Yaris Sedan Discontinued?

[green-phoenix]

UPDATE: It's been confirmed by another dealer now that had tried to get order info for us. Not publicly announced, but it does appear the Yaris Sedan ends in 2010.

Edmunds has a stub article (http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yarishybrid/2011/featuresandspecs.html) up saying it's in the process of reviewing the "2011 Toyota Yaris Hybrid Sedan." Perhaps the Sedan will only be available in the hybrid now and that is the change? A Treehugger update (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/toyota-yaris-based-hybrid-not-yet-autocar.php) suggests it's coming but may be branded as something other than Yaris.

If anyone else wants to try to confirm that info either way I'm happy to update the OP with what you find out. And yes I've seen the tentative dealer reference sheets for May, and they would have been printed before this supposed "meeting" we were told happened a week or two ago.
--------------------------
We're looking to buy a 2010 Yaris Sedan, but our local dealer just told us it's being discontinued, and we can't order one with the features we want. I've not seen that anywhere else on the net. Can anyone confirm that?
thanks

[SLIK4]

i have a feeling they are full of bs. as far as i know the sedan is still selling extremely well. there is no need to discontinue it

[Black Yaris]

they are wrong, here is a screen shot I just took on Toyota.com
http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j111/jthomas43613/yar-2.jpg

[SLIK4]

Yeah!! Sedan FTW! :headbang:

[Black Yaris]

Why would anyone want a sedan anyway.... Trunks are ugly, hatches are where it's at

[auxmike]

Mabye there's no 2011's ?
Get the 5D hatch, much coolness....

[LEGATO``]

SEDANS FTW!

But uhm, hmm it just might be that that specific dealership will no longer be receiving any more sedans.
I believe it's similar to one of the more popular Toyota dealerships here in my area who said that their Scion TC's have been discontinued, but turned around and meant that their shipment of TC's are at a stop for the season.

[detroiter]

It's probably the dealer trying to bullship you because they have an overabundance of hatchbacks they are trying to get rid of.

[Yaris Hilton]

Yep, just somebody trying to sell you what he's got too many of on hand.

[yarrr]

We're looking to buy a 2010 Yaris Sedan, but our local dealer just told us it's being discontinued, and we can't order one with the features we want.

I've heard the "S package" for the sedan is being discontinued..

[fnkngrv]

I've heard the "S package" for the sedan is being discontinued..

That would be mind numbingly stupid. I love the sedan, but IMHO it doesn't look right without at least some lip kit. and Spoiler.

[Hershey]

smells of :bs: . You'd think TOYOTA would want to keep the sedan to compete with the FORD Fiesta sedan . We have a sedan and like it for its surprisingly big , ugly :moon: .

[JumpmanYaris]

SEDAN FTMFW

[CTScott]

+1 on it being bogus. In June 2008, I was trying to get a dealer to take my order for an 09 5 door. Of the 6 dealers that I spoke to, only 2 did not tell me that there would not be a 5 door model in the US for 09. Here's the 2011 Yaris models:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=33802&d=1273863311

[slothman86]

Come on dealers really don't know half as much as they should. Every time I go to the one closest to me (cheapest oil changes around) I ask about the IQ or the FT 86, and They have NO clue what I'm talking about. None.

[green-phoenix]

Thanks for the confirm. I was pretty sure it was BS, but I figured you all would know regardless. As far as I know for the sedan, the S series itself is no longer available, but you can get the Sport Package which is basically the same thing, even has the "S" emblem added. But neither the Sport Package or alloy wheels are available from all dealers; they're mainly only sold in the warmer/gulf state regions. It's the sedan with sports package that we wanted, but keep getting run around about it. I love Toyota, and we're a guaranteed sale, so it REALLY should not be this hard to just get the car. I guess I'll start calling other dealers tomorrow.

[90tsi]

seems most salesman just read that pamplet in the show room and think they know all there is to know. when i bought mine i was stuck in sales floor for 3hrs looking over owners manuel cuz it was some "policy" required to do. fed me some line about in order for them to complete the sale they had to sign off saying that all points in the book was reviewed and explained.. really over board and stupid IMO

[jambo101]

Why would anyone want a sedan anyway.... Trunks are ugly, hatches are where it's at

Sedan looks like a real car while those hatches look like a morbidly obese Smart car:biggrin:
As for the OP's dealer? tell him if he cant supply me with a sedan the Hyundai dealership down the road will.

[b_hickman11]

We're looking to buy a 2010 Yaris Sedan, but our local dealer just told us it's being discontinued, and we can't order one with the features we want. I've not seen that anywhere else on the net. Can anyone confirm that?
thanks

Maybe they meant that Toyota is not building anymore 2010's and they are starting production on the 2011's. I think someone on here mention there is suppose to be a body makeover for the 2011 so maybe they stopped making 2010's a little early to have time to switch over their production line.

[WeeYari]

Maybe they meant that Toyota is not building anymore 2010's and they are starting production on the 2011's. I think someone on here mention there is suppose to be a body makeover for the 2011 so maybe they stopped making 2010's a little early to have time to switch over their production line.

+1

Either a misinterpretation, or a miscommunication by either the salesman or the OP.

[green-phoenix]

+1
Either a misinterpretation, or a miscommunication by either the salesman or the OP.

Heh, well this is a quote from what he last emailed to us:

"I know you would like to order one, but I talked to [the sales manager] and they are discontinuing the 4 door sedan and we can no longer order them. They are only going to be manufacturing the hatchback models."

The next-closest dealership I just called said ordering one was np, of course.

[Hershey]

there's a $1,000 CASH BACK or 0% from TOYOTA in your state . Looks like TOYOTA of DES MOINES has 18 sedans . The phone is 1-800-779-6576 . They have a BLUE STREAK sedan . Very sharp . Similar to the BLAZING BLUE for the liftbacks .

[Hershey]

from what I can tell , that dealership is pulling a fast one on you . Want you to buy what's on their lot . Look elsewhere . There's plenty of sedans in your region . Go to www.toyota.com . and put in your ZIP CODE where FIND DEALS NEAR YOU . Good Luck .

[roxy1]

when i decided i really needed a sedan i didnt even consider the yaris sedan, as i could get a corolla for too close to the same price. i get on average 1.5 miles per gallon less than i did with my yaris hatch, so i lost almost nothing there but gained a quieter, smoother ride, an interior that is not so depressingly boring, and manual shifting that is infinitely smoother than in the yaris.

at least if toyota is going to keep the yaris sedan, they should change the name. when i think yaris, i think unique looking little hatchback. maybe they could just rekindle the tercel name for the sedan.

[Yaris Hilton]

It would be nice if they acknowledged the sedan and hatchback are completely different cars, but in America there are big cost savings accruing from keeping them under one nametag.

[kimona]

It would be nice if they acknowledged the sedan and hatchback are completely different cars...

Agreed.

[Kal-El]

Of course the sedan isn't discontinued. That would be ridiculous. The sedan sells just as much, if not more, than the liftback.


It would be nice if they acknowledged the sedan and hatchback are completely different cars, but in America there are big cost savings accruing from keeping them under one nametag.


We all wish that Toyota marketed them as two nameplates. Funny how North America is the only market (I believe) where they wear the same name. For the sedan, I prefer the name "Vios".

As you said, cost is the big issue. Marketing a model comes with enormous costs and sharing names is a big advantage in marketing. I guess in other markets where small cars sell in much greater numbers, the differentiation is worth it.

I don't like having to say "Yaris Sedan" so that people don't assume I'm driving a liftback - nothing wrong with that, but I just want to be clear in my description. They are indeed two very different cars even with differently designed interiors.

[Yaris Hilton]

I like the name Vios better than either Yaris or Belta.

[green-phoenix]

Ok, we've talked with a half dozen dealers in the state now, and while the majority of the sales people have all agreed ordering is np and have been much more supportive than the local dealer, the moment we dug deeper with another dealership the sales guy there got back to us and said actually he was mistaken. There was a regional meeting last week where the district managers were informed the Yaris sedan for the US will be ending in 2010 with only the hatchback available in 2011. It sounds like it's not publicly announced yet, and even most dealership employees don't know, but the sedan is discontinued for real. Perhaps they will be coming out with a new economy sedan to fill that slot with a standalone model name, but that's all I know about it.

Oh and we're picking up our new 2010 Yaris sedan Monday from a different-and-more-helpful dealership. Very nice features for off the lot, and they gave us an exceptional deal, lower than our asking price. Definitely best to shop around for a good dealership.

[bst82551]

I won't believe it until I see an official announcement from Toyota. There's no way!

[Yaris Hilton]

It has seemed to me that the Yaris sedan and Corolla are aimed at pretty nearly the same niche.

[kimona]

It has seemed to me that the Yaris sedan and Corolla are aimed at pretty nearly the same niche.

Agreed... and there isn't a significant price difference once you add options to the Yaris sedan.

[djct_watt]

There are soooooooo many threads about these ridiculous claims people are hearing from dealers. Not to flame, but don't people realize that most car dealers are scum? ESPECIALLY Toyota dealers. Just think about it, if the cars sell themselves, it's not going to do much for salesmanship. Walk into ANY GM, Ford, Hyundai, or Nissan dealer and you'll see miles better customer service. Unfortunately, I like Toyota cars so it means I have to deal with the dealers. When I was in the USA (where I spent most of my life), I almost didn't buy a Toyota just because it meant I had to walk into a Toyota dealership (helped friends and family through 12 different purchases, and each case was pure hell).

Some examples of lies I've heard:
1. The Toyota Celica GT (not the high spec GT-S) has a top speed of 150MPH (it's the top indicated on the speedo, lol)
2. The new Supra will be here next year (heard it in 2004, 2006, 2007, and 2009)
3. The Scion tC is rear wheel drive and can drift
4. There is no difference in the chassis between Lexus GS300 and a Toyota Camry
5. The FT-86 will be a Scion
6. The car comes with three free oil changes, yes. But because we only give you 5W-30 and your car requires 5W-20, we have to charge you $26 for the oil. (that was Longo Toyota, but I blasted them on every forum and event, and had the service manager call to apologize and give me tons of free stuff)
7. Toyota oil filters will not work on a Lexus.
8. It's common for the alignment of new cars to be off and it's not covered by warranty (bringing it back after about 100 miles).
9. The Pontiac Vibe has nothing to do with the Matrix.
10. The E-shift feature is no different than the SMG's on Ferrari's, BMW's, etc.

[green-phoenix]

Not to flame, but don't people realize that most car dealers are scum? ESPECIALLY Toyota dealers. Just think about it, if the cars sell themselves, it's not going to do much for salesmanship. Walk into ANY GM, Ford, Hyundai, or Nissan dealer and you'll see miles better customer service. Unfortunately, I like Toyota cars so it means I have to deal with the dealers.

Clearly you've had some bad experiences with Toyota dealers. My experiences over the last 20 years with dozens of dealerships across three states has been the exact opposite. The American companies seem to be the most shady to me, and Japanese are consistently the best. Sure there are bad dealerships; that's why you visit others and get second opinions. This problem I had last week was enough I hit the other dealer within the immediate 50-mile radius, and I called three more. Only the bad local one had problems answering package questions. The rest were also consistent with the same answers that match online info.

The one thing that was different from online data is the "sedan is discontinued" issue. And the dealer that just confirmed that had no incentive to lie to us about it. We'd decided we didn't want to wait the weeks to order one and were already talking price on a sedan they had on their lot. It was at the end of our dealing, after doing an agreement, that the salesman found out he had been wrong, there was indeed a regional meeting about it, and the sedan was not going to be available anymore. He was letting us know what he just found out, and it wasn't going to effect anything with the sale. The only way it's not discontinued US-wide is that it was a regional decision and the entire Midwest will no longer offer Yaris Sedans. I don't see how Toyota would allow that inconsistency; it's easier to believe they have other plans for an economy sedan.

And actually for those talking about Yaris vs. Corolla, while the Corolla has more options, wider availability, more room, etc., the Corolla is not outright "better." We did test drives with three different Yaris sedans and three different Corolla sedans, all different trim levels. In every case the Yaris engine was quieter, has less road noise, and provided a smoother ride. I really did not expect that, but it drives better. Yes if you go sport package on the Yaris it's pretty close in price to the Corolla sport, but if you keep it simple the Yaris is thousands cheaper with similar features and a better ride. I don't think the Corolla can just step into the economy sedan slot and expect to replace the Yaris that easily.

[Hershey]

G.P. which dealer you go with ? Hopefully I'm not being too nosey .

[djct_watt]

Region discontiniuation is plausable, although odd. I know when i was in sales (it) managers encouraged lying to move units with higher margins or high inventory, and there was even a financial
Incentive to do so. So keep in mind it's still possible for him to have a motive to lie. And I'll admit its possible he was speaking the truth.

Ps, i've dealt with 3 toyota dealers in tje sacramento area, 5 in the S.F. Bay Area, and 6 in Los Angeles. I remember each and every encounter...

[green-phoenix]

G.P. which dealer you go with ? Hopefully I'm not being too nosey .

Nope, doesn't bother me if you want to know. I didn't post it before just because it wasn't really on-topic. We went with Toyota of Iowa City. We bought our last Camry from the Cedar Rapids dealership, which I can't recommend. There's a long story in that, but the short of it is the Cedar Rapids dealership just has problems and we should have just ignored them for the Yaris from the start.

Also update on the discontinued sedan thing. Edmunds has a stub article (http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yarishybrid/2011/featuresandspecs.html) up saying it's in the process of reviewing the "2011 Toyota Yaris Hybrid Sedan." Perhaps the Sedan will only be available in the hybrid now and that is the change.

Treehugger has an update to the Yaris Hybrid posts (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/toyota-yaris-based-hybrid-not-yet-autocar.php) that speculates: "The story from Asahi/Reuters mentioned that the Yaris-based hybrid would use the "platform and engine" of the Yaris, but it didn't say specifically that it would be a Yaris per se. Now that automakers know that dedicated hybrids sell better than hybrid versions of regular cars (Civic hybrid vs. Prius), it wouldn't be surprising if when Toyota decides to make a hybrid Yaris it changed the appearance of the vehicle and branded it as a different model."

It may be the different trim levels are just too confusing for buyers. So "Yaris" becomes the name of the liftback model only for the same reason they come out with a Yaris-based new hybrid that's branded with a different name.

[landrym28]

It has seemed to me that the Yaris sedan and Corolla are aimed at pretty nearly the same niche.

+1. The Yaris LB is a unique car, and there's nothing in the toyota line of cars that is similar to the LB. The sedan, however, I could understand them thinking of discontinuing it, especially if, when push comes to shove, cost wise, it would make more sense to drive the Corolla.

If course, I'll believe it when I read it from Toyota themselves.

[Thirty-Nine]

I see more sedans than I do liftbacks. And, frankly, I think the current Yaris sedan is less plasticy than the current Corolla.

[Twistoffate0817]

When I was car shopping for my Yaris, I was told that the hatchbacks were no longer being ordered by that specific dealership. So that is how I ended up with a 2009 model hatch.

[Kal-El]

It has seemed to me that the Yaris sedan and Corolla are aimed at pretty nearly the same niche.

I have to disagree.

On average, the Corolla costs thousands more the the Yaris sedan. Sure a loaded Yaris can get up there but then again a loaded Corolla can go over $20K.

Never mind the significant size difference. The Corolla is a good amount bigger than the last generation Corolla that was more on par with Yaris's size. If people are cross shopping Corolla and Yaris, then there are those cross shopping the Corolla and Camry as well.

Realistically, they are all very different segments and for Toyota to drop the hot sub-compact sedan segment would be a massive mistake.

Will Toyota market 2 names going forward and separate the sedan and hatch? Perhaps, but there's no way in hell that Toyota will stop selling a sub-compact sedan.

[Hershey]

we chose both the YARII over the '08 and '09 COROLLA due to less rattles ( new cars ) , better ride , and less expensive ( rebates , dealer discount , less sticker price ) .

[Yaris Hilton]

Basically we got into Yaris sedans because they were the successor to the Echo, which was a very nice little car.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

I hope they just drop the Yaris name in the sedan and rename it Vios. Places I'm at, I see slightly more LB's than I do sedans, probably out of 10 "Yarii" I see, 6-7 are LBs. Also, size wise between the Corolla and the Vios, not much. The Corolla has a bigger trunk, same size rear seating (imo), and slightly more leg space in the front seats (I went with my bro to test drive one he was looking at).

[Zaphod]

I definitely notice more sedans than liftbacks in St. Louis.

Only recently have I started seeing more liftbacks on the road.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Not sure why various areas have more of one than the other.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

Not sure why various areas have more of one than the other.

seems like college and party areas have more liftbacks... :headbang:

[Reeves360]

UPDATE: It's been confirmed by another dealer now that had tried to get order info for us. Not publicly announced, but it does appear the Yaris Sedan ends in 2010.

Edmunds has a stub article (http://www.edmunds.com/toyota/yarishybrid/2011/featuresandspecs.html) up saying it's in the process of reviewing the "2011 Toyota Yaris Hybrid Sedan." Perhaps the Sedan will only be available in the hybrid now and that is the change? A Treehugger update (http://www.treehugger.com/files/2009/07/toyota-yaris-based-hybrid-not-yet-autocar.php) suggests it's coming but may be branded as something other than Yaris.

If anyone else wants to try to confirm that info either way I'm happy to update the OP with what you find out. And yes I've seen the tentative dealer reference sheets for May, and they would have been printed before this supposed "meeting" we were told happened a week or two ago.
--------------------------
We're looking to buy a 2010 Yaris Sedan, but our local dealer just told us it's being discontinued, and we can't order one with the features we want. I've not seen that anywhere else on the net. Can anyone confirm that?
thanks

I don't think the original deal was being dishonest. Here are some key points people seem to be missing.

The customer asked the incorrect question. The customer asked the dealer if they could "order" not "buy" a Yaris Sedan. Let's assume the Yaris is going to be re-released in 2011 as a hybrid. If this is true you couldn't "order" a Yaris but you could pick up many of the models already on the lot.

The customer stated "we can't order one with the feature we want". Some combos of features are ordered from the factory built to order and generally aren't requested by most dealerships.

If these are the facts the the sales man is completely correct. Maybe the dealership can't order the specific sedan with the exact options he wanted because Toyota the manufacture is no longer taking orders from Toyota the dealerships.

Now on to the next dispute, is the car really being discontinued?

I have no proof to link you guys to right this minute but a little over a year ago I remember coming across some articles that were speculating that Toyota would move it's Yaris Sedan into the hybrid market.

The reason for this change is the demand for hybrid vehicles has gone up and to compete with the Nissan Leaf and the Chevy Volt. What Toyota wants to do is have the cheapest hybrid vehicle on the market. I think I remember they were going to try to stay in the 17k range for the base model. Compare that to the Chevy Volt which will be in the 40k+ range.

This is great news considering I was going to buy a Prius but couldn't justify the additional cost vs the added 2 miles a difference in gas mileage when compared to the Yaris. Even though I drive 100+ miles a day it would take me over 10 years to start saving money.

So a Yaris Sedan hybrid for under 20k, I'm all about it.

Sounds like to me Toyota knows exactly what they are doing and we have nothing to worry about when it comes to loosing the Yaris Sedan, it's just going to become a hybrid which is why I bought the Yaris in the first place. Hybrid like mileage with out the Hybrid like price.

:w00t:

[Thirty-Nine]

This will be interesting. I checked Toyota's press site; nothing to be said there about this (yet?).

[djct_watt]

Egg on my face if it proves to be true. I'll wait for a press release.

[birdman]

The sedan has such a cheerful look I cant imagine it being cut.

[why?]

we know for a fact that a smaller, less expensive hybrid is coming. But that in no way means it could replace the Yaris sedan.

[djct_watt]

Man, I have no idea why everyone is SO keen on believe their dealers. Oh noes, the new supra is coming, it was supposed to be here in 2005, but it'll be here next week really. Oh noes, Toyota will release a RWD 400hp coupe for under $20,000. Yeah.

Ok,
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=493137#post493137
which quotes data from
[http://www.insideline.com/toyota/2011-toyotas-priced.html[/url]

and this source direct from Toyota confirms a Sedan:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-announces-pricing-on-2011-163951.aspx

Yeah, you received a special deal, just for you from the "manager," but you have to buy it today. What will it take for you to buy this car (that we have in stock and need to get rid of) today?

[djct_watt]

Man, I have no idea why everyone is SO keen on believe their dealers. Oh noes, the new supra is coming, it was supposed to be here in 2005, but it'll be here next week really. Oh noes, Toyota will release a RWD 400hp coupe for under $20,000. Yeah.

Ok,
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=493137#post493137
which quotes data from
[http://www.insideline.com/toyota/2011-toyotas-priced.html[/url]

and this source direct from Toyota confirms a Sedan:
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-announces-pricing-on-2011-163951.aspx

Yeah, you received a special deal, just for you from the "manager," but you have to buy it today. What will it take for you to buy this car (that we have in stock and need to get rid of) today?

Amazing that there are soooooo many replies to completely false and fake rumor spread by SALESPEOPLE (the absolute best source of automotive information EVARRRR) but no responses to the the myth being busted.

[chrisj]

I hate the sedan look myself...at least the stock look. Come to think of it, I didn't like my LB's stock look much when I got it. People called it "cute". I'm sorry, but "cute" to me was an insult. Cute sux... :)

[Red Horse]

there is more sedan on the street that the lift back

[rene0023]

:thumbsup:That's right! Hehe

[DebbyM46227]

To me, the sedan looks like a Corolla.

[eric81]

Okay, here is an end to this stupid debate... I work for Pueblo Toyota in Pueblo, Colorado. I sell cars for a living. I get the first view of all cars made before they are actually made. I can promise that Toyota is coming out with 6 versions of the Yaris in the US. A 3-door liftback in manula and one in automatic, a 5-door liftback in manual and one in automatic, and a 4-door sedan in manula and one in liftback. They are getting rid of certian colors though. They are still trying to figure out which ones they will not release this year, but certian ones won't be available on the sedan, and the same thing goes with the liftbacks. They are still using the 1.5L 1NZ-FE engine, and the same tranny as last year. Nothing is changing this year. End of discussion.

[djct_watt]

Okay, here is an end to this stupid debate... I work for Pueblo Toyota in Pueblo, Colorado. I sell cars for a living. I get the first view of all cars made before they are actually made. I can promise that Toyota is coming out with 6 versions of the Yaris in the US. A 3-door liftback in manula and one in automatic, a 5-door liftback in manual and one in automatic, and a 4-door sedan in manula and one in liftback. They are getting rid of certian colors though. They are still trying to figure out which ones they will not release this year, but certian ones won't be available on the sedan, and the same thing goes with the liftbacks. They are still using the 1.5L 1NZ-FE engine, and the same tranny as last year. Nothing is changing this year. End of discussion.

That's what I posted. . . I posted a damn press release from Toyota. . . I think that's as concrete as it gets. . .

[fnkngrv]

To me, the sedan looks like a Corolla.


:confused:

seriously? wow...I don't know what to say to that one...if anything the new gen corolla would like similar to the yaris as the yaris came out with the body style it is first. :iono:

[Hershey]

the 2011 PRESSROOM thread states the sedan is still in the making .

[djct_watt]

Yeah... I don't know where this hatch vs. sedan debate came from, but there was a rumor started waaaaaay back that the 2011 Sedan was discontinued because the SALESGUY said so. . . so we had a long debate about it. . . and when it was resolved, everyone went quiet.

[Hershey]

We seem to be more informed on their cars than some of the salesman do . Some get a bit offensive .

[why?]

We seem to be more informed on their cars than some of the salesman do . Some get a bit offensive .

Of course we are. We care about the car we drive, they don't. It is just that simple. They have so much crap to worry about that some things will slip. Heck, they have to have a good idea of every single car on their lot, what sold the day before, what they might be getting in, etc, etc, etc.

We just have to worry about 1 car.

[djct_watt]

Of course we are. We care about the car we drive, they don't. It is just that simple. They have so much crap to worry about that some things will slip. Heck, they have to have a good idea of every single car on their lot, what sold the day before, what they might be getting in, etc, etc, etc.

We just have to worry about 1 car.


There are some salespeople who are in the know, but they make up less than a tenth of one percent of sales staff. . . and that goes for the entire dealership as a whole (one giant sales/profit organization with extremely loose ties to Toyota Motor Co.). I just hate it when people post up BS rumors they get from dealers and argue and argue about how honest they are. This is the fundamental problem with the internet. . . the source of rumors is almost always unreliable. . .