Manual Shifting, A Dying Technology

[Yaris Hilton]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601093&sid=a1bBvbTkXwt0

[STC]

Thank you for sharing! :smile:

I've only owned manuals.

Cheers!

[Altitude]

Here's hoping I die long before the use of manual transmissions does. I can't stand automatics!

[GrimlockGT]

I hope I never see the day when a manual is no longer offered. Every car I've ever owned has been a manual and I intend to keep it that way.

[RedHatch08]

Those flappy paddle gearboxes are crap. I've tried a few (not Ferrari admittedly), and they were pointless. You might as well just leave it in Drive. It adds nothing to the driving experience.

Manual driving is definitely becoming a lost art. It was kind of funny when I went to the dealership to test drive the (5 speed) Yaris I eventually bought.

When I was getting in to drive it, the sales guy seemed almost concerned/surprised about me driving this strange vehicle that I had to shift myself.

I assured him it was fine, but his concern told me a lot about the typical customer he was used to seeing (slushbox drivers). Plus this was actually a GM dealer, so they probably get even less manual drivers than at one of the "foreign" car dealers.

[tomato]

Manual FTW!!!!

[Yaris Hilton]

There have been automatics blowing doors off of manual cars for 40+ years. I enjoy shifting, too, but as for "separating drivers from operators," there's no more truth to that than there was for knowing how to use a manual choke or hand crank start. Properly designed and programmed automatics will always outperform manuals as the human operator isn't up to snuff on determining the best operating conditions and can't manually perform the shift as quickly. Automatics that don't outperform manuals have design and programming deficiencies.

[severous01]

you all need to drive a bmw M car. i drove a M3 and that changed my mind. it is a manual transmission with automatic double clutch and automatic gear selection via solenoids. thing is awesome. can pull out of one gear and put into another at the same time. not like moving the shifter from 4-5 or from 1-3 or whatever. if you want to go from 4-7, it's immediate and quicker than you can think.

you have an option for full auto or steering controls, or shifter controls. if you hit the button on the wheel and it's in auto, it'll still downshift. and it wont upshift unless you hit it...but if you screw it up it'll know and you'll pay for it. if you bust redline it records it in the flight data for next shop visit...

[MadMax]

I've been predicting that for years now, manuals are barbaric and automatic transmission technologies advancing so fast that it won't be long before manuals aren't available at all!

By the way, most competitive offroad vehicles have automatic transmissions as well. When I got my Jeep with an auto, a few bozos gave me grief until they found out how much better it wheeled on the trail!

And, as I've always said, you can always shift an auto but you'll never get a manual to shift automatically!

Autos FTW!

[darkmoon87]

you all need to drive a bmw M car. i drove a M3 and that changed my mind. it is a manual transmission with automatic double clutch and automatic gear selection via solenoids. thing is awesome. can pull out of one gear and put into another at the same time. not like moving the shifter from 4-5 or from 1-3 or whatever. if you want to go from 4-7, it's immediate and quicker than you can think.

you have an option for full auto or steering controls, or shifter controls. if you hit the button on the wheel and it's in auto, it'll still downshift. and it wont upshift unless you hit it...but if you screw it up it'll know and you'll pay for it. if you bust redline it records it in the flight data for next shop visit...

i was gonna say pretty much the same thing except that i was about to suggest people to drive the new evo with paddle shift. but tbh, manual is more fun hands down. performance wise, these automatic trannies with clutch can perform way better than a traditional manual gearbox

[bkrownd]

One of the reasons I got my manual now is in case they aren't offered on economy models in the future. I had to wait 6 months for a manual to arrive here. The auto makers have a vested interest in selling automatics that will need expensive repairs in the future, so I'm a little suprised that they still offer them without at least charging an extra premium.

I drive various automatics at work, and I refute any comments that you can "shift" them like a manual. They in no way operate like a manual. They shift when they darn well want to, which is not necessarily when you want them to, if they decide to allow it at all. We have several that frequently refuse to be downshifted to engine brake - yes at very reasonable RPMs - which is a safety hazard. The ones that toggle sideways (Fluffy Jeeps) are the worst. The mechanism is probably worn out because it was never designed to be used regularly by the average consumer. Nevermind that many of us navigate the mountains daily. But expensive repairs to all this nonsense are all part of the manufacturers' grand plan to increase profits.

[tomato]

There have been automatics blowing doors off of manual cars for 40+ years. I enjoy shifting, too, but as for "separating drivers from operators," there's no more truth to that than there was for knowing how to use a manual choke or hand crank start. Properly designed and programmed automatics will always outperform manuals as the human operator isn't up to snuff on determining the best operating conditions and can't manually perform the shift as quickly. Automatics that don't outperform manuals have design and programming deficiencies.

Only one thing is missing from this argument: the pleasure you get from driving stick. I know it's an acquired taste, not for everybody, but for those of us who enjoy driving stick, it's really hard to take it away. I hate that manuals are so hard to find in this country.

I probably should have gotten an auto (many benefits to having an auto around here with all these hills, in traffic, plus if I ever need someone to drive my car in emergency it would be easier) but taking the stick out of the car changes the experience considerably and to me diminishes the pleasure

When I was a little kid (back then there was no law saying kids had to be in the back), my dad used to let me pretend I was changing gears (I'd put my hand on the stick and he put his hand on top of mine and actually changed gears, not me, but I always thought I was doing it ;) It made me believe I was helping drive the car. It was pretty cool. I loved it.

Driving an automatic isn't the same, no matter how well it's engineered :smile:

sorry for the long post. I feel passionate about my stick-shift habit :frown:

:burnrubber:

[RedHatch08]

One of the reasons I got my manual now is in case they aren't offered on economy models in the future. I had to wait 6 months for a manual to arrive here. The auto makers have a vested interest in selling automatics that will need expensive repairs in the future, so I'm a little suprised that they still offer them without at least charging an extra premium.


It's starting.

A new Challenger will hit you for like an extra GRAND if you want the 6 speed.

Used to be the other way around.

[silver_echo]

i remember that my grandpa taught me gear location at the beginning of a trip, then for the rest of the trip i was the only one to touch the shifter... period... after that i never forgot a shift pattern... manual trans FTW! slushboxes have their place, but it is not for the spirited driver... and IMO, ALL drivers should be taught how to drive a stick...

[bkrownd]

and IMO, ALL drivers should be taught how to drive a stick...

By a competent instructor. My mother's attempts at teaching me to drive manual transmission actually made me scared of them in high school. :eek: Took 15 minutes with grandpa to get the problem sorted out.

[severous01]

i was gonna say pretty much the same thing except that i was about to suggest people to drive the new evo with paddle shift. but tbh, manual is more fun hands down. performance wise, these automatic trannies with clutch can perform way better than a traditional manual gearbox

the EVO is like 56k vs cable on the M3 or M5 trans. it's so lagged out, it's like an auto that's trying to be manual. the double clutch M trans is an actual manual that's been retrofitted with parts that make it automatic.

but yes, it's similar.

[slothman86]

IMHO, If you have an auto it should have the same type of engine breaking system that the prius has. When I test drove it, I thought it was a pretty cool feature. But, MT connects you with the car so much more.

Oh and there should ALWAYS be a physical way the driver can sever the connection between the engine and the transmission (Or engine and wheels) at least a back up system of some sort. *hint hint* Run away Toyota.

Oh and off topic if there is ever a run away car with a manual transmission the driver should be banned from driving!

[Aothachos]

wish i had bought a manual :(

[Rick]

For many decades I have driven both auto and manual. The old autos that used simple fluidic logic were tolerable. They were repeatable enough that you could learn to fully control them with just throttle position. When I began to encounter electronically controlled autos I lost all tolerance for them. They are following their own plan and you are a mere suggestion. It's the same loathing I have for the throttle-by-wire system in my Yaris. In delicate low-traction driving situations it's a seriously irritating handicap.

Autos have their place, but that's not in my vehicles. It's a pity that the modern mindset is that we must all sink to the level of the least competent among us, even in transmission choices.

One thing an auto-trans simply can not do, while a human controlling a manual-trans can handily do, is anticipate. Sometimes that's key.

All in all, automatic transmissions are a limitation I will likely never voluntarily choose.

[Aothachos]

auto is boring to me, i would've had more fun driving my car as a manual :(, i could careless if theres traffic

[1stToyota]

I once drove my 5-speed Mustang GT through Carmel Valley. I think I would have had a little trouble with some of those turns if I would have tried to keep up in an auto. Probably not as obvious in the Yaris but I noticed that the auto xD felt pretty lame taking some of the same corners as my manual Yaris.

[Cosmonaut]

Coming from a driver whose mustang was once auto and then manual( yes, i swapped it). i have to say that manual is just soooooo much more fun to drive. im not talking about performance or anything like that but the feeling of banging gears is awesome.

[Yaris Hilton]

So is the feeling of dialing a real rotary phone!

[darkmoon87]

So is the feeling of dialing a real rotary phone!

oh boy i remember those days lol

[tomato]

^ me too. And you got a live operator at the other end, never got transferred to India or anything ;)

[tomato]

(not that I have anything against ppl in India :smile: )

[STC]

^ me too. And you got a live operator at the other end, never got transferred to India or anything ;)

And you never owned the physical phone... leased through the telephone company! No RJ-11 plug...

I feel old... :smile:

[SilverBack]

Looks like there's one more reason for some of us to keep our Yarii.

And I think if they phase-out cars with manual trannies in the future, then at least aftermarket manuals should be offered at lower prices. Otherwise it might not sit too well with us serious drivers, especially those of us who are trying to move-up to track racing. Besides I'd never never wanna waste my time ever again with another automatic, or take a chance with a tip-tronic, paddle-shifting, whatever... If it doesn't have a stick on the floor (or collar) with a clutch peddle, then I don't want it. That's all I'm gonna say.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

I love my manual. Even the best designed auto saps power. On a super car like a Ferrari it's not really an issue, but on tiny cars, with tiny engines (like Yari), a manual is almost necessary. When I bought my Yaris brand new (first new car ever owned) I refused to compromise on that 1 point. Autos are no where near as fun to drive. I learned to drive a manual from my best friend and video games if you believe it. I was quite rough on my first manual, but I got a lot better, and now driving an auto feels weird. I hope I can get a manual in what ever my next car is (assuming it's gasoline engine powered, you know about Toyota reliability lol)

[IllusionX]

btw.... i drive a smart for work. That thing has a 6 speed automatic manual transmission..
ie, a real automated clutch and a real... automated manual transmission.
it doesn't feel bad to drive. it shifts when it hits past redline, so it's possible to keep it at the redline for a long time.

perhaps feels like a 40hp Ferrari. lol

[tomato]

btw.... i drive a smart for work. That thing has a 6 speed automatic manual transmission..
ie, a real automated clutch and a real... automated manual transmission.
it doesn't feel bad to drive. it shifts when it hits past redline, so it's possible to keep it at the redline for a long time.

perhaps feels like a 40hp Ferrari. lol

:laugh: I don't think so :smile:

[Rain]

I'm hoping they're still around by the time I save up for a new car.. I want my next one to be manual :D

[IllusionX]

tomato: lol it's the first model too... so turbo diesel.. i love spooling that turbine.. starting at 1800rpm :P

[IllusionX]

redline at 3300?:biggrin:

i think it's around 3500rpm.. :biggrin:

off topic, but i don't know if you ever seen those double length bus (the 45 that goes from downtown to Brossard) When i was younger, i used to sit up front, watching the cluster.

that thing reved from 500 to 1200rpm and had a 2000rpm redline.

[Altitude]

... and now driving an auto feels weird.

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

[CtrlAltDefeat]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

allllllll the time lol *stomp* stomp* oh wait no clutch to press when you start it...

[tomato]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

<----- +1

[silver_echo]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

how about trying to downshift coming off the freeway... do that just about every time i drive an auto nowadays...

[STC]

how about trying to downshift coming off the freeway... do that just about every time i drive an auto nowadays...

LOL! Oh Yeah!!! In a rental... in Chicago... Labor Day Weekend... when everyone is leaving the city and your entering! Craaazy... Not fun if you don't regularly drive an auto!

[1stToyota]

(not that I have anything against ppl in India :smile: )

Especially if they look like Shilpa :drool:

http://www.hotbollywoodactress.net/data/media/76/shilpa74.jpg

[Kongo-Otto]

you all need to drive a bmw M car. i drove a M3 and that changed my mind. it is a manual transmission with automatic double clutch and automatic gear selection via solenoids. thing is awesome. can pull out of one gear and put into another at the same time. not like moving the shifter from 4-5 or from 1-3 or whatever. if you want to go from 4-7, it's immediate and quicker than you can think.

you have an option for full auto or steering controls, or shifter controls. if you hit the button on the wheel and it's in auto, it'll still downshift. and it wont upshift unless you hit it...but if you screw it up it'll know and you'll pay for it. if you bust redline it records it in the flight data for next shop visit...

No BMW needed. Maybe its, again, different in the US but in Europe you can get these transmissions from various car brands, like:

Fiat
Alfa Romeo
Chrysler
Ferrari
Ford
Mercedes-Benz
Mitsubishi
Peugeot
Volvo
Porsche
Bugatti
Volkswagen
Artega
Audi
Seat
Škoda
Nissan GT-R

But for now i don't want to have one. If you are out of warranty and suffer from a transmission failure it is getting expensive since they usually just change the whole thing at your cost. Only very few companies can repair these transmissions.

[jpmck03]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

:laugh: Happens anytime I have to use my wife's Jetta.

[IllusionX]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

always...!!

[RedHatch08]

It does. How many of us have reached for the non-existent stick or tried to stomp on the non-existent clutch pedal when entering an automatic? :smile:

Yup. Done that.

[talnlnky]

When you can push start an automatic.... and you can shift it just like a manual, without any lag... then i'll consider an automatic.

My first car was an 86jeep, I decided my 2nd would be an auto (mazda 626), and after driving the mazda for a year I decided I would never buy a manual again because it's annoying on hills, and when you want to drive sporty, and more importantly, it was too easy to fall asleep at the wheel. It was hard for me to stay awake in that car. Something about having to moving two feet and the stick keeps a driver awake.

[CtrlAltDefeat]

When you can push start an automatic.... and you can shift it just like a manual, without any lag... then i'll consider an automatic.

My first car was an 86jeep, I decided my 2nd would be an auto (mazda 626), and after driving the mazda for a year I decided I would never buy a manual again because it's annoying on hills, and when you want to drive sporty, and more importantly, it was too easy to fall asleep at the wheel. It was hard for me to stay awake in that car. Something about having to moving two feet and the stick keeps a driver awake.

I push started my automatic geo metro once... put it in N then slammed it into L once it got a little speed. Worked pretty great, except for the issues getting it up to speed in the parking lot I was in...

As far as MT keeping me awake, I'm not sure there is much of a difference... on the highway, you don't have to shift and in stop and go traffic, if having to stop and accelerate isn't enough to keep you awake, I don't think adding the shifting into it helps much. :iono: