Is highway wander caused by caster?

[Snubba]

Hi folks, long time member, long time lurker, newbie poster.
At highway speeds my 5 door liftback needs constant attention to drive in a straight line down the road. I think I found out why. I came across a forum discussing the new Toyota Corolla's similar complaint with the steering. A coincidence is that the Corolla has electric steering assist too. Check out posts #94 and then #98.
http://townhall.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1d0fdf/90
Post 94 is an account of a guy that had his caster adjusted and said his steering improved (less wander). Then in post 98 this other guy replies that he always thought the reason Toyota gave it less caster is that it makes steering easier. Easy steering would require a less powerful and smaller electric motor, smaller wires, smaller alternator, battery, etc. He thinks their motive is to save money on the smaller parts and I agree.

In the forum I linked to, it seems a lot of people don't understand what the complainers are talking about. They reply saying the electric assist is great. Which it is. I love mine in parking lots. And I love its simplicity because there is no hydraulic pump sapping power and potentially getting leaks in the future (however I'd rather have no power steering altogether because I don't think it is needed on such a small car). Back to the topic, the the issue is the wandering, so naturally the complainers blame the electric assist because it is the new technology associated with the steering. The theory is that it is not the electric assist that is the direct problem, but the caster setting. If this theory is true, the electric assist is the reason for the problem, but indirectly, because Toyota set the caster to make steering effort easy on their new electric assist steering technology and this setting makes a the car wander. If a car has electric or hydraulic power steering, it shouldn't wander down the road as it goes in a straight line. I've driven 8 cars may miles in my life ranging from an '84 Corolla to a '64 Dodge Dart to a '90 CRX to a '95 BMW 525i. They ranged from light weight and no power steering to moderate size and advanced power steering. They all did not wander as bad as my Yar-Yar.

It appears many Carolla owners are speaking up about the issue. Check out post 101. It has this link to an article where the NHTSA is studying the Corolla problem.
http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2010/02/toyota-corolla-to-be-probed-for-steering-problems/1
Why is the same action not taken with the Yaris? Until now, I attributed the wander to the small size, light weight, and tall height making it easily affected by the wind so I didn't complain to anybody but myself. I think other people haven't complained because they attributed it to the same characteristics as I just stated.

FYI: Here's a link to the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) where complaints can be made.
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm
I hate to put extra stress on the beloved mother of my Yar in this time of other recalls, but what the hell Toyota?! I expect a straight tracking car! If anything, make a car with no power steering. There are other Americans like me that don't require unnecessary fluff (power steering on a small car) to powder my butt with.

I am a tweaker (with mechanics, not meth :smoking:), and now I want to have my caster measured and depending on its angle, have it set to the more extreme angle while still being within spec. In order do this it looks like my option is to cut out the cone shaped protrusion from the strut tower that the top of the shock fits into and then adapt some other vehicle's camber/caster kit to the strut tower and shock. Is anybody out there that has changed the caster? Any recommendations on a good shop that knows what they're doing in So. CA? Are there any camber / caster kits for the Yaris in this country or others?

[Loren]

Without reading a bunch of stuff you've linked, or most of your post...

The Yaris has no caster adjustment. I'm betting the Corolla doesn't, either.

You can make the car track straighter with a little bit of toe-in. If you want to tinker, try adding a rear swaybar. Proper toe-in (a tenth of a degree or so... 1/16-1/8" total toe in) and a rear swaybar should give you a wander-free Yaris.

[Snubba]

Thanks, I'll try that. Its much easier than caster and hopefully does the trick. I do have a rear sway bar installed from TRD and it gave me much more stability (and a great handling beast of a car) but I'm still not satisfied with the tracking.

[chew246214]

OK not that I want to jump onboard, but same issue here... ordered a swaybar to help I hope it does... if not springs... It is affected by the wind a lot, but still at higher speeds 80 or so I need to slow down to keep her straight..... it's constant attention has caused my wife to blacklist the car and she won't drive it or allow my son in it...... my own issues in life with only 2600 miles on the car....

[YarisSedan]

Thanks, I'll try that. Its much easier than caster and hopefully does the trick. I do have a rear sway bar installed from TRD and it gave me much more stability (and a great handling beast of a car) but I'm still not satisfied with the tracking.

+1 for what loren said. After lowering my car it gave me a bit of toe in. My car tracked strait as a arrow. After having an alignment done my car tends to wander just a tad on freeways. Have to pay attention more when im driving. But the tradeoff is it handles so much better on the corners now its worth it.

So take your case just have it aligned to have a bit of toe in and it will correct your issues. If not atleast make it substantially better. Our cars do get tend to be knocked around a bit with high winds at freeway speeds since they are so small and lightweight with a short wheel base.

[Ranger SVO]

Caster is what leans a tire into a turn. It does not cause a car to wander, pull probably, but not wander. An improper toe setting will cause wander. Not sure what the Yaris specs are (have not done alignments since 1992), but have the toe setting checked and adjusted as necessary.

[Yawesh]

nothing much to do, our yaris were not designed for highway driving, more of a city driver, i know how u feel - my car loves wandering, especially on wide open highways

[PaddyMac]

Or just loosen your grip on the wheel :)

[ozmdd]

You need a slight toe-in to avoid wander. I have mine set to zero toe-in and don't have any real wander issues, but there is a noticeable difference in self-centering.

Regarding the idea that the Yaris wasn't made for highway driving, I think that's silly. I can cruise for hours at 80 mph and the car is a champ. I think its as much a highway car as any other compact.

[Snubba]

Chew,
thats a serious bummer with the wife's blacklisting! The swaybar is a must just because it makes it handle the corners so much better and its pretty cheap and easy. You can tell your wife it makes it much more stable at high speed turns like slight bends in the highway. But if you went so far as lowering springs, she might not like the ride quality as in bumps. I go by the motto in my sig if you know what I mean.

Ranger SVO,
on what you said about caster not causing a car to wander, I disagree. I like thinking of the forks on a bicycle. If a bicycle didn't have any caster, it wouldn't tend to go straight. Think of a scenario where the neck is directly above the wheel axle and there would be no inherent forces keeping the wheel straight besides your arms. With caster, its like the weight of your body and the bike keeps the wheel straight. Does this make sense?

PaddyMac,
believe me, I've changed my driving habits with this car. Right now I use a loose grip, but with more attention.

ozmdd,
I agree, I think any car can do well on straight highways at 65mph. For example my 4 door '86 Corolla with power steering did fine. My Yar does get knocked by the wind but on a calm day I still get unacceptable wander. I like the concept you mentioned of self centering, I think when I let the steering wheel go it doesn't go to center as easily as my other cars. And I think this is the caster.

[Altitude]

The day I drove it home from the lot I noticed a little wander, but nothing I would call terrifying. Added larger/wider wheels and tires and that seemed to improve it a bit. Then I added a rear sway bar and the wander is pretty much non-existent. Drove it from Colorado to Maryland and back last summer and had zero issues with wandering.

[why?]

I've never really noticed any wandering issues. Oh wait, yes I have. I am wicked paranoid though, and I chalk it up to that usually. Speaking of paranoia, I have to go find my wheel locks. Now that is scary, not something you want to lose...

[kimona]

Initially had quite a bit of wander. Now, with wider wheels and tyres and 34,000 miles, have no wander to speak of.

[Snubba]

kimona,
I have about 16K miles logged so far. I have wider rims and tires and a rear sway bar and both of these helped to reduce the wander. Its not that bad, I could handle an all day drive but it would fatigue me more than if I used another car. I don't drive over 70mph often due to the heavy presence of revenue hungry CHP officers in my area. Its just not as good as I want it to be. I think I have high standards for this car since its my first that I bought new.
I wonder if your suspension settled and broke in? Maybe some bushings got a little worn but in a good way? Maybe they engineered this into the car?

[yaris2010RS]

funny.... i drive highway all the time with no hands on the steering (busy eating, texting, coffee, playing, adjusting....u get the point) and my only complaints are coming out of a turn or sometihng of the sort finding center is a bit of a job (steering does have a little bit of play or dead zone) but once the wheels are happy and true they stay like that....

quick thought (please dont let this offend anyone) check ure tire pressure.... u will be surprised how much 3psi difference will make. make sure all tires are the same, not jsut in range....

[RedRide]

Without reading a bunch of stuff you've linked, or most of your post...

The Yaris has no caster adjustment. I'm betting the Corolla doesn't, either.

You can make the car track straighter with a little bit of toe-in. If you want to tinker, try adding a rear swaybar. Proper toe-in (a tenth of a degree or so... 1/16-1/8" total toe in) and a rear swaybar should give you a wander-free Yaris.

My HB tended to wader a bit on the highway but, a rear sway bar cured it.

BTW, the fist time I drove my Yaris in high croos winds, I was pleasently surprised about how stable it was considereing its configuration. :smile:

[yaris2010RS]

please tell me you're joking....
Yes I am, dnw, always have one hand on the wheel, but very lightly at times. But really for a car top of the line costs around 22000 I'm very happy

[chew246214]

OK as far as driving goes, I am more then able to do that... I am not a freaky tight fisted driver... trained in CEVO I and II, pursuit driving, advanced defensive driving, .. My backround is in EMS and law enforcement with a hobby of auto racing.... car isn't the worst it could be, just more then my wife will deal with especially since we live on the coast and there is wind all the time.... As far as tires, I am anal retentive about them... especially since I have michelin x ices on for the winter..... but it was still the same with the stock integritys (which I hate)....

[Loren]

Swaybar will fix you up, Chew.

[chew246214]

thats what I'm hoping for just have to get off my backside and order it......

[Goose]

I have also been experiencing this exact problem for some time. My '09 Yaris' highway behavior is unacceptable.

I want people to know that if your Yaris tramlines or needs "more attention than it should" to keep going straight on the highway -- you're not alone. My Yaris will be going in for its third alignment to try to correct highway wandering.

I'm going to look over the tech's shoulder and have the car toe'd-in to the maximum within the factory spec range. They didn't do this the last time, even though I requested it. It sucks that caster can't be adjusted, since I also think this is the culprit. Before anyone suggests it, I'm not going to add a rear sway bar, since I think such a mod should not be needed to achieve decent highway behavior.

This is my third Yaris liftback. The others didn't have this problem. I haven't hit any potholes/etc to throw off the car's alignment. Tires are inflated to spec and I've ensured that the lugnuts are tightened to spec as well.

I'll let you know if more toe-in solves the problem (or a least makes this situation tolerable). Does anybody know if something changed with the liftback's suspension/steering between '08 and '09?

[Loren]

I haven't heard of any US spec Yaris suspension changes from 2007 on.

A little toe-in could help. I've definitely found the car to feel "twitchy" with toe out or even neutral toe.

[yaris2010RS]

wow, i am so glad this thread got bumped. when i posted my first comment my car was still very very new.

funny.... i drive highway all the time with no hands on the steering (busy eating, texting, coffee, playing, adjusting....u get the point) and my only complaints are coming out of a turn or sometihng of the sort finding center is a bit of a job (steering does have a little bit of play or dead zone) but once the wheels are happy and true they stay like that....

quick thought (please dont let this offend anyone) check ure tire pressure.... u will be surprised how much 3psi difference will make. make sure all tires are the same, not jsut in range....

now that it has been more broken in, it truly is a pain in the ass on the highway. i do plan some time eventually to lower it a bit and put a sway bar kit on it so the wind wont push me accross 2 lanes anymore.

i jsut wanted to post and say i find it weird that my car didn't do this before but its progressing now.

[Goose]

Okay - after some negotiation I had my dealer set the fronts to 1/16" (or 0.15 degrees) IN. The service advisor told me that, if anything, I should set the toe OUT! I didn't try to educate the guy, but insisted that we set up the toe IN per my request. I'm taking a five-hour highway trip tomorrow, so I'll be sure to report back with my experience.

How much does rear wheel alignment influence how the car steers/tracks? I ask this question based on the following information:

The alignment was a four-wheel job, and the passenger-side rear is relatively messed up -- and it was not corrected. Both camber and toe are (relatively speaking) much greater than the other three; toe-in is .2 degrees in (double the others). Camber in the rear is interesting also; -0.2 degrees on the left, while it's -1.1 degrees on the right. Again, the relative difference appears pretty large; 1.1 is over five times as much, right?

Considering how the car is behaving, this is getting a bit old for me. I'm just sharing my (anal retentive) experience for your information.

Those that are knowledgeable about suspension setup/alignment are encouraged to share their thoughts. :smile:

EDIT: After reviewing the factory specs, I guess I'm just being too tightly wound. The specs are so relaxed that even these seemingly wide variances are within factory tolerance. It still looks pretty sloppy to me, though - why have specs out to two decimals if they're not really important?

Sorry... just being an engineer.

[Goose]

I'm still sorting things out, but I wanted to bump this thread in case anyone was curious...

Setting the toe slightly IN 1/16" has indeed helped the straight-line tracking on my Yaris. Thanks to those that have provided feedback with their experiences.

If you take your car in for alignment, don't let the shop get away with a sloppy job - the specs are there for a reason.

I still agree with the OP that caster is a big factor here. Although my car tracks better, the steering response still has room for improvement. My hope is that there's a little play in the top shock mounting point; if the top of the shock can be tweaked slightly rearward, steering feel should be more acceptable.

Although I posted this question elsewhere, has anyone noticed any "adjustability" at the top mounting point when re-installing the front shocks?

[Snubba]

Goose, I'm going to try the toe in. For a while I was focusing on the top shock mount and how to move it back. Maybe someday somebody will make an adjustable plate.

Somebody at an autocross said you could also move the lower control arm forward. I assume you could press the LCA's 2 bushings toward the back of the car, then the LCA would sit more forward. But there's not much room for that. I don't know how much movement it would take to get a good caster. And I don't know how much clearance you need when steering while going over bumps. But that looked promising. But before I go that far, I'll try the toe in. Too many projects at home that are more important though...


PS. The rear sway bar really makes the thing handle like a sports car! I recommend getting it even if it doesn't help the wander that much. On the highway going 70 around a slight corner, the car is much flatter and feels much safer. Around tight corners, it is another animal and sticks to the ground. Around town its more pleasant to zip around. It changes the character of the car for the better. If you enjoy a car's character, you would like this improvement. I went to an auto cross that a Corvette club was hosting and I did pretty well with my stock wheels and the TRD sway bar. At the lunch break I heard one Corvette guy say, "Lets eat some Yaris!" They were so surprised my 1.5L, 4 door, 36mpg, automatic, hatchback was getting good times. It was fun.

[Goose]

I installed a different set of tires today (195/60R15 Bridgestone HP550's) to see if this would help the wandering situation.

Based on the first few miles with the new tires, I'd say the change sucks. Tracking may have improved very slightly, but other aspects of the car's handling simply suck.

Things may improve as the new tires break-in, but I'm not optimistic.

[127.0.0.1]

I installed a different set of tires today (195/60R15 Bridgestone HP550's) to see if this would help the wandering situation.

Based on the first few miles with the new tires, I'd say the change sucks. Tracking may have improved very slightly, but other aspects of the car's handling simply suck.

Things may improve as the new tires break-in, but I'm not optimistic.

do you have a rear swaybar installed yet ?

if not, get one.

[ddongbap]

Add 3 fat chicks. Wander gone.

[Goose]

Even if they're fat, my wife wouldn't want me hauling around three chicks all the time. :smile:

No swaybar for me. I'm going to try these Bridgestones for a but longer; if they don't improve, I'll exchange 'em for something else (30 day trial period).

[127.0.0.1]

sway bar will make far more difference than a tire ever will, and is cheap as 1 good tire

[yaris2010RS]

Add 3 fat chicks. Wander gone.

fixes the height issue too

[cali yaris]

Add 3 fat chicks. Wander gone.

I'm not going to ask why he knows that.

but yeah.. SWAY BAR

[MUSKOKA800]

Goose asked;
"Although I posted this question elsewhere, has anyone noticed any "adjustability" at the top mounting point when re-installing the front shocks?"

My sedan has zero available adjustment where the upper strut mounts to the inner fender/firewall.
A second inspection would be helpful to confirm but perhaps a daring/desperate soul could hog out the mounting hole and then install a spacer/shim to keep the strut shafts top mounting point fixed rearward thus changing camber. Better yet, engineer a kit and sell it to the rest of us.

[Goose]

Well said, Muskoka. Since I enjoy gathering opinions, I stopped into my local dealer with this very idea some time ago.

The result of my discussion with a senior tech was that hogging out the mount would be the way to go (as you have correctly suggested). There was some head-scratching about the best way to secure the new mounting point to prevent misalignment - unfortunately, the upper strut mount isn't very robust.

I may go this route, although I'm still deciding if want start tearing into my car's unibody.

[turbomatic]

Would having heavier wider rims and tires help with the wondering?

[127.0.0.1]

SWAY BAR


dammit people. you just do not comprehend, do you ?

it is CHEAP and it will WORK for 80% of the skittishness.


only then, if you do not like the results, (and you will), try to tweak other stuff.

[toy_toronto]

I vote sway bar too, but second only to 3 fat chicks.


.

[ddongbap]

Maybe thats why they call em, SWAY BARS. *RIM SHOT* Thank you folks, I'll be here tonight.

[frog13]

Smaller tires-less wide tires whatever you want to call them can wander more frequently due to the type of road surface---it happens with motorcycles alot.Also, the speed your traveling makes a difference/contact patch.In SW Ohio a couple of years back,the office jockeys upstate decided to use a different material/paving method...OMG,what a disaster.This "method"---thats all I know to refer to it as---seems to have tiny grooves(micro) incorporated in it----talk about sway or wander.On four wheels it's bad enough,but, on two wheels it's :evil:!!!!!!.

[Stove]

I constantly change lanes so wander isn't a problem :biggrin:

Seriously though, maybe my car is unusual but I don't seem to have any issues with wander unless the road has noticeable ruts.

[Snubba]

Its time to rise this thread from death. "Old thread, heed me, ARISE!"

OK, I just got my car aligned. The rear was a tad out of spec. The shop did all 4 wheels. They used EZ-Shims in the back. So before, I had a rear thrust angle of 0.24, now its 0.08. They gave me 0.28deg toe-in rear and 0.14deg toe-in front which is pretty close to factory specs. They have a nice alignment system. I haven't noticed any difference except maybe its more twitchy above 70mph and that could be due to the increased toe-in the front (changed from 0.07 to 0.14deg). I took out the EPS fuse and steering still feels disconnected at 55mph. Its no fun for cruising.

So I delved into the problem and found that EPS uses a torsion bar in the steering column to sense steering effort. So basically, Yarii are driving down the road with a torsion spring between your wheel and the road!

I made a whole post about it found here:
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

[g.q.vios]

Its time to rise this thread from death. "Old thread, heed me, ARISE!"

OK, I just got my car aligned. The rear was a tad out of spec. The shop did all 4 wheels. They used EZ-Shims in the back. So before, I had a rear thrust angle of 0.24, now its 0.08. They gave me 0.28deg toe-in rear and 0.14deg toe-in front which is pretty close to factory specs. They have a nice alignment system. I haven't noticed any difference except maybe its more twitchy above 70mph and that could be due to the increased toe-in the front (changed from 0.07 to 0.14deg). I took out the EPS fuse and steering still feels disconnected at 55mph. Its no fun for cruising.

So I delved into the problem and found that EPS uses a torsion bar in the steering column to sense steering effort. So basically, Yarii are driving down the road with a torsion spring between your wheel and the road!

I made a whole post about it found here:
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39719

i lowered my ride and im going to add sway bar the lowering helped on in rims wheels....sedan 10 :evil:

[RikBakke]

TRD rear sway bar, baby. First part I ordered after I got delivery on the 2010 hatch. The sway bar makes a world of difference on the highway wandering. The red is a sorta close match to the Yaris Absolutely Red, too.

[Snubba]

I have a TRD sway bar too. It made the car more stable in corners and is great for the handling. I like how its red and can be seen from behind and even through the spaces between my rim spokes. Its even easy to install and not very expensive for how much it improves the handling.


I think my wandering problem is confused with another kind of wander when there are grooves in the road and the tires follow them. The wandering I'm talking about is when you are cruising along a straight, flat, highway. When you make fine corrections, very minute ones, to keep the car straight, its difficult because at that sensitivity, the twisting springyness of the steering shaft muddles the corrections I'm trying to make. I'm pretty sure if I move the wheel a little (a tiny bit) it will twist the spring and if I wait a while without moving the steering wheel it will correct itself as the spring slowly untwists.

This is due to lack of steering feedback and a springy steering shaft. If I do the same steering corrections on my Crown Vic it is easy and immediate.

I don't know what to call the wander because I am WANDERing down the road. Maybe I should refer to it as "minute steering correction induced wander." ? Or just lack of feedback. Numb road feel. Disconnected.

[why?]

how about electro car symptons? when your controls are connected to electrons and not machines.

[Snubba]

Electro cars are the precursor to cyborg cars.