaper? Would the oil companines just sit idly by with something like this?

What do you think?

[roxy1]

no way to know without knowing the starting price, which i expect would be considerably higher than a gas engine yaris.

[BailOut]

A lot more is done away with in an EV versus a fossil fuel burner than just the engine and transmission. Add to that all emmission controls, the entire exhaust system, etc. The Yaris already has electronic steering so that's taken care of.

You can also factor in less than half the operating costs of a fossil fuel burner, and better than breaking even if you have to replace the battery pack every 5 years.

With all that taken into account they are even, and with mass production the pricing would become attractive. If you don't have to pay for the battery pack then it could be priced $5k higher than its dirtier counterpart and still be a smart purchase.

[firebob]

With the rising cost of power would it pay off?
Would the US power grid support even 10% of the population having electric cars?
Would having electric cars truly reduce the demand on oil with most of our power coming form oil?

[BailOut]

With the rising cost of power would it pay off?
All energy costs are going up, not just electricity. I paid $3/gallon to fill up yesterday.


Would the US power grid support even 10% of the population having electric cars?
Yes, it would, and then some. Current estimates are that the grid can handle 40-46% EV adoption, and the cost to expand that capacity is a fraction of what we spent to dot our landscape with gas stations and refineries.


Would having electric cars truly reduce the demand on oil with most of our power coming form oil?
I'm not sure what you mean as none of our electricity comes from oil. It comes from coal, natural gas, nuclear, geothermal, hydro, solar and wind. If you meant coal, study after study has shown that even if your electricity comes from a coal plant - by far the dirtiest source - it is 70% cleaner from well to wheel than gasoline.

[Sirius-XM]

In the Northeast, the power grid can barely handle the load of home air conditioning during mild heat waves. I am sure that the Northeast is not unique. Electric is also not cheap in this area

I am not a big fan of the concept of the electric car. While the car is clean the methods of producing electric often isn't. I think the best solution are small cars and hybrids. I would go a step further and suppport laws that say if you want an SUV or large vehicle it has to be a hybrid.
__________________

“Many laws protecting environmental quality have promoted liberty by securing property against the destructive trespass of pollution” — Ronald Reagan

[scape]

to OP: i don't believe so. batteries are just too expensive, and need replacing too often. and in similar thoughts, think about what it takes just to create a big enough battery for a car application, it's like solar panels-- in the end it takes more energy to make than you can receive from it. that's just my take on it.
now a diesel-hybrid yaris would rock, imo, it'd also probably be around 16-18k$ or more, when all is said and done :\

[BailOut]

to OP: i don't believe so. batteries are just too expensive, and need replacing too often. and in similar thoughts, think about what it takes just to create a big enough battery for a car application, it's like solar panels-- in the end it takes more energy to make than you can receive from it. that's just my take on it.
now a diesel-hybrid yaris would rock, imo, it'd also probably be around 16-18k$ or more, when all is said and done :\
I cannot identify a single true or accurate statement in your post. Rather than dissect and refute it, I encourage you to spend the time and effort to educate yourself properly, from proper sources. This is also the perfect opportunity for you to learn how to investigate the funding source of what you read.

Follow the money to find the (un)truth.

[captainm27]

Thanks for your responses. Bailout, I see that you are pretty optimistic about such a possibility. In a similar way, I was thinking the same like you, in seeing how an electric only yaris would be able to get rid of much of the components needed just to run a normal gas engine. I almost forgot about the battery life though. I would think that those batteries on a car will most certainly have to be replaced down the road. Now I know that the Prius and similar hybrids are still running good, even after the old ones have been going on for 10 years or so, but that's because, from what I read, they are never full charged nor depleted, but kept between a 40% - 70%. But the way I see it, they never use the full capacity of the battery. Hmm....just my thoughts.

[scape]

I cannot identify a single true or accurate statement in your post. Rather than dissect and refute it, I encourage you to spend the time and effort to educate yourself properly, from proper sources. This is also the perfect opportunity for you to learn how to investigate the funding source of what you read.

Follow the money to find the (un)truth.

I'm sorry you cannot see the reality of the situation. If a full-on electric car could exist at a reasonable price, it would. Do you not agree? Battery technology has a ways to go before it is anything close to realistic for electric-only cars. Even the total cost of ownership on a Prius outweighs that of a Yaris.
I find no reason to defend myself, but have you done an ounce of research on this matter? Put your pride and arrogance away and see the situation for what it is, not what it could be.

[cali yaris]

If a full-on electric car could exist at a reasonable price, it would. Do you not agree?

I think it's the willingness of BUYERS that determine the market, not the will of the manufacturers (who are driven by profit). Electric cars just don't make sense for most car owners, until they have longer ranges and quicker recharges. This has nothing to do with cost over time -- simply whether it's convenient to have a car like that or not.

Actually, as often as I disagree with bailout (and call him out for unsubstantiated opinions), I believe he IS educated in this area, and I agree with most of his points.

A couple of additional thoughts:
*you can add smog inspections to your list of expenses saved.
*The yaris doesn't need power steering at all, less energy used by the system -- and I prefer it without.
*there is a greater cost for regenerative braking technology (and more parts in that system) on the other side.

Funny thing about forums - no one ever bothers to cite their source. So, either we agree to disagree, or we ALL cite what we base our opinions on. I doubt the latter is going to happen, so how about a little mutual respect?

Telling someone it's a great time for them to learn (bailout) is sarcastic - so is calling someone prideful and arrogant (scape). In what way does that serve the argument, or the OP's question?

[1NZYaris1]

Then you also need to take into account the latest news from Japan on Electric cars .
Are you ready for this
as of Now All electric cars that are produced in Japan
must be fitted with external speakers , that produce a sound of what ever
ie running water , Chirpping Birds etc
so people can hear the cars coming :eek:
This is due to ,the many pedestrian deaths cuased by electric cars , been seen and not heard
and people steping out in front of them

[cali yaris]

^ that sounds peaceful! - would be kind of entertaining at the drag strip, too. :tongue:

[firebob]

I read an article last year saying that for such a load to be added to our power grid we would have to go back to load shedding and electric cars would be one of the items that would be shed. I’ll try to dig up the article some time to night.

I do have a link that might help someone visualize the power grid.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=110997398


as of Now All electric cars that are produced in Japan
must be fitted with external speakers , that produce a sound of what ever
ie running water , Chirpping Birds etc
so people can hear the cars coming :eek:

My bone stock yaris is about unheard as it is.

[roxy1]

[QUOTE=BailOut;433432] If you don't have to pay for the battery pack then it could be priced $5k higher than its dirtier counterpart and still be a smart purchase.[/QUOTE

thats the rub. if it were only $5k more, that would be fantastic. im afraid it will be at least $7-$10k more than its gas engine counterpart.

[firebob]

Level 1 requires a dedicated 120, 20 amp GFCI outlet
Level 2 requires a dedicated 240, 40 amp GFCI outlet

I could see where a power company would want a level 2 charger to be able to be dropped form the system liked they used to do with electric water heaters in some parts of the country.

The more power you use the more they charge per a KWH. Unless there were some other tax incentives or something I still don’t see where it would pay off.

[cali yaris]

most charging would occur at night, during lower consumption periods. Sounds alright to me

[firebob]

most charging would occur at night, during lower consumption periods. Sounds alright to me

Are you saying that you would not just come home and plug it up or would you come home and hope you plug it in right before you go to bed. I’m sure unless you were going right back out you would plug it in when you got home so no I don’t think most of the charging would be at night; I think most of it would be when there was already a high demand on the power grid from every one getting home from work cooking dinner and taking showers.

[rningonfumes]

Working off of Garm's statement, I would believe they will add some computerization so that people won't need to go back out to their garages to flip the switch, no?

[why?]

Like most water heaters, ev's could easily be programmed to charge at a certain time.

The biggest argument against them has not been presented yet: Range. Even the Chevy Volt, supposedly the most advanced hybrid, can't go squat on battery only. Battery technology is not even close to where it needs to be for ev's to be useful. A range of at least 200 miles on a charge at maximum of 8 hours is necessary.

And then price would be an option. Most sources say no car manufacturer selling a hybrid is making money, and even the most optomistic say that Toyota is just finally starting to see a profit from Prius sales.

How crazy was the GM EV1 lease? Like $600 or more a month? That's insane.

Electric cars existed in the 1800's, then were dropped for gasoline. Technology isn't quite what it needs to be for them to be a reality yet.

And then, say the range is decent, the price is alright, you have to calculate electricity costs and all that other good stuff.

And, no the grid is not up to it. Like up north, when we in Florida just had our coldest days, the electric company was on the radio begging people to conserve electricity, and they still almost had to resort to rolling blackouts.

[rningonfumes]

And on those rolling black outs, what time of the day was it?

[captainm27]

I am surprised that with all the advances in technology we have today, that battery technology seems to be at a standstill. I remember when 10 years ago the average new laptop would last for 2 hours. The same still holds true today. If you buy your average HP or Dell, you'll still get only about 2 hours of use out of it. I wonder if other factors (such as greed and evil) have kept battery technology from really growing.

[firebob]

Working off of Garm's statement, I would believe they will add some computerization so that people won't need to go back out to their garages to flip the switch, no?

I can see the new threads of I plugged up my car but the thing didn’t charge. But they didn’t understand what they did wrong.


I would like to see a flex fuel generator installed into an electric car with a small tank. It would be ok to reduce the size of the battery pack for the genset but with the genset being able to run in it’s prim RMP range.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Someone here converted their Yaris LB to an all electric car, right? Can't remember who tho.

[cali yaris]

when there was already a high demand on the power grid from every one getting home from work cooking dinner and taking showers.

That's not the highest demand, it's air conditioning and business power usage during the day. Check your local utility for what their "peak hours" are. Usually over by 7pm.

[scape]

I wonder if other factors (such as greed and evil) have kept battery technology from really growing.

Big companies are pouring big money into battery technologies; I think greed is what keeps entrepreneurs and these companies in the mix of trying out new battery technologies, pushing things in new directions because they want that big payoff.

[scape]

That's not the highest demand, it's air conditioning and business power usage during the day. Check your local utility for what their "peak hours" are. Usually over by 7pm.

In south florida I remember peak hours being evening (5-9pm) b/c everyone is home using their shoddy AC units, lights are on, and watching TV. That and weekends; they called them brownouts. Though I don't know if that coincides with FPL's (electric company) version of peak usage.

[MUSKOKA800]

Then you also need to take into account the latest news from Japan on Electric cars .
Are you ready for this
as of Now All electric cars that are produced in Japan
must be fitted with external speakers , that produce a sound of what ever
ie running water , Chirpping Birds etc
so people can hear the cars coming :eek:
This is due to ,the many pedestrian deaths cuased by electric cars , been seen and not heard
and people steping out in front of them


I'll take mine with a recording of an F1 car at full song. That should get their attention. :thumbup:

[why?]

I am surprised that with all the advances in technology we have today, that battery technology seems to be at a standstill. I remember when 10 years ago the average new laptop would last for 2 hours. The same still holds true today. If you buy your average HP or Dell, you'll still get only about 2 hours of use out of it. I wonder if other factors (such as greed and evil) have kept battery technology from really growing.

Battery technology is not at a standstill at all, they are trying and figuring out new things.

You can't compare it with laptops. A brand new laptop today makes a laptop a decade ago look like a rock. In the computer industry, battery technology is struggling to keep up with the demands from newer power sucking computer technology.

People keep saying that battery technology for cars is just about to hit a breakthrough, and become truly usable for the mainstream. Although they've been saying that for quite a while.

[jambo101]

Sounds like an option i would consider if 100% of my driving was local,but when doing trips of 500 miles or more how far you going to get before you need to plug it in? and where will you plug it in? and how long will you have to wait till its charged?

[captainm27]

Battery technology is not at a standstill at all, they are trying and figuring out new things.

You can't compare it with laptops. A brand new laptop today makes a laptop a decade ago look like a rock. In the computer industry, battery technology is struggling to keep up with the demands from newer power sucking computer technology.

People keep saying that battery technology for cars is just about to hit a breakthrough, and become truly usable for the mainstream. Although they've been saying that for quite a while.

True, I know what you mean. But at the same time, we've got Netbooks using Atom processors, which barely use the energy that laptops used a decade ago, but they still get only about 2 hours charge.

[jambo101]

Wonder what ever happened to the research on nuclear powered cars?
A small bead of uranium powering a steam based power unit might be more feasible than batteries.

[BailOut]

Wonder what ever happened to the research on nuclear powered cars?
A small bead of uranium powering a steam based power unit might be more feasible than batteries.
Using nuclear material to power cars will never happen for 3 reasons:

1) There is a highly finite amount of Uranium and its radioactive cousins in the world.

2) The containment and cooling systems needed for an on-board reactor would be prohibitively heavy.

3) Considering that our use of nuclear fuel is just 5% efficient it is nowhere near as efficient as a battery (70%), and it produces non-recyclable, incredibly toxic and dangerous waste.

[daf62757]

I think common sense is that electric cars could be cheaper, but the system in place right now can't support it. We need many more nuclear power plants online to make such a transfer feasible. Coal plants are in the sights of this present administration with no plans for nuclear to replace the coal plants that will be taken out of commission to comply with the cap and trade legislation. Unless there is some real movement towards increasing the power reserve, I don't think electric cars are going to have any real momentum.

I would prefer to see natural gas replace gas. All cars could be altered to accept natural gas and gas stations could handle both.

[Sidicas]

I am surprised that with all the advances in technology we have today, that battery technology seems to be at a standstill. I remember when 10 years ago the average new laptop would last for 2 hours. The same still holds true today. If you buy your average HP or Dell, you'll still get only about 2 hours of use out of it. I wonder if other factors (such as greed and evil) have kept battery technology from really growing.

Bad comparison...Laptops are a lot smaller and also a lot lighter weight than they were 10 years ago..

Battery tech has definitely evolved by quite a bit.. Netbooks are hitting over 8 hours of battery life, most modern laptops nowadays have beefy 3D video chips that you just wouldn't find in laptops 10 years ago..

I just don't see electric cars being cheaper than gas, I've run the numbers here in NY.. And it turns out that electricity from Niagara mohawk is so expensive here that electric cars wouldn't even break even until gas hits over $5.00 a gallon, assuming that the electric car costs the same as the gas car.. If we as the USA, go electric, we NEED to get those electric costs down and that's likely going to mean nuclear power plants and lots of them..

People love to push the "green" electricity like windmills, solar, and hydroelectric, but anybody who's been living off of such electricity sources knows that the costs for "green" electricity is just not worth it.. Renewable energy is just not reliable at all.. People justify them with statements like.. "Well, in a 100 years, these solar panels will pay for themself! ".. Well, not if you have to keep replacing them every 10 years because the acidity in bird poo ruins them.. Or if your windmill farm gets destroyed by a tornado or hurricane every 5 years... Or if a droubt hits or those darn beavers reroute your water source for your hydro-electric plant.. And then you can't take out the beavers because PETA comes after you, and you can't run your hydro plant because of the beavers stealing your water, and you can't run non-renewable because of the environmentalists.. We screw ourselves over every day..

Honestly, I'm very surprised electricity isn't a lot higher in price than it is now.. It must be those people down south running the coal and gas power plants that are keeping our grid together... I'm running off of hydro-electric power and paying some of the highest electricity bills across the entire united states. Needless to say, Niagara mohawk is STILL struggling to deliver reliable renewable energy from Niagara falls despite all the money they get from the Candian government, the USA government, and my own wallet.


/rant..

[Astroman]

People love to push the "green" electricity like windmills, solar, and hydroelectric, but anybody who's been living off of such electricity sources knows that the costs for "green" electricity is just not worth it.. Renewable energy is just not reliable at all.. People justify them with statements like.. "Well, in a 100 years, these solar panels will pay for themself! ".. Well, not if you have to keep replacing them every 10 years because the acidity in bird poo ruins them.. Or if your windmill farm gets destroyed by a tornado or hurricane every 5 years... Or if a droubt hits or those darn beavers reroute your water source for your hydro-electric plant.. And then you can't take out the beavers because PETA comes after you, and you can't run your hydro plant because of the beavers stealing your water, and you can't run non-renewable because of the environmentalists.. We screw ourselves over every day..

Wow.... Your statement is wrong in so many ways. I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

Our wind farms are not subject to hurricanes, that is strictly coastal areas, and nor do we get cyclones. Those wind farms are put in with agreement (and nice compensation) to grazing land owners.

Eelectric cars might not be cost wise for all areas, but here in the Pacific Nortwest they certainly are. We even have a outfit here in the area that does plug-in conversions for hybrids. So please, save us the myth that hurricanes and beavers make "green" energy viable. We've been doing it here for over 60 years, long before Fox News, and the proof is in our low electricity rates and our awesome clean air.

[bzinn 1]

my buddy at work bought a datsun last year,not sure but think it is the B210......he got the electric motor and batteries so far,and most the wires and other stuff.......no tranny as the motor bolts up to drive line via a converter of some sort.....

his total investment is under $6000.....and he figures the car will do 12second 1/4miles.......

there are people out there doing electric conversions all over and it is a really cool alternative and honestly the parts are fairly comparabel to fossil fuel drive tranes.......


Electric yaris I would buy......honestly this is about the funnest car I have owned,takes no gas,drives forever,pretty well built,has enough creature comforts to keep me happy,cheap,and looks cool with minor mods liek wheels and tint......

[BailOut]

Well said, Astroman. Over 70% of our electricity comes from local geothermal plants, which is just about as sustainable as energy gets. We have less power outages here by far than when we lived in north Texas, where the power is all from coal and natural gas. It is more expensive here but it has nothing to do with the source, but rather with the high cost of upgrading and modernizing the State-wide grid, mostly in an effort to better protect southern Nevada from the shenanigans of California's utilities.

Speaking of southern Nevada, the Hoover Dam has been producing electricity continuously for almost 70 years, having never required any work beyond typical maintenance. We also have the Nevada Solar One project near Boulder City, which is the largest concentrated solar power plant in the world. By itself it produces enough electricity during the hottest parts of the summer days when everyone is running their air conditioners that no extra power has to be brought in from anywhere else, which also saved our State from some of the more expensive grid upgrades that were in discussion.

A neighboring town gets 100% of their power from a flume station alongside the Truckee River which has been in operation for more than 50 years.

Next year a series of wind turbines are being placed in a nearby area that was extensively mined throughout the mid to late 1800s. That whole area is considered too polluted and unstable for any sort of other use, but the energy they will provide will peak in the evening nearly year round, when local winds get so strong that trucks and trailers are only allowed on certain highways. The energy they will produce is expected to offset most, if not all, of the 30% electricity that our geothermal plants have difficulty meeting in the evenings.

One of the largest casinos here in Reno has their own geothermal tap which provides the vast majority of the electricity, heating and hot water for their entire operations including the hotel units. For an initial investment of $2mil it has been saving them over $3mil per year in energy costs,

In other words, there's no reason at all to have so much venom for sustainable and renewable energy. Not only does it work, but it works extremely well, and does not harm our planet's resources or atmosphere at nearly the levels that dirty energy sources do.

In fact, sustainable and renewable energy works so well for us that in the last 2 years we've been able to stop not just one but three coal plant permits from being granted within our State while still being able to comfortably accommodate 15% growth for the next decade to twelve years, which is actually more than double the projections for growth.

[daf62757]

Wow.... Your statement is wrong in so many ways. I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

Our wind farms are not subject to hurricanes, that is strictly coastal areas, and nor do we get cyclones. Those wind farms are put in with agreement (and nice compensation) to grazing land owners.

Eelectric cars might not be cost wise for all areas, but here in the Pacific Nortwest they certainly are. We even have a outfit here in the area that does plug-in conversions for hybrids. So please, save us the myth that hurricanes and beavers make "green" energy viable. We've been doing it here for over 60 years, long before Fox News, and the proof is in our low electricity rates and our awesome clean air.

Too bad we all don't live in your neighborhood......but we can't. And the country has to live and make energy choices based on the average, not the exception of your neck of the woods. And what does Fox news have to do with it?

You should have started your pontification with the qualification of "In my opinion" because that is all it is. Your opinion.

[Sidicas]

Wow.... Your statement is wrong in so many ways. I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

I've never heard of a single renewable energy based power station that didn't need government funds to be competitive, but I don't doubt that there's probably a few of them out there.

Not everybody is "lucky" enough to live along fault lines where there is tons of free geothermal energy to tap into.. Of course, that's kind of like having an oil well in your backyard and not having to worry about the global market's gas prices..

If the power infrastructure existed such that it was possible for you to sell your cheap electricity to us people here in NY, you could kiss your cheap electricity prices goodbye..

We're paying 17 cents a kilowatt hour here..

[why?]

lol. the pacific northwest is a unique situation. They got there hydroelectrics way before it was cool to be an ecoterrorist and attack anything that would make life better. It wouldn't have a chance in hell of happenining now.

Geothermal is something that can be more widely used. However, like the majority of renewable resources, it has limited uses and areas.

And don't even start about wind farms and solar. Solar energy for the nation simply can't happen, the technology isn't there. And windmills are a nice idea, but extremely limited in their uses.

The simple fact is that if it could be done to compete in the marketplace, people would be doing it.

Even when it can, the greenies come out and start attacking anyone who wants to. So much for actually wanting anything... Like in the Cape Cod wind farm situation, when you push comes to shove, they just want to own your lives, and nothing more.

[Astroman]

Too bad we all don't live in your neighborhood......but we can't. And the country has to live and make energy choices based on the average, not the exception of your neck of the woods. And what does Fox news have to do with it?

You should have started your pontification with the qualification of "In my opinion" because that is all it is. Your opinion.


lol, those are the facts, not my opinion. Except for the fox news jab, your statement about beavers, epa and hurricanes is something you would hear from a faux news talking head.

People did fight the windfarms here, but only because they said it ruined the view even though they were built on hills that only had grass and a few sage brush. And for the killing of birds, my friend only saw one in a year on a 50+ windfarm, and there was no evidence it was killed by the windmachine.

Sadly there isn't a one-size fits all for everyone. Our utility power here is publicly owned so we get great rates. Privatized power is where the rates really start to climb and reliability becomes an issue.

The bottom line electric is cleaner here than any other form of energy and is cheap, renewable, and clean. Making electric vehicles a real viable option :thumbsup:

http://www.cbr.washington.edu/crisp/hydro/ The two dams in my area are both non-federal projects, Rocky Reach and Rock Island Dams.

[cali yaris]

electric is cleaner here than any other form of energy and is cheap, renewable, and clean

It has the potential to be renewable and clean, but it is not at this time, so I have to correct you there.

I'm a big fan of modernizing our grid and adding as many renewable resources to it as possible. I also read in a science journal that a solar grid 100x100 miles in size would produce enough electric power for the entire country.

I know that's BIG, but it's not that big -- an encouraging statistic in my opinion.

[talnlnky]

it'd be cool if they could figure a way to make solar panels more efficient... I believe the efficiencies are in the teens.

If there was a bolt on Electric motor which allowed for electric, or gas operation I would totally do that. I don't want to go full electric though because of the 470mile one way commute I do from time to time. If I could do the first hour or two of that soley on electric power, and then switch to gas... that'd be cool. Would allow me to go 70mph and still do the whole trip without stopping for gas. Easily shave off 10-15 minutes.

[Sidicas]

I also read in a science journal that a solar grid 100x100 miles in size would produce enough electric power for the entire country.
The most efficient and best solar panels that you can buy right now are about $30 for a panel the size of your fist... It'd take 250 million of them to fill up a single square mile.. Multiply that by 100 miles in one direction and then another 100 miles in the other direction to get 100x100 square miles..

You're looking at 2 trillion 500 billion fist sized solar panels at $30 a piece.. 75 trillion dollars, that's over 6 times the current national debt.. Does that still sound reasonable? How about if you factor in that our power demands are growing rapidly...

[Zaphod]

I doubt there is enough demand for Toyota to produce a profitable all electric short ranger commuter vehicle.

[toyo]

don't really know about how the government in the us finances electricity, but in my country it is all privately owned, and it would not benefit anyone to have an electric car, unless the government got in to the electric bussiness and stop thinking about profit over global warming =(

[TheSilkySmooth]

check this
http://www.commutercars.com/home.html

[DevilGirl]

now a diesel-hybrid yaris would rock, imo, it'd also probably be around 16-18k$ or more, when all is said and done :\

A diesel hybrid would be the only hybrid I would even consider. I find it sad that, on average, I see better fuel economy in my all gas Yaris than is seen in some of the hybrids out there... (I commute mostly highway, so the hybrid thing really isn't an option, as it costs more and does no better than what I have).

The biggest argument against them has not been presented yet: Range. Even the Chevy Volt, supposedly the most advanced hybrid, can't go squat on battery only. Battery technology is not even close to where it needs to be for ev's to be useful. A range of at least 200 miles on a charge at maximum of 8 hours is necessary.

And then, say the range is decent, the price is alright, you have to calculate electricity costs and all that other good stuff.

Range would be the killer for me. I like being able to go 3 days commuting without filling up my Yaris. Can your electric vehicle do that? Once it can, then I'd consider it.

Sounds like an option i would consider if 100% of my driving was local,but when doing trips of 500 miles or more how far you going to get before you need to plug it in? and where will you plug it in? and how long will you have to wait till its charged?

Where to "refill" would be the biggest issue. I can see the electric vehicle being a local commuter car only. And that's it. And I'm talking less than 20 miles one way to work.

I live in central washington with the lowest rates in the country thanks to hydroelectric dams (which have been here working great for 60+ years, with an average of 2 power outages a year mostly due to weather or a raccoon getting into the transformers) and windfarms. We actually have too much of the stuff, and have to sell it to the rest of the state, parts of Oregon and Idaho. And central WA is a desert, our rivers are fed by snowpack. No problems with drought as the mighty Columbia roars on. Our electricity rate is about .02 cents per kWh so electric cars are very viable here. However our other energy costs are on average higher than the rest of the country. The last couple of times I was down in California their gas & diesel was cheaper.

Our wind farms are not subject to hurricanes, that is strictly coastal areas, and nor do we get cyclones. Those wind farms are put in with agreement (and nice compensation) to grazing land owners.

Eelectric cars might not be cost wise for all areas, but here in the Pacific Nortwest they certainly are. We even have a outfit here in the area that does plug-in conversions for hybrids. So please, save us the myth that hurricanes and beavers make "green" energy viable. We've been doing it here for over 60 years, long before Fox News, and the proof is in our low electricity rates and our awesome clean air.

I believe it's been said already about different parts of the country not really being able to utilize the same types of renewable energy. Again, climate and other environmental factors make this not really possible in certain areas. But that's wonderful that your area can. Keep on doin it!

Until such time as this country/government can actually produce viable, inexpensive vehicles, I'll stick with my gasser, and do just fine with it.

[BailOut]

Range would be the killer for me. I like being able to go 3 days commuting without filling up my Yaris. Can your electric vehicle do that? Once it can, then I'd consider it.
Because plugging in a cord is just soooo much work! :rolleyes:

[why?]

Because plugging in a cord is just soooo much work! :rolleyes:

Because no one travels more than 40 miles a day... no not ever, no one has a daily commute that long, never mind wanting to do chores, pickup groceries, maybe go out after work... that absolutely never happens...:wink:

[cali yaris]

sarcasm vs. sarcasm = fail

electric vehicles will certainly become popular when their ranges are extended, say to about 250-300 miles?

I'll get one sooner, I have a short commute and like I said, when I put in solar panels for my house, the "gas" is FREE.

[Sidicas]

Wow, just for fun..
I ran some numbers..
I converted electricity, food, and fuel into a universal energy amount and then computed the cost of that energy amount for the amount of energy you get..


Electricity ($0.21 a kilowatt hour NY)
1 kWh = $0.21
1 kWh = 3600000 J
1cal=4184 joules
1 kWh = 860 kcal
1000kcal / 860 kcal = 1.16279
1000kcal for $0.24

Food ($1 for a Whopper Jr.)
WhopperJr = 370 kcal
370 kcal for $1.00 (Whopper Jr.)
1000kcal / 370 = 2.7027
1000kcal for $2.70

Fuel ($2.83 a gallon)
1gal = 31mil cals
1gal = 31,000 kcal
1gal = $2.83
1000kcal / 31,000 kcal = 0.032258
1000kcal for $0.09

Conclusion: By FAR, gasoline is still the cheaper way to go here in NY.. Feel free to plug in your own numbers to find out how close electricity gets to fuel costs... Interesting conclusion is that food (even junk food) is very expensive for the small amount of energy you get out of it.

Really puts things in perspective doesn't it.. All those people who consume ridiculous amounts of calories and spend every day in the gym is just wasting tons of precious expensive energy (food)..

Edit:
1 pound of body fat = 3500 kcal
3500kcal / 370kcal (whopper Jrs) = 9.46 Whopper Jrs. in a pound of fat
Value of pound of body fat in food energy = $9.46 per pound of body fat.

Value of pound of body fat if energy is converted into raw electricity
(impossible 100% efficiency assumed): ($0.24)*(3.5) = $0.84

Value of pound of body fat if energy is converted into gasoline (impossible)
($0.09)*(3.5) = $0.32


Can somebody please explain why we're putting the most expensive source of energy (food/ethanol) into gasoline, in order to save gasoline (the cheapest source of energy)?? I don't know, but when you run the numbers it looks like a really dumb thing to do..