Phantom Grip LSD

[cdydjded]

Im inquiering with Phantom Grip to see if they can produce a unit for the Yaris. I would like some feedback on the interest of this product. Please, if you have never used or installed this product personally, do not critisize it. I know it works, Iv used & installed it myself. It retails for $299. It is a good alternative for a Kaaz/TRD/Cuzco LSD unit which are in the $600-$700 price range. Here is there website if you want to learn more about it: http://www.phantomgrip.com/

[90tsi]

i had this in my 90 talon. it felt like more of a locker than an actually lsd to me. But for the money it is a great alternative. i would get another one for sure if i had the cash

[cali yaris]

good alternative for the money. They weren't going to make one for us when we contacted them over a year ago.

[cdydjded]

Spoke to the owner today, they have a unit already for the Yaris which also fits the xA/xB & Echo. Im making an apointment with them to get the Phantom Grip installed along with a Clutch Masters Stg 1 & possibly a flywheel. We are planning to take photos & videos of the installation. Also before & after results on the 1/4 mile.

[cali yaris]

How does it work?

[RHDVIPbB]

Over the years I have always wondered if this would work on an automatic transmission. If not, guess I will have to swap to manual.

[90tsi]

its not complicated at all kinda simple idea.. the 2 pieces have springs between which applies force outward to both side of the gears if i remember correct.

[cdydjded]

Over the years I have always wondered if this would work on an automatic transmission. If not, guess I will have to swap to manual.

The PG is install in between the spider gears of the differencial. All transmissions have a differencial, manuals & automatics. So yes it will work.......

31681

[cdydjded]

How does it work?

31682

The PG locks the spider gears which in turn transfer traction to both tires instead of one.

[cali yaris]

The PG locks the spider gears which in turn transfer traction to both tires instead of one.

Is this constant, or variable based on load?

[90tsi]

from what i felt in my last car it was a constant.

[kngrsll]

i have never heard a good thing about the phantom grip.

that being said, for that much work, why not install a REAL LSD. There are so many good cheap units on ebay, its ridiculous. i got a 2 way clutch LSD for under $500 from a toyota starlet turbo, this thing is awesome

[bzinn 1]

PG is a constant and honestly by the time you take everything apart to install you may as well of installed the TRD unit which unless you are turning some serious power is not gonna break before the axles do.

There are a few guys that have put the PG in their xA/xB and ended up with it breaking.

[d1nzfe]

can we fit in a obx lsd for 4age ? its selling for <$300.

[thebarber]

i have a friend who's had a pg lsd in his matrix xrs for years now....and now he's supercharged....he's never had a problem with it.

only problem he's had is he eats thru tires.

you see, the PG "LSD" basically locks the differential so that both wheels turn at the same rate. great in a straight line, but obviously, when you turn the outside wheel is travelling farther than the inside wheel so the inside wheel will hop a bit, and thus wear out more quickly. he goes thru a pair of tires every season, iirc.

i don't think id recommend it for the yaris since its a car meant for the corners....

[cali yaris]

i have never heard a good thing about the phantom grip.

I am reading about some failures on the internet. Some of these are probably because people didn't know what they were doing when they installed the unit. But some might be because the PG is just plain rough on the tranny.

[kngrsll]

I have no personal experience so i couldnt say one way or another. I know on the 240 forums, everyone hated them and they never had a good thing to say. Saying that, the 240 was extremely sensitive to an LSD. The S15 helical unit i installed transformed my car, it was soooo good after i installed it, so good in fact, that i oil starved my engine at an autox due to the increase in cornering speeds and grip :(

I think if you want a diff that just locks for drag racing, maybe this thing is fine. if you want it for going faster at autox or track days, id shy away from it. especially, for all that work and money, for a bit more, you can get a really great proven LSD on ebay.

[thebarber]

how is the pg lsd and your tires holding up?

[cali yaris]

six weeks since post #5. update, please

[cfeng]

does anyone else think this is a scam? the only pictures i see on their website are of a poorly machined block of metal.

[cfeng]

Apparently the two halves of the block put pressure on the diff gears. I took a class on optimizing gears, this sounds like bs. Anyways, I'll be happy to machine these for anyone, lets say for ~$200.

http://z31.com/mods/drivetrain/phantomgrip/

[Nexus1155]

I like the enthusiasm, but I see a lot of phantom grips going for under $200 for JDM's. It would be cool to have something new on the market though.

[cdydjded]

does anyone else think this is a scam? the only pictures i see on their website are of a poorly machined block of metal.

39773

[cdydjded]

six weeks since post #5. update, please

6 weeks?, try 9 months! : ). Here is you update, there is nothing to update. I never had it installed. Between family & my business I just had no time to get the car up to them to have it installed. Another factor was that there was not much interested in it here.

The unit works & yes some people have had issues. Some like it, some don't. Its not a scam & the company has been around for over 10yrs. The owner is the same guy that runs the NSCRA.

[xnamerxx]

From what I can tell it works similar to a Detroit locker without the dog teeth gears. If your into drag racing I can see it working great but for taking corners locking the axles isn't always the best solution. For the majority of people a KAAZ or Quaffe or even a Torsen(not sure of the yaris is able to get one of those) would be a better fit.

[cali yaris]

or OS GIKEN :drool:

[xnamerxx]

Looking at the design of the OS GIKEN it appears to be a clutch type differential with no spider gears. I wonder how that kind of design would compare to a eaton diff.
My only fear with a clutch type design is the heat generated during long hard cornering which may overheat the transmission/diff.

Very interesting design though to bad they don't list anything for the Yaris on their site. :frown:

[Jason@SportsCar]

Looking at the design of the OS GIKEN it appears to be a clutch type differential with no spider gears. I wonder how that kind of design would compare to a eaton diff.
My only fear with a clutch type design is the heat generated during long hard cornering which may overheat the transmission/diff.

Very interesting design though to bad they don't list anything for the Yaris on their site. :frown:

They have it... We talked to them (OS Giken USA) last year when we started our project, they did some research and found they were available in Japan. I think Garm has one in stock, if he has not already put it in his car.:burnrubber:

[cali yaris]

They have it -- and I have it. One in my car, and one on the shelf.

This is a superior diff to the Kaaz, I can tell you that.

[Midnight Drifter]

The Phantom Grip sounds great for launching. I always worry something's gonna break when I launch and my wheels hop-hop-hop-hop-hop-hop down the road.

[cali yaris]

^ TRD trans mount will fix that and it installs in 30 minutes.

[Midnight Drifter]

That however wouldn't solve the one-wheel spin that happens in the first place, I imagine?

[rob323]

My only fear with a clutch type design is the heat generated during long hard cornering which may overheat the transmission/diff.

That's never been a problem in any rally car that I know of and certainly hasn't been a problem in mine.

[xnamerxx]

The Rally cars that have been built where I work use torsen differentials with viscous coupling center differentials. But they are only rated to last 3 runs which is better than the motors which are only designed to last 1 run. Making 950 hp on a 2.1l is rough on drivetrain parts.

Ive seen that problem with rear wheel drive cars that don't have differential coolers. I know corvettes, cobras, and vipers have had issues with overheating the diffs when using a clutch based diff.

I prefer the design of helical gear differentials because their designs can bias torque from one wheel to the other as long as you have traction whereas clutch type diffs tend to just limit the slip so to speak. Guess I just prefer the feel of a gear based diff over a clutch based one.

[rob323]

Ive seen that problem with rear wheel drive cars that don't have differential coolers. I know corvettes, cobras, and vipers have had issues with overheating the diffs when using a clutch based diff. Rarely a problem in front wheel drive cars cause the preloads aren't set anywhere near as tight as they are in rear wheel drives.

I prefer the design of helical gear differentials because their designs can bias torque from one wheel to the other as long as you have traction
Yep, and for a street car they are perfect. Far from it in a circuit car or rally car when you are lifting wheels off the ground though.

[rob323]

The Rally cars that have been built where I work use torsen differentials with viscous coupling center differentials. But they are only rated to last 3 runs which is better than the motors which are only designed to last 1 run. Making 950 hp on a 2.1l is rough on drivetrain parts.

:biggrin:Careful there xnamerxx, next you'll be dropping names :wink:

[xnamerxx]

Hahahaha Nah I'm good but if you were very astute with google you should be able to find the car pretty easily, guess I've already said to much.

I guess I just prefer to keep my wheels on tarmac:rolleyes:

[racerb]

I've run Phantom-Grips on my last 2 FWD racecars, had zero issues with them, does take a little more suspension tuning as it some times induces more understeer. But that can be resolved easily with front camber and rear toe adjustment. The best set up is the Phantom-Grip with it's optional green springs, but for a more streetable set-up just use the standard springs.

[speed1]

I heard lots good/bad things on phantom grip lsd.
Does starlet EP82 fit yaris?
I know C52 trans starlet while C54 yaris same lsd.
Once they open gearbox maybe installing 300usd phantom grip can be cheaper than 1000 kaaz or os giken or trd.....?
Thanks.

[thebarber]

PG LSD essentially acts as a detroit locker

both wheels spin at the same speed all the time

you will eat front tires.

[Radou]

the starlet lsd fit in a yaris tranny?????

[speed1]

Why u say locking wheels seem like eating?
It be the opposite.
Just in case one wheel start spinning and eating lsd applies traction.
Then particular PG lsd always gives torque to each wheel the same.
So sure one wheel spin less than witout lsd.
I mean wheels eat less.
Then I don't understand why the more say lsd break front lower arms.
This time too it should be the opposite.
I mean just when outer arm is stressed cause whole torque falls on that wheel lsd retains that torque excess and transfer to inner.
Maybe this continuous bias can stress arms.
In FG lsd case two wheels are locked so same torque and stress amount applied every time every situation.
It mean less stress less break.
I see this way .
Am I mistake?
Thanks.

[thebarber]

itll eat TIRES more

as you make a turn your outside wheel travels farther than your inside wheel. with the differential locked, your inside wheel will skip while trying to cover the same distance as your outside wheel.

i had a friend with a jeep wrangler with a detroit locked rear diff/axle. the inside wheel would chirp on tight corners

i have a friend with a TTE supercharged matrix xrs....had a phantom grip lsd....he goes thru tires at twice as quick as he should. he buys a new set of tires every other year (and that is running dedicated summer and winter tire setups)

PGLSD: great for drag racing, not great for a daily driver

[speed1]

Hello Barber family man.. me too.
Now I know PGLSD eats twice wheels.
Not the problem.
Is lsd really essential?
Has lsd only pros?
Or even cons?
I have low race setup, upper e lower rear bars making chassis stiff and responsive. -1.5 camber, -0.5 front toe, 0.5 rear toe.
Pretty quick on dry, scary on wet.
I can imagine PGLSD pulls car outing corner on gas pedal.
But entering corner braking what PGLSD do?
Does it pull inside or outside????
Does it lock arms 4ever?
Does it last 4ever?
Or it wears:confused:
:thumbdown::eek::eyebulge:

[speed1]

Well :thumbdown:
what I mean unless they serious race drivers winning money to tune and retune and on and on--> etc, lsd really necessary.. PG, TRD, OS, KAAZ..
or better fix own camber e toe e work with gas pedal to drive?
I'm not referring to dirt or cross I'm sorry dunno but street/circuit.
Then some say wheels eating some say axles breaking....
Lsd fired!

[cali yaris]

But entering corner braking what PGLSD do?
Does it pull inside or outside????
Does it lock arms 4ever?
Does it last 4ever?

If you don't know what an LSD does, do some searches and read about its function FIRST.
Maybe someone else on here can, but I cannot take the time to explain all the basics and background information to you.

Is lsd really essential?
Has lsd only pros?
Or even cons?

1. YES, even on a street car (in my opinion)
2. Pros: traction/grip
3. Cons: more frequent maintenance, more expensive gear oil, installation cost

KAAZ is the best value, and I have used it myself.
No reason to pay twice the cost for OS Giken or similar in my opinion unless you are seriously racing all the time.

ps. I would never, ever run a Phantom Grip in one of my cars.

[speed1]

Please Master,
what about F/R camber e toe values
on your several world championships winning racing cars?
Really thank u.

[cali yaris]

on your several world championships winning racing cars?

You must be thinking of someone else, but it sure sounds good!

what about F/R camber e toe values

Sure, negative camber increases the size of your contact patch, on the OUTER wheel. The inner wheel (the one that is losing traction and spinning) is not helped by negative camber. That's why an LSD is so helpful.

Sway bar helps with this goal as well -- I use all three methods together to increase contact patch and grip.

[speed1]

You must be thinking of someone else, but it sure sounds good!



Sure, negative camber increases the size of your contact patch, on the OUTER wheel. The inner wheel (the one that is losing traction and spinning) is not helped by negative camber. That's why an LSD is so helpful.

Sway bar helps with this goal as well -- I use all three methods together to increase contact patch and grip.
So U are using LSD. Which kind? Ways? Currently to turn tight I have to steer and back to steer and back to steer while mid pressing throttle. Can I avoid this trick with LSD? Or I have same understeer than open diff? Does it help brake? When brake in turn u have understeer or oversteer?
.. and the truth comes out!