gude-head-1NZ-FE

[GnomeBody]

Does any one know what the low down is on a gude-head-1NZ-FE (http://www.fastscions.com/scion-xa-xb-gude-performance-cylinder-head-package.aspx)

Will this buy me anything on a NA motor? or am I gunna have to combine it with fuel management or FI to really net any gains.

All and all, Im not really looking to build a race car, Im just trying to figure out what my options are to reshape my powerband to match my driving habits. For example, I never really go faster than 60 or 70 mph (no interstate driving) because all my driving is to work and back (Its all backroads or stop and go) Any other driveing normaly means Ive got the family in tow so I end up taking take the gen2 XB (hence why Im also considering getting rid of my backseat). To change the shape of my powerband I think my best bet would be custom cams, witch Im willing to do if it makes driving to work more fun, dont know what it would cost tho...


To be completely honest, Ive be entertaining the idea of sacrificing some pony's from the top in turn for some more torque at the bottom. maybe even combine it with a slightly smaller than stocktire diameter. I think I could be ok with my car topping out at 85 if it meant an equal trade in off the line acceleration lol.

[cali yaris]

No one knows, at least on the Yaris. Order one and see, then we'll all know. :smile:

What does Gude say and/or guarantee about management?

[06silveryaris]

I do not know how well the Gude head will increase power considering base power of the car. What I have read on local forums here is the prius pistons swap from what I have heard it a plug and play operation and swapping injectors for corolla or Tc's. I have yet to see one running on the street or track

[GnomeBody]

It just says up to +40hp but Im assuming thats max with other mods. The price is a bit much for me to justify without some sort of estimate on what to expect on a stock N/A setup. I could just spend the money towards a supercharger.

there description says...
"1. Intake ports are ported to create maximum velocity then rough cross hatched to provide better fuel atomization, which increases combustion efficiency providing increased power both at low and high rpm.
2. Exhaust ports are ported to relive internal pressure quickly, yet provide enough velocity to scavenge well, insuring a full fresh fuel and air charge will be delivered to the combustion chambers, not diluted down with left over spent gases from the last firing.
3. Head surface is milled them hand lapped to create a multi directional #32 micro Finish surface, this leaving hundreds of micro ridges to be crushed down by the steel gasket forming a super micro barrier for better gasket sealing.
4. Intake to head ports are purposely mismatched or stepped to fight unwanted reverberation and to reduce boundary layer effects improving port flow.
5. Valve seats we have tried 3 angles so called 5 angle, and many other valve and seat combinations, we have found that the factory angle on the valve is overall the best and that the blended radius parabolic valve seats pioneered by Gude performance provides the most horse power and longevity on most Imports.
6. Valve guides in most cases we have found that shorting the valve guide is helpful and will promote increased flow while still maintaining excellent valve control.
7. Valve springs all Gude performance camshafts are designed to operate to extreme rpm on stock valve springs, we spent countless hours designing and developing profile which will not require a high pressure valve spring which can cause added friction and valve stem failure due to the high loading of stiffer springs vale stem failure will usually cause major engine damage..
8. Camshafts Gude performance Bullfrog or Stinger cams are included with all Gude head packages, all cams are ground to precise tolerances, and are of the famous Gude profiles. Gude poured out all 30 plus years of experience, into designing cam profiles that are stable at extreme high rpm with stock or light valve spring loading, this increasing horse power and engine reliability, as high valve spring loads can case excessive wear and result in total valve stem failure destroying a expensive engine. "



Could all that net +40 on an N/A

my other question was... On the core deposits... is that ontop of the price? I really need to just email them.

[GnomeBody]

Oh yeah! Thanks garm! Im loving the suspension. Ive been meaning to post up some pics of the drop I got out of them but my ugly steely rims keep giving reason to postpone lol the dang things keep messing up my pictures.

[cali yaris]

Valve springs all Gude performance camshafts are designed to operate to extreme rpm on stock valve springs,

what does extreme rpm mean? and how does that help if the 1NZ doesn't make power up there?

Someone just needs to bite the bullet, bolt it on, and report back.

[H3LlIoN]

Someone just needs to bite the bullet, bolt it on, and report back.


Working on that.

[Bluevitz-rs]

I'm pretty sure the 1NZ won't make any more power after 6500 because of the flow design of the head and cam profile in a N/A tune.

If you're to look at a dyno graph of a 2ZZ it stops making power at about 6000 but then the high profile cam lobe kicks in and power starts to climb again.

It's also the probable cause of the engine starting to richen up just before redline on the 1NZ. Flow can't keep up to the demand of the pistons.

To the OP, that head, if it does what it claims, would shift the power band much higher. That's the only way to make more power N/A other than increasing the displacement.

And Prius pistons would increase the CR to 13:1. So unless you're running on aviation fuel and running a standalone EM, it's a little out of the question for a DD.

[GnomeBody]

^^^ thats what Im affraid of. It may be no point without alot of other mods to go with it. I think the Gude head comes with custom ground cams to match all the other work done to it, so it might indeed be tweaked to produce power at higher RPMs.

I was hopeing that a port and polish would increase flow and give a little more pep in its step, but after reading all the way threw "This Infamous Thread" (http://scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27533) Im starting to rethink my plan a little. The author of the thread says in one post...

"Extrude Hone and Flow
I had high hopes for the extrude hone process on my head but am somewhat disappointed in the results. EH suggests a 15-20% flow improvement and I was no where near that. Tom called me last night with the flow data. The good news is that the head did improve overall. The bad news is that the low lift intake numbers are down and the overall improvements are maybe in the 4-5% range and more on the exhaust side which is not as important as the intake side.
Picture

Why did the intake side get worse at low lift? The answer is most likely this...most intake ports are a cylinder or tube, but at the very end, just before the valve, the tube narrows. I think this is engineered into the port to achieve the venturi effect, just like with carburetors. The extrude hone process most likely minimizes this effect which hurt low flow on the intake side. The exhaust port does not have this shape and benefitted more. The ported intake did improve from .250 and up and this is a good thing, but the improvements are small. Our exhaust to intake ratio improved. I tend to think nearing 80% is optimal. Going with averages, the intake flow improved about 1% and the exhaust flow improved 9%. What is this worth on the dyno? I'd be surprised if it is worth 3hp and that is a disappointment for the hours of work and expense. I'll know for sure in the next 10 days.

Tom felt that the head could be improved a good deal with hand porting. If you can find a race shop that specializes in porting import cylinder heads, bigger gains would most likely be found."

[GnomeBody]

Now Im starting to think that maybe my game plan should be to either ....

A)bore the cylinders, leave the intake side alone for the most part and port the exhaust side.
-Or-
B) swap in prius pistons and convert the whole dang thing to CNG or Propane.

one way or the other, it looks like I need to pick up a second motor if I really want to do anything crazy. I was looking at one for like $400 but god only know how much shipping would cost. Might be cheaper to find a local junker and pull the motor myself.

[H3LlIoN]

I am getting ready to submit an order for the gude head. The only modification to my car so far performance wise is the AEM intake. I will run it on a dyno the way she sits, and then swap head and run it again, if you ask nicely. :)

[Yoda]

...please

[GnomeBody]

Yes! Please!!!

[CtrlAltDefeat]

please x2 :biggrin: I'm interested in the numbers...

[redglare45]

Yes, +1. Please let us know the #'s. Hoping you get a nice gain.

[H3LlIoN]

Wow...you guys are showing some serious love!

Head....ordered.

[blacksandiegovitz]

Wow...you guys are showing some serious love!

Head....ordered.

^^seriously??? What are the details on what you bought :drool:

[GnomeBody]

What's the deal with the core charges? is that ontop of the price?

[H3LlIoN]

The guy's name is Bill, he seems cool. Waiting to hear back from him in terms of cam profiles and recommended FMS...It's $1650 for the head package, plus $350 if you don't have a head to send him. (He goes to the junkyard and pulls one to mill for you) So, if you have a head, it's just the $1650 plus shipping both ways. Complete milled head, custom cams, large bore custom throttle body. Waiting on more details...he calling me in the morning, will keep you posted. Mine is on the way.

[H3LlIoN]

^^seriously??? What are the details on what you bought :drool:

Dead serious. Be jealous. :biggrin:

[H3LlIoN]

I'm pretty sure the 1NZ won't make any more power after 6500 because of the flow design of the head and cam profile in a N/A tune.


He regrinds the heads completely and then grinds custom cams. Also, his hp gains are going to require aftermarket tuning...the majority of his customers are race teams running custom electronics. I think I am his first 1nz street customer, looking in to camcon that Garm recommended, also going to talk to Bill about his recommendations...see what he was running to post a 30% gain

[GnomeBody]

:headbang:

[06silveryaris]

Sounds good:w00t:, and regarding the prius pistons my buddy Oscar who has a euro repair shop has a new tech who happens to be a Toyota guy and he was telling me about clearance issues when putting the prius pistons in the Yaris block. He did mention that can be cured by using the head from a 2000 echo. He was also telling me about quite a few 2zz echo's driving around he mentioned he would post some vids on youtube.

[GnomeBody]

cured by using the head from a 2000 echo

interesting... I'll have to remember that.

[Parmas]

The Gude Head package tempted me alot but I think for me as a hole package isn't worth the money.

I have 2 questions for H3Liton:

1. Could you ask Bill how much it costs to order ONLY the so called Bullfrog or Stinger cams and ship it to Europe. I am not intending to send him mine since shipping costs will be more worth to buy new cams.

2. Garm asked an important thing... they mentioned "all Gude performance camshafts are designed to operate to extreme rpm on stock valve springs". What is the extreme RPM number exactly?

Thanks in advance and good luck for your project man

[H3LlIoN]

Parmas -

Email sent, will let you know what he replies. I should be hearing from him later this morning.

[hondakiller99]

i second the thought of just the cams, i would love to know what he wants just for those

[PHXDEMON]

Wow...you guys are showing some serious love!

Head....ordered.

:bow:

[H3LlIoN]

Just talked a little more to Bill...for those of you running dry NOS kits on your current set up, you would have to work out a wet kit in order to spray the Gude head. Apparently, the reason you can get away with a 50 dry shot is because of a padded fuel curve in the stock ECU that supplies enough to keep up with the spray. The Gude head/cams eat through that extra fuel, so any spray after Gude has to be wet. He was a bit more technical about it, but you get the idea. He emailing me now.

Also, if this works out, be sure to mention my name, as he offered me a kickback for anyone that I send his way. :biggrin: Of course, you'll have to PM me for my real name. :thumbup:

[cali yaris]

milled head, custom cams, large bore custom throttle body.

milled, meaning higher compression?

throttle body? to attach to the stock intake mani? :iono:

I'm sure glad you're doing this, so many questions to be resolved, good for everyone. :clap:

[H3LlIoN]

He responded:

The cam kit is 750.00 exchange see attached, sorry the Scion has to have valve springs we could not get the level of performance we require on the stock springs as we usually do on most models, the head kit is 1650.00 exchange, and the throttle body is 295.00 exchange.

[hondakiller99]

double damn!!!!! i love owing a scion..... just more road blocks for me to blow up!!!! lol well kep me posted on that haed kit cuz i have been looking at one for a whileee

[Parmas]

He responded:

The cam kit is 750.00 exchange see attached,.

$750 including new cams? What about the exchange word? Does this price is only referred to work on cams only?

What have he sent you in attached?

What about the extreme rpm number question? Is there any proof of what he claims?

I'm sure he must understand we are in need of answers before commiting to buy

[H3LlIoN]

I organized your post sequentially for my benefit, answers below.


1) $750 including new cams?
2) What about the exchange word?
3) Does this price is only referred to work on cams only?
4) What have he sent you in attached?
5) What about the extreme rpm number question?
6) Is there any proof of what he claims?


1) $750 plus shipping will get you a set of cams/springs for your car.

2) Exchange means you send him a set of factory cams to replace the ones he ground to make your new ones. You can either send him cams ahead of time, or wait for yours to come in, as long as you let him know ahead of time. Unsure of what the core charge on just cams is. It was $350 on the head/cams package.

3) $750 covers new cams, bearings and spring set.

4) The attached file was just the link for the head package that has already been posted in this thread, nothing new.

5) As far as the extreme RPM question, he can grind you a set of 1NZ cams that will turn 10,000 rpm.

6) As far as proof, we'll see what happens when the goods get here and I get the car dyno'd. You aren't gonna see a 30% gain on just a set of cams obviously. That gain is claimed on the whole head package, which includes custom cams, large bore ported TB and complete custom milled head.

[Parmas]

I organized your post sequentially for my benefit, answers below.



1) $750 plus shipping will get you a set of cams/springs for your car.

2) Exchange means you send him a set of factory cams to replace the ones he ground to make your new ones. You can either send him cams ahead of time, or wait for yours to come in, as long as you let him know ahead of time. Unsure of what the core charge on just cams is. It was $350 on the head/cams package.

3) $750 covers new cams, bearings and spring set.

5) As far as the extreme RPM question, he can grind you a set of 1NZ cams that will turn 10,000 rpm.

6) As far as proof, we'll see what happens when the goods get here and I get the car dyno'd. You aren't gonna see a 30% gain on just a set of cams obviously. That gain is claimed on the whole head package, which includes custom cams, large bore ported TB and complete custom milled head.


I don't wish to send him my cams, I wish that he use new cams and work on them and ship them to me. If bearings and spring set are stock I don't need them. So that will be $350 or $750? How much for shipping to Malta, Europe?

Are you sure is 10,000 rpm? Do you really think a 1NZFE can withstand and make power at 10K rpm?

I am looking forward for your car to be dyno'd ! :bow:

[H3LlIoN]

I don't wish to send him my cams, I wish that he use new cams and work on them and ship them to me. If bearings and spring set are stock I don't need them. So that will be $350 or $750? How much for shipping to Malta, Europe?

Are you sure is 10,000 rpm? Do you really think a 1NZFE can withstand and make power at 10K rpm?

I am looking forward for your car to be dyno'd ! :bow:


I'm starting to think language is our barrier. If you don't want to send him your cams, then he will go to junkyard and get a set, but you have to pay core charge for that. Will message him and see what that fee amounts to. Bearings and springs are not the stock ones. Springs are heavier duty. I have no idea how much shipping is to malta, I'll ask. He frequently ships internationally though, as he mentioned he has already sent about 30 cam sets to Thailand and Malaysia. As far as the 10k, yes, it MIGHT withstand it, but not for long. It obviously wouldn't be reliable. If you want 10k consistent, he can build you a motor for that. His price is right around $3500.

[Parmas]

Bearings and springs are not the stock ones. Springs are heavier duty.... As far as the 10k, yes, it MIGHT withstand it, but not for long. It obviously wouldn't be reliable. If you want 10k consistent, he can build you a motor for that. His price is right around $3500.

Re: Springs, If he said they aren't stock so why on Gude Describtion say:

"7. Valve springs all Gude performance camshafts are designed to operate to extreme rpm on stock valve springs, we spent countless hours designing and developing profile which WILL NOT require a high pressure valve spring which can cause added friction and valve stem failure due to the high loading of stiffer springs vale stem failure will usually cause major engine damage.."

Re: 10Krpm ... I am thinking to build more my motor but I never thought of reving it near 10K neither

[H3LlIoN]

Re: Springs, If he said they aren't stock so why on Gude Describtion say:

"7. Valve springs all Gude performance camshafts are designed to operate to extreme rpm on stock valve springs, we spent countless hours designing and developing profile which WILL NOT require a high pressure valve spring which can cause added friction and valve stem failure due to the high loading of stiffer springs vale stem failure will usually cause major engine damage.."

Re: 10Krpm ... I am thinking to build more my motor but I never thought of reving it near 10K neither

Re: Springs...it's a generic package description. Most of his applications he is able to make his cams work with stock springs. He said though that on the 1NZ, the reliability just wasn't there, so they have to be upgraded, but they come with the cam when you purchase it. I don't know what all the fuss is about, his price is right in line with the $700 you guys are talking about spending on those other cams in the performance forum. As of right now, I am planning on just throwing the whole package on there and dyno-ing...if the goods get here and it's relatively easy, I might pull cams out and put them in my factory head and dyno for you guys. Also depends on cost of dyno.

As far as your build, 10k is not unheard of. It's been a while but, if i remember right, the key is a short piston with a long rod/throw. I wouldn't try and boost a 10k motor though, that's more of a N/A endeavor.

[hondakiller99]

I wouldn't try and boost a 10k motor though, that's more of a N/A endeavor.
a thing that has been crossing my mind so many times before..... any one ever made a high compression all motor 1nz?

[Parmas]

I will be waiting for your dyno to see the progress... until then we sit tight

[H3LlIoN]

a thing that has been crossing my mind so many times before..... any one ever made a high compression all motor 1nz?

I have heard rumors of a prius piston swap, which of course bumps compression, but haven't seen any dyno sheets to correspond. After my head comes in, I'm gonna take the prius motor and see how far I can push it N/A, so I'll have more info to come.

[H3LlIoN]

I will be waiting for your dyno to see the progress... until then we sit tight



anybody wanna sponsor the dyno time? :biggrin:

[hondakiller99]

I have heard rumors of a prius piston swap, which of course bumps compression, but haven't seen any dyno sheets to correspond. After my head comes in, I'm gonna take the prius motor and see how far I can push it N/A, so I'll have more info to come.

sweet!! def wanna know what the diff is cuz im toying around with a few ideas at the moment, you by chance havent heard how far these blocks can be bored have you?

[H3LlIoN]

Garm is 1.6, he could probably tell you off hand how far it can go but, if not, I will ask my block guy when I drop mine off.

[Maitre_Te_Te]

I have a second head in my shop for the inz. I'm very interested on this thread. This setup with a blitz supercharge, it will be very great!!!

[cali yaris]

you by chance havent heard how far these blocks can be bored have you?

we bored and sleeved to just about 1.6L, as far as my motor builder was concerned, that's all she has to give.

I want to do a 1.8L and bore it to 2.0, that's a much thicker block than ours and will tolerate the mod better.

[H3LlIoN]

which 1.8 are you looking at?

[H3LlIoN]

Parmas -

Alright...Cams only core charge is $250. To be honest, that's a bit ridiculous to me but, if you decided you absolutely wanted to have a set of gude cams, I would carry my ass out to the junkyard and get a set of cores for you and ship them to him, provided you pay for shipping and part. Guarantee you it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than $250, but I reckon he is charging for his time to go get them too. Anyway, he estimates shipping to Malta in the $80 to $100 range, cams/springs he says weigh right around 14 pounds. If you have a postal code/zip (I have no idea how european addresses work) I will get you a more exact estimate.


Now...as a side note, I emailed him and asked:

"You have it mentioned that the yaris head package that I ordered can add up to 30% gain in horsepower. What can I do, besides the head package that you are sending me, to maximize this gain?"

And he responded:
"Headers and 2-1/2 exhaust will help"

Just food for thought...I'm still planning on doing dyno without exhaust for you guys. I might even slap stock intake back on there for you.

[H3LlIoN]

Oh and I just emailed this...

"Bill -

Another question from the forum guys...What kind of hp gain can be expected by just doing the Gude cams, without the tb and head?"

It'll be tomorrow before he answers, but I'll let you know what he says.

[kou]

which 1.8 are you looking at?

probably the one from the scion xd.that swap should be easy.

[Parmas]

Parmas -

Alright...Cams only core charge is $250. To be honest, that's a bit ridiculous to me but, if you decided you absolutely wanted to have a set of gude cams, I would carry my ass out to the junkyard and get a set of cores for you and ship them to him, provided you pay for shipping and part. Guarantee you it would be a hell of a lot cheaper than $250, but I reckon he is charging for his time to go get them too. Anyway, he estimates shipping to Malta in the $80 to $100 range, cams/springs he says weigh right around 14 pounds. If you have a postal code/zip (I have no idea how european addresses work) I will get you a more exact estimate.



Thanks for the update... so shipping charge is known now.

So if I send him cams the work total + springs + bearings would be $700 + $100 shipping right?

BTW postal code is ZTN04 (Area Code +356)

[H3LlIoN]

No, if you sent him cams, total would be $750 + shipping, which he ballparked around $100. Will send him postal code for actual shipping quote.

[H3LlIoN]

Oh and I just emailed this...

"Bill -

Another question from the forum guys...What kind of hp gain can be expected by just doing the Gude cams, without the tb and head?"

It'll be tomorrow before he answers, but I'll let you know what he says.

Bill emailed back and said to expect about a 15hp gain from cam kit alone.

[rob323]

Any idea where abouts in the rev range the cams are designed to produce power?

[Yoda]

Bill emailed back and said to expect about a 15hp gain from cam kit alone.

is that whp or just crank?

[H3LlIoN]

no clue, will ask.

[H3LlIoN]

is that whp or just crank?

and he responded "This reading was at the wheels, dyno’s from one to the other very rarely read the same."

[rob323]

Any idea where abouts in the rev range the cams are designed to produce power?

This will be important to those that don't have the facility to change their rev limit.

[d1nzfe]

i guess the cams will be sleeping before 5500rpm, so rev cut removal is needed.

[H3LlIoN]

Alright, asked him for a graph showing just cams, and this is what he sent back...dyno'd at wheels.

http://i42.tinypic.com/1taqol.jpg

[cali yaris]

red is with the cams?

This is on an xB? with any other mods?

[rob323]

I assume red is the power and black is the torque. But the graph is pretty meaningless without a stock cam baseline to compare it against. Although at least it is still making power right up to 6000 rpm, so that's a good sign.

[cali yaris]

looking more closely, it does say hp and torque on the red/black lines.

116 whp / 107 torque is what it says, I think?

does that O2 say 10.35?

[H3LlIoN]

You guys are killing me. I'm done until my stuff comes in...I'm tired of all the back and forth.

[rob323]

Yeah, I noticed that too. It's running pig rich, even if not naturally aspirated.:wink:

[rob323]

You guys are killing me. I'm done until my stuff comes in...I'm tired of all the back and forth.

Sorry about that H3LlIoN, but if someone wants to sell a product, you shouldn't have to milk them for all the relevant information.
Things like duration, lift, spring requirements, adjustable cam gear requirements, baseline and upgrade graphs, engine management mods, dialling in instructions etc should all be readily available and if offered up front, would save the milllion and one question being asked later.

[Gideon]

What's his email? Just have these guys email him and ask instead of being middleman. :iono:

[Yoda]

^+

[Parmas]

Although at least it is still making power right up to 6000 rpm, so that's a good sign.

I want to see a dyno till 7500rpm! My setup is with stock head and since now I make power till 6300rpm for sure. My main interest on these cams is that it can make power within range of 7000rpm - 8000rpm if not they aren't worth the price.

Of course a stock cam baseline versus gude cam will be more reliable to compare

[cali yaris]

You guys are killing me. I'm done until my stuff comes in...I'm tired of all the back and forth.

If you don't want the back and forth, don't post until you have the product in hand with some results, or be prepared for a lot of questions -- which is exactly what happened.

Mostly, I think people are excited that SOMEONE finally went for this, period.

[H3LlIoN]

I know, I know. I'm thinking I'm gonna swap factory airbox back in for the baseline run. If the heads come with cams already installed, then I'm gonna throw it on there and run it again. If not, I'll run the cams separately in my factory heads w/ factory airbox for you guys.

[cali yaris]

:bow:

[H3LlIoN]

Quick update...cores headed to cali priority. Should have this back next week.

[H3LlIoN]

Base line pulls scheduled for 930a Saturday, stock config.

[kou]

Can't wait to see the outcome.:respekt:

[GnomeBody]

The anticipation is killing me!

[H3LlIoN]

Well....talked to Bill a lil' bit ago. He got my head, so should have stuff next week. Emailed him for turn around time. How come you no come to track? Aren't you in NN? I totally jacked your thread, btw.

[H3LlIoN]

Best pull today...98.93 hp, 100.55 ft. lb tq.

[Yoda]

stock?

[cruz-gsr]

Best pull today...98.93 hp, 100.55 ft. lb tq.


what mods do you have in the car.

[H3LlIoN]

No performance mods. That's stock baseline, 87 octane gas.

[Nexus1155]

I'll read through the thread in a minute to see what was done to the heads, but a car with headers and exhaust made 102hp and 96tq. Are you happy with those results?

I am in no way trying to put you down with the money spent already, but a tune would probably go a long way along with some other tweaks.

[H3LlIoN]

Reading is fun.

[kngrsll]

Reading is fun.

lol

[Nexus1155]

ah ok baseline of your stock car, your posts were like im going to change this and this then baseline so i thought you meant baseline of just a stock car with heads

[H3LlIoN]

No performance mods. That's stock baseline, 87 octane gas.

I'll read through the thread in a minute to see what was done to the heads, but a car with headers and exhaust made 102hp and 96tq. Are you happy with those results?

I am in no way trying to put you down with the money spent already, but a tune would probably go a long way along with some other tweaks.


:iono:

[GnomeBody]

How come you no come to track? Aren't you in NN? I totally jacked your thread, btw.

I would have liked too, but Ive had to much stuff going on lately. Inbetween work and the family, spare time is rare. Its taken me 4 days split over three weekends to redo my stereo because every time I got started something would come up and take priority... (sigh)... as it is,on the last day I rushed to get it all finished because I havent had a radio since I started. Now I seem to be getting some ground loop noise witch Im going to have to dedicate another weekend into tracking down and eliminating

as for the thread Jacking, its all good man. Based off of what youve been posting, I'd say this thread should have been yours anyway:respekt:

[frownonfun]

how did i just notice this thread? subscribed.

[GnomeBody]

Any progess to report H3LlIoN???

[H3LlIoN]

Yup yup. I got in touch with Bill last night...he is busy whitling away at my head and cams. He expects that they will be shipped back out and headed my way by the end of next week. In the meantime, I have been trying to track down the xB gas pedal assembly, linkage and tb whip but, as of yet, have been unsuccessful. I might just end up ordering these through my contact at toyota. I have also been in touch with my tuner, and he is expecting me in approx two weeks time to get the cams dyno'd all by themselves. I am also working on getting a spot in the toyota bay this coming weekend so that I can plug me car in to the TSI techstream with the hopes of determining what ECU adjustments are available via the actual toyo channels. At the moment, my car is limping around in stock form as car parts galour adorn my spare room.

And for anyone curious as to what this is involving, and why there is a "donate" link in my sig,

return car to stock (done)
dyno (done)
pull engine
install cams
reinstall engine
dyno
pull engine
install head/pulleys/tb/whatever else I want
Reinstall engine
dyno.

Again, you're welcome. Now donate! :-P

[H3LlIoN]

P.S. gnome...we'll be headed to the track again soon, possibly as early as this coming friday, if you are interested. I know it's short notice, will try and give you more of a heads up next time.

[H3LlIoN]

Don't know what to tell you. The toyottech I am talking to is a very close friend of mine, so he will tell me the truth instead of the normal legal answer. I asked him if he had tuning abilities, and he said that he honestly didn't know. He said that some toyotas give have adjust-ability and that he could do in shop, and others can't. Only way to find out is to plug in and try, so that's what they doing. Will know more after but, if this works, I highly doubt you are going to be able to walk in to any toyo dealer and ask for this without some kind of special relationship.

[Nexus1155]

you forgot the other steps at the end.

ECU Tune
dyno again

check out www.car-part.com for junkyard listings of the parts you need. I am sure you'd find it there for fairly cheap

[GnomeBody]

I was reading through this TS-SS002-07(TECHSTREAM ECU FLASH REPROGRAMMING PROCEDURE) (http://www.etimago.com/yaris/TSB/TS-SS002-07(TECHSTREAM%20ECU%20FLASH%20REPROGRAMMING%20PROC EDURE).pdf) and Im lead to believe Camell might be correct.

[GnomeBody]

I keep hopeing someone will develope something similar to this solution for the tC (http://scionlife.com/forums/showthread.php?t=181043)

Now granted, it would be about as expensive as a standalone, but I think it would keep it street-legal atleast.

[H3LlIoN]

I keep forgetting all of you guys are worried about "street legal." Not sure why, Gnome, they don't hook our ECUs up here in VA. Anyway, Dezod (half the design team on that ECU) is pretty active in the 1NZ xB community, so I wouldn't be surprised if something rolls out from them. I'll pm a couple people and see what I can find out. Regarding the techstream info, I've already posted my thoughts on the issue...I won't further speculate until I get in to the shop and have actual info to comment on.

[GnomeBody]

^^^lol your kidding me right?!?!

I've never actually bothered to watch them do my state inspection so I wasnt sure... well damn, If thats the case than maybe their's a standalone in my future after all.

[cdydjded]

CTScott has a Techstream. It is not programable, he has tried. Techstream is only meant to reflash the ECU via Toyota TSB's. The reflash cannot be customized. That being said I still want you H3LlIon to try what you can to find a solution. A week ago I found out about the Techstream Lite & spoke to Techstream in detail about this issue.

As for the Dezod in Line ECU, a week ago I spoke to both Paul from Dezod & Allan from APR about their unit. They have no intention to make a unit for the Yaris, it is not financially feasible for them. But Paul did say that if I do the leg work in getting some technical specs on the Yaris ECU, he might change his mind. Iv have been working on that for him.

The issue is going to be the cost which will be in the $1800-$2000 price range or more. Now I know thats alot of $$$$ & it is not for everyone. This is not going to be for the N/A guy. This is a unit that will be for turbo or S/C. It will be comparable to a AEM EMS. It would be 100% better than a AEM FIC or Emanage. It would be a plug and play unit.

[cdydjded]

Also let me add that Dezod has their unit working on the TC & they just got it to work on the xB2.

[H3LlIoN]

CTScott has a Techstream. It is not programable, he has tried. Techstream is only meant to reflash the ECU via Toyota TSB's. The reflash cannot be customized. That being said I still want you H3LlIon to try what you can to find a solution. A week ago I found out about the Techstream Lite & spoke to Techstream in detail about this issue.

As for the Dezod in Line ECU, a week ago I spoke to both Paul from Dezod & Allan from APR about their unit. They have no intention to make a unit for the Yaris, it is not financially feasible for them. But Paul did say that if I do the leg work in getting some technical specs on the Yaris ECU, he might change his mind. Iv have been working on that for him.

The issue is going to be the cost which will be in the $1800-$2000 price range or more. Now I know thats alot of $$$$ & it is not for everyone. This is not going to be for the N/A guy. This is a unit that will be for turbo or S/C. It will be comparable to a AEM EMS. It would be 100% better than a AEM FIC or Emanage. It would be a plug and play unit.


I've been through his threads, I can't find anywhere where he has done a type up on his experimentation on the techstream, if he does have it. Why has he not mentioned? Also, unless he is with toyota, he most likely does not have access to TIS. Again, dude @ toyota said that some parameters are able to be changed, it depends on the vehicle. CTScott might have tried it, but I'm more of a "find out for myself" kind of guy. I got the techstream diagnostic cable already, hoping to get in this saturday and see what we're working with. As for Dezod, what kind of leg work is needed? PM me with specifics and I can see what I or my buddy @ Toyota can provide.

Oh and I love how you automatically assume that us N/A guys won't touch for that price. Also, from what I read, it is way easier to set up than EMS or comparable, since it uses all factory sensors.

[cdydjded]

So since there is no threads about CTScott & a Techstream that means the BS flag immediately comes out? I dont get it. I cant speak for him, but I was not going to mention my work with Dezod until I was more advance in the project. I feel now that it would have been a better decision on my part. Im glad you are a "find out for myself" guy, I am also. Please keep on reasearching the possibilities of the Techstream.

Im not assuming, Im basing it on historical fact from this forum. Most N/A guys here want $50 headers & $25 intakes.

[H3LlIoN]

So since there is no threads about CTScott & a Techstream that means the BS flag immediately comes out? I dont get it. I cant speak for him, but I was not going to mention my work with Dezod until I was more advance in the project. I feel now that it would have been a better decision on my part. Im glad you are a "find out for myself" guy, I am also. Please keep on reasearching the possibilities of the Techstream.

Im not assuming, Im basing it on historical fact from this forum. Most N/A guys here want $50 headers & $25 intakes.


You misunderstood me. I wasn't calling BS at all. (I believe we actually have a BS flag avatar for that) I was just remarking that I couldn't find any discussion/conclusions from him on the subject. You misunderstood my train of thought, or perhaps my delivery was ill worded. Apologies, if the latter is the case.

Regarding the work with Dezod, my offer still stands. If there is anything that we can provide, don't hesitate to ask; I'll be glad to help.

Also, $50 headers and $25 intakes are characteristic of bolt-on weekend drivers, not N/A guys. I'm basing that on 10 years spent in and around N/A teams, who spend two and three times what you would spend on FI to get [hopefully] the same power gains.

[cali yaris]

bolt-on weekend drivers, not N/A guys

I am quite sure he meant those to be synonymous.

[cdydjded]

No need for apologies, all is good. Thanks for the offer on the help, Ill keep you in mind for anything I cant figure out.

There are two spectrums of N/A, people here will never be like the one you spent time around.

[H3LlIoN]

There are two spectrums of N/A, people here will never be like the one you spent time around.


Haha I'm hoping to change all that with this thread.

[cdydjded]

You & me both!

[H3LlIoN]

So...I got an email from Bill today asking me to confirm my shipping address so...hopefully that means this isn't much longer. In the meantime, here are the baselines, stock config all in one place:

98.93 hp
100.55 tq
16.64 1/4 mile E.T.

[The Spectacle]

Yup yup. I got in touch with Bill last night...he is busy whitling away at my head and cams. He expects that they will be shipped back out and headed my way by the end of next week. In the meantime, I have been trying to track down the xB gas pedal assembly, linkage and tb whip but, as of yet, have been unsuccessful. I might just end up ordering these through my contact at toyota. I have also been in touch with my tuner, and he is expecting me in approx two weeks time to get the cams dyno'd all by themselves. I am also working on getting a spot in the toyota bay this coming weekend so that I can plug me car in to the TSI techstream with the hopes of determining what ECU adjustments are available via the actual toyo channels. At the moment, my car is limping around in stock form as car parts galour adorn my spare room.

And for anyone curious as to what this is involving, and why there is a "donate" link in my sig,

return car to stock (done)
dyno (done)
pull engine
install cams
reinstall engine
dyno
pull engine
install head/pulleys/tb/whatever else I want
Reinstall engine
dyno.

Again, you're welcome. Now donate! :-P

What gains are you expecting to make?

[H3LlIoN]

Alright, just got off the phone with Bill...he was shooting to get mine headed out tomorrow, but he has a tc head on the flowbench atm, and has to finish it before he can put mine back on there to double check it, so he said should go out monday, tues by the latest, and should be in my hands by Fri.


Spectacle...Gude claims 10% gains with head package, IIRC. With supporting mods (full intake/exhaust/pulleys/camcon), I'm hoping to beat the blitz s/c gains which, according to Turbo magazine's tests, hp went from 98 to 119.
Link to Turbo writeup. (http://www.turbomagazine.com/tech/0706_turp_project_toyota_yaris/index.html)


Camell...next post.

[Black Yaris]

Hmm.... wonder if that same 2az head will bolt to my 1az?

other thing I wonder is once a 2az head is fitted, would the tC supercharger mount up?

[H3LlIoN]

Camell...yes. We plugged it in to the computer to see what could be done...it allowed for some basic adjustments of random stuff such as keyless entry and such...it also has tabs for engine stuff, but no access...My official stance after playing around is that the access MIGHT be there, but that it is not accessible at the dealership level. I talked with my tech buddy while I was there, and we agreed that access might be possible with the security "seed," but it is not available at dealership, he has to call toyota. Furthermore, he said that, if he does that, they let him go, and void all the work he's done on anything he may have worked on while employed there. (obviously not an option)

On another side note, there was a new feature available on the techstream that was a recent update...it's a datalogging feature that tracks all engine functions realtime. He had to go out of town, so we're waiting for him to get back before we borrow the computer for the night to log but, as of know, techstream is a no-go unless we can get that security key, which is pretty unlikely. We'll be using the logger both in stock config, and then with the camcon/cams/head/etc...

[H3LlIoN]

Hmm.... wonder if that same 2az head will bolt to my 1az?

other thing I wonder is once a 2az head is fitted, would the tC supercharger mount up?

tc supercharger is centrifugal....should be able to mount on your 1AZ without switching heads. Fitment will be the issue.

[Black Yaris]

Hmmm... I will have to check in to this... I am sure someone has tried to slap a tc supercharger on a 1az before

[Parmas]

Hmm.... wonder if that same 2az head will bolt to my 1az?


Sorry I am confused now... does Gude's Head consist of a 1NZFE head or 2AZ-FE head?

On their describtion Gude mentioned 2 times the 2AZFE and I thought it was a writing mistake..... or not?

Can you please clear my mind H3liton?

[H3LlIoN]

Sorry I am confused now... does Gude's Head consist of a 1NZFE head or 2AZ-FE head?

On their describtion Gude mentioned 2 times the 2AZFE and I thought it was a writing mistake..... or not?

Can you please clear my mind H3liton?


The head that I ordered is the 1nz-fe head for our cars. (Echo/Prius/Yaris/Gen 1 xB)

He ALSO reworks 2AZ heads (tC), as well as heads for honda, vw, other toyo, etc etc...

[Bluevitz-rs]

any updates? did you get it yet?

[H3LlIoN]

Sitting on my porch when I got home....47 day turn around. :-(

http://i45.tinypic.com/14wqceh.jpg

[rob323]

Come on then, stop slacking off, whack it in, dyno that sucker! :biggrin:

[H3LlIoN]

Just texted toyo tech, he is slammed til friday, so I gonna drop it off then and let him do his thing whilst I rock my gas guzzler.

[rob323]

Ok, in the mean time, get a stock head and the new head flow tested and have the cams measured :biggrin: Dispel all myths!

[H3LlIoN]

Haha have a spare head to send me?

[H3LlIoN]

In other words....I need head. :-D

[rob323]

I got 2.
You flow yours and I'll flow mine. :biggrin:

[H3LlIoN]

Alright....let me make some phone calls tomorrow and see what it would run me.

[cdydjded]

Where are you located? Ill find you a place to flow the head....

[H3LlIoN]

Hampton Roads, VA. I'm pretty sure Abacus Performance does it, just have to call and check. What's normal cost for that anyway?

[H3LlIoN]

cdy...any word on flow shop/rough cost?


As to cams...two weeks before I can get her in to the shop. Sry for the bad news gents.

[H3LlIoN]

bleh...$320 to $400 to flow head. I'm not paying for that. I'll just dyno it and be happy, or not.

[cali yaris]

^ supposed to be Gude's job anyway.

[Bluevitz-rs]

^ supposed to be Gude's job anyway.

Ba-dum-che. :bellyroll:

[Jason@SportsCar]

^ supposed to be Gude's job anyway.

We contacted them during our search for head/cam work, I was not impressed. They had no specs, or even basic information - what should be basic if someone was actually doing this work - they had to call me back with the answers. Confidence, zero. They appear to be a middle man for an unknown machine shop.

[H3LlIoN]

Yeah I'm waiting to see numbers to make final judgment, but I'm overall less than pleased at the experience so far. Any time I ask any questions, I get the run around about corporate espionage and such...all the while I'm thinking "dude. you've got $1620 of my money, you better come up with something!" Any way, he seems pretty sure of his product, so I'll wait and see what the numbers come back with.

As of right now, tech guys are telling me there may be some clearance issues putting my cams in the factory head, we'll wait and see what happens though, I'll get some putty and check it out.

Any body have a link for the ARP head stud kit?

[H3LlIoN]

Also not happy with the turnaround time, but again, the whole point was for someone to "be the guinea pig," so whatev.

[rob323]

If the head has been measured, factory cams measured, stock head flowed to see what potential it had and how much work it needed, then every port worked on, then reflowed, ports reworked to equal them up, reflowed again to double check, then grind custom cam to suit, then preassemble to make sure cam doesn't foul on the head etc, I don't think a month is at all unreasonable (unless much shorter promises. were made and broken).

I was once told by a very experience engine head guy, that it takes him about 8 hours per port for 2 valve per cylinder motors and more for 4 valve per cylinder motors.

[H3LlIoN]

Well if he had said "hey listen, it's gonna be a month and a half" I'd be cool with it, but he started telling me @ week three that I "should have it by the end of next week" which kinda' pissed me off.

[Jason@SportsCar]

Yeah I'm waiting to see numbers to make final judgment, but I'm overall less than pleased at the experience so far. Any time I ask any questions, I get the run around about corporate espionage and such...all the while I'm thinking "dude. you've got $1620 of my money, you better come up with something!" Any way, he seems pretty sure of his product, so I'll wait and see what the numbers come back with.

As of right now, tech guys are telling me there may be some clearance issues putting my cams in the factory head, we'll wait and see what happens though, I'll get some putty and check it out.

Any body have a link for the ARP head stud kit?

You have to respect someone trying to protect their investment in the R&D process, and they are certainly within their right to do so. However, I have not talked to one reputably engine builder that would not share all of the data I asked for - this goes for both our current and past projects. Most of these guys are secure enough knowing people come to them because of reputation, and based on that alone they will share - telling someone flow numbers does not tell how you achieved them. :wink:

I think the issue here is caused by the dealer. They likely fear that if anyone knew what machine shop made the parts they would be cut out of the loop.

Hopefully the difficult journey pays off for you.

[cdydjded]

Any body have a link for the ARP head stud kit?

ARP does not have head bolts or head studs for the 1NZ. Use brand new factory bolts & you will not have any issues.....

[H3LlIoN]

ARP does not have head bolts or head studs for the 1NZ. Use brand new factory bolts & you will not have any issues.....

I know Garm & Aras are running head stud kits...who makes 'em? With as often as this engine will be coming apart, I'd rather not fork for new bolts every time I break it down...

[Thirty-Nine]

I really hope for the best!

I know years ago when I was big into Hondas, there had been a lot of mixed results both performance wise and customer service wise with Gude. When I saw their name pop up in the Yaris circle, I was quite surprised.

[cali yaris]

I know Garm & Aras are running head stud kits...who makes 'em?

We got ARP studs for a different car and re-threaded both the block and the head.

There is a thread on MI for aftermarket studs available from a company in Spain.

[H3LlIoN]

ty Garm

[GnomeBody]

Any luck?

[D&D]

<-- subscribed :)

[Bluevitz-rs]

Updates?

[Midnight Drifter]

Well if he had said "hey listen, it's gonna be a month and a half" I'd be cool with it, but he started telling me @ week three that I "should have it by the end of next week" which kinda' pissed me off.

So how's it rockin' now?

[GnomeBody]

I hope that H3LlIoN's lack of updates is because he lost his laptop charger and not because he's been incarcerated for the murder of a certain merchant who didn't ship the parts in a reasonable time like he had promised...

[xbgod]

Hey guys, this is Aras. I'm also in the process of getting a head from Bill. Here are my cam profiles.

420 grind lift
420 duration 238 on intake cam
Exaust cam 400 lift 238 duration

My head is also being O-ringed and i'm using a Cometic copper gasket.

My grind and my head are pretty extreme but I'm using full standalone so my Idle won't be a problem.

Bill has been doing racing heads for 20 years and is also a Aerospace Engineer. He is sometimes difficult to talk to mainly because he has hearing aids from racing for 40 years. Easy guy to talk to other than the hearing loss. His wife Faye runs the books and takes care of all the finances. It's a family run business so things are low key and not so industry standard. So you'll need to be paticent. your not dealing with a corporation this is a private racing company and lets face it, he's the only one doing this work for this head.

My package cost 2150.00 but mine is all out race and the O-ring head cost 400.00 extra. I'm also running a Edlebrock 70mm T/B and not his. As well as I'm running direct port nitrous with a sheet metal intake manifold.

I'll also keep you posted on my progress.

XBG

[cali yaris]

"in the process" means you've ordered it and paid a deposit?

This should be a very nice addition to your build.

[xbgod]

Yes it's been paid. Just a wait and see game now. I will not have mine tuned untill sometime in Nov. I've changed alot of stuff on my car so lots of things going on right now. As well as getting my appointment at CFT and Rolo to tune it; he's always slammed with work so it's my first oportunity to tune.

Two other things on my head that I didn't mention. I'm using Ferrera valves and the cams are 114 on centers.

I've done so much motor upgades, it's gonna be interesting to see the out come.

All I know is that I hope this new turbo / head upgrade pays off.

XBG

[sleey0]

Well, when your neck snaps in half going WOT, due to all your upgrades, that grin you crack will be sooo worth it:D

[xbgod]

Here are some attachments of my engine bay as it stands right now. Pardon the mess but you get the idea. Got stuff coming and going in and out so nothing has been tightened up or wires hidden yet. This is just to give you guys an idea of what I'm doing

XBG

[Parmas]

Nice setup man you should done much custom work on this!

Why don't you begin a thread regarding your setup instead of posting into other's thread?

[xbgod]

Suppose I could. didn't know how much posting I was going to do here but we do have one thing in common with these cars and thats the motor. I'll start a thread on this build and continue with updates on my head as they become available.

I think everyone is courious about how these heads will turn out.

XBG

[sito]

Nice setup, xbgod....:thumbup:

[xbgod]

H3Llion, I see you got your head package. courious how every thing looked to you as you opened it and inspected it. Also did you choose to put the head all back together your self? or just didn't want Bill to do it?

I'm making him assemble mine so I know that all the tolorance's are correct between the cams and the buckets.

I would imagine he preassembled yours to check all that but let me how all your stuff turns out.

XBG

[xbgod]

H3Llion,

Haven't heard from you about your head and cams. I hope your not the one that Bill said took it all apart and can't get it back together with the right specs. Courious to see how your's is doing

XBG

[cali yaris]

^ I have cams coming in now from overseas, after a year's R&D. I'll post up when they come in.

Three set ups will be available: street, N/A tuned and turbo.

[xbgod]

Sounds good. But you try the first set. You will also need springs with those cams. You may try Eibach, I know gude buys them by the 1000 from them.

Or even Ferrea they make sets for these now.

I'm not a big fan of overseas manufacturing,,,,China....ect. So I hope you have a reliable source.

I've out sourced before and should have just kept it in house or bit the bullet and had Brian do it.

XBG

[Nexus1155]

Crower makes some great stuff.

I am a big fan of overseas manufacturing depending on some things. After all everything comes from China anyways! The only thing I hate about it is that it IS killing our manufacturing economy.

Ferrea valves are ridiculously expensive. Really $1000+ for the kit for a 4cylinder. Even if i had the cash, I still wouldn't drop that much. I know the crowd and aftermarket is there, but look at the SR20DET crew, a similar kit goes for like ~$300

[xbgod]

Yeah...Brian Crower...(great friend)

And untill the 1NZ-FE motor picks-up popularity internal parts will be pricy. As a manufacture anything less than a run of 500 is useless and cost prohibited. I would never run some cheap -ass china built crap on a 20K motor.

Ferrea ....expensive...yes, but made and tested here in America,on cmm machines to exacting tollerences. That stuff in China half the time is made friday at five-oclock just before beer-thirty.

Never go cheap on your motor, especially internals....it's the heart of your motor.

XBG

[Nexus1155]

Exactly, it is a waste of time and resources for someone like him. Even if the 1nz-fe is in alot of cars, they're not all tuners and doubtful alot will put headwork into it.

Yes, you are right, I would not try to cheap out, I have seen some terrible crap made in China... terrible, but part of the China hype is to shop around and find someone who does good work. Hard, but doable. We run rods(same weight and spec that we measured and stress tested) in our S4's that atleast 3 legit companies market as "American" made, handle up to 850hp and has been going strong for 5 years so far. This is one of the instance when China is somewhat acceptable.

But I mean at what cost, it took combing through companies and blowing rods out to find out what works best!? Not worth it IMHO on something like that

Simple things like exhaust, is alright. Even if it is sub par metal, it works excellent.

[cali yaris]

Sounds good. But you try the first set. You will also need springs with those cams.

I always do. :wink:

[xbgod]

Keep in mind you will need custom ground buckets and springs for those cams.

the stock springs have about zero tollerence for play room.

Or you could do custom valve lengths and not need the buckets and springs.

Good luck. Keep me posted.

XBG

[H3LlIoN]

H3Llion, I see you got your head package. courious how every thing looked to you as you opened it and inspected it. Also did you choose to put the head all back together your self? or just didn't want Bill to do it?

I'm making him assemble mine so I know that all the tolorance's are correct between the cams and the buckets.

I would imagine he preassembled yours to check all that but let me how all your stuff turns out.

XBG


You'll still have to break it down in order to get it in. The bolts securing the head are directly under the cams. You should know this. As far as clearances, I took the head package to the guy installing it for me who's been working on cars in one capacity or another for about 30 years. He called me a couple days later and said "Holy shit. Whoever did this knew EXACTLY what they were doing."

[Bluevitz-rs]

^ well that's good to hear after dropping over a Gee into a head LOL

[H3LlIoN]

$1620 to be exact, plus whatever the install ends up costing me.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Eeeeeeee http://westsidetoastmasters.com/resources/book_of_body_language/images/153-collar_pull.jpg

HAHAHAHA

[H3LlIoN]

dyno set for monday.

[xbgod]

Well all is well with my set-up. Gude head package for mine is complete and set. O-ringed head was done right cams were ground good and tolorences were exact. My motor is all back together and every custom part fit's like a glove. I'll have new pics soon. I'll post final install of my complete engine bay right after the holiday. I replumbed all my stainless hose to black hose including all nitrous line so my new look is insane. I hit the MD500 on the 29th so well see what she does, with and without the nitrous. My fuel will be 107 octane along with methanol injection. This will be the only way I dyno so I will have no numbers on shit pump gas.Too much invested for shitty fuel and I want the most out of my motor.

I'll update soon wit pics.

XBG

[Midnight Drifter]

You'll still have to break it down in order to get it in. The bolts securing the head are directly under the cams. You should know this. As far as clearances, I took the head package to the guy installing it for me who's been working on cars in one capacity or another for about 30 years. He called me a couple days later and said "Holy shit. Whoever did this knew EXACTLY what they were doing."

Thanks for keeping it real with us, man. This is an investment I'll consider coupling to a Blitz Supercharger down the road. With the right setup, 150WHP shouldn't be a stretch.:headbang:

[H3LlIoN]

I'll be dyno'ing mine on "shit pump gas" so the rest of you have some real numbers to go by. :-P

[Nexus1155]

WHAT, you guys should be testing this on nitromethane. Then we can get some outstanding numbers.

[H3LlIoN]

Aras should...he has the engine management to run it. I, on the other hand, do not. Also, he is a full custom build with pretty much nothing stock.

I am dyno'ing on 93 octane because I committed to being the guinea pig for the gude head/cams for the rest of you guys, and everyone (pretty much) has access to 93 on here. Therefor, if I say I went from a base of 101hp to 112hp with the head/cams/93 octane, you have something more realistic to work with than if I said I was running 107 and put down 120hp.

I thought about it though....will probably run 103 after I get all the supporting parts that are filling my living room installed, but I've been waiting on this dyno to fulfill my commitment.

[xbgod]

Here are some pics of my head work from Gude

XBG

[H3LlIoN]

http://i45.tinypic.com/14wqceh.jpg

[xbgod]

Here are some pics from the Top View

[cdydjded]

WHAT, you guys should be testing this on nitromethane. Then we can get some outstanding numbers.
:laughabove:

[cali yaris]

Tomorrow is a big day, you're both going to the dyno.. CANT WAIT!!

[xnamerxx]

I don't mean to be a dick but those cams look odd like the lobes are cast rather than machined. It might just be the picture but the lobes look like they are cast and rough.

[xbgod]

Their regrinds. All is well with the machining. They do have a molly coat on them.

Yes tommorow, I'm headed to CFT. Got some wiring to do when we first get there but should be on the dyno by mid-week.

Time to see some results.

XBG

[H3LlIoN]

We were testing the car with JUST the head and cams...no other modifications or bolt-ons. Power went from 98.93 to 104.10 (5.2% gain) on stock fuel maps. Torque dropped from 100.55 to 95.33 (5.4% loss). Using the CamCon to tune, we were able to get power to 108.43 (9.6% over stock) and tq to 98.78 (1.8% total loss). Most exciting thing to note is the lack of high rpm drop off associated with stock config. Again, this was on stock airbox/intake and exhaust and a dirty air filter so, while I had hoped to get to 110, I'm curious to see how this does after intake/exhaust, as the head could literally be being choked by stock system. We will see though.

Red - head/cams + camcon
Blue - head/cams on stock maps
Green - original stock baseline

http://i52.tinypic.com/11jahyf.jpg

[Jason@SportsCar]

We were testing the car with JUST the head and cams...no other modifications or bolt-ons. Power went from 98.93 to 104.10 (5.2% gain) on stock fuel maps. Torque dropped from 100.55 to 95.33 (5.4% loss). Using the CamCon to tune, we were able to get power to 108.43 (9.6% over stock) and tq to 98.78 (1.8% total loss). Most exciting thing to note is the lack of high rpm drop off associated with stock config. Again, this was on stock airbox/intake and exhaust and a dirty air filter so, while I had hoped to get to 110, I'm curious to see how this does after intake/exhaust, as the head could literally be being choked by stock system. We will see though.

Red - head/cams + camcon
Blue - head/cams on stock maps
Green - original stock baseline



Its interesting how cams seem lose Tq on this motor. Ours are a more mild grind than yours, SCCA Production class rules limit us to .390 lift and only port matching 1" in, but like you we also lost some bottom end.

Wait till you get real engine management, when you can start to spin it past 6500rpm it will really sing and you will see the payoff. :thumbsup:

[H3LlIoN]

I'm looking forward to it...You really start to feel the cams....and then you crash into the rev limiter. So disappointing. Trying to decide now between being the test dummy for the dezod unit, or just going full standalone and being done with it. What are you running?

[Jason@SportsCar]

I'm looking forward to it...You really start to feel the cams....and then you crash into the rev limiter. So disappointing. Trying to decide now between being the test dummy for the dezod unit, or just going full standalone and being done with it. What are you running?

AEM EMS series 2 with a custom plug and play harness by MP Tuning. The OE computer is still in place to control the DBW, with the AEM running the rest - including the VVTi.:wink:

If we did not have to use the stock TB and manifold (the SCCA Prod rules require the OE setup) I would ditch the stock ECU and use an xB or custom intake setup.

I wonder if you can pair the Dezod unit with the Camcon to essentially get the same control we have? As I understand it the Dezod unit does not offer VVTi control(?) The Camcon is limited to 500rpm steps, but it might make a good budget setup.

[H3LlIoN]

I too was wondering if they could be piggybacked, since you are correct. No vvt-i w/ dezod. Too bad they require the stock tb. Are you allowed to bore it?

[Jason@SportsCar]

Too bad they require the stock tb. Are you allowed to bore it?

No, its 100% stock. That is how they balance a class with 40 year old British cars and new cars. :smile:

[H3LlIoN]

bummer. hope you get your new class soon.

[xbgod]

Well guys the XB is at CFT getting the T/B wired into the Microtech and some other misc. Nitrous wiring done. The car should be ready to tune by end of week.

I know my cams are a little more wilder than yours and will have no way to test mine stock because of my standalone and all my mods but well she what she produces soon.

Keep in mind I did away with the VVTI which is also why my cam grind is full race as well as microtech only allows me to turn on vvti which makes it more like vvt.

I wanted a more race old school set-up. I know I got alot going on under the hood and will not be able to tell you what does the trick but I will assume it's a combination of all my stuff being Big and built strong.

70mm T/B
3" pipe
680cc injectors
big turbo
Crazy cams
Full stand-alone

All I know, is this better do something good.

Will post new complete engine bay pics in an hour or so.

XBG

[Jason@SportsCar]

Well guys the XB is at CFT getting the T/B wired into the Microtech and some other misc. Nitrous wiring done. The car should be ready to tune by end of week.

I know my cams are a little more wilder than yours and will have no way to test mine stock because of my standalone and all my mods but well she what she produces soon.

Keep in mind I did away with the VVTI which is also why my cam grind is full race as well as microtech only allows me to turn on vvti which makes it more like vvt.

I wanted a more race old school set-up. I know I got alot going on under the hood and will not be able to tell you what does the trick but I will assume it's a combination of all my stuff being Big and built strong.

70mm T/B
3" pipe
680cc injectors
big turbo
Crazy cams
Full stand-alone

All I know, is this better do something good.

Will post new complete engine bay pics in an hour or so.

XBG

With a turbo I don't think I would worry about the few trivial HP/TQ lost from not having VVTi. :laugh: :burnrubber:

[xbgod]

I was thinking like you were. Though it will still interesting to see what happens,

XBG

[Jason@SportsCar]

bummer. hope you get your new class soon.

The class change I have been pulling for is for autocrossing, nothing to do with our road race classing. Neither allow a "modern" car to change intake/TB. The current OE stuff is so much better than what cars had even ten years ago that you could not make the cars perform equally. Its one less than to worry $$$$ about.

[xbgod]

Ok here is one pic. go to my engine build under forced induction for the rest.

XBG

[Jason@SportsCar]

Ok here is one pic. go to my engine build under forced induction for the rest.

XBG

Trying to overcompensate a little? Is the NX really necessary with the FI? :laugh:

As long as you are going all out, why don't you ditch that boat anchor of a battery and pop for one of the new Braille lithium-ion units. :thumbsup:

[H3LlIoN]

he's sponsored, by NX amongst others.

[H3LlIoN]

Not as shiny as Aras', but I got the CAI back in, and just got done installing the NST underdrive set. Next is Gude TB, as soon as I get it back from Gude.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2h6vx3m.jpg

[xbgod]

AT least it's a clean set-up.

XBG

[H3LlIoN]

Thanks, but I need a wire tuck like WHOA.

[Parmas]

Keep in mind I did away with the VVTI which is also why my cam grind is full race as well as microtech only allows me to turn on vvti which makes it more like vvt.



Through my experience building my custom setup, the VVTi on our engine is one of the main points that play a good role what power and torque across all rpm range is.

That depends what the owner intend to use the car for . It could run on street or race or both. I chose both and for me the VVti is essentially needed on street where I am not always on the 6k rpm range. With the VVti tuned correctly you get a good power and torque all across the lower and higher rpms (which is nice to see a good feel only at 3K).

In your case, I don't think you care of low/medium rpm ranges since yours is built for race purposes. If I were you, I would lock the cam at a desired angle (depending what the dyno shows you) and eliminate the VVti completely.

[xbgod]

Your thoughts are some what like mine on this. Here is what were doing.

first tune without the vvti on


Second tune with vvti on

third with no vvti and lock the cam angle

of the three we will see which is best.

Gotta see how the Gude cams and new throttle body respond to the motor.

XBG

[Parmas]

Your thoughts are some what like mine on this. Here is what were doing.

1 - first tune without the vvti on

2 - Second tune with vvti on

3 - third with no vvti and lock the cam angle

of the three we will see which is best.

Gotta see how the Gude cams and new throttle body respond to the motor.

XBG

1 - You mean with the Cam timing connector disconnected - which would be fully retarded.

2 - Are you sure your management can fully control VVTi? Do you have pics of the management software part?

3 - Do you mean locking temporarly the angle? By the use of the engine management or by locking it directly from the head?

[H3LlIoN]

I chose both and for me the VVti is essentially needed on street where I am not always on the 6k rpm range.

Haha I hit redline pretty much every time I drive the yaris.

[rob323]

I just wish the F1 technology that Honda had years ago, with solenoid actuated valves would hurry up and become main stream. No cam shafts, just fully adjustable valve timing and lift, perfectly optimised for all loads and all rpms.

[xbgod]

Here is how Microtech works. It will NOT fully control VVTI. You can have it turn on the VVTI at your desired rpm range which makes it more like VVT. At this point you can either just let it turn it on or use the stock ecu to just control the VVTI. However the stock ecu likes to retard timming because it gets confused when running the Microtech at the same time. So I orginally would just activate the VVTI at around 3400 rpm.

Now with this race cam set-up it will be different. depending on how wild of a cam this turns out to be will have a factor on if the VVTI will even operate properly anyways. I'm hoping to just unplug the vvti altogether and just have a old school style race set-up and let the cams do the work.

I will however check the tune with thw VVTI on and see what we get. Worse case we fix the cam angle via the head.

I belive the first idea will work good by doing away with the vvti because of my cam designe. Webb cam does alot of VVTI and VTEC delete kits for racing applications which in there eyes have proven to be more effective for all out racing power.

We will soon find out which is best for me. If I cant find a totally good solution for my set-up then I will be off to purchase Motec and be done with it. For me it will be the only logical solution to what I want to do. I know there expensive but in my eyes and what Chris Rado runs there is no substitute. But I hope for what I want that my first choice works.

XBG

[Parmas]

I am not into Microtech but I happen to have experienced similar engine management previousely that only is capable to activate a valve and not constantly vary angles. I am about sure to fully control the VVTi you need to change management.

In my opinion with your cam setup you will surely have nice power and torque on the upper curves ( probably above 6K depending how wild it is). But this would cost you power and torque performance at low and medium rpms. Also you should know that with these cams, there is a possiblity of a rough with rich mixture which result into an unsteady idle especially if you lock cam angle.

[H3LlIoN]

Also you should know that with these cams, there is a possiblity of a rough with rich mixture which result into an unsteady idle.

I'm pretty sure "rough@idle" is synonymous with aftermarket cams, ESPECIALLY with the friggin' profile Aras is running. He's gonna need SRB's to get that thing going! :tongue:



BTW...got these today. :biggrin:

http://i52.tinypic.com/29vjrwm.jpg

[Blown_xa]

I can tell you what messing with the vvti will do:

left on the car will lose power when boost hits, it may even fall on its face at high rpm. Spool up and bottem rpm range power will be good.
left off you will make as much power as your setup can make (assuming mbt) , but you will lack slight torque under normal driving conditions. In reality thats not gonna matter because you will be able to light up 1st thru 3rd easy regardless.
When we tune vvti via Haltec on our tC or my car, we find it so far to be time better spent elsewhere .
My advice for xbgod, focus on the basics at hand. 30psi tune, dont start tuning with a 8psi wastegate spring (boost controller maxed wont get u to goal). stuff like that. maybe have ur microtec control silinoid to get better spool and boost curve. greddy controller has gain control but still not as nice inputing duty cycle per rpm. that will make more difference than vvti.

[cali yaris]

I use the M400 on my tC, it's an awesome management unit.

[ilikerice]

all this talk about vvti is making me think that its a P.O.S. for performance and only good for gas savings (of course thats what the yaris is all about)... having doubts about the upgrades i decided to go with now and thinking i should stop with the yaris and see what else is out there to start a new project on... someone give me a reason to throw a kaaz lsd and supercharger/turbo on this car... cuz this talk about tuning the vvti is really throwing me back.. vtec on the crx is so much more simple.

[H3LlIoN]

ignore this talk. what these two are talking about only pertains to about 4 users here. you should pay it no heed.


and EVERY 17 year old kid in the world has a diced out civic...how many people u know with hopped up yarii? makes a much better sleeper, and the "wtf??!?!?" looks are priceless.

[xbgod]

H3lion is right there are a select few of us that are way on the extreme side of the house with our projects. And some of the stuff we discuss pertains primarily to us, so unless you plan on going way into the deep end like we have just use some of this information as food for thought.

Our vehicles are not daily drivers and we use them as race primarily. Any questions you may have related to performance please ask and one of us will help you with your situation and demands you have for your car.

XBG

[Focus_Sh1ft]

H3lion is right there are a select few of us that are way on the extreme side of the house with our projects. And some of the stuff we discuss pertains primarily to us, so unless you plan on going way into the deep end like we have just use some of this information as food for thought.

Our vehicles are not daily drivers and we use them as race primarily. Any questions you may have related to performance please ask and one of us will help you with your situation and demands you have for your car.

XBG

Agreed. ilikerice, there's no need to be concerned with cams/vvti unless you're going for a big build. I can tell you firsthand though a turbocharged yaris for daily driving is sex :biggrin:


and EVERY 17 year old kid in the world has a diced out civic...how many people u know with hopped up yarii? makes a much better sleeper, and the "wtf??!?!?" looks are priceless.

Agreed even more. Anyone who mods cars/ understands the process has given me great respect. Toyota techs have been stupified after looking at my car.

[cali yaris]

cuz this talk about tuning the vvti is really throwing me back.. vtec on the crx is so much more simple.

go Honda!

[xnamerxx]

all this talk about vvti is making me think that its a P.O.S. for performance and only good for gas savings (of course thats what the yaris is all about)... having doubts about the upgrades i decided to go with now and thinking i should stop with the yaris and see what else is out there to start a new project on... someone give me a reason to throw a kaaz lsd and supercharger/turbo on this car... cuz this talk about tuning the vvti is really throwing me back.. vtec on the crx is so much more simple.


VVT-I is amazing for what it was designed for. You get all the benefits of low rpm torque with high rpm power, before the days of variable valve timing you had to choose one or the other.

The vvti in this car is vary similar to the vtec-i the k series motors from honda have. The problem with vvti in this car is the cam profiles are tuned for a naturally aspirated motor and at higher rpm the vvti is programmed to act has a bigger na cam and increase the lobe overlap for scavenging the exhaust to increase power in the higher rpm band, but doing so would cause you to lose boost in the higher rpm range and kill the power a bit. Forced induction cars dont like to have overlap as it decreases volumetric efficiency because its basically a vacuum leak within the cylinder itself which will drop down the boost #.

The vtec in a crx is a very simple system its advances and retards the intake cam iirc which can provide some benefit but is more effective for fuel economy.

If you want to boost the yaris go ahead and do so the vvti wont have as large of an effect as it will on their cars. Remember when there talking about making 30 psi they engines are making 3-4x times more power then yours and vvti "may" cause a 3-10% drop in power/torque when boosted and making 150-180 hp wont matter so much because it wont be noticed but when your engine is making 300-400 and only has a smaller band of power that hit in power is much more noticable. Dont listen to their talk about vvti as it doesnt pertain to you.
Its like listening to engine tech from a f1 car while its correct it doesn't pertain to your application since you aren't going to be running as much power

[xbgod]

Blownxa

Working on some tunning tips like we discussed. Rolo my tunner at CFT is familliar with your situation and is doing some of the exact same things for tunning my car. I sent you a PM, give me a ring got something to discuss with you.

Aras

[advocate]

and the "wtf??!?!?" looks are priceless.

QFT

[Bluevitz-rs]

I never thought about unplugging my VVTi solenoid when I was boosted to see if it would have fixed my high RPM power problem. It was such a simple thing I overlooked. As the RPMs raised, the overlap got bigger and my boosted power dropped off. Makes me think if I was simply loosing fuel and some boost out the exhaust.

Because I know for a fact that running the car without the VVTi plugged in, in NA form makes for a more linear power delivery, and a lot more consistent.

[ilikerice]

thanks for the advice guys and i do understand they are probably going way far and beyond what ill ever achieve with a yaris. its my first time actually disecting vvt.. i know how they work and have always understood how to repair them and diagnosis the problems with them, but i never tried to manipulate them before like you guys are doing. i have never worked for honda or acura but i have been a crx lover since i was 15 and its been my car for the past decade now and i know vtec heads inside and out.

bottom line. im trying to read all this info you guys are saying and getting myself prepared if the day ever comes that i throw my engine management and start playing with vvti. in the honda world, cams make a HUGE difference in performance.. but from what i have read, cams are more of a headache then anything..

[xbgod]

Here...........hook one of these up to the head!!!!!!!

Extremely modified Weapon-R sheet metal intake manifold with a 70mm Edlebrock Victor-X T/B and direct-port NX kit.

[Parmas]

Or else put a 2ZZ intake with 70mm t/b :)

[sito]

Or else put a 2ZZ intake with 70mm t/b :)

Parmas, does the 2ZZ intake manifold fits 1NZ-FE engine?
Need some modifications right?

Thanks!!! :biggrin:

[Parmas]

Parmas, does the 2ZZ intake manifold fits 1NZ-FE engine?
Need some modifications right?

Thanks!!! :biggrin:

It not plug and play for sure. You need to re do the intake flange and match the mounting screws and you're done!

I will try to begin to fit it next week according to the man in charge!

[H3LlIoN]

FYI that's for overseas yarii only. USDM are DBW.

edit: I guess you can just get the usdm dbw 1zz setup...lol

[heeroyuy01195]

I don't mean to bring back an old thread but did you manage to figure out your EMS situation?