Shifting without the clutch

[mark293]

Does anyone routinely shift without using the clutch? I did this for years on my 5 speed F350, and as long as you are in the right rpm range the shifts are just as smooth as using the clutch. The Yaris seems tailor made for this type of driving if you use common sense.

[Yaris Hilton]

Using common sense implies using the clutch. Transmission synchros can cope with clutchless shifting to a point, if you're cruising under neutral power so there's little or no torque on the gears, but they'll wear out a lot faster than if you declutch as you should. If you really want to reduce wear, you'll double clutch to match the speed of the gears before they start to engage again. The proper way to shift without using the clutch is to buy an automatic.

[Kongo-Otto]

Why should one not use the clutch? Laziness?
The Yaris has no dogbox so you should use the clutch at any gear change. It is no "kind of driving" it is just abuse.

[matanfr]

excuse me,Yaris Hilton..
but what do you mean by "double clutch"? and can i perform it if i have robotic transmission?

[Kongo-Otto]

excuse me,Yaris Hilton..
but what do you mean by "double clutch"? and can i perform it if i have robotic transmission?

You have MMT? You can't double clutch then. It is not necessary anyways. The Yaris is no oldschool bus or truck.

[mark293]

No need to call me names. Lazy I am not. I was just curious if this technique was used by anyone else. BTW, using this technique my F350 had 576,000 miles on it before I gave it away to a gentleman in the church who needed a reliable daily driver. I hope your Yaris last at least half as long. Ill continue to do what I want and you all can continue your childish ways. Thanks and have a great day.

[Kongo-Otto]

No need to call me names. Lazy I am not. I was just curious if this technique was used by anyone else. BTW, using this technique my F350 had 576,000 miles on it before I gave it away to a gentleman in the church who needed a reliable daily driver. I hope your Yaris last at least half as long. Ill continue to do what I want and you all can continue your childish ways. Thanks and have a great day.

Sorry, but it is abuse to shift a manual car without using the clutch. We are not talking about race cars, do we? That has nothing to do with "call me names" or "childish". Nice to hear your old car did not take any damage with your so-called technique. :thumbup:

That is no offense. :smile: I still don't get the advantage of your technique. Can you explain it to us?

[mark293]

Its not like Im saving a few milliseconds by not using the clutch, I was just making a statement as to what was possible. However the clutchless shifting appears to be slightly smoother.

Its funny how so called forum experts chime in as to what is detrimental to a vehicle, such as in oil debates, but they have no empirical proof. Im sure no one expected the 400k Yaris on this forum to last that long while doing regular top speed runs. My vehicle is paid for and I plan on keeping it for its entire service life. When I get to 200, 300, or even 400k miles without a transmission related failure, Ill let you know. Until then keep on giving expert advice.

[bronsin]

Sure I did/do it all the time with my ECHO and now with my Suzuki DL1000. Its a good skill to have. Once on a 500 mile trip from home my Toyota pickup had the clutch pedal freeze in the up position. You couldnt push it dowm. A bolt had worked out and got jamed in the mechanism. I had to R&R the trans and fix it. But before I could do that I drove 500 miles home with no clutch! If youre wondering how to start moving heres how: put the trans in first and crank the engine. The vehicle will move and the engine start. If you have a "push the clutch in to start" car, then youll have to disable it. First thing Idid on my ECHO.
Clutchless shifting on my Suzuki is incredibly smooth. Even downshifting. That transmission is amazing.

[Yaris Hilton]

excuse me,Yaris Hilton..
but what do you mean by "double clutch"? and can i perform it if i have robotic transmission?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_clutch

[thebarber]

i could do it in my matrix xrs...but i cant remember the rpms to do it

i havent found the clutchless spot on the yaris (yet)...if you find out, let us know

i don't think it hurts the synchros at all, PK, there just an area in the gearing in most cars where you can pull it out of gear and put it into the next one w/o using the clutch

[AND189]

everyone is an expert on here that is why we are here ha ha i was keen to master the clutchless shift just to see if i can do it
lutchless shifting is ok for straight cut gears not helical like the Yaris well i can say i only did it once not a good sound ha ha, but if someone can shed some light on speed / rpm just to see if i can do it, it would be helpful mark293 ???

[Kongo-Otto]

Clutchless shifting on my Suzuki is incredibly smooth. Even downshifting. That transmission is amazing.

It is because it has a straight gearbox, like most other regular motorcycles. You can shift up without a clutch and if you are not doing it completely wrong there will be no more wear to the transmission.

Downshifting without clutch needs a little more practice and i would not recommend it even if it could work smoothly.

[Yaris Hilton]

everyone is an expert on here that is why we are here ha ha

You got it! :biggrin:

[SAV912]

No need to call me names. Lazy I am not. I was just curious if this technique was used by anyone else. BTW, using this technique my F350 had 576,000 miles on it before I gave it away to a gentleman in the church who needed a reliable daily driver. I hope your Yaris last at least half as long. Ill continue to do what I want and you all can continue your childish ways. Thanks and have a great day.

How the hell is it CHILDISH to use a car the way it was suppose to be used?

If not using the clutch pedal was smoother or more economical or faster or, hell, brought magical baby unicorns back from extinction, then there wouldn't be a clutch pedal in the car. It was easier on a damn F350 because that's a work truck with some meaningful torque to it.

Don't walk onto these forums and immediately start throwing boulders in your glass house because everyone else here shut you down with your clutchless shifting.

-SAV:drinking:

[thebarber]

How the hell is it CHILDISH to use a car the way it was suppose to be used?

If not using the clutch pedal was smoother or more economical or faster or, hell, brought magical baby unicorns back from extinction, then there wouldn't be a clutch pedal in the car. It was easier on a damn F350 because that's a work truck with some meaningful torque to it.

Don't walk onto these forums and immediately start throwing boulders in your glass house because everyone else here shut you down for being an idiot with your clutchless shifting.

-SAV:drinking:

lol

unicorns are extinct and therefore actually exisited?

and who's slinging boulders now, mr 26 posts...?

[SAV912]

lol

unicorns are extinct and therefore actually exisited?

and who's slinging boulders now, mr 26 posts...?

Yep. I saw them in my dreams. :biggrin:

Come now, good sir, low post counts does not mean a lack of knowledge. I've lurked for a few years now. What was that saying about being thought a fool, rather than opening your mouth so everyone KNEW you were a fool? :iono:

-SAV :drinking:

[bronsin]

It is because it has a straight gearbox, like most other regular motorcycles. You can shift up without a clutch and if you are not doing it completely wrong there will be no more wear to the transmission.

Downshifting without clutch needs a little more practice and i would not recommend it even if it could work smoothly.


Practice on a Zuk DL1000 and you'll be an expert in no time!

[mark293]

[QUOTE=SAV912;482078]How the hell is it CHILDISH to use a car the way it was suppose to be used?

If not using the clutch pedal was smoother or more economical or faster or, hell, brought magical baby unicorns back from extinction, then there wouldn't be a clutch pedal in the car. It was easier on a damn F350 because that's a work truck with some meaningful torque to it.

Don't walk onto these forums and immediately start throwing boulders in your glass house because everyone else here shut you down with your clutchless shifting.

Then maybe this is not the forum for me. I was under the impression that this forum was a place where useful ideas and opinions could be expressed without fear of abuse regarding our beloved Yaris. Im sorry you do not agree with my shifting technique and Im not holding a gun to your head to follow in my footsteps. All I was asking was if anyone else employed this technique. It looks like some do and some dont. Fine by me.

Dont walk in here....damn f350...unicorns? It is quite possible sir that the reason I do not have 500 posts is because my Yaris is trouble free and I have finer things to do then spend my unaccounted for time on an econobox forum. But good luck to you.

[SAV912]

Dont walk in here....damn f350...unicorns? It is quite possible sir that the reason I do not have 500 posts is because my Yaris is trouble free and I have finer things to do then spend my unaccounted for time on an econobox forum. But good luck to you.

Maybe that is possible. I'm right behind you in that case, as this would be my 28th post, so I've got quite a ways to go before I get to 500. But just for you, Pumpkin, I'll do my best. :smile:

My Yaris is trouble free as well and the only problem I've had with it was something I did myself. Cracking the front bumper running over a tractor gator on I95. But I hardly consider that the car's fault.

FWIW, I've tried clutchless shifting in my Yaris and found it to be cumbersome and shaky, at best. Awful grinding noises at worst. I used to be perfectly capable of clutchless shifting on my old Mark III Jetta. And I had to be. The clutch cable on that hunk of shit snapped. Twice. :eek:

If you can do it, fantastic. More power to you. It's a carefully executed art, albeit one that I don't care to perfect at the cost of my transmission's synchros. Since I got a moderator to step in though, I do apologize for my harsh first post. I still firmly believe unicorns once existed though. :biggrin:

-SAV :drinking:

[thebarber]

maybe try microimageonline.com forums...

stick around here too, not all the people are pretards

[tomato]

Does anyone routinely shift without using the clutch? I did this for years on my 5 speed F350, and as long as you are in the right rpm range the shifts are just as smooth as using the clutch. The Yaris seems tailor made for this type of driving if you use common sense.

No. I don't think the clutch would like it one bit. .02

[thebarber]

No. I don't think the clutch would like it one bit. .02

clutch wouldnt care....its not getting used....

mark293, im not sure people on this site have every heard about shifting without the clutch...

[ddongbap]

I do it when I'm tired. I down shift w/o the clutch too. 'Cept one time, it made this HUGE clunk. Even huger than normal, and the car did a jolt slow. Idk what it was, but I ignored it.

[ddongbap]

Btw, you guys rage too much. If hes doing it wrong, tell him so. But let him keep doing it wrong. Who cares?

[djct_watt]

A good skill to have, but it is abusing the transmission. I hurt my left leg badly in a motorcycle accident once, and had to drive myself to the hospital. . . I did it all on one leg. It was in the Yaris.

Use the right leg to engage the clutch and start moving without any gas (lucky there were no hills). Once first was going, it was easy. Clutchless shifting from there on out (and it's very easy). Any car can be shifted that way. . . but your shifts have to be perfect. Mess up once and it's a hard grind. IMO, it's not worth it since it's so easy to just press the clutch.

If I was that lazy, then I would have gotten an auto.

[sickpuppy1]

Truckers do it all the time, but the dont have sychro's and they are designed for this type of shifting after leaving low gear, I've heard its not good on the synchronizers also, but I'm no tranny expert. Funny, heres a video for ya, its called rev matching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLw0hAtOik4&feature=youtu.be&a%29

[Yaris Hilton]

Truckers do it all the time, but the dont have sychro's and they are designed for this type of shifting after leaving low gear, I've heard its not good on the synchronizers also, but I'm no tranny expert. Funny, heres a video for ya, its called rev matching.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLw0hAtOik4&feature=youtu.be&a%29

Rev matching = double clutching. The idea is to make the two shafts spin at the same speed before they come together. You can do that during the time the transmission's in a "neutral" state between gears without the clutch, but unless you can control the throttle so the gears have zero load on them as you're disengaging and engaging them, you're going to stress them more. The clutch is there to be used. Clutchless shifting is something to do in an emergency.

[Yar Is Word]

Anyone remember "Clutch Cargo"?

[bankrobber]

Does anyone routinely shift without using the clutch? I did this for years on my 5 speed F350, and as long as you are in the right rpm range the shifts are just as smooth as using the clutch. The Yaris seems tailor made for this type of driving if you use common sense.

I get lazy sometimes and grind gears from not full pressing in clutch to shift.
My truck a 1988 Ranger 4x4 was no problem to shift with no clutch. I could upshift,downshift, and even go from neutral to first with just tapping the gas while moving.
Maybe the Yaris will start to like it after 200k.
I should add that I drive trucks for a living and only use clutch to start off. If I double clutch each shift I would be on my 3rd knee by now.
A lot of tractor trailers now have automatic transmission.
Probably not the best thing to do till it gets some miles on it

[ddongbap]

Rev matching = double clutching. The idea is to make the two shafts spin at the same speed before they come together. You can do that during the time the transmission's in a "neutral" state between gears without the clutch, but unless you can control the throttle so the gears have zero load on them as you're disengaging and engaging them, you're going to stress them more. The clutch is there to be used. Clutchless shifting is something to do in an emergency.

Its not the same thing though. They end up doing the same thing, but are done so in different ways.

[hwybox]

^^ good stuff haha. I've shifted 1-4 several times in my xB, without using the clutch, and have shown a few passengers it can be done. But the pop noise when you pull the shifter to get out of a gear, it does not sound good, for long term wear and tear. I would not recommend this for normal driving at all.

[ddongbap]

Blip the gas a tad before you bring it out.

[djct_watt]

^if you are doing it right there should be no pop sound. You need to shift to neutral at zero load; it's the moment you're neither applying
power nor engine braking.

[hwybox]

I've done it several time and it always make the noise, maybe the xB is diff?

[djct_watt]

I've tried it on my yaris, and also on both my xA and tC without the noise. The xB1 shares the same tranny and engine as the yaris and the xA, and the xB2 shares
the same engine/tranny as the tC. So the xB is not different.

[hwybox]

I've tried it on my yaris, and also on both my xA and tC without the noise. The xB1 shares the same tranny and engine as the yaris and the xA, and the xB2 shares
the same engine/tranny as the tC. So the xB is not different.

I know thats why im on this site lol, maybe im a tard...

[Yaris Hilton]

Anyone remember "Clutch Cargo"?
I do!

[bankrobber]

^if you are doing it right there should be no pop sound. You need to shift to neutral at zero load; it's the moment you're neither applying
power nor engine braking.

You need to pull it out of gear at the same time you let off the gas. If not exact on timming you will force it out of gear.

[ddongbap]

I've tried it on my yaris, and also on both my xA and tC without the noise. The xB1 shares the same tranny and engine as the yaris and the xA, and the xB2 shares
the same engine/tranny as the tC. So the xB is not different.

XB and Yaris trannys are different.

[thebarber]

Rev matching = double clutching
wrong

[ddongbap]

wrong

RONG.

[thebarber]

RONG.

i rev match w/o double clutching daily. double clutching is for trannies w/o synchro's.

[djct_watt]

XB and Yaris trannys are different.

Uuuuh. . . they both use C50 transmissions. . .

[BuildCode]

I've shifted without the clutch on previous cars....just to see how/that it could be done, but I gotta agree with everyone here, it just shouldn't really be done because the transmission has syncros and was designed to be shifted with a clutch, so it is most likely in the transmission's best interest to shift with the clutch.

I double clutch whenever making big downshifts, like for example if I'm going to put the car in 2nd gear at 40mph (for a fun turn) I'll put the car in neutral with the clutch out and blip it up to 4,000rpm real quick, and then it shift into 2nd gear, it's amazing the difference feeling it just "drop" into 2nd in this situation (no waiting for the syncros to work). I believe this (double clutching for big downshifts) is very good for the life of the syncros. Shifting without the clutch would do the opposite to the life of the syncros UNLESS you literally rev matched PERFECTLY every time. Which I don't care how good of a driver you are, the Yaris' electronic throttle and other environmental factors will not allow you to literally perfectly rev match every shift - You're going to be putting wear on the syncros, and it will be more wear than normal.

[AND189]

ladies please

[thebarber]

*unsubscribing*

[AND189]

thebarber
can't handle the heat

[bronsin]

I do!


Animated lips. Never caught on.

[Altitude]

Hey, I have a question about oil...

[AND189]

well this thread is about Shifting without the clutch not oil

[Kongo-Otto]

Hey, I have a question about oil...

You can take whatever you want, even old vegetable fat is fine because i know someone who read in the internet about a guy who made 500.000 mls with his lawn mower only on vegetable fat.

Attention: Irony!

[ddongbap]

Uuuuh. . . they both use C50 transmissions. . .

O. Maybe. The gearing is different. Thats all I was getting to.

[ddongbap]

i rev match w/o double clutching daily. double clutching is for trannies w/o synchro's.

I was jk about the wrong.

But you REALLY should be granny shiftin' like you aughtta.

[ddongbap]

Hey, I have a question about oil...

Me too. Is synthetic better than regular dyno oil? Tamago, can you chime in?

[djct_watt]

O. Maybe. The gearing is different. Thats all I was getting to.

According to these sites,
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Toyota/Toyota_Transmission_Gear_Ratios.htm
http://www.vehix.com/car-reviews/2006/scion/xb/vehicle-specifications
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4997

They are exactly the same. Maybe the sites are wrong? The only difference is the final drive (which is easily changed between transmissions). But the gear ratios are the same.

[Billiam]

BTW...rev-matching is just bringing the engine rpm up to match the tranny's output shaft speed...usually when down shifting. It's got nothing to do with "double clutching".

[CtrlAltDefeat]

after all the drama in this thread, and watching that video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLw0hAtOik4) on how to shift without using the clutch, I decided to try it. It worked surprisingly well... no grinding, no loud noises, just a slight bump when shifting. I cannot vouch for it's long term reliability, but it seems like a handy skill if you ever need it (hurt leg, clutch problems etc.) Sayuki handled it like a champ. :thumbup:

[darkmoon87]

after all the drama in this thread, and watching that video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jLw0hAtOik4) on how to shift without using the clutch, I decided to try it. It worked surprisingly well... no grinding, no loud noises, just a slight bump when shifting. I cannot vouch for it's long term reliability, but it seems like a handy skill if you ever need it (hurt leg, clutch problems etc.) Sayuki handled it like a champ. :thumbup:

i tried it too and it works without any problem what so ever.

a good thing to know for sure.

[bronsin]

...so who won...the clutchers or the anti clutchers?

[sickpuppy1]

Aamco transmission wins,lol

[Astroman]

I tried it too and it worked. Wait, I have an auto :cool:

[CtrlAltDefeat]

I tried it too and it worked. Wait, I have an auto :cool:

lol yea but manuals rule :biggrin: :burnrubber:

[ddongbap]

According to these sites,
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_help/html/Toyota/Toyota_Transmission_Gear_Ratios.htm
http://www.vehix.com/car-reviews/2006/scion/xb/vehicle-specifications
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4997

They are exactly the same. Maybe the sites are wrong? The only difference is the final drive (which is easily changed between transmissions). But the gear ratios are the same.

No. You are totally right. That final drive was different. I just forgot or didn't care. Hahaha

[ddongbap]

FYI, shifting w/o the clutch pedal is going to ruin your exhaust hanger fluid.

[mario98c]

I tried in my sedan and it works!

[SAV912]

The argument was never whether or not it works. We knew it worked.

It's a matter of it being worth destroying your synchros. To me, it isn't.

-SAV

[ddongbap]

The argument was never whether or not it works. We knew it worked.

It's a matter of it being worth destroying your synchros. To me, it isn't.

-SAV

Can you prove its syncro destroying?

[Kongo-Otto]

Can you prove its syncro destroying?

Its obvious. Sooner or later you will miss the perfect shifting point. And sooner or later you will get the result.

Really, i can't believe people are testing to shift without clutch because of this thread now. Thats ridicolous and a shame. Thread should be deleted before something happens.

[sickpuppy1]

Unless its done just exactly right, your putting more wear on the synchros. Done just right(usually learned on a non-synchro tranny) its not bad. But on modern car tranny's with synchromesh you may not be 100% right and that when the excess wear comes in. The synchros are there so that you dont have to learn proper technique, and when the clutch is used, they make up the difference in tranny/motor speed under no load situation. When rev matching is done you are for all practical purposes floating the gears like a non synchro tranny. Like I said, when done exactly right,its not bad, its just learning it 100% correct that cause expensive tranny rebuild jobs. Some guys here have apparently learned it well, others will create job security for local repair shops,LOL

[bronsin]

None of the transmissions Ive shifted without using the clutch ever had a problem and some of them had 250k+ miles on them and were shifted like that several times a week. YMMV.

[ddongbap]

Nobody here can give me proof. Only speculation.

[ddongbap]

Anyone else know why clutchless shifting is bad for syncros?

[SAV912]

Anyone else know why clutchless shifting is bad for syncros?

It was just explained to you above. Synchromesh is there to help ease the transition between gear changes. The gears in the half of the transmission that can freely rotate are the ones that come into factor when you rev match and the shift lever freely slides into place. Those gears of the transmission can be freely rotating, or locked to the shaft. The synchros ensure that the speeds of the two shafts/gears are matched perfectly before letting the gears engage.

When you rev match, you are doing the work of the synchros by yourself but still putting excess force on the synchros, but if you mis-rev even slightly and still attempt to shove the shifter into gear and get an awful grinding noise, you are putting wear on not only the synchros, but the gears themselves as well. Sooner or later, you'll start wearing teeth off the gear itself, and eventually, whether or not you rev match perfectly, you will grenade that gear in the transmission. And other gears in the transmission don't like it when there is bits of broken gear roaming freely.

By all means, if you think you can rev match perfectly each and EVERY single time, go nuts. It's not my synchros you're eventually going to destroy. It's yours. So if giving your left leg an exercise during a drive is not worth it to you, then best of luck footing that new transmission bill. You probably should've invested the extra money in an automatic Yaris anyway, if that's the case.

-SAV

[ddongbap]

It was just explained to you above. Synchromesh is there to help ease the transition between gear changes. The gears in the half of the transmission that can freely rotate are the ones that come into factor when you rev match and the shift lever freely slides into place. Those gears of the transmission can be freely rotating, or locked to the shaft. The synchros ensure that the speeds of the two shafts/gears are matched perfectly before letting the gears engage.

When you rev match, you are doing the work of the synchros by yourself but still putting excess force on the synchros, but if you mis-rev even slightly and still attempt to shove the shifter into gear and get an awful grinding noise, you are putting wear on not only the synchros, but the gears themselves as well. Sooner or later, you'll start wearing teeth off the gear itself, and eventually, whether or not you rev match perfectly, you will grenade that gear in the transmission. And other gears in the transmission don't like it when there is bits of broken gear roaming freely.

By all means, if you think you can rev match perfectly each and EVERY single time, go nuts. It's not my synchros you're eventually going to destroy. It's yours. So if giving your left leg an exercise during a drive is not worth it to you, then best of luck footing that new transmission bill. You probably should've invested the extra money in an automatic Yaris anyway, if that's the case.

-SAVOk, so say I'm at 60 mph. I know that third gear falls around 4kish rpm. If I revved to 5, and pushed the gear into third and waited for the revs to drop till 4. Then thrid gear would take it. Is that still bad?

I understand how that'll be bad for the gears it self, but wouldn't that take the work off of the syncros?

Btw, idk what the other guys problem was. I just wanted an answer like this.

[ddongbap]

ok guys last 9 posts, not really on topic so i'll soft delete them ok. now kiss and make up, oh and not really nice to be critiquing someone's language skills if their native tongue is not English.

I never said anything about his language. He said poof. I assumed he meant PROOF. So I stated I did.

Then he told me to learn German. I told him I'm not trying to speak German on a German site. I didn't mention the fact he spelled telephone wrong. I knew what he meant. POOF was funnier than telefone or w/e he used.

Why am I not nice?

[SAV912]

Ok, so say I'm at 60 mph. I know that third gear falls around 4kish rpm. If I revved to 5, and pushed the gear into third and waited for the revs to drop till 4. Then thrid gear would take it. Is that still bad?

I understand how that'll be bad for the gears it self, but wouldn't that take the work off of the syncros?

Btw, idk what the other guys problem was. I just wanted an answer like this.

If you rev'd to 5K and tried shoving it into gear (because it wouldn't just slot right in), it wouldn't go in unless you forced it. If you succeed in forcing it, that's where the wear on your synchros and gear grinding comes in. Hence why the people above mentioned why you have to be absolutely spot on with your rev-matching.

Now if you know that 60 mph is about 4K in 3rd gear (I wouldn't know for sure, my Yaris doesn't have a tach) and held the car at exactly this engine speed in neutral with the gas pedal, then yes. The gear lever should slot right into 3rd gear with no problem. This action of being correct is not really a problem. It's much easier to upshift without the clutch than it is to downshift. It's the fact that every single human being will eventually blip the throttle wrong, mis-shift and force it in, causing excess wear on the synchros since the gear speed and output shaft speed are not correctly matched. Forcing it all the way in will just get gears grinding, just as what happens when missing a shift like we all did once upon a time when we were noob stickshift drivers. :biggrin:

Bottom line, you can try it and you can even become good at it. But that doesn't change the fact that our cars come with clutch pedals for a reason.

-SAV:drinking:

[ddongbap]

If you rev'd to 5K and tried shoving it into gear (because it wouldn't just slot right in), it wouldn't go in unless you forced it. If you succeed in forcing it, that's where the wear on your synchros and gear grinding comes in. Hence why the people above mentioned why you have to be absolutely spot on with your rev-matching.

Now if you know that 60 mph is about 4K in 3rd gear (I wouldn't know for sure, my Yaris doesn't have a tach) and held the car at exactly this engine speed in neutral with the gas pedal, then yes. The gear lever should slot right into 3rd gear with no problem. This action of being correct is not really a problem. It's much easier to upshift without the clutch than it is to downshift. It's the fact that every single human being will eventually blip the throttle wrong, mis-shift and force it in, causing excess wear on the synchros since the gear speed and output shaft speed are not correctly matched. Forcing it all the way in will just get gears grinding, just as what happens when missing a shift like we all did once upon a time when we were noob stickshift drivers. :biggrin:

Bottom line, you can try it and you can even become good at it. But that doesn't change the fact that our cars come with clutch pedals for a reason.

-SAV:drinking:

Well, some cars come with other crap nobody ever use sometimes.

Sorry of my questions seem like I'm trying to prove you wrong. I'm just trying to figure it out.

Btw, the gear accepts the shifter because its the right RPM range. Theres no grinding as it goes it. It just goes POP and takes it in. And only at the right RPM range, consistently.

Now, you may be right, but I think its kinda hard to mis shift w/o the clutch, seeing as the gates won't open if you're at the wrong speed range.

Anyways, long story short. Syncros are used to match difference in speeds on the clutch and the different gears. But if you go clutch-less, and use the engine to act as syncros, how would that put wear on the syncros?

[Yaris Hilton]

But if you go clutch-less, and use the engine to act as syncros, how would that put wear on the syncros?

Because you're not going to perfectly match the speed, and the synchro has a bigger job matching the transmission input shaft plus the massive flywheel and rotating assembly of the engine than just the free floating input shaft and friction disc of the disengaged clutch.

But if you think you can do it better without the clutch than with it, go ahead, wear it out. Don't come back here later complaining about Toyota's low quality transmission that tore up.

[bronsin]

For those of you who want to try clutchless shifting:

Accelerate to 15-20 mpg in first. Take your foot off the gas. Wait a couple of seconds then move the shifter into second. You dont do this quickly. Slow is best although it may seem counterintuitive. Use a firm motion.

Accelerate to whatever speed you customarily use for the appropriate gear. If you think you need to do better experiment by 1) varying the speed from which you shift. 2) vary the lenth of time before shifting after letting off on the gas.

Its possible to downshift too. Again, let off on the gas, shift to neutral (should be easy to do that) then blip the throttle and make your shift. It will be more challanging than up shifting but practice a little and youll get it. Maybe take a week between attempts?

Good Luck!

[SAV912]

Btw, the gear accepts the shifter because its the right RPM range. Theres no grinding as it goes it. It just goes POP and takes it in. And only at the right RPM range, consistently.



That 'pop' right there is wear on the synchros. If you do it EXACTLY correct, it slides right in with no noise whatsoever. The 'popping' noise is the synchros acting against the force of the shifter sliding into place without the use of the clutch pedal and this action is what wears them out. Sooner or later, you'll get grinds when shifting even when you do use the clutch pedal. Think Honda's 6-speed manual problems in the Acura RSX and Honda Civic Si. I'm not a fan of my shit popping out of gear under normal usage/acceleration, so that's why I'm not a fan of constant clutchless shifting.

-SAV:drinking:

[ddongbap]

That 'pop' right there is wear on the synchros. If you do it EXACTLY correct, it slides right in with no noise whatsoever. The 'popping' noise is the synchros acting against the force of the shifter sliding into place without the use of the clutch pedal and this action is what wears them out. Sooner or later, you'll get grinds when shifting even when you do use the clutch pedal. Think Honda's 6-speed manual problems in the Acura RSX and Honda Civic Si. I'm not a fan of my shit popping out of gear under normal usage/acceleration, so that's why I'm not a fan of constant clutchless shifting.

-SAV:drinking:

Oh, I didn't mean it went POP. I meant as in, it just pops in there.

[ddongbap]

Because you're not going to perfectly match the speed, and the synchro has a bigger job matching the transmission input shaft plus the massive flywheel and rotating assembly of the engine than just the free floating input shaft and friction disc of the disengaged clutch.

But if you think you can do it better without the clutch than with it, go ahead, wear it out. Don't come back here later complaining about Toyota's low quality transmission that tore up.

Shiet.... that makes total sense. Thats all I needed to know. Don't get all mad at me.

[Yaris Hilton]

I'm not mad at you. :smile:

[ddongbap]

I'm not mad at you. :smile:

Ok. Cause what you said made total sense, not just, "ITS BAD CAUSE I SAY SO, AND U CAN DO IT AND RUIN EVERYTHING AND U SUCK KTNKSBYE."

[yaris2010RS]

ok, so i have been shifting without a clutch basically since i got my car. the only gear i use a cluch it from 1st to 2nd, that is a must, u mess up there too much and its gonna be a tow truck home.

like it was said above, if u do it improperly u will mess it up......if u do anything improperly (including improper shifting WITH clutch) u will mess shit up.

i personally feel its smoother without the cluch but thats how i learned how to drive stick.

watch those informational youtube videos if u dont know how to do it, he explains it really great.

[ddongbap]

But Hilton puts out a good point. The Syncros are going to try to sync while the clutch is connected to the engine. It will try to spin, but it can't spin the engine. That's a sure recipe for some DIZZ ASS STAAA

[ddongbap]

ok guys last 9 posts, not really on topic so i'll soft delete them ok. now kiss and make up, oh and not really nice to be critiquing someone's language skills if their native tongue is not English.

Soo.. was I making fun of the guy's langauge?

[mark293]

Wow, never thought this post would go this long. I gave up a long time ago and just decided to peek my head in here. Yall be safe.

[Billiam]

Wow...is this an oil thread? :smoking:

[ddongbap]

you were criticizing his "mistakes".

I said something along the lines of

LOL U SAID POOF BUT I ASSUMED YOU SAID PROOF ANYWAYS. He made TONS more mistakes than that. I just went along with what I thought he meant he said. But the POOF one cracked me up cause I missed it. Wheres the insults?

[frog13]

Just shift with the clutch....it's there why?.duh.:clap: