Installed My Tweeters Today

[Ranger SVO]

I started on the sound system in my Yaris.

I have found that the crossover is the weak link in all tweeters from all manufacurers. So I learn to design and build my own. This way I can optimize the tweeter for the car.

I had a choice between an 18dB Per Octave with response shaping and a 24dB per octave filter. Both crossover points were set to 5200Hz. The manufacturer crossover was a 12dB per octave at 6000HZ

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/crossover3.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/CrossOver3-1.jpg

After listening to all three crossovers, the 18dB per Octave won. And the differance was huge. The absolute worst was the 12dB, the 24dB was second best, but it would draw you attension right to the tweeter. The slope was just to steep.

The 18dB worked.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/Crossover4-1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/Tweeter1.jpg
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/Tweeter2.jpg

By the way, I got the idea for the tweeter placement here on Yaris world
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=9976&highlight=tweeters+installed

The noise he was talking about (my opinion because I didnt hear it for myself), is typical of a metal dome tweeter with cheap (chinese) electolytic caps.

[sqcomp]

...why on the door handle?

...or at least closer to the dash at the top of the handle assembly?

The closer you have it to the dash, the more forward you stage will be. This is a good thing.

[Ranger SVO]

I was hoping you would respond.

The sound improved alot. Imaging has improved. In fact most of the sound appears to be coming from in front of me. The sound stage is still too wide and moving the tweeters futher forward might have helped.

This spot was chosen for Convenience. Also the odd order filter is always out of phase (either 90-degrees or 270-degrees depending on how its hooked up) so its less directional than an even order filter. Tweeter Position (still important) is not as critical with an odd order filter.

I liked your idea about the importance of the midrange speaker and tweeter crossover points. Something I will Definitely look into. Interesting idea and it makes sense.

I have not replaced the door speakers yet. Thats coming up.

Any opinions or ideas you have are welcome.

By the way, this is my truck
http://www.caraudiotalk.com/audio-forum/showthread.php?t=3254

I've just started with the Yaris

[talnlnky]

i wish I knew more about crossover design, I know of a program that could help with crossover design, but i've only once needed to make a crossover when I didn't have access to friends with experience.

on my planned install i'll be doing a hybrid passive/active crossover, the passive will be a very simple one... a 2nd order, maybe 3rd order highpass for a tweeter, and I really doubt my 4" will have a low pass on it... maybe a 1st or 2nd order.

[sqcomp]

"The sound stage is still too wide and moving the tweeters futher forward might have helped."

My good sir...a soundstage is never too wide. :P

Interesting. I just cringe at the thought of a tweeter that close to me.

PLD's and all. It started for me when I had to install a system in a 97 Viper. The tweeters were in the door panels next to the handle. I still cringe.

[Ranger SVO]

"The sound stage is still too wide and moving the tweeters futher forward might have helped."

My good sir...a soundstage is never too wide. :P

Interesting. I just cringe at the thought of a tweeter that close to me.

PLD's and all. It started for me when I had to install a system in a 97 Viper. The tweeters were in the door panels next to the handle. I still cringe.

I'm assuming you used the crossover that came with the speakers. Always Bad, especially with a high end system.

One of the advantages to building your own crossover, you can shape the way it sounds. I could have put these tweeters much closer to me with only a minor change in the crossover. (a little futher up would have been better)

I believe that a sound stage can be too wide. Imagine standing in front of a band, within a foot of the lead singer (hopefully he is in the center), then imagine stepping back 10 feet, then stepping back another 10-feet. Notice that the sound stage narrows as we step back.

What I'm saying is that if the sound seems to be coming from the far left or far right, its too wide. This is a problem with any car with speakers in the doors. I corrected this problem in my truck with a centerchannel speaker. It worked (a total of 24 throphies in SQ competitions).

I have a few plans for the Yaris, because there is room for improvement. Door speakers will be next.


on my planned install i'll be doing a hybrid passive/active crossover, the passive will be a very simple one... a 2nd order, maybe 3rd order highpass for a tweeter, and I really doubt my 4" will have a low pass on it... maybe a 1st or 2nd order.

I have had the most luck with odd order filters with tweeters.

[sqcomp]

:D

If I can step back 10 feet...then I'm not in a vehicle. There's going to be a limit on how wide the stage is anyway. It'll depend on the placement and aiming of the speakers. Oh, and that funny thing, the recording itself. A slight bit outside the A-pillars, right on top of the dash, with the center image being where the hood and the glass meet...I'm thinking that is just about right.

Not only am I thinking about the staging of the speakers but also the PLD's, the depth of the image and the response of the speakers' axis. The farther away from my ears, the better. The more flexibility I have to move the stage around. If the speakers are too close to my ears, I get put in a box relative to the depth and the width of the placement. There's only so much Time Alignment can do for me if I place my speakers too close to one ear versus the other.

SQ trophies huh? Cool! So how was SBN this year? Did you notice two things from Hybrid Audio? Scott's "new" car and the start of a dynasty? Team Hybrids Baby! Every one of our cars at Spring Break Nats placed either 1st or 2nd in their class including two Best Of Show awards.

http://caraudiomag.com/sites/default/files/images/00000/80/08/d1aa98669bd01311694835ddde664b30.jpg

http://caraudiomag.com/sites/default/files/images/00000/86/07/0ce90e33346e4409b7ae2d004639d571.jpg

I'm going to try to get pics of the inside posted.

[Ranger SVO]

I was a professional installer for almost 15 years. I started competing in 1996. I quit competing in 2004. A couple of years ago I decided to put my degree in mathematics to use. I now teach High School Math. I'm on spring break right now so I have time to work on the car. Got the remote start and alarm in today.

I think the key to Alarm/Remote Start is a little research. Relays are prewired, wires are grouped together according to where they are going. All this was done the day before the install.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/YarisRemoteStartII.jpg

As far as your center image description, your right. And its not there in the Yaris yet, its too wide. Its close but it still needs a little help. I have no intention of building another competition vehicle. But it needs to sound better than it does now.

Door speakers are next.

[talnlnky]

it's always a pleasure to have another enthusiast... especially one that seems to have a good amount of experience and knowledge.

[sqcomp]

You know...once you go floor, you'll never do a door...

:)

Hmm. We've already got a MODEX winning 3 door Yaris in Team Hybrids. I think I'm the only sedan. We'll have to see where the image is in a month. I think you're going to like it.

[Ranger SVO]

Just a very tiny sample of my work

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/wrf01a/JustStuff.jpg

There are only 22 trophies on my shelves, I'm missing two. Gotta find them

[DFA]

Well, I'll just hijack this thread, if you two excuse me. There seem to be plenty of tweeter threads already, and I don't want to add up to that.
Here's the thing:

I'm trying to install components atm (pretty much my first adventure into the world of car audio installs), I already have the crossover and woofers mounted, no problems there. However, I'm planning on installing them like this:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1103/rjenkie/2d13ff43.jpg

and I'm just worried about the surface of that panel not being flat, therefore the tweeter not sitting flush onto the surface of the panel.
Should I be worried about this? I've never heard of anyone having a problem with this, so there's either a really simple solution for it, or it's not a problem at all. I just don't want to chop up my door panels, and then realize I can't mount my tweeters right.

I'm using these tweeters (Pioneer DS-759A)
http://www.maventech.com/ebay/ps2130_001.jpg

[sqcomp]

Unless there are any objections to searching around for other tweeter mounting locations, that is my vote.

"if the sound seems to be coming from the far left or far right, its too wide. This is a problem with any car with speakers in the doors. I corrected this problem in my truck with a centerchannel speaker. It worked (a total of 24 throphies in SQ competitions)."

This is what Ranger is saying will happen with the tweeters in the doors. He fixed it with a center channel. Personally, if I can't manage to have a good stereo image in a Yaris without a center channel...I've got something wrong with me. There is NO reason to be force to add to the speaker count, unless one refuses to look for other locations. I refer back to my original statement of finding alternate locations.

The PLD being so short with the tweeters so damned close to you is going to be noticeable. Run a stage test track, you'll see what I'm saying. let's say you're closest to the left tweeter which is obnoxiously close, in the left door handle area. What you're going to hear is the stage being pulled quickly left as the drums (lets say) move from right to left. When they go back right the sound of the drum hits on the left will stay there and pull only slightly right as you get back to center. There's other phenomena happening here that affect the sound as well. Shadowing and transfer function come into play.

Lopsided stage! Why? Because your tweeter is too close to your ear. Time alignment will only help so much if your source even has it. The further your speakers are from your ear the better. We shouldn't at this point even talk about on or off axis response, that plays into it as well. There is also something to add about the aiming of the tweeters in the picture above. *sigh* There is also another consideration to think about when placing your tweeters. Your crossover points. Since your are fixed for the most part (you're working passively as I understand), the stage and imaging won't be able to be effected with different points and slopes. You just don't have that avenue.

I submit that before you drill baby drill, you should place the tweeters and put them to power and see where it sounds the best for you. If it is indeed in the door handle...well, so be it.

Soon after the 15th I'll post up how I staged my three way and why I did what I did. Through my experience, puting tweeters in the door handle area like that is soundstage suicide (with or without a center channel). Give me a kickpanel, a-pillar, or dash inegration anyday of the week...

[DFA]

Well, mounting them in that location was a decision made following the KISS principle... it was the mounting place with the best SQ/looks/easiness of install ratio that I could conceive: requires no additional wiring, it's close to the crossover, and worst comes to happen, I can just get that extra panel, instead of trying to source a whole pillar or black door panel if I chose another location.

I am by no means an audiophile, OR a car audio install professional (this is my first incursion ever into this world, beyond taking the faceplate on my HU off and then back on.) but I do believe in getting the most for my money: if I already blew cash on speakers, why not install them in the best way possible?

I haven't cut up anything yet, and school will have me tied down at least until wednesday, so I'll prolly just drive around with the tweets just hanging out of my door until then. I'll take you up on your suggestion, try to use this to my advantage and try out the best place to mount them in.

Yes, I'm working passively. I aced my analog filter design class last semester, so I guess sometime down the line I'm going to go ahead and kill two birds in one shot and actually put what I'm learning to use, and getting rid of that crap crossover that came with my speakers (I'm getting a permanent, low-volume static noise coming out of my tweets when I tested them.)

What I honestly think I will be doing, is installing them as they are in the picture I posted, but in the top section of the panel, so as to move the soundstage just a tad closer to the front. That couple of inches, together with the fact that the top section of the panel is less angled towards the driver than the bottom section, should help out a bit.

sqcomp, could you upload or point me in the direction where I could find one of those stage test tracks? I tried a quick google search but came out empty-handed.

[sqcomp]

Let me qualify the aiming/placement issue...

If your tweeters sound the best to YOU in the doors, do it. Also, since you're not doing a down and dirty SQ system, I don't see anything wrong with downloading an iTunes track for staging.

Take a look at "front end alignment" from Bass Mekanik. What this track gives you is a left to right sweep of your soundstage using various percussion pieces. It should take you all over the frequency spectrum. Not only will it be good for your tweeters, it will involve the rest of your speakers as well.

Now a CD you might look at on iTunes (or whatever music server you use) is the Sheffield/A2TB Test Disc "My Disc". There are LOTS of tracks that IASCA continues to use for technical and critical listening. Specifically for our soundstage issue get "3 people describing position on sounstage in stereo". There is one that follows that where all three people are talking at the same time. That will be able to show you where the sounstage is left, right, and center. I would down load those first three I mentioned simply for working the speakers aiming. There are PLENTY more tracks I have in mind, but those should suffice.

Also look at Stereophile's offerings for test discs. Another interesting track to work the soundstage is "Ascent" by Don Dorsey.

...I need to stop...

There's SO much information to throw at you regarding this subject. I'd like to hear what you think about the different placements for your speakers.

...If I was instructed to put tweeters in the handle like you're leaning toward, I'd move them as far forward as possible to attampt to make the PLD between the two speakers more even.

[DFA]

Well, I tested it out today, and I have to say I'm very pleased with the soundstage the tweeters on the door create. The only position I found that was less 'biased' was inside the cupholders, which I don't think I'm going with :P. Then again, I tested it just using my everyday music.

I just finished running wire through my dash for the rear speakers, and got a couple of the tracks you suggested to test the system, so I'm going outside to try them out now.

By the way, will I face any problems while flush-mounting my tweeter to the non-flat door panel? This is my top concern at the moment.

[talnlnky]

Let me qualify the aiming/placement issue...

If your tweeters sound the best to YOU in the doors, do it. Also, since you're not doing a down and dirty SQ system, I don't see anything wrong with downloading an iTunes track for staging.

Take a look at "front end alignment" from Bass Mekanik. What this track gives you is a left to right sweep of your soundstage using various percussion pieces. It should take you all over the frequency spectrum. Not only will it be good for your tweeters, it will involve the rest of your speakers as well.

Now a CD you might look at on iTunes (or whatever music server you use) is the Sheffield/A2TB Test Disc "My Disc". There are LOTS of tracks that IASCA continues to use for technical and critical listening. Specifically for our soundstage issue get "3 people describing position on sounstage in stereo". There is one that follows that where all three people are talking at the same time. That will be able to show you where the sounstage is left, right, and center. I would down load those first three I mentioned simply for working the speakers aiming. There are PLENTY more tracks I have in mind, but those should suffice.

Also look at Stereophile's offerings for test discs. Another interesting track to work the soundstage is "Ascent" by Don Dorsey.

...I need to stop...

There's SO much information to throw at you regarding this subject. I'd like to hear what you think about the different placements for your speakers.

...If I was instructed to put tweeters in the handle like you're leaning toward, I'd move them as far forward as possible to attampt to make the PLD between the two speakers more even.

oh... i must disagree.... I believe the best option is actually ample amounts of tactile transfucers.:biggrin:

[Ranger SVO]

...If I was instructed to put tweeters in the handle like you're leaning toward, I'd move them as far forward as possible to attampt to make the PLD between the two speakers more even.

I agree. If I had a do over I would move them further forward.

[sqcomp]

Line arrays of SUPATWEETAS! Whoot!

How about a whole headliner of them? oooooooo purdy!

Hey DFA,

When you say less biased. Are you talking about having multiple center images or having a hard time locating a center image? If you feel the urge, take the tweeters out of the mounting and move them off axis to aiming toward the top of the instrument cluster. Listen for what happens to the image at that point.

...that is if you feel it needed...

Oh also, pull your seat back ALL the way. Take a listen to the stage. Anything different?

[DFA]

THIS

http://www.toddhata.com/cars/images/1yaris07.jpg

Is what I have in mind. As forward as the panel will let me.
I just tried a bunch of Bass Mekanik tracks on my setup and it sounds pretty damn good (for my ears anyway). All I need is to rake up some more cash and blow it on a sub and I'm good to go.

By 'biased' I meant being able to clearly locate the center image, but feeling somehow closer to one of the 2 edges (in this case, left edge of the stage) than the other. Dunno if that makes any sense, hate it when my english decides to be lacking when I want to try to get a point across, haha.

I'm pretty satisfied with how the tweeters sound on the door panels. Putting them on top of the dash, just behind the lateral A/C vents was the best possible soundstage I got, but I'm not going to go drilling holes into my dash, and surface mounted tweets have never looked good to me. I feel it's a good compromise. Soundstage was just a bit lopsided, but It's only noticeable doing test tracks and is nowhere near messed up enough to bother me.

And well, the reason why I'm having fun trying every crazy tweeter position I can come up with is because I haven't mounted them yet.
Since I've asked about 2 times now and haven't got an answer, I'm going to assume that I'll have no problems with the door panels being slightly curved and the tweeter 'lip' that goes onto the panel to flush-mount is not.

[Ranger SVO]

The slight curve on the panel was not a problem for me, it looks good and overall I really like the way it woke up the sound in the car. Big,Big, improvement.

[DFA]

All done!
Thank you sqcomp for giving me all the tools to allow me to make the best decision I possibly could, and not imposing your own criteria like a lot of car audio experts do a lot of the time. Thanks alot to everyone for all the input.

Overall, I really like how it plays. As I mentioned, soundstage sounds a tiny bit lopsided to one side, but it's nothing bad enough to drive me crazy. I'm really happy with my system. :)

http://img214.imageshack.us/img214/7460/image0044y.th.jpg (http://img214.imageshack.us/i/image0044y.jpg/) http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/3734/image0042n.th.jpg (http://img297.imageshack.us/i/image0042n.jpg/) http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/9205/image0046.th.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/image0046.jpg/) http://img541.imageshack.us/img541/5821/image0045.th.jpg (http://img541.imageshack.us/i/image0045.jpg/)

[sqcomp]

Hey, ultimately it YOUR sound, not ours. I'm glad we all could help.

Oh, what you're hearing is what I was referring to about pathlength difference (PLD). It's a time alignment issue (to a point). By moving the tweeters up away from you, you even out (to a greater extent) that issue you have. I'm not saying do it, I'm just giving you the answer to the issue.

Out of curiosity, what tweeters are those in the picture? They look like Pioneer Premier or DLS tweeters. The display and computer I'm using here in Kuwait isn't the best...

In my case, we're looking at making a custom waveguide (just to be clear...NOT a horn load)for the L4 and L1 Pro SE tweeters IN the dash pad. One of my fellow team members did this with just the midrange (L4) and the result is SPECTACULAR. Good enough for him to be the best sounding car in the IASCA pro class in Canada this last year (Pro SQI Champion). He's also Started off with a 1st place showing at the SBN in the pro class a few weeks ago...

http://caraudiomag.com/sites/default/files/images/00000/05/89/0a77e3b01b5754edceb08fcff676117b.jpg

http://caraudiomag.com/sites/default/files/images/00000/07/90/d8838709bd13be0a60c126d2def9694c.jpg

I am aiming to improve the design...

[derickveliz2]

Why in the component instruction's say "keep tweeters within 12 inches from the mid-base woofer"?

I can't wait until the 15th...

.

[sqcomp]

They're crossing over the tweeter at a low frequency range. There are issues if you have a low crossover point AND have a high mounted tweeter. You'll have male vocals become more centered and female vocals edge out closer to the tweeters. There are several reason for this, one is head shadowing, and the time delay difference between the mid and the tweeter.

You can usually tell with a separated set and a low crossover where the crossover point is by hearing the subtle cues on the soundstage. If you separate your speakers like that with a low crossover point, you will tend to have a less defined center image across the spectrum. Time alignment CAN help solidify that image issue BUT, it is better to re aim and re place your speakers if you're using a passive with a low crossover point.

In my case, I won't have that issue due to the nature of the speaker locations AND the fact that I'm completely active.

[derickveliz2]

Where can we learn more about this active/passive and crossover points?

[Mobius1]

books. lol

[DFA]

Tweeter model reads 'Pioneer DS-759A'
Came with this component kit: http://www.crutchfield.com/p_130TSA1702/Pioneer-TS-A1702C.html?tp=106&tab=review

[derickveliz2]

Does this diagram helps me understand what active / passive crossover points are?

Thanks

.

[derickveliz2]

So if I don't use an Active Crossover I should install my tweeters within 12 inches from my mid-base speaker?

.

[sqcomp]

He he...

Ahh, USD Audio Waveguides. I have a pair in storage.

That diagram simply tells you that this person is using passives off one of the RF amplifiers. Why? I don't know. He already has an active 3 way crossover. I'd really have to get to this system in particular to see what and why he's doing what he's doing.

Now, I'm NOT saying if you're passively crossing your system you NEED to keep the tweeter and the mid close...that being said, this TOTALLY depends on the crossover point you're at with the passive. If it's low (the crossover point), then you'll probably find that you'll want to keep them closer together (for the reasons I mentioned earlier). My money is on the manufacturer's crossover point being between 2 KHz and 3.5 KHz.

Where can you learn about crossover points? Someone answered books, this is partially correct. What needs to happen as well is that if you want to learn, find someone with a completely active setup that know WTF is going on (not someone who just paid an installr to do everything). Sit and listen and then compare. Critical listening is the MAIN avenue for experience in crossover points.

Notice that I've mentioned not onlyabout crossover points, but placement, acoustic theory, and specific equipment use. ALL of these come into play when trying to do even the most simple system. It's just that a lot of us don't realize, or don't care to realize what is going on enough to try and learn WHY certain things are the way they are.

In my case my mid range speakers play a HUGE range of sound. I'll be using them from around 200 someodd Hz all the way up to anywhere from 6.5 KHz to maybe even 10 KHz. Why? Because I can. It eliminates the nasty mid/tweet crossover point issues that I'm referring to. The other reason I'm doing this is that the source I'm using gives me the ability to run a 4 way crossover network from the deck. This eliminates the need for outboard active or passive crossovers.

...Yes I'm tooing my own horn...

Regardless, my logic is simple and solid.

I digress, you will find that with the ability to change and adjust your crossover points, you can dramatically change what is happening with the performance of your sound system.

[talnlnky]

Where can we learn more about this active/passive and crossover points?

http://www.bcae1.com/

or Home theater forums. Car audio forums generally are 99% basshead who only know how to install decks, speakers, and amps.... where as home theater forums have a much higher percentage of people who design and build their own active crossovers, and sometimes even amplifiers.

[sqcomp]

You know what...that's a good one taln. I completely forgot about BCAE. Good idea for him!

[derickveliz2]

http://www.bcae1.com/.

Thank you, Thank you!

D.