Ethanol - 15-20%?

[bronsin]

Our government is about to raise ethanol in gasoline from 10 to as much as 20% according to the NY Times today. Automakers are claiming as many as 50% of the cars they have tested with the new higher ethanol content have engine dammage. We need to keep informed on this!

[RedRide]

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

[swidd]

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

[127.0.0.1]

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!


civilization itself, as we know it, could not exist w/o oil.

deal with the fact that the whole industrialized world needs oil.

[Yaris Hilton]

That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris.

A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.

[ddongbap]

Don't they make racing fuel out of ethanol?

[djct_watt]

THe Yarii in Thailand are certified to run up to E20 (20% ethanol). I dunno if we have special modification to support it, but the main concerns are ECU fuel mixture ratios, and MAINLY gaskets, hoses, and seals, since high concentrations of ethanol can eat through those kinds of things.

Given that you still ahve a choice, you have to calculate the worst case loss in efficiency vs the cost benefit. In thailand, we have a choice between straight RON 91, 93, E10, E20, and sometimes E85 (which the Yaris cannot run, here, anyway). With an average of about a 6% reduction in price, I lose fuel efficiency of about 2-3%, which means I net a benefit of about 3-4%. Not much. . .

Been running E20 since I bought the car about 6 months ago without any issues whatsoever, besides slightly reduced range and power.

GREAT LINK for more info:
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmgmt/ACEFuelEconomyStudy_001.pdf

[djct_watt]

PS the E20 certification only came as of the latest model year (2010). Previous Yarii were "not recommended." Whether that means it's safe or not to run it, I wouldn't know.

[STC]

I run RBOB Gas... no Ethanol, ETBE or MTBE additive. :biggrin: I will be using it as long as I can until Ethanol becomes mandatory here in Central PA. Presently, there are only three gas stations left in my neck of the woods. :frown:

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RBOB

[markitect]

15% is pretty common around here and I haven't had any problems.

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

[STC]

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

This is a common misnomer. Ethanol is actually less corrosive than gasoline. Due to its chemical chain, it has the propensity for water condensation. Water condensation on fuel lines, fixtures, and tank components is the problem... especially older cars and carburetor engines... :smile:

[bronsin]

Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

[swidd]

So Ethanol is Obama's fault now?

[Yaris Hilton]

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

[Zaphod]

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

Same here

[bronsin]

Yes biofuels are raising the cost of food. They say poor people around the world, who live on slimmer margines than we do, are being affected. If Obama doesnt stop it, who will?

[why?]

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

this will hurt big oil, and everyone else. For heaven's sake didn't anyone learn anything when we went to 10% and saw all the food problems?

Going to 20% will make gas even more expensive, and even less energy dense. Meaning you will get worse gas mileage.

[Yaris Hilton]

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

[Zaphod]

I'm just looking for the day that algae grown bio-fuels become economically feasible.

Eventually the cost of oil will make everything competitive as demand increases.

[Yaris Hilton]

Yes, price drives competition.

[127.0.0.1]

I'm just looking for the day that algae grown bio-fuels become economically feasible.

Eventually the cost of oil will make everything competitive as demand increases.

never will happen. requires too much surface area and time.


technology will solve the problem another way

[STC]

Not to play any political sides, Toyota Yaris car thread here... :smile:

But, this is the classic false left/right paradigm. They (US Presidents) are all the same. The problem is a crony corporatocracy... the symbiotic relationship between corporations and government. Our elected officials working with corporations in subsidizing corn to profit for big oil business and the government plutocracy while claiming ‘green’ and ‘eco-environmental’ safety to the masses. Sometimes it seems closer to a Kleptocracy... :wink:

It’s all a big lie. Presidents are only a ‘spokesman’ by design.

Cheers...

[RedRide]

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

Exactly!:smile:

I grow weary hearing some mebers of congress crying that the federal government wont do this or that or inact this or that law.
They are the federal goverment!
It's like someone complaining that they are barefoot when they refuse to put on their own shoos.

[Hershey]

wouldn't a 15 > 20 % ethanol mix make for poorer mileage ? Especially in the winter . Wonder if there'd be an addtional loss of 2 > 4 miles to the gallon . How's that going to help the pockets of consumers . It's a no win situation . Darned if you do , damned if yeh don't .

[127.0.0.1]

wouldn't a 15 > 20 % ethanol mix make for poorer mileage ? Especially in the winter . Wonder if there'd be an addtional loss of 2 > 4 miles to the gallon . How's that going to help the pockets of consumers . It's a no win situation . Darned if you do , damned if yeh don't .

a lot poorer mileage

but the US corn producers will make mo' money.

[djct_watt]

Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

I'm not sure if removing the ethanol will boost mpg, but it would destroy your engine with engine knock/ping. The ethanol is there to control the octane of your fuel. I know you were joking, but if you were really to remove the ethanol, you would need to add some sort of oxidizer to replace it.

Here's some more info about ethanol vs MTBE as an oxidizer
http://www.seco.cpa.state.tx.us/re_ethanol_mtbe.htm

[Zaphod]

never will happen. requires too much surface area and time.


technology will solve the problem another way

Wait until oil demand reaches it's peak in China alone.

[Yaris Hilton]

Ethanol in gasoline both reduces miles per gallon, because it contains less energy per gallon than gasoline, AND raises octane. By the cockamamie system we use in the U.S. to post octane numbers on the gas pump, (Research Octane Number + Motor Octane Number)/2, blending 10% ethanol by volume raises the octane number by approximately 2-3 over the base gasoline's value. Not a huge boost, but noticeable.

In many other countries the Research Octane Number is posted. That's obtained in a special variable compression low speed engine breathing cool air. The Motor Octane Number is measured using a higher intake air and coolant temperature, with the engine running at a higher speed, and is more representative of conditions in a car engine. It's a good bit lower than the Research Octane Number, and the spread between them is a rather variable number called the fuel's "sensitivity."

[UTVitz]

Mechanics in my area say there really is no problem with using the current mix of ethanol which is up to 10%. So far, only Chevron is adding it and have placed a sticker on their pumps indicating such. Phillips/Conoco told me they have no current plans to add this to their fuel. So I'm still not sure if this will be federally mandated at some point or not. All I know is I am currently going to only Phillips to get a top tier fuel. I had a terribly destructive experience with MTBE many years ago, which Chevron only paid for the repairs after the Toyota dealer said we've got the fuel out of the vehicle and it's the cause of all the fuel system damage. Finger crossed ethanol stays out of our fuel for the most part

[talnlnky]

That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris.

A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.
I remember reading that one too.

[talnlnky]

Mechanics in my area say there really is no problem with using the current mix of ethanol which is up to 10%. So far, only Chevron is adding it and have placed a sticker on their pumps indicating such. Phillips/Conoco told me they have no current plans to add this to their fuel. So I'm still not sure if this will be federally mandated at some point or not. All I know is I am currently going to only Phillips to get a top tier fuel. I had a terribly destructive experience with MTBE many years ago, which Chevron only paid for the repairs after the Toyota dealer said we've got the fuel out of the vehicle and it's the cause of all the fuel system damage. Finger crossed ethanol stays out of our fuel for the most part

E10 additive is state mandated in oregon.... been living here for 2 years... no problems, and I occasionally got 10% when I live in WA... so.. i'd guess that 80-90% of my tanks of gas over the past 2.5years have been with E10. No issues, Things may be much different than they were when you had your bad experience. I run Chevron or Shell about 95% of the time, so I don't think its a Chevron problem either.

One thing I noticed... Before Oregon did E10, they had much higher gas prices than Washington. After E10.... they have similar, or cheaper prices (despite the fact they have to pay a person to pump gas for the customer...its a law). Eth content seems to drop the cost, and I suspect the drop in cost might actually be bigger than the drop in performance in real world results.

[Hershey]

Wait until oil demand reaches it's peak in China alone. large vehicles are a hot commodity in CHINA . More need for roads . The race is on .

[Split]

the only problem i see for ethanol is tuner guys with injector duty cycles that are already maxed out.. a WRX guys for example with a cobb tune are already nearing 100% duty cycle with their injectors.. now having to inject another 5% more to run E20 might mean you could lean out or the injectors could fail.

[devinlamothe]

You can't really find 10% around here any more, it's all 15% or higher. If the station has a higher price you can usually find 10%, though.

[bronsin]

Sudbury....I went through there on my motorcycle 10 years ago. I noticed distorted rocks on a cliff and found out later you were hit by a giant meteor eons ago.

[devinlamothe]

Sudbury....I went through there on my motorcycle 10 years ago. I noticed distorted rocks on a cliff and found out later you were hit by a giant meteor eons ago.

That is correct, our entire city is in a giant meteor crater. :)

[41magmag41]

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

Problem is Obama thinks he can do anything and the congress rubber stamps it. He's a dyed in the wool Socialist and is taking us in that direction. Democracy is dying with thunderous applause for the sake of change. I hope the PEOPLE wake up and see that the consitution is going down the tubes.

[slothman86]

I usually see up to 10% ethanol on the shell station I go to...well I only use shell, but anyway, I usually see the 10%... Last winter during I bought gas from a Shell station with a sign that said NO ETHANOL...

Now I dunno if they were bullshitting me or what but I did get even better mileage, If I recall correctly, it was 40+ and it was the best tank I had during the trip.

[RedRide]

Did you hear that Obama is also a space alien and hates all earth people?

He also has a "secrete plan" to take all the gas that will be saved by adding more ethanol to it and ship it to the planet "Bama"!

[Hershey]

that's a big f*cking deal . :biggrin:

[jonconell]

yes that's right 20% will increase the cost of living in general

[bronsin]

Id be worried it will cause problems in our 2006-09 Yari not designed for it.

[why?]

it won't cause engine problems necessarily, but ethanol seems to wear out the rubber parts of the fuel system faster. And of course less gas mileage.

[bronsin]

Right. And we'll be the experimented upon.

[hwybox]

I've always run E10 ethanol in both my 06 xB and my 01 malibu. I like to support local farmers (some of my family) but I've just switched to regular 87 because I get better gas mileage. 2-3% is what I've heard and I believe it. E10 runs a little hot and burns off faster, also gives the car a little more pep. I've kinda become a Hypermile driver, because of FUELLY.COM

[hwybox]

Also ethanol does not always blend well with gasoline, you can buy E10 and end up with 50-80% ethanol. This happens in the winter months more, I've had problems with my exhaust on my malibu because of this, I think. Cat converter and O2 sensors going out. Malibu has 143k miles and xB has 36k miles, I use ethanol (E10)98% of the time, up until this this last week.

[Eli Lilly]

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.


Not big oil... big farming... like Archer Daniels Midland, National Corn Growers Association, American Farm Bureau.

-E

[Yules]

I run my 2006 1.0 Yaris on E85 and it runs fine. I've installed an ethanol conversion kit.

Yes, I have 25% worse consumption.
I have almost the same power. On low RPM, I get a higher torque. On higher RPMs, offcourse its weaker.
Cold starts are not an issue, but its summer. I've installed it 2 months ago.
With the less price of E85, I will get my money back for the conversion in one year.

[Gr8ful_Ken]

Not big oil... big farming... like Archer Daniels Midland, National Corn Growers Association, American Farm Bureau.

-E

Right on. Also corn farming is heavily subsidised and big agribusiness wants more and more profit form the cheap corn they buy.

Also the Food, Conservation, and Energy Act of 2008, passed before Obama (and a democrat majority in congress) was elected, provided for increased production of ethanol.