Tests fail to duplicate acceleration problem in Prius

[JBougie]

If it looks like a chicken and walks like a chicken, it must be a .........

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/03/14/AR2010031402019.html

Investigators from Toyota and the government have been unable to duplicate the runaway acceleration in a 2008 Prius that a Southern California man said took him on a 30-mile wild ride last week, according to a draft memo from a congressional panel.

The tests on the Prius -- belonging to San Diego resident James Sikes, 61 -- were conducted in California on Wednesday and Thursday by officials from Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Also observing the test was a staffer from the House Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which has been investigating Toyota recall problems and heard testimony from top-ranking company officials in recent weeks.

Toyota and the NHTSA allowed the Republican committee staffer to observe the tests and report the findings to both parties on the committee after pressure was applied by Rep. Darrell Issa (R-Calif.), the committee's ranking member. The memo obtained by The Washington Post is a draft of the final report.

The memo was reported over the weekend by the Associated Press.

"On our test drive, the field technician tried to duplicate the same experience that Mr. Sikes experienced," the staffer wrote in the memo. "After about two hours of driving he was unsuccessful. Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down."

The failure to duplicate the incident is not unusual; Toyota has said it has had difficulty duplicating other reported incidents of runaway vehicles. Sikes's attorney, John Gomez, told the Associated Press that the results do not cast doubt on his client's story and that Sikes is not trying to profit from the incident.

Issa spokesman Kurt Bardella disagreed, saying Sunday that "these findings certainly raise new questions surrounding the veracity of the sequence of events that has been reported by Mr. Sikes."

Sikes reported last week that he was unable to get his Prius to stop as it reached speeds of 94 mph even as he pressed both feet on the brake. That part of Sikes's story was verified by the technicians.

"The investigators removed the front tires from the car and a handful of brake dust fell out," the memo reads. "Visually checking the brake pads and rotor it was clearly visible that there was nothing left."
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The congressional memo quotes Toyota's David Justo, identified as the company's expert on hybrids, as saying the Prius was designed in such a way that it will shut down if the gas pedal is pushed to the floor and the brakes are applied.

"It does not appear to be feasibly possible, both electronically and mechanically that his gas pedal was stuck to the floor and he was slamming on the brake at the same time," Justo is quoted as saying.

Sikes and his lawyer also witnessed last week's tests on his vehicle. Records show that Sikes filed for bankruptcy two years ago with $700,000 in debt, but has said repeatedly since the incident last week that he seeks no money from Toyota. Sikes called 911 from his runaway vehicle and was finally able to stop his car, he said, after a police cruiser pulled alongside and shouted instructions over a loudspeaker.

On Wednesday, another Toyota driver reported a runaway Prius, this one a 2005 model, which police said struck a stone wall, causing minor injuries to the driver.

The NHTSA has identified 52 deaths in instances of runaway Toyota acceleration. The company has said all along that the problem is caused by mechanical, not electronic, issues. As such, Toyota has recalled more than 6 million vehicles to fix what it calls floor-mat entrapment and sticky gas pedals. However, the NHTSA is investigating Toyota's electronics, including its electronic throttle control system, and Toyota has hired an outside consultant to do the same.

The congressional memo says that the NHTSA bought the gas pedal, throttle body and two on-board computers from Sikes's Prius for $2,500 and plans to investigate them further.

[sbergman27]

So as the score stands, Sikes has made $2,500 from this incident. And the executive branch of the U.S. government is keen to reward him further. Logic and reason have clearly been defenestrated by the United States.

[silver_echo]

no he has not made any money... the government bought the parts from toyota for further investigation...

[JBougie]

I'm glad they are exposing this guy for a fraud.

[sbergman27]

no he has not made any money... the government bought the parts from toyota for further investigation...

Who owned the parts? Sikes bought the car, and so they were his parts. But he was several payments behind on his loan. So if the loan company foreclosed, they'd own the parts. And if the loan company was Toyota, then they would get the $2,500. So was the loan company Toyota? And did they foreclose upon James Sike's loan? Or did Sikes get the money?

-Steve

[Kioshi]

only a few exist in current times that will find a cure to problems themselves....*sigh*

[coffiend]

http://snasm.com/article/abc-news-toyota-test-fiasco-fakery

while were in the topic of false information...

[JBougie]

That is so upsetting :/

[sbergman27]

That is so upsetting :/
If I watched TV, I'd boycott ABC. That's the problem with a lot of these nasty companies. I don't use or do business with them anyway. So when they do something especially evil, all I can do is *continue* not using them. It is sometimes frustrating.

-Steve

[Altitude]

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3140/1001293gl.jpg

wow that is a classic from echodrivers.com....

I don't know why they would do that given that they already have the clips to hold the mat in place. :iono:

[JBougie]

^Because those clips suck, and don't keep your mat held in place.

That's a good extra to ensure your mat doesn't get stuck under your clutch/gas/brake.

[Altitude]

^Because those clips suck, and don't keep your mat held in place.

That's a good extra to ensure your mat doesn't get stuck under your clutch/gas/brake.

Hmmm... hasn't been a problem for me. In fact, I find it difficult when I try to remove them from the clips for cleaning.

Anyhow...

Here's some more BS:

Driver claims runaway Camry
John Moscicki, of Lake Oswego, Oregon, told the AP his 2007 Camry accelerated on its own five times before he got the vehicle fixed under the floor mat recall last month.

On March 4, his repaired Camry took off from a standing stop on the freeway and accelerated to 50 mph (80 kph) before Moscicki managed to stop it by shifting into neutral, hitting the brake with his left foot and pulling back the gas pedal with his right.

"It just went to the floor like some other system had control of it," said Moscicki, who raced high-performance sports cars and previously owned a Porsche restoration business.

----------
Bullshit. Apparently this guy didn't bother to review the dissection of the pedals as they contain no cables, motors, solenoids or other type of actuator that would cause the pedal to become depressed of its own accord. He may have pressed it and it became stuck, but it sure as hell didn't move on its own.

[127.0.0.1]

Hmmm... hasn't been a problem for me. In fact, I find it difficult when I try to remove them from the clips for cleaning.

Anyhow...

Here's some more BS:

Driver claims runaway Camry
John Moscicki, of Lake Oswego, Oregon, told the AP his 2007 Camry accelerated on its own five times before he got the vehicle fixed under the floor mat recall last month.

On March 4, his repaired Camry took off from a standing stop on the freeway and accelerated to 50 mph (80 kph) before Moscicki managed to stop it by shifting into neutral, hitting the brake with his left foot and pulling back the gas pedal with his right.

"It just went to the floor like some other system had control of it," said Moscicki, who raced high-performance sports cars and previously owned a Porsche restoration business.

----------
Bullshit. Apparently this guy didn't bother to review the dissection of the pedals as they contain no cables, motors, solenoids or other type of actuator that would cause the pedal to become depressed of its own accord. He may have pressed it and it became stuck, but it sure as hell didn't move on its own.

yup.

the old cable operated ones move, as in my 4runner. but not anything drive-by-wire

[sqcomp]

I have to apologize for this John Moscicki dip$hit. I am ashamed to say that this baloonhead is not 5 miles from my old house.

I don't have much good to say about Lake O denizens anyway. Bunch of money grubbing, stuff shirt jacka$$es.

[fmicle]

^Because those clips suck, and don't keep your mat held in place.

That's a good extra to ensure your mat doesn't get stuck under your clutch/gas/brake.

What???

I don't understand what people do to make their mats move like that. The ones in my car (whatever comes standard with the base version) don't even slide around because they stick almost like velcro to the carpet layer underneath. Even without the clips, what do people do to make that mat slide? They do realize this is not a "Fred Flintstone" type of car, right? You don't have to push it with your feet... Beats me...

Same thing, I found it difficult to take the mat off just to wash it, let alone "accidentally" move it...

:iono:

[sbergman27]

What??? I don't understand what people do to make their mats move like that.
Just to inject a little reality into all this... in 30 years of driving... I have *never* had a car with floor mats that hooked, tied, or were otherwise secured, and have *never* had *any* sort of an issue that even *hinted* at being a safety problem.

Even we here on YW seem to have bought into the media hype on this matter. Perhaps the pedals on some Toyota models *are* designed such that it can (on rare occasion) become an issue; I don't know. But one thing that's for sure is that the pedals on *our* cars aren't.

I think that as the media claims have become more and more outré, we've come to be less critical about the earlier, less bizarre, but no less flawed claims that have been made. Personally... I suspect that the floor mat recall is largely due to the fact that Toyota felt that they had to appear to be doing *something*. It's hard to know what to do when it's clear to you that there isn't really a problem, but the media has whipped half the world into a frenzy of distrust against you.

-Steve

[why?]

the clips on my car broke within a few months, and i did have problems with them sliding around. So I took them out, not exactly hard. I've had problems with floor mats sliding around in a few different cars, and i removed them.

[sbergman27]

the clips on my car broke within a few months, and i did have problems with them sliding around.
My "Certified Used" Yaris didn't come with factory mats, so I'm using aftermarket mats, as I always have. Do the factory mats not come with non-slip bottom sides?

-Steve

[tk-421]

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:

[...]the staffer wrote in the memo: "After about two hours of driving he was unsuccessful. Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down."

They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.

[Altitude]

Steve - The factory mats do have a non-slip underside. It acts sort of like velcro against the carpet only not quite as strong.

why? - Just curious, when you exit your car, do you use your left leg to lift your weight out or do you use your right leg to push yourself out? Just wondering what it is being done by certain people that causes those carpet clips to fail.

[Gideon]

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:



They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.

Because they also stated that if a Prius whose engine was engaged at WOT, applying the brakes (because of the regenerative braking system) would cause the engine to seize or more likely the gears in the transmission would be destroyed. Apparently that's one of the reasons for having such a system is to protect the car's engine.

That's outlined in the full memo (6 total pages btw, not just one) from the Oversight and Government Reform Committee after having Toyota engineers examine/test the vehicle.

[sbergman27]

And people keep dying over this,
Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

Regarding Sikes... I'd love for the NHTSA to do an intensive investigation into just how and when Sikes front brakes... and only the front brakes... got worn. (Remember, the rears were fine.) The most likely scenario is that he removed the lining material himself before making his fateful drive. That way he could stomp the brake pedal (theatrically lifting his buttocks off the seat for the officers to see) while simultaneously generating the burning brake odor claimed to have been smelled by the police, without that actually stopping the car, which would have ruined the drama of it all.

Now... if someone could just find direct evidence of it.

-Steve

Edit: Of course, stomping on the brake would have brought the engine back to idle, in any case, via the override provision. So probably just continuous moderate braking over a long period. Enough to get the rear brakes hot enough to smell: http://tinyurl.com/yb7okc8

"Buttock pumping", then, was likely on the accelerator pedal.

[silver_vios]

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:



They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.


ugh..

a)there is a mechanical problem with pedals
b)sykes is lying
c)the two are unrelated and are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think

Your so hyped up by the media you aren't even mad about the right(wrong) thing

[tk-421]

ugh..

a)there is a mechanical problem with pedals
b)sykes is lying
c)the two are unrelated and are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think

Your so hyped up by the media you aren't even mad about the right(wrong) thing

:laugh:

I didn't know there was a "right" and "wrong" thing to be "mad" about. I only tend to get mad at stuff that actually concerns me (less headaches that way), but I'll keep it in mind nonetheless.

[tk-421]

Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

That's not my point. Even if every single one of those 52 deaths are not related, don't you think Toyota should take every precaution, if only to keep people off their backs? I, for one, would feel much safer knowing that their technicians are open to the idea that they are not perfect and constantly improving their testing methodologies because of it.

To me, one 2 hour test on one car under controlled driving conditions (that are likely quite different from what these drivers experienced at the time) is just not enough to put the issue to rest.

Even if it *is* because of driver error (which it may very well be, I'm no expert), don't you think it's Toyota's responsibility to inform the public about the issue as best it can?

[silver_vios]

^^ This is *one* test on *one* car. They aren't putting the *issue* to rest, they are telling *one* old man, he's full of it.

The *public* either is smart enough to know the truth, or dumb enough to keep listening to the news regardless of facts(as has been shown). A PSA from toyota serves no purpose.

[sbergman27]

I, for one, would feel much safer knowing that their technicians are open to the idea that they are not perfect and constantly improving their testing methodologies because of it...
...
... don't you think it's Toyota's responsibility to inform the public about the issue as best it can?
Short of suing their customers and the mass media, I'm not sure what more they could be doing. Not one of the alleged incidents has been reproducible with the vehicle that the alleged incident has allegedly happened in. And you can bet they've done a huge amount of testing internally. How do you fix a problem which only exists in the imaginations of millions of people?

The root of the problem is that so many people are willing to believe extraordinary claims in the absence of evidence. But that problem has evaded solution for all of recorded history. And no doubt for a long time before that.

-Steve

[tk-421]

^^ This is *one* test on *one* car. They aren't putting the *issue* to rest, they are telling *one* old man, he's full of it. A PSA from toyota serves no purpose.

See, the way I look at it is: It's all about the politics. If Toyota can successfully close a case that has garnered so much publicity as this one has, it becomes much easier to put the actual issue to rest later on, even if future cases are more credible than Sykes'. It simply gives them leverage.

The *public* either is smart enough to know the truth, or dumb enough to keep listening to the news regardless of facts(as has been shown).

The public (or most of it) is only smart enough as the government wants it to be. It is up to the minority of *free-thinking* boys and girls to do their homework and become smarter than what the government and media expect them to be. Ironically, that means that one needs to listen to what they're saying from time to time in order to piece things together.

BTW, I'd like to know where you get your news if not from... news sources?

[tk-421]

And you can bet they've done a huge amount of testing internally

And my point is, if they have done this testing they should really let us know about it! Not only show results, but the actual methodology that was implemented. Which driving conditions were contemplated during testing? Were the cars brand new? Did they account for both mechanical and electrical scenarios? That kind of thing...

That way people with inquisitive minds will be more easily satisfied, and discussions would be rendered moot.

BTW I apologize if this information is actually out there and I just missed it.

[fmicle]

the clips on my car broke within a few months, and i did have problems with them sliding around. So I took them out, not exactly hard. I've had problems with floor mats sliding around in a few different cars, and i removed them.

Please tell us how do you get in an out of your car and what kind of forces do you apply to the mat to break those clips???

I get my 13 month old in and out of my Yaris HB at least twice a day and that's an awkward move usually, since I have to slide the passenger seat foward, put my right foot in the back, the left foot outside, shifting my weight + a 26 lb baby from my left foot to my right foot, to get him inside and strap him in his seat. The rear mats have a much smaller surface (about half?) and still they don't move at all! :iono:

[fmicle]

My "Certified Used" Yaris didn't come with factory mats, so I'm using aftermarket mats, as I always have. Do the factory mats not come with non-slip bottom sides?

-Steve

Yes, they do, they are almost like velcro. Every time I clean my car, I need to actually lift the mats up to position them correctly, because once they are down they will not slide!

[Gideon]

See, the way I look at it is: It's all about the politics. If Toyota can successfully close a case that has garnered so much publicity as this one has, it becomes much easier to put the actual issue to rest later on, even if future cases are more credible than Sykes'. It simply gives them leverage.

They don't have the ability to just "close the case", that's up the NHTSA. Doing such before the NHTSA posts their final report up would be PR suicide.

[sbergman27]

And my point is, if they have done this testing they should really let us know about it! Not only show results, but the actual methodology that was implemented.
I would not be averse to a more vigorous defense on Toyota's part. And, in fact, they may be trying. Toyota has two main organized enemies in this battle:

1. The U.S. Federal Government.

2. The mass media.

Unfortunately, unless they want to take out infomercial time on TV, whatever information they are trying to get out to the public gets filtered through #2.

Or perhaps the lack of a more forceful defense is a Japanese cultural thing. I really don't know.

But I do agree that something more is needed. I'm hoping that they are working on a real knock-out punch regarding Mr. Sikes' stunt. Something that might shift the suspicion over to all the other balloon boy claimants out there with no evidence to back up their stories. Which is where it belonged in the first place. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

-Steve

[fmicle]

Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

+1

A very good point! Interestingly, the "stuck accelerator" claims are nothing new. There are reports of "unintended acceleration" incindents way before the introduction of electronic throttle control and such, way back in the 80's!

One of my dad's cousins was involved in an accident about 20 years ago and it was determined that right before she flew off the road she had actually floored the gas pedal, thinking she was pressing the brake... The cops that investigated the accident told my dad that this happens quite often; people complain that their brakes didn't work, but there is absolutely no trace of braking (this is the time before there was ABS!) and no malfunctioning of the brakes can be found.

Everybody's reaction is to press the right foot in a panic moment... just some people forget to slightly move it to the left before pressing... which is all understandable in an emergency situation, when the body has to react in a split second... I don't judge them.

But when they go before Congress and start crying their eyes out and saying how God intervened after so many miles and stopped their car... that's when I get disgusted and switch the channel :wink:

[tk-421]

They don't have the ability to just "close the case", that's up the NHTSA. Doing such before the NHTSA posts their final report up would be PR suicide.

Good point. I guess I worded it poorly. I meant more along the lines of "in order for the case to be closed as quickly as possible", no matter who it is that actually has the power to do so.

[fmicle]

There we go, at least the case in NY was a typical case of "foot stuck to the wrong pedal" syndrome:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runaway_prius_ny;_ylt=AtnSXujIar99Xg1382rNZxas0 NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTNuajZvbGJ2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMTAwMzIyL 3VzX3J1bmF3YXlfcHJpdXNfbnkEY2NvZGUDbW9zdHBvcHVsYXI EY3BvcwM1BHBvcwMyBHB0A2hvbWVfY29rZQRzZWMDeW5faGVhZ GxpbmVfbGlzdARzbGsDbnlwb2xpY2VhZ3Jl

[Altitude]

So... did the media lose interest or did the Toyota's miraculously heal themselves?