Which R-comps for Auto-X?

[SilverBack]

So I've been obsessively looking at these 3 in 205/50/15 for a month until my tax refund comes in

1. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+R1

2. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Hoosier&tireModel=A6

3. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A048

My budget is about $200/tire. What do you think? Other suggestions? A soft tire that can last at least 6 runs is optimal. Any serious advice is appreciated :thumbsup:

[Loren]

Three different tires for three different purposes.

The R1 is an old school track tire. It's not bad for track use, and decent for autocross use, but there are definitely cheaper and longer lasting track tires out there. (http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/61-0070.html) And there are definitely way better autocross tires out there if you're looking for ultimate grip.

The Hoosier is the ultimate autocross tire. Grippier than anything, works okay cold and heats up really fast. If you've got the skills and want the edge over your competition, this is the tire. They don't last very long, though.

The Advan is a good long-lasting "better than a street tire" tire. Not on par with the Hoosier, but good. The R888 that I linked above is similar, and cheaper.

You left out the Kumho autox tires, which rank in between the R1 and the Hoosiers. They generally last a long longer than the other two, are grippier than the R1, and have a more modern carcass design.

When you say "last at least 6 runs", I hope you mean "at least 6 events", which any of them should do, even the Hoosiers... though the Hoosiers might be near gone at that point. Also depends on how many runs you get at each event, how long the runs are, and what kind of surface you run on. Not to mention proper alignment, proper inflation, and not doing anything dumb like flat-spotting them.

[Jason@SportsCar]

So I've been obsessively looking at these 3 in 205/50/15 for a month until my tax refund comes in

1. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=BFGoodrich&tireModel=g-Force+R1

2. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Hoosier&tireModel=A6

3. http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+A048

My budget is about $200/tire. What do you think? Other suggestions? A soft tire that can last at least 6 runs is optimal. Any serious advice is appreciated :thumbsup:

None of the above... The R1 is a great tire, we have used them for autox testing (various cars head to head on matching tires so there was one less variable, and we wanted a tire that did not fade) they are great tires but not real quick for autox - they just don't heat up quick enough. We run the R1 on our SSC Nissan Sentra (road racing), 3100lbs, no -camber, and we can not kill these tires off, no matter how hard you push they take it. The R1 won the SCCA Club Racing Runoffs in Touring 3 (Honda S2000) and SSC (Acura Integra) in 2009, and SSB (Civic Si) in 2008. Great road race tire.

The A6 is a really fast tire for autox. But if you have a car with little to no -camber you can use up a pair of fronts in as little as 18 runs. Most of the Mini drivers will flip the tires on the wheels at 15 runs so they can stretch the tires life to 30 runs. If you are going to run in Street Prepared or Street Mod, where you can build a proper suspension you can make these tires last, but a stock class fwd car with little camber will murder them.

The A048 is very much like the Toyo R888, RA1, Pilot Sport Cup and other "track day tires". They all last a long time, but they are slow. Look at any race series, the only time these tires win is when they are the spec tire. They are not fast. They last a long time, but wont get it done. For autox they are one step above a steet tire.

Best bang for the buck, the Kumho V710. Even with the "hot" A6 around, I won four strait SCCA autox natl championships on the V710. The V710 will get double the runs of an A6, and the difference in time is so small you wont need it unless you are going to natls - and even then, if you are driving good enough you won't need the A6 at all. :wink:
Going back to the camber challenged Mini, the V710 is a 60 run tire VS 30 for the A6. On our RX-8 we would give the tires away after we had a 100 runs on them, they were not as fast anymore, but still good for practice.

[cali yaris]

choice may also be determined by wheel choice. Kumho doesn't have what I want for a 13x9 wheel, but Hoosier does in the A6.

[Jason@SportsCar]

choice may also be determined by wheel choice. Kumho doesn't have what I want for a 13x9 wheel, but Hoosier does in the A6.

And that is often what gives Hoosier the "edge" over the rest... They will make sizes that the bigger guys wont bother with.

[SilverBack]

Good posts. I decided that since I only run Auto-X once a month just for fun ATM, it looks like I can go for Hoosier without tearing a hole in the wallet. As for when the day comes when I finally run for points, the Kumho's will definitely be my first choice. And I guess the R1's will have to wait til I'm confident enough to move up to the track (fingers crossed for next year). Thanks for the info guys!

[kngrsll]

if you are only doing autox just for fun, why do you wanna step up to slicks? unless you are gunning for regional or local championships, i think slicks are kinda silly. thats ALOT of money for 10-20 mins of play time. what class are you running? I think the most logical class for the yaris is ST really. Then you can buy wheels and tires you and drive around on all the time.

[SilverBack]

I don't mind using slicks at first. It's gonna be the best deciding factor for me if I should run them just for fun or for points (trial-and-error test). Right now I'm in HS and later today I'll be doing research on the highest class I can move up to in my daily driver within my skin-tight budget. I'll keep ST in mind though as the next possibility, but some of us here have successfully ran in CST so that just might be the top for the Yaris. As for tires and wheels, I'll definitely be running my stock alloys and tires for daily use, and the comps will be mounted on the lightest rims I can find within budget, and those will hibernate in my garage (or other storage space if I have no other choice) between events.

[Loren]

Very important that you understand that the grippier a rubber compound is, the quicker it ages. You're fresh Hoosiers, even if you only autox infrequently and they have half tread left, will be nearly useless in a year. Unless you keep the tires bagged and stored in a cool dark place, they will harden to the point that they're no better than an all-season street tire.

For "casual" use, I'd recommend the R888. They won't have the Hoosier grip, but they'll last a lot longer and be more consistent for a longer period, even in the "occasional use" environment.

[kngrsll]

what exactly is your budget??

for ST competition- wheels, tires, shocks, springs, and a rear sway bar will be: $4-500 for 15x7's, 85x4 for street tires, 150 for a rear sway bar, 200 for springs, 350 for shocks and you can do fairly well in ST. thats under $1500.

for hoosiers and light weight wheels, you are looking at nearly the same! $500 for light cheap wheels and $800 for tires. for a little more, you can have the suspension mods and drive on your autox set up everyday (which is still more tame than alot of mid range sports cars)

im not trying to argue, just providing an alternative.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I don't mind using slicks at first. It's gonna be the best deciding factor for me if I should run them just for fun or for points (trial-and-error test). Right now I'm in HS and later today I'll be doing research on the highest class I can move up to in my daily driver within my skin-tight budget. I'll keep ST in mind though as the next possibility, but some of us here have successfully ran in CST so that just might be the top for the Yaris. As for tires and wheels, I'll definitely be running my stock alloys and tires for daily use, and the comps will be mounted on the lightest rims I can find within budget, and those will hibernate in my garage (or other storage space if I have no other choice) between events.

HS... Novice + no negative camber + FWD = fail with the Hoosier. They will not last the season, you will burn the outside edgo off of them in a matter of a few events.

Get the V710. It is more durable and cost less. Plus you can go right from the autox to the track with the V710 - we have them on the ITA Miata we built.

The tires we are using on Sunday to test the Yaris are a set of 205-50-15 V710s from that Miata. They have four road races on them - not track days with easy laps, full out 20 lap races - as well as a full season of autox.

[Jason@SportsCar]

For "casual" use, I'd recommend the R888. They won't have the Hoosier grip, but they'll last a lot longer and be more consistent for a longer period, even in the "occasional use" environment.

That tire is such a turd that both SCCA and NASA have gone back to the RA1 for the spec Toyo classes (Spec Miata etc) due to member input :thumbdown:

[LtNoogie]

Try the Kuhm Ectsa XS for one season. If you drive like me, you will need a couple of seasons more experience before you get the benefit of R comps. If you don't like them after a couple of sessions, I am sure there are YW members who will buy them off of you. I might need a replacement set by then.:smile:

[Loren]

That tire is such a turd that both SCCA and NASA have gone back to the RA1 for the spec Toyo classes (Spec Miata etc) due to member input :thumbdown:
I thought they phased out the RA1. Good tire. Great tire. If you can get RA1's... do.

[SilverBack]

Very important that you understand that the grippier a rubber compound is, the quicker it ages. You're fresh Hoosiers, even if you only autox infrequently and they have half tread left, will be nearly useless in a year. Unless you keep the tires bagged and stored in a cool dark place, they will harden to the point that they're no better than an all-season street tire.

For "casual" use, I'd recommend the R888. They won't have the Hoosier grip, but they'll last a lot longer and be more consistent for a longer period, even in the "occasional use" environment.

That's what I was gonna ask about next. Thanks for reminding about storage bags. I wasn't sure if they were necessary, or if Tire Rack was just looking to score an extra buck from customers.

I'll add the R888's and RA1's (if I can still find a set) to list of tires to research also. So far I'm liking the RA1 and V710 equally...

[justjesus]

Good input, gentlemen!
And good post, Silver. I was actually going to ask the same question, as I was considering the R1s (due to cost) over the A6, and V710s. But from what I researched, I was leaning toward the V710s. For us newbies, that's a better deal.
NOW, as for competing for points, especially in HS, we need to talk. I'm already moving into CST myself, for now, but MAY venture back into HS. We'll talk and I'll tell you why.

on a somewhat similar note, how are the Advan AD08s? There's a set for sale at 350$US.

[mojoyaris]

Too bad you guys can't run the tires that come from Japan (not Dot rated). There are some great compounds there that can be used (in Japan and Okinawa), but not in the US.
Toyo has a great set of R888's that are much stickier than the R888's or RA1's in the US.

I figure for the budget racer using a Yaris for auto X, You may not win against some of those faster cars out there. Not for FTD anyways. I would go with the V710 because of the cost factor and that they last longer. If however you want a longer lasting tire than that go with a 100 Treadwear rated tire like the R888's or a Nitto NT-01. They're affordable, last a long time and you can use them for both track and solo 1/2 events.

I don't know of many Yaris racers out there with a special tire expense account. Not unless you get sponsored by one of the manufactures.

[SilverBack]

Oh that's right I forgot about NT's. Geez too many tires too choose from already lol

Jesus. PM me. I'm in and out of the house today so I'll check when I can

[cali yaris]

Are Hefty bags good enough to store R comps in?

[SilverBack]

They might be good if you stuck the tires in the fridge. Take it from someone who used to hide in Hefty's as a kid while playing hide-n-seek with the cousin, there's no air-condition in there! LOL

[SilverBack]

what exactly is your budget??

for ST competition- wheels, tires, shocks, springs, and a rear sway bar will be: $4-500 for 15x7's, 85x4 for street tires, 150 for a rear sway bar, 200 for springs, 350 for shocks and you can do fairly well in ST. thats under $1500.

for hoosiers and light weight wheels, you are looking at nearly the same! $500 for light cheap wheels and $800 for tires. for a little more, you can have the suspension mods and drive on your autox set up everyday (which is still more tame than alot of mid range sports cars)

im not trying to argue, just providing an alternative.

Good call. Who's offering $85 each for R-comps BTW? And $500 for wheels? Just saying I could always use a better deal. And my springs are already installed with sway bar next.

So far I've got my heart set on the lightest rims I could find (MSRP about $800/set, but will keep looking for better price) + tire budget (limit $800/set). Total of $1600 sounds about right, though it could be much lower depending on chosen tires and certain retailers. My local tire guy always gives me a good deal so I'll see if he's got what I want first.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Good call. Who's offering $85 each for R-comps BTW? And $500 for wheels? Just saying I could always use a better deal. And my springs are already installed with sway bar next.So far I've got my heart set on the lightest rims I could find (MSRP about $800/set, but will keep looking for better price) + tire budget (limit $800/set). Total of $1600 sounds about right, though it could be much lower depending on chosen tires and certain retailers. My local tire guy always gives me a good deal so I'll see if he's got what I want first.

If you have changed your springs your car is not legal for HS. :iono: A rear bar is also not legal for stock class.

[kngrsll]

If you have changed your springs your car is not legal for HS. :iono: A rear bar is also not legal for stock class.

making ST even more appealing ;)

you could get these if you still want RA-1's: http://www.good-win-racing.com/Mazda-Performance-Part/21-0046.html

$900 for wheels, tires, mounted, and balanced? win

or put, street tires on them, use the rest of your budget at microimage on a rear sway bar and shocks and you are can run ST and do track days to your hearts content!

[SilverBack]

I'll check in with my shop tomorrow when they open first, but I'll bookmark that link for now. Thanks!

If you have changed your springs your car is not legal for HS. :iono: A rear bar is also not legal for stock class.

I see about the springs. I'm also running Falken ZE502's. Does this mean I can move up to ST? If not, then which class?

Man this is confusing...

[Jason@SportsCar]

I'll check in with my shop tomorrow when they open first, but I'll bookmark that link for now. Thanks!



I see about the springs. I'm also running Falken ZE502's. Does this mean I can move up to ST? If not, then which class?

Yes, you can run in ST.

[SilverBack]

Sweet! Thanks for your help Jason :thumbsup:

[Jason@SportsCar]

Sweet! Thanks for your help Jason :thumbsup:

Keep in mind none of the tires you were looking at are ST legal - must have a 140 or higher tread wear rating for ST.

[SilverBack]

I guess I'll just have to use the Falkens again for the next event and just grab a sway bar and CAI way before. I can still wait a minute to get rims and tires seeing as how I need to make enough storage space for them anyway. Can I still run the sway bar and CAI in ST? I'm looking at the class rules right now, but doesn't really say anything specific about engine and suspension parts til you get to SP.

http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/faq/auto.htm#114

I take it "common parts" also include CAI? Or is it limited to a filter-only upgrade? Is sway bar also considered common?

[cali yaris]

Some classes limit you to options that would come from the dealer. It's confusing to me that's for sure.

[Jason@SportsCar]

I guess I'll just have to use the Falkens again for the next event and just grab a sway bar and CAI way before. I can still wait a minute to get rims and tires seeing as how I need to make enough storage space for them anyway. Can I still run the sway bar and CAI in ST? I'm looking at the class rules right now, but doesn't really say anything specific about engine and suspension parts til you get to SP.

http://www.sfrscca.com/solo2/faq/auto.htm#114

I take it "common parts" also include CAI? Or is it limited to a filter-only upgrade? Is sway bar also considered common?

Those are not the rules: http://scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=61

You want to look at section 13-19, specifically for Street Touring.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Some classes limit you to options that would come from the dealer. It's confusing to me that's for sure.

Dealer installed options are not legal in stock class, only factory or port installed options.

Typically any class beyond stock you would use an aftermarket part that is better than the dealer install stuff, so it becomes a non issue.

[Loren]

Are Hefty bags good enough to store R comps in?
Yes, heavy-duty black trash bags are more than adequate for storing tires in.

The goal is to keep them isolated from ozone, sunlight, and temperature extremes.

[SilverBack]

Those are not the rules: http://scca.com/contentpage.aspx?content=61

You want to look at section 13-19, specifically for Street Touring.

Okay now it's making even more sense. Getting there slowly lol. I checked the SCCA page several times before that. Not sure why I couldn't find it...

[Jason@SportsCar]

Okay now it's making even more sense. Getting there slowly lol. I checked the SCCA page several times before that. Not sure why I couldn't find it...

The website is not super user friendly, and the rules can be even less so - particularly in the state they are in. Typically it is one link on the site for the whole book, and you even get a side menu to find the section you want, but at the point they put it online they were not 100% done.

ST will let you do a lot of things to make up for the lack of the stock classes sticky tires: CIA, header, cat-back, ECU, pulleys, shifter, suspension, race seats, wings.

Just for comparisons sake... We took our stock class RX-8, that had won four strait BS championships and converted it to STX in 2009. The difference in prep between stock and STX was about $10k, and the car was slower in STX trim - it is no longer in STX trim. :wink: I like race tires. :thumbsup:

imho it is hard to beat the transformation that occurs when you put race tires on an otherwise "stock" car. The comfortable daily driver feels like a racecar with just a simple tire change. While an ST car reminds you on a daily basis with its poor ride quality, noisy exhaust and limited ground clearance. And in almost every case a stock class car on race tires is quicker than a no expense spared ST car. Spend more money to go slower? No thanks. :drinking:

[kngrsll]

The website is not super user friendly, and the rules can be even less so - particularly in the state they are in. Typically it is one link on the site for the whole book, and you even get a side menu to find the section you want, but at the point they put it online they were not 100% done.

ST will let you do a lot of things to make up for the lack of the stock classes sticky tires: CIA, header, cat-back, ECU, pulleys, shifter, suspension, race seats, wings.

Just for comparisons sake... We took our stock class RX-8, that had won four strait BS championships and converted it to STX in 2009. The difference in prep between stock and STX was about $10k, and the car was slower in STX trim - it is no longer in STX trim. :wink: I like race tires. :thumbsup:

imho it is hard to beat the transformation that occurs when you put race tires on an otherwise "stock" car. The comfortable daily driver feels like a racecar with just a simple tire change. While an ST car reminds you on a daily basis with its poor ride quality, noisy exhaust and limited ground clearance. And in almost every case a stock class car on race tires is quicker than a no expense spared ST car. Spend more money to go slower? No thanks. :drinking:

well ST is very appealing to me in my current situation. I have the yaris with a few bolt ons. springs, shocks, rear sway bar, a header, and intake. Those are pretty cheap common mods around here. Now you have the option to compete in ST or FSP based on how much you want to spend on tires. I prefer to just run in ST and use my street tires. Will i compete on the national level? nope, will i be competitive at a regional level? highly doubt it. but is it a great class to arrive and drive when i get the chance? hell yeah! so ST works for alot of people, and i think thats really why they created the class.

now what i would REALLY like to do is run an S2k in stock class with R-comp's. THAT would be fuuuun!

[kngrsll]

Here is a chart someone else posted here for your help:

http://autocross.com/er/carmodandclassification.pdf

now that you have decided on a class, picking a tire will be easy. The fastest tire last season was the R1R, but they will not last long if you use them on the street. If you are only bolting them on to race with, they would probably be your best choice. The next best would probably be the Kumho XS or Direzza Star Spec. I love my star specs, i daily drive them, autox on them, and do track days on the same tires, they are amazing pieces of rubber! ST allows you to run up to a 225 tire on a 7" (or7.5"?) rim. you can still do alot of parts, springs, shocks, (or coilovers), rear sway bar, seat, header, intake, exhaust, and i am sure there are more.

Links:

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Dunlop&tireModel=Direzza+Sport+Z1+Star+Spec

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Kumho&tireModel=Ecsta+XS

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Yokohama&tireModel=ADVAN+Neova+AD08

http://www.performanceplustire.com/products/tires/searchType/searchByBrand/manufacturerID/27/productID_/5490#prodAnchor

[ozmdd]

Couple of things:

R-comps on a stock Yaris are going to get shredded on the outside edge, and are a real risk for rollovers, due to the high COG and extreme grip.

Kumho V710's and Hoosier A6 are top-notch autocross R-comp tires.

dunlop Star-Specs and Kumho XS are excellent, affordable and durable "Street" tires, very popular in ST-based classes. The Bridgestone RE11 is also getting a lot of love from people who ran at Nationals in Lincoln (concrete) last fall. All three are tires you could easily use as daily-drivers in most non-snowy parts of the country and get 10-15K miles, even with occasional autocross use, so you save $$ on new wheels.

As for the Rear sway bar, there has been some debate about it being legal for the Yaris in HS. Jason may have better info than I do based on his experience, but I did email the rules representative at the SCCA national office, and he interpreted the rules in favor of the TRD RSB, because it is officially listed as a port option for Toyota Yaris with a corresponding part number. FYI.

IMHO, your car is not going to be able to take advantage of the R-comps as it it currently prepared. Try something in a street tire and see how you do, then consider what prepartion you'd eventually like to do to your car.

One other thing- tirerack.com has a $50 rebate on Dunlop Star-spec's for the next month!!

[Jason@SportsCar]

As for the Rear sway bar, there has been some debate about it being legal for the Yaris in HS. Jason may have better info than I do based on his experience, but I did email the rules representative at the SCCA national office, and he interpreted the rules in favor of the TRD RSB, because it is officially listed as a port option for Toyota Yaris with a corresponding part number. FYI.




Yes, the port installed stuff is OK - SCCA considers the port to be an extension of the factory. Most of the time you can spot the dealer VS port installed options by reading the fine print. If it says installation charges apply and vary by dealer, it is typically dealer installed and not legal.

Just for fun I went on and "built" a 2010 with a bunch of TRD parts.

Sport Muffler and rear swaybar come up as installed by the manufacturer - should be legal.
Clutch, CAI, springs, rad cap and shift knob are listed as installation not included, see your local dealer - would not be legal.

Keep in mind the TRD rear bar under the Port installed allowance does not mean you had to order it with your car or have the port install it, you can do it yourself after the fact. But this allowance does not allow the use of an aftermarket rear bar, even if it appears "identical". You must use the TRD part to be legal.

[cali yaris]

how about OEM TRD bushings/motor mounts/trans mount/etc that are Toyota parts from Japan, like the ones I sell?

How do those fit into SCCA's classing scheme?

[Jason@SportsCar]

how about OEM TRD bushings/motor mounts/trans mount/etc that are Toyota parts from Japan, like the ones I sell?

How do those fit into SCCA's classing scheme?

For stock class those parts are not legal regardless of who makes them, there is no allowance for replacing them.

I am not familiar with your JDM parts, but ST and up allow for replacement bushings, motor and trans mounts. However, they must attach to the OE locations, and can not have more metal content than the OE part. So harder rubber, poly and delrin are ok, also long as the metal content (sleeve/tube) is not great than stock. If you have more metal content, or use bearings, you would be in Prep or Mod.

[cali yaris]

ok cool - the TRD mounts and bushings use harder rubber.

Here is the TRD trans mount:

http://shop.microimageonline.com/images/TRD-rollstopper.jpg