Fuel Prices

[chrisj]

This is a new thread started on fuel prices and what is fair/unfair/good/bad.

My problem with fuel prices is how weather or breakdowns in a refinery or an oil spill may drastically affect pricing on any given day. I have been driving since 1972 and I don't remember this kind of thing happening until just a few years ago. Pricing was fairly stable for years until the Oil Crisis in 1973 (I think). Even 3 years later though, I was paying 76 cents (yes, that's right) a gallon for gas. I was paying 99 cents in 1991, so in 15 years the price only went up 23 cents. This is fact, because I lived it. We can now see gas go up 23 cents in a day.

I think $2.50 a gallon is too much, for sure. I would like to know exactly what the cost of producing a gallon of gasoline is, then I could either feel better about it or get more upset. I would say that I would get more upset if I found out what it costs to refine.

The entire reason for trading to a Yaris from our trusty 1998 Avalon was fuel economy (also, the Yaris just looks better). I did lots of research before settling on the Yaris because I know that gas prices will be higher again, and one day they will stay higher. I am just heading off the inevitable.

It costs just about 1/2 to fill up the new car than it did the old one. Of course the tank is smaller, but we get just about the same amount of miles from a tank. We have already figured that in gas savings alone, if we keep the Yaris as long as we kept the Avalon, the Yaris will basically be free, due to gas savings alone. So, while I hate $2.50 a gallon gas, we all have to pay it, and it only makes sense to get a car that gets the very best fuel economy.

[chrisj]

Oops. This thread probably should have been in the Fuel Economy forum. :/

[DebbyM46227]

This is telling my age but I remember when I got my first car (a used 1969 Cougar) I paid 25 cents a gallon! The gas stations by the interstate had gas wars.

I really think now it's supply/demand. Everyone in China now drives a car where they used to ride bikes.

[teddy]

2.50 a gallon is super cheap compared to our Canadian prices. I understand even more so compared to what they pay over in Europe.

On my way to work this morning I passed a gas station at 0.999 per Litre, which according to google (http://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGLS_enCA291CA305&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8&q=0.999+CAD+per+litre+in+USD+per+US+gallon) is equivalent to approx $3.67 USD/gallon.

Back in the summer of 2008, only a couple months after we got our Yaris I remember buying gas at $1.38 per Litre (about 5.07 USD/gallon). Thankfully it didn't stay that high for long, it gradually lowered over a few months.

[why?]

A huge chunk of the final gas cost we pay is taxes. The average state gas tax is around 27.2 cents a gallon, and the federal gas tax sits at 18.4 cents a gallon.

And this is a great article (http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/1168.html) on how much taxes oil companies pay in general. So basically oil companies pay more money in taxes than what they earn in profits each year.

Yup, the governments and its elected leaders are thieves and thugs.

[chrisj]

Speaking of Canada, back in 2001 my wife and I went on vacation to Nova Scotia. I had rented a car in Portland, Maine and took it over on a ferry, and I was amazed at how cheap the price of gas was! Of course that was PER LITER. My excitement didn't last long. lol

[chrisj]

Right after gas hit nearly $4 a gallon a couple of years ago, it took a nose-dive to about $1.50 a gallon, slowly easing upward to where it remains today. Anyone remember paying that buck and a half?

[why?]

From the other thread

I agree with you on some points. It is ridiculous that the government pulls in more money on oil than those that do all the work. However, the other way to look at it is that gas taxes [supposedly] go to roads/bridges which works out nicely because it's the road users that are paying for such work more than those who for whatever reason don't drive and therefore don't pay this extra tax.

I certainly don't want gas above $3 a gallon for the sake of our economy. $4/ gallon devastates it. However, I still have to say that $2.50/gal is a very fair price for fuel. Of course it used to be cheaper but lets not ignore inflation. Honestly, you can't really expect gas to be $1.50/gal in 2010, do you? What was $1.50 in 1990, isn't $1.50 now. The first major problem with that is that everyone owns massive gas hogs and no fuel alternatives are ever explored. Am I an environmentalist? Nope. But I appreciate a sensible balance. Make anything cheap as dirt, and it gets severely wasted. I think $2.50 is a point when people are still conservative but it's not killing budgets or the economy. People are buying sensible cars although you still see a return to SUV's which suggest that yes, it's still inexpensive.

Anyway, I think we need a new thread. This is way off topic. :tongue:

Gas taxes go to our roads? You mean the ones that are falling apart, and the bridges that are literally falling down now?

Yea, maybe at one point that was true, but then again, at one point someone believed money collected for social security would not be stolen by congress, and look how well that worked.

Inflation is almost non existant. A table for inflation since 1913. (http://www.inflationdata.com/inflation/inflation_rate/historicalinflation.aspx) And an inflation calculator. (http://www.usinflationcalculator.com/)

Even during the late '90's gas was still 99 cents a gallon. In fact, using the above calculator, just using inflation, gas would have to have been 99 cents a gallon in 1980 for it to have been inflation that makes it $2.50 a gallon now.

Gas should be inexpensive because we have plenty of it, and it isn't going to run out any time soon. It is expensive because of greedy governmental types who think they can tax the heck out of anything, and they know they have people like you around who will say it is ok, because it is what we "should" be paying for gas.

As I noted before, oil companies pay more in taxes then they earn each year in profits. So that makes our gas prices at least twice as much as they should be.

Kinda sickening, huh?

[PhotoDu.de]

It is expensive because of greedy governmental types who think they can tax the heck out of anything, and they know they have people like you around who will say it is ok, because it is what we "should" be paying for gas.

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

[Altitude]

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

For some, the government is always the problem.

[why?]

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

The tax rates have not stayed the same. Just the latest in literally thousands of gas tax changes through the years. (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9E83DTO0.htm)

It is greedy to want to steal money and then use it for whatever they want to. And that is what they are doing at this point, just stealing more and more of our hard earned money.

You can't possibly think it is ok to waste trillions of dollars doing absolutely nothing.

And then there is the fact that at some mythical time gas taxes were suppose to only go for infrastructure maintenance and improvements, but that changed decades ago. Now they use the money for whatever suits their fancy.

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

[PhotoDu.de]

The tax rates have not stayed the same. Just the latest in literally thousands of gas tax changes through the years. (http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D9E83DTO0.htm)

It is greedy to want to steal money and then use it for whatever they want to. And that is what they are doing at this point, just stealing more and more of our hard earned money.

You can't possibly think it is ok to waste trillions of dollars doing absolutely nothing.

And then there is the fact that at some mythical time gas taxes were suppose to only go for infrastructure maintenance and improvements, but that changed decades ago. Now they use the money for whatever suits their fancy.

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

That article is just about one tax increase just in California.

The government does use the money for something, not nothing. They can't use it for whatever suits their fancy, only what the law allows them to.

In my humbled opinion, you are being very paranoid.


For some, the government is always the problem.

If the government is always a problem move to a country without one, like Somalia.

[STC]

For some, the government is always the problem.

Not government, but a Corporatocracy... Public (government) and Private (corporations) sleeping together in a technocratic business association...

Cheers!

[Altitude]

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

The same can be said of corporations no? Though you should really take it a step further and blame human greed and corruption since it is the people that comprise the governments and corporations that do these evil deeds, right?

[47_MasoN_47]

Power = Corruption.

Be it government (all types), corporations, or management at McDonalds. Anyone with power will, at some point, take part in some corrupting activity.

Gas is around $2.65/gal here.

[PhotoDu.de]

Not government, but a Corporatocracy... Public (government) and Private (corporations) sleeping together in a technocratic business association...


Couldn't agree more.

Power = Corruption.

Be it government (all types), corporations, or management at McDonalds. Anyone with power will, at some point, take part in some corrupting activity.


There are some altruist out there but not many. Your statement is generally true which is why all developed countries have checks on their powers.

[why?]

The same can be said of corporations no? Though you should really take it a step further and blame human greed and corruption since it is the people that comprise the governments and corporations that do these evil deeds, right?

There is a huge difference between governments and corporations. You can choose not to spend your money with a certain corporation. If you choose not to pay your taxes, you go to jail.

You give people that type of power, and they must be watched over like a hawk, or you get the quagmire of waste and bribes and corruption that we currently see.

That article is just about one tax increase just in California.

The government does use the money for something, not nothing. They can't use it for whatever suits their fancy, only what the law allows them to.

In my humbled opinion, you are being very paranoid.

If the government is always a problem move to a country without one, like Somalia.

This is just one of many thousands. Look at the date of the article. It just proves that gas taxes are rising all the time, just google it and you will see.

And all the governmental types have to do is write the law to be able to use the money for anything, they know they can do it, because they voted for something last week to give someone else a ton of money to use however they want.

Anarchy is suicide. If people were perfect, anarchy would absolutely be the perfect form of government. Since they are not, government is required to protect the people.

[PhotoDu.de]

Yes, taxes change. They are not the main reason for the volatility in the price of gas.

If you think government is ran ineffectively then vote for an effective government, or revolt.

And sorry if the Somalia bit was a little hyperbolic.

[why?]

Yes, taxes change. They are not the main reason for the volatility in the price of gas.

If you think government is ran ineffectively then vote for an effective government, or revolt.

And sorry if the Somalia bit was a little hyperbolic.

You are still trying to simplify things, it isn't like anyone can flip a switch, it took us at least 50 years to get where we are.

The volatility isn't that big a deal, although that is caused by fools and wise men betting on the future price, legalized gambling of the stock market. And that is just nuts, but that is the system we have, for better or usually for much, much worse.

[KrazyDawg]

So, while I hate $2.50 a gallon gas, we all have to pay it, and it only makes sense to get a car that gets the very best fuel economy.
I'm still paying $3.03 here. It's mainly because CA pays the highest taxes in the nation for gases at nearly $0.64 while KY is $0.37. Alaska pays the lowest tax yet they have one of the highest rates.

http://gasbuddy.com/Tax_Info.aspx

With all the revenue generated in gas taxes, there's still plenty of potholes and roads that need to be addressed.

[DevilGirl]

With all the revenue generated in gas taxes, there's still plenty of potholes and roads that need to be addressed.

There always will be just due to the simple factor of how many cars are on the roads these days. The more road/bridge is used, the sooner it needs repairs.

[Jitazuki]

Be thankful you don't live in the UK.

1 US Gallon of Petrol costs on average £4.56 ($7!!!)
The UK yaris will do 54 imperial-mpg which is around 45.8 us-mpg combined though.
But our insurance is also heavily taxed. I pay £2900 for insurance on my UK yaris which is roughly $4500. Just for insurance! Around 20% of this is tax.
On top of all this there is road tax varying from £20 - £955 dependant on CO2 emissions. (Luckily the yaris will only set you back £30($45) here)
And on top of this, we still have motorway(highway) toll roads!
The vehicle tax is also huge. The standard UK yaris has a 1.33L engine and 101bhp and costs £11200 OTR. ($17350!!)

And our streets aren't exactly "perfect" either..

[why?]

Be thankful you don't live in the UK.

1 US Gallon of Petrol costs on average £4.56 ($7!!!)
The UK yaris will do 54 imperial-mpg which is around 45.8 us-mpg combined though.
But our insurance is also heavily taxed. I pay £2900 for insurance on my UK yaris which is roughly $4500. Just for insurance! Around 20% of this is tax.
On top of all this there is road tax varying from £20 - £955 dependant on CO2 emissions. (Luckily the yaris will only set you back £30($45) here)
And on top of this, we still have motorway(highway) toll roads!
The vehicle tax is also huge. The standard UK yaris has a 1.33L engine and 101bhp and costs £11200 OTR. ($17350!!)

And our streets aren't exactly "perfect" either..

I've seen some of those crazy British and European taxes. I don't think I could bring myself to own a car if I lived over there, I'd have to live and work near a rail, or in a city with a good metro system.

Of course the Brits are starting to go in the right direction to, while we go in the opposite. You'd think our leaders would take a look at what they've been doing, and learn from their mistakes, but nope!

[Callisto]

There always will be just due to the simple factor of how many cars are on the roads these days. The more road/bridge is used, the sooner it needs repairs.

In theory, it should not matter, as the taxes on gasoline/road diesel would be proportional to the number of vehicles on the road and the amount of damage they cause. A small vehicle that does less damage also burns less fuel. The problem is not that there are too many cars, but that the tax money goes into a "general fund" where it is impossible to determine where the money came from and thus what it should be used for. It would be great if those "representatives" in the various governments would make a law that all tax revenue that is earmarked for a certain use goes into a specific account that can be accessed only for those uses. However, this will probably never happen because it makes pork-barrel that much more difficult.

[BailOut]

I've seen some of those crazy British and European taxes. I don't think I could bring myself to own a car if I lived over there, I'd have to live and work near a rail, or in a city with a good metro system.

Of course the Brits are starting to go in the right direction to, while we go in the opposite. You'd think our leaders would take a look at what they've been doing, and learn from their mistakes, but nope!
+1 on all points

[henry33]

I think that is still not so much 3 dollars a gallon means that each liter cost app. $0.8 cents I pay in Slovakia 1.3 euro for liter which is 1.7 dollars so do not complain because you have still cheaper gas then in whole europe :(

[yaris0985]

here in Montreal is average of 1.07$/liters
if I check by toyota yaris 42 liters/11 gallons
is 1gallons= 3.8 liters
1.07$ X 3.8=4.06$/gallons I dont know if good or not:iono:

but 7years ago when a start to drive wee pay 0.79$/liters=3.00$/gallons
and during the winter/long week-end/christmans a lot of reason to make the price going up to 1.20$/liters easy or 4.56$ gallons

here we have no taxes on the road or tolls fees,:thumbup:

[why?]

I think that is still not so much 3 dollars a gallon means that each liter cost app. $0.8 cents I pay in Slovakia 1.3 euro for liter which is 1.7 dollars so do not complain because you have still cheaper gas then in whole europe :(

here in Montreal is average of 1.07$/liters
if I check by toyota yaris 42 liters/11 gallons
is 1gallons= 3.8 liters
1.07$ X 3.8=4.06$/gallons I dont know if good or not:iono:

but 7years ago when a start to drive wee pay 0.79$/liters=3.00$/gallons
and during the winter/long week-end/christmans a lot of reason to make the price going up to 1.20$/liters easy or 4.56$ gallons

here we have no taxes on the road or tolls fees,:thumbup:

All of Europe and most of the rest of the world gas is taxed to death. And then of course the fools try and tell you how horrible the product is and we shouldn't use it, like they are doing with cigarettes.

You think these people would know how to think, and realize that if no one is buying it no one would be paying the absurd taxes.

[henry33]

why? you are right the taxation is horrible here but what can you do :(

[KrazyDawg]

Be thankful you don't live in the UK.

1 US Gallon of Petrol costs on average £4.56 ($7!!!)
The UK yaris will do 54 imperial-mpg which is around 45.8 us-mpg combined though.
But our insurance is also heavily taxed. I pay £2900 for insurance on my UK yaris which is roughly $4500. Just for insurance! Around 20% of this is tax.
On top of all this there is road tax varying from £20 - £955 dependant on CO2 emissions. (Luckily the yaris will only set you back £30($45) here)
And on top of this, we still have motorway(highway) toll roads!
The vehicle tax is also huge. The standard UK yaris has a 1.33L engine and 101bhp and costs £11200 OTR. ($17350!!)

And our streets aren't exactly "perfect" either..
But in return, you have universal health care and mass public transit. The cars in Europe also have higher MPG.

[why?]

why? you are right the taxation is horrible here but what can you do :(

Revolt. Or more easily, move.

But in return, you have universal health care and mass public transit. The cars in Europe also have higher MPG.

Universal health care that is becoming more basic with each passing day, and with more and more Brits also buying private health insurance supplements.

And the cars are taxed like crazy as well. I forget what it is, but it is usually 1 tax based on engine displacement, another on car size, and sometimes some other ones as well. All due every single year. Not sure any of our European friends have really mentioned all the car based taxes they pay.

Now the public transportation? That is awesome.

[chrisj]

I remember paying Road Tax when I lived in England. Don't remember what it was, but I do remember that I thought it was too much...every year.

[Yar Is Word]

"The cost to produce a gallon of gas is about $.90"

http://books.google.com/books?id=NcH2GecXTo4C&pg=PA141&lpg=PA141&dq=%22cost+to+produce+a+gallon+of+gas%3F%22&source=bl&ots=KhsV0RXFWi&sig=hMuK3guoulZfrBHoFFaM86BLi-A&hl=en&ei=KJyRTISiJYyTjAeP3ODXBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CBwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=%22cost%20to%20produce%20a%20gallon%20of%20gas%3 F%22&f=false

[Yar Is Word]

Some quotes on profits taken from a longer article:

http://www.arabianoilandgas.com/article-5320-worlds-10-largest-publicly-traded-oil-companies/3/


World's 10 largest publicly traded oil companies
by Kevin Baxter on Apr 19, 2009

numbers in billions $

1. Royal Dutch Shell (Netherlands)
Sales: 458.36 Profits: 26.28 Assets: 278.44 Market value: 135.10

2. ExxonMobil (United States)
Sales: 425.70 Profits: 45.22 Assets: 228.05 Market value: 335.54

3. BP (United Kingdom)
Sales: 361.14 Profits: 21.16 Assets: 228.24 Market value: 119.70

4. Chevron (United States)
Sales: 255.11 Profits: 23.93 Assets: 161.17 Market value: 121.70

5. Total (France)
Sales: 223.15 Profits: 14.74 Assets: 164.66 Market value: 112.90

6. Gazprom (Russia)
Sales: 97.29 Profits: 26.78 Assets: 276.81 Market value: 74.55

7. PetroChina (China)
Sales: 114.32 Profits: 19.94 Assets: 145.14 Market value: 270.56

8. ENI (Italy)
Sales: 158.32 Profits: 12.91 Assets: 278.44 Market value: 135.10

9 Petrobras-Petróleo Brasil (Brazil)
Sales: 92.08 Profits: 14.12 Assets: 120.68 Market value: 110.97

10 Sinopec-China Petroleum (China)
Sales: 154.28 Profits: 7.43 Assets: 100.41 Market value: 93.50

[mryaris]

"The cost to produce a gallon of gas is about $.90"


That book was written in 2008.....a lot has changed in 2 years. Today, refining is approximately 9% of the price of gas. In July 2010, the US average for a gallon of regular unleaded was $2.73, so refining costs are about 25 cents.

Assuming $2.73 a gallon, about 40 cents are taxes, 25 cents to refine, $1.80 for the oil itself & about 27 cents for distrubution & marketing, etc.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp


Also, historically speaking, we are paying about as much for gas as compared to median household incomes as we always have. There are, of course, spikes and drop offs, but generally speaking we have always paid about 10% of the median hourly wage for a gallon of gas.

The median US income in 2010 (approx.) is $52000, which equates to $25/hour. Yes.....I know not everyone makes that much but for historical statistical analysis it is irrelevant (just so long as the same computations are used....so you can compare apples to apples). Anyway, 10% of $25 is $2.50 and we are paying about $2.75 a gallon right now so it's a little more than 10%. I gathered up median household incomes & average price of a gallon of gas since 1960 (in 5-year increments) and aside from a huge spike in 1980 and the dip in the 1990's, all are within a few points of each other.

I guess what I am saying is we are essentially paying the same for gas today as we always have (in relation to our income), so even though it is pushing $3/gallon right now it is the same as we were paying in 1985 when gas was $1.20/gallon (due to higher levels of income).

I'll try to type in my chart, but it may not turn out very well. Here's the layout:

(I divided the annual salary by the typical 40 hour work week, or 2080 hours per year, to arrive at the median hourly wage).

Year/median annual income (hourly wage)/Price of 1 gal/ratio of 1 gal/hour

1960/$5600($2.69)/$0.31/11.5%
1965/$6900($3.32)/$0.31/9.33%
1970/$8734($4.20)/$0.36/8.57%
1975/$11800($5.76)/$0.57/10.05%
1980/$17710($8.51)/$1.25/14.68%
1985/$23618($11.35)/$1.20/10.57%
1990/$29943($14.40)/$1.16/8.05%
1995/$34076($16.38)/$1.15/7.02%
2000/$41994($20.19)/$1.52/7.53%
2005/$47084($22.64)/$2.48/10.95%
2010/$52029($25.01)/$2.72/10.87%

I got my numbers from government websites (IRS, BLS, etc.) and may or may not be 100% accurate (as far as actual median incomes), but should be very close.

I will re-crunch the numbers using the minimum wages and see how they stack up, but the above figures indicate that as a function of income, gas prices have been pretty consistent over the past 50 years.

So quit whining about how much gas is and get a better paying job! :smile:

[mryaris]

OK.....I crunched the numbers using minimum wage instead of median income. As expected the percentages are higher and the fluctuations greater, but again, aside from the spike in 1980 & again in 2005 the numbers are pretty consistant.

Here's the breakdown for my chart:

Year/hourly minimum wage/price of gal of gas/ratio of gal per hour

1960/$1.00/$0.31/31.0%
1965/$1.25/$0.31/24.8%
1970/$1.60/$0.36/22.5%
1975/$2.10/$0.57/27.1%
1980/$3.10/$1.25/40.3%
1985/$3.35/$1.20/35.8%
1990/$3.80/$1.16/30.5%
1995/$4.25/$1.15/27.0%
2000/$5.15/$1.52/29.5%
2005/$5.15/$2.48/48.1%
2010/$7.25/$2.72/37.5%


It's harder to quantify, but it looks like generally speaking, we have always paid about 35% of our hourly minimum wage on a gallon of gas. I should probably do each and every year to get a clearer picture.....this one has too many fluctuations to do every 5-years (but I wanted an apples to apples comparo).

[fmicle]

It's funny to me how people complain about $2.50 a gallon for gas. Let's see, a Grande something at Starbucks would cost about $4 , that's 16 oz. It's 8 times that in a gallon, so that makes $32 for a gallon of boiling water run through some ground beans... I haven't heard anyone complaining about that or blaming the government...

Why do people think they are entitled to cheap gas? Ferrchrissake, gas is cheaper than most drinking water at Safeway!!!

[Jitazuki]

I've seen some of those crazy British and European taxes. I don't think I could bring myself to own a car if I lived over there, I'd have to live and work near a rail, or in a city with a good metro system.

Of course the Brits are starting to go in the right direction to, while we go in the opposite. You'd think our leaders would take a look at what they've been doing, and learn from their mistakes, but nope!

We aren't technically going in to the right direction. Everything is simply taxed heavily because the UK Government has a huge multi-billion pound deficit that they are trying to pay off.

All of Europe and most of the rest of the world gas is taxed to death. And then of course the fools try and tell you how horrible the product is and we shouldn't use it, like they are doing with cigarettes.

You think these people would know how to think, and realize that if no one is buying it no one would be paying the absurd taxes.

I completely agree. They sell us things and say "Oh you're buying this and this is very bad for you and the environment."

Why sell it us then? Taxing it heavily is supposed to make us use it less apparently. But it's just another moneymaker. However you see it, there are people that need to use their cars for everyday use, even treehuggers drive cars.

But in return, you have universal health care and mass public transit. The cars in Europe also have higher MPG.

If you lived here you'd know the problems with the overcrowded and extremely poor public transport systems. I went to college for 2 years using the same bus service, which involves me changing the bus twice with the journey time of around 1 and a half hours. You wouldn't believe me if I'd tell you it was only 7 miles away.

With the new Conservative Government looking to privatize the current health care, it will not be as "universal" as you think it is.

[KrazyDawg]

If you lived here you'd know the problems with the overcrowded and extremely poor public transport systems. I went to college for 2 years using the same bus service, which involves me changing the bus twice with the journey time of around 1 and a half hours. You wouldn't believe me if I'd tell you it was only 7 miles away.
San Francisco's MUNI has bus lines that take the same amount of time for a city that's only 7x7 miles. The "train" service can take even longer but it's a light rail/underground "train." Besides the schedule, MUNI has its own issues with unions not wanting to work and expecting pay raises and bonuses all the time.

[why?]

lots of meaningless things.

Just comparing numbers is meaningless. And your average salaries are meaningless as well.
It's funny to me how people complain about $2.50 a gallon for gas. Let's see, a Grande something at Starbucks would cost about $4 , that's 16 oz. It's 8 times that in a gallon, so that makes $32 for a gallon of boiling water run through some ground beans... I haven't heard anyone complaining about that or blaming the government...

Why do people think they are entitled to cheap gas? Ferrchrissake, gas is cheaper than most drinking water at Safeway!!!

We are entitled to low taxes. When Starbucks pays more money in taxes than it earns in profits, I am sure people will complain.

Not to mention crappy coffee and bottled water are luxury items. No one would consider gas a luxury item, for 99% of the USA, it is a necessity.

We aren't technically going in to the right direction. Everything is simply taxed heavily because the UK Government has a huge multi-billion pound deficit that they are trying to pay off.

I completely agree. They sell us things and say "Oh you're buying this and this is very bad for you and the environment."

Why sell it us then? Taxing it heavily is supposed to make us use it less apparently. But it's just another moneymaker. However you see it, there are people that need to use their cars for everyday use, even treehuggers drive cars.

If you lived here you'd know the problems with the overcrowded and extremely poor public transport systems. I went to college for 2 years using the same bus service, which involves me changing the bus twice with the journey time of around 1 and a half hours. You wouldn't believe me if I'd tell you it was only 7 miles away.

With the new Conservative Government looking to privatize the current health care, it will not be as "universal" as you think it is.

Yes, the Brits have a large deficit, but I mean politically. They are going away from socialism and communism, and realizing free markets are better. The USA has a bunch of people willfully charging in the other proven failure direction.

[mryaris]

Just comparing numbers is meaningless. And your average salaries are meaningless as well.




Hardly meaningless. It allows you to compare what people were paying for gas (or anything else for that matter) back in the day to the present in relation to income. When you crunch the numbers you can see that we really aren't paying much more today at $2.73/gallon than people were back in 1960 when gas was $0.31/gallon.

This is essentially how the CPI is calculated and it is a very good economic indicator, so again.....hardly meaningless.

There are so many people complaining about how much gas is and that it is overtaxed......you can see that taxes are only 15% of the price of a gallon of gas. Taxed, yes. But hardly overtaxed. When that number approaches 50% (like most EU countries) then people can bitch and moan about high taxes that pay for meaningless social programs that don't work.

Here's another way to quantify it....assume you get 20MPG and drive 15,000 miles per year. You would use 750 gallons of gas per year.

In 1960, 750 gallons would cost you $232.50 (750 x $0.31) and in 2010 it would cost you $2047.50 (750 x $2.73). Now you can make a ratio of your yearly gas bill in relation to what you earn.


Median Income:

1960: $232.50/$5600= 4.15%
2010: $2047.50/$52,029= 3.93%

Minimum Wage:

1960: $232.50/$2080= 11.2%
2010: $2047.50/$15,080= 13.6%


Looks like a wash to me. So.....we are paying pretty much the same for gas today as people did 50 years ago.

You can also use an inflation caculator to find out what something today would cost 50 years ago and vice versa. Try this one: http://www.usinflationcalculator.com and see for yourself.

[fmicle]

^ +1,000,000. The numbers speak for themselves.

Oh, and by the way, Big Oil pays a lot of taxes alright... just not in the US... at least not the biggest chunk...

[chrisj]

I just think that everyone needs to conserve, whether it be for economic reasons or just because we shouldn't waste ever drop of everything just because we can. That's why everyone should drive a Yaris! :)

[vwtech]

fuel prices in the us are some of the cheapest in the world but people still complain about it. I spend 25 a week on gas and my commute is 32 miles ONE way which is double what most people drive so I dont see how you complain about spending less than 20 dollars a week on fuel.

[vwtech]

OK.....I crunched the numbers using minimum wage instead of median income. As expected the percentages are higher and the fluctuations greater, but again, aside from the spike in 1980 & again in 2005 the numbers are pretty consistant.

Here's the breakdown for my chart:

Year/hourly minimum wage/price of gal of gas/ratio of gal per hour

1960/$1.00/$0.31/31.0%
1965/$1.25/$0.31/24.8%
1970/$1.60/$0.36/22.5%
1975/$2.10/$0.57/27.1%
1980/$3.10/$1.25/40.3%
1985/$3.35/$1.20/35.8%
1990/$3.80/$1.16/30.5%
1995/$4.25/$1.15/27.0%
2000/$5.15/$1.52/29.5%
2005/$5.15/$2.48/48.1%
2010/$7.25/$2.72/37.5%


It's harder to quantify, but it looks like generally speaking, we have always paid about 35% of our hourly minimum wage on a gallon of gas. I should probably do each and every year to get a clearer picture.....this one has too many fluctuations to do every 5-years (but I wanted an apples to apples comparo).

cars have gotten alot more efficient though a car in the 60's probably got an average of 10mpg. we are spending 7% more per gallon but our cars are getting 30 more mpg than cars from the 60's.

[Black Yaris]

Blah, blah blah.... you can rant and rave, crunch #'s all you want.... you can do nothing about gas prices. just deal with it

[vwtech]

I love it when poeple complain about cigarette prices.

[Black Yaris]

I love it when poeple complain about cigarette prices.

kinda like bitchin about fuel prices..... if you think the prices are so bad, stop buying

[chrisj]

Isn't that why we bought Yaris' in the first place? So we wouldn't have to buy so much gas! Like I said before, I don't care how high gas prices go, because the higher they are, the less people who are on the roads. Good enough. Well, Yaris' will be on the road. ;)

[henry33]

kinda like bitchin about fuel prices..... if you think the prices are so bad, stop buying

that is right I quit smoking since the price went up again and I am not willing to pay for something that hurt me so much :biggrin:

I wan to react that in Europe we have to pay taxes. as someone said all countries have deficit and governments try to decrease it by taxing everything. The same happen in Slovakia but in comparison with other countries the road tax is not so horrible. I just do not understand where US government takes money (you do not have taxes on roads and gas etc) when you spend so much on wars (huge amount of money). :iono: Just curious I do not want to talk about the war whether it is right or wrong.

[why?]

I love it when poeple complain about cigarette prices.

i love it when politicians tax cigarettes higher, then complain that they don't get enough tax money for cigarettes, yet they still all make sure everyone says how bad cigarette smoking is for you.

kinda like bitchin about fuel prices..... if you think the prices are so bad, stop buying

yea, like that is really an option. That is like saying," you don't like breathing, so just stop breathing." not really a practical solution.

that is right I quit smoking since the price went up again and I am not willing to pay for something that hurt me so much :biggrin:

I wan to react that in Europe we have to pay taxes. as someone said all countries have deficit and governments try to decrease it by taxing everything. The same happen in Slovakia but in comparison with other countries the road tax is not so horrible. I just do not understand where US government takes money (you do not have taxes on roads and gas etc) when you spend so much on wars (huge amount of money). :iono: Just curious I do not want to talk about the war whether it is right or wrong.

US taxes are mostly income taxes. There are gas taxes, real estate taxes, and there are also taxes that we don't see, and that a lot of people don't know about, but we pay anyways.

[fmicle]

that is right I quit smoking since the price went up again and I am not willing to pay for something that hurt me so much :biggrin:

I wan to react that in Europe we have to pay taxes. as someone said all countries have deficit and governments try to decrease it by taxing everything. The same happen in Slovakia but in comparison with other countries the road tax is not so horrible. I just do not understand where US government takes money (you do not have taxes on roads and gas etc) when you spend so much on wars (huge amount of money). :iono: Just curious I do not want to talk about the war whether it is right or wrong.

It's a little bit of a different mind set here. The government is not meant to "feed" the people, as it is the tradition in Easter Europe, where the government is expected to take care of everything, from providing jobs to welfare, to pensions, to free education and so on.

Here you get just some basic services and then you're on your own. Taxes are lower, sometimes much lower than some European countries, you get to keep more of you heard earned money, but you're also expected to look after yourself more. If your house burns down, don't come crying to the government, you had better be insured.

That's the basic idea, the devil is in the details, of course :smile:

As for, where the war money is coming from? Well, it's complicated... Read about the "Bretton Woods System" and reserve currencies. The US is in a privileged situation because of the role of the US dollar in the world and can get away doing things other countries (especially smaller countries) can't.

[henry33]

so we have to moved to US :) if it would be easier I will do so ;)

[fmicle]

^ LOL, I am from Romania and before 1989, during Ceausescu's regime, there was a joke all over the country, because people wanted to leave so badly: they used to say, the last one to leave the country should turn off the lights. That was a hint at the draconian energy conservation policies that were being practiced in Romania in the 80's. From our perspective, countries like Slovakia were paradise :smile:

Did you ever have to show your ID card to get your ration of butter, oil and sugar? :smile:

[henry33]

ok I do not remember the times before 1989 since I was 4 but the Communism was also here. yeah we were unlucky to be in the east block after world war second :( look at the countries like spain and italy etc if they were under Communism for such a long time it would be the same.
now the situation is good in Slovakia I can't complain (of course there are better places to live) but this is y homeland. and before crisis we were the fast growing economy in Europe :)
but I haven't shown ID to buy a oil or sugar ;)

[fnkngrv]

i miss 99 cent gas

[STC]

i miss 99 cent gas

So do I! Last time I bought gas for under a dollar was 1998 in Altoona, PA. There was a price war between two mom and pop gas stations. One station got down to 92 cents!

Cheers!

[DevilGirl]

i miss 99 cent gas

So do I! Last time I bought gas for under a dollar was 1998 in Altoona, PA. There was a price war between two mom and pop gas stations. One station got down to 92 cents!

I remember paying between $0.89 and $0.99 a gallon when I first started driving in mid 1999... (Lehigh Valley, PA)

[chrisj]

I think a fair and easy to calculate price for fuel is $1 a gallon. That's just what it should always be.

[why?]

I think a fair and easy to calculate price for fuel is $1 a gallon. That's just what it should always be.

that would be so nice, I can handle spending $11 to fill my tank.

[chrisj]

that would be so nice, I can handle spending $11 to fill my tank.

Oh yeah... :smile:

[fmicle]

Why not making it even easier to calculate and make the damn thing free :biggrin:

Like air. After all, we're burning more air than fuel and we don't have to pay for it :wink:

[why?]

Why not making it even easier to calculate and make the damn thing free :biggrin:

Like air. After all, we're burning more air than fuel and we don't have to pay for it :wink:

you know if they could figure out how, they'd tax the air we breathe.

[fmicle]

you know if they could figure out how, they'd tax the air we breathe.

Who's "they"? :smile:

No, honestly, aren't "they" us? I mean, a neighbor, a cousin, an uncle, working for uncle Sam? And more importantly, didn't we put them there? :iono:

[chrisj]

I think $1 is fair. That's all I'm going to pay from now on. :)

[vwtech]

If gas was 1 dollar a gallon there would be alot more GIANT suv's like excursions and suburbans with one soccer mom yacking on her cell phone blocking up the roadways and cutting people off. Since the fuel prices have gone up the small car competition has gotten better and there are alot more small cars to choose from. I just don't see how people think 20 bucks a week in a yaris is alot of money for transportation.

[TLyttle]

Seconded. Fuel IS cheap in North America, and always has been; just because one can remember a buck a gallon, rest assured that everything else has gone up INCLUDING wages.

I started driving 40mpg+ cars when fuel was 35c a gallon (Imp), simply because I saw no reason to herd a couple of tons of iron from place to place with just me in it. Eventually the habit stuck, which is why I drive a Yaris now. The Europeans have always paid far more for fuel than we have, and that paid off in more efficient vehicles over history. Why do we feel that we "deserve" cheaper fuel than anyone else??

[DevilGirl]

Seconded. Fuel IS cheap in North America, and always has been; just because one can remember a buck a gallon, rest assured that everything else has gone up INCLUDING wages.

I started driving 40mpg+ cars when fuel was 35c a gallon (Imp), simply because I saw no reason to herd a couple of tons of iron from place to place with just me in it. Eventually the habit stuck, which is why I drive a Yaris now. The Europeans have always paid far more for fuel than we have, and that paid off in more efficient vehicles over history. Why do we feel that we "deserve" cheaper fuel than anyone else??

It's not so much the idea of cheaper than anyone else. It's more being cheaper across the board, no matter where you live.

[chrisj]

If gas was 1 dollar a gallon there would be alot more GIANT suv's like excursions and suburbans with one soccer mom yacking on her cell phone blocking up the roadways and cutting people off.

That's one thing I noticed when gas briefly got close to $4 a gallon in my area. Lots of room on the road! I loved that! My wife and I also started a trend of combining trips whenever possible which we have continued, even with the Yaris. Like a couple of people have said here, there's no reason to waste gas no matter if it were cheap or not.

We in America have that open-road, pony-car, I'll-never-take-public-transportation, yippee-kye-yay mentality that has been ingrained in us since forever. I'm 54 and all I wanted as a teenager was some fast, gas-hungry car I could go speeding down the road in. You see it today, in all the teenagers who want Mustangs or Chargers or Camaros or anything that has POWER. So, generation after generation is getting continually brainwashed by the American automakers that they really don't care as much about gas prices and saving natural resources as they do showing off in front of their buddies. And on it goes as they get older...

[KrazyDawg]

That's one thing I noticed when gas briefly got close to $4 a gallon in my area. Lots of room on the road! I loved that! My wife and I also started a trend of combining trips whenever possible which we have continued, even with the Yaris. Like a couple of people have said here, there's no reason to waste gas no matter if it were cheap or not.

We in America have that open-road, pony-car, I'll-never-take-public-transportation, yippee-kye-yay mentality that has been ingrained in us since forever. I'm 54 and all I wanted as a teenager was some fast, gas-hungry car I could go speeding down the road in. You see it today, in all the teenagers who want Mustangs or Chargers or Camaros or anything that has POWER. So, generation after generation is getting continually brainwashed by the American automakers that they really don't care as much about gas prices and saving natural resources as they do showing off in front of their buddies. And on it goes as they get older...
I don't think that's the mindset of all teenagers. When I was a teenager I wanted a BMW because of its looks. I didn't know anything about HP. When I got my license at nearly 24, I already wanted a fuel economy car. I lived off public transit for over 20 years in the snow and all over the country. I was happy just having a car and could care less about going 0 to 60 in 3 seconds. Try hauling groceries in a shopping cart for 8 blocks getting yelled at as a kid or carrying a 20lb bag of rice for over 1 mile.

[why?]

Who's "they"? :smile:

No, honestly, aren't "they" us? I mean, a neighbor, a cousin, an uncle, working for uncle Sam? And more importantly, didn't we put them there? :iono:

Or they could be someone we have no control over.UN global tax. (http://povertynewsblog.blogspot.com/2010/09/tax-on-financial-transactions-brought.html)

And they are not necessarily someone anyone voted for. Come on, there have been enough dead people voting to make anyone wonder about the way our elections really work.
If gas was 1 dollar a gallon there would be alot more GIANT suv's like excursions and suburbans with one soccer mom yacking on her cell phone blocking up the roadways and cutting people off. Since the fuel prices have gone up the small car competition has gotten better and there are alot more small cars to choose from. I just don't see how people think 20 bucks a week in a yaris is alot of money for transportation.
The fact that oil companies pay more money in taxes than they earn in profits is disgusting. It is not anybodies job to tell others what to do or drive.

We are suppose to be a free country, tons of taxes was never suppose to be part of the equation.

Seconded. Fuel IS cheap in North America, and always has been; just because one can remember a buck a gallon, rest assured that everything else has gone up INCLUDING wages.

I started driving 40mpg+ cars when fuel was 35c a gallon (Imp), simply because I saw no reason to herd a couple of tons of iron from place to place with just me in it. Eventually the habit stuck, which is why I drive a Yaris now. The Europeans have always paid far more for fuel than we have, and that paid off in more efficient vehicles over history. Why do we feel that we "deserve" cheaper fuel than anyone else??

Because we are smart enough to not allow our government to steal our money? Because we realize the majority of the rest of the worlds gas cost is taxes, and we would rather spend the money somewhere else? Because we don't want the government to control anything, never mind everything, and we would rather be left alone to take care of ourselves.

This is the problem, people just assuming we pay the right amount, when the cost is so much due to governments stealing our money, and nothing to do with the product.
That's one thing I noticed when gas briefly got close to $4 a gallon in my area. Lots of room on the road! I loved that! My wife and I also started a trend of combining trips whenever possible which we have continued, even with the Yaris. Like a couple of people have said here, there's no reason to waste gas no matter if it were cheap or not.

We in America have that open-road, pony-car, I'll-never-take-public-transportation, yippee-kye-yay mentality that has been ingrained in us since forever. I'm 54 and all I wanted as a teenager was some fast, gas-hungry car I could go speeding down the road in. You see it today, in all the teenagers who want Mustangs or Chargers or Camaros or anything that has POWER. So, generation after generation is getting continually brainwashed by the American automakers that they really don't care as much about gas prices and saving natural resources as they do showing off in front of their buddies. And on it goes as they get older...

Saving natural resources? It is against the law for the US to use any of its natural resources.

And then, people should be allowed to do what they want, not what some governmental peon tells them to.

[chrisj]

Well, hopefully I am being successful in talking my 17-year-old son into a Yaris. I just asked him if he wanted to work and spend a fair portion of his money on gas. Who would? Most everyone in the U.S. would, I guess.

[henry33]

thank got you have yarises with very good consumption other wise we will use the rest of oil in few years ;)

[Altitude]

The fact that oil companies pay more money in taxes than they earn in profits is disgusting. It is not anybodies job to tell others what to do or drive.


Please stop putting this forth as fact. It's just someone playing fast and loose with the numbers to get the free-marketeers all lathered up.

Nevermind the most obvious fact that corporations don't pay taxes, we do, through the cost of the service or goods they provide. No company would last long if it didn't pass these types of expenses onto the consumer.

[KrazyDawg]

With the new Conservative Government looking to privatize the current health care, it will not be as "universal" as you think it is.

People are willing to travel from the US to Mexico for health care because it's better and cheaper. Article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/09/22/mexico_mix_medical_tourism.DTL

[why?]

Please stop putting this forth as fact. It's just someone playing fast and loose with the numbers to get the free-marketeers all lathered up.

Nevermind the most obvious fact that corporations don't pay taxes, we do, through the cost of the service or goods they provide. No company would last long if it didn't pass these types of expenses onto the consumer.

it is the same thing, duh. In the end the product costs the consumer more. And it is a fact. Guess what? Most oil companies are publicly traded, so the real info is all out there.

While they were recording record profits last year, they were also writing checks to Uncle Sam to the tune of $100.7 billion -- two and a half times what they made in net profit. In fact, previous Tax Foundation research found that from 1977 to 2004, federal and state governments extracted $397 billion by taxing the profits of the largest oil companies and an additional $1.1 trillion in taxes at the pump. In today's dollars, that's $2.2 trillion. (http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/2195.html)

So again, use whatever term you want to. Exxon pays more money in taxes than they earn in income.

People are willing to travel from the US to Mexico for health care because it's better and cheaper. Article: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2010/09/22/mexico_mix_medical_tourism.DTL

Um, you got half of that right. They go to other countries because it is cheaper.

The rest of the planet comes to the USA because it is the best, by far. US medical tourism, from wikipedia. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism#United_States)

So they come here for people with brains, and Americans go other places for cheap.

Also note Companies come here to sell medical necessities for profit, while selling the same products in foreign markets at a substantial discount.

We could fix a lot of the US cost problem by making it harder for idiots to sue anyone they please. Tort Reform in TX and CA. (http://www.epmonthly.com/features/current-features/tort-reform-shows-positive-results-in-tx-and-ca/)

[fmicle]

We are suppose to be a free country, tons of taxes was never suppose to be part of the equation.
...
Because we don't want the government to control anything, never mind everything, and we would rather be left alone to take care of ourselves.


So, who would be building the roads, the airports, the schools, the stadiums and pay for police, fire departments and the military?

A truly "free country" where everybody does what they want and "take care of themselves" is Afganistan to give you one example. The guy with the biggest gun makes the law, because there are no laws and if there are any, there is no government to enforce it. A second example that comes to mind is Somalia.

I'm surprise that many Americans don't realize that you can't have a strong country without a strong government. And the government must be financed with taxes, that's how these things work, that's how they've always worked...

The only things left for discussion in my mind are nuances...

Even conservatives know it and they'll tell you one thing (smaller government, blah blah blah) but will do exactly the opposite when in power. I mean come on, it's a no-brainer, why would I undermine my own power, once I get it?

[krolos]

make the rich pay the tax, they are suppose to pay in the first place,
in fact I think they should Pay more.

And look at european countries , higher taxes Yes,but way better health care ,education and overall
standard of living.

Free Country? maybe for the The Rich.

[henry33]

rich people can afford to pay people who can make their taxes lower then your are ! that is why rich people don't pay taxes

[krolos]

rich people can afford to pay people who can make their taxes lower then your are ! that is why rich people don't pay taxes

That right, that why all the politicians/policies makers ,make em to favor
them " the rich" and not us the people.

[why?]

So, who would be building the roads, the airports, the schools, the stadiums and pay for police, fire departments and the military?

A truly "free country" where everybody does what they want and "take care of themselves" is Afganistan to give you one example. The guy with the biggest gun makes the law, because there are no laws and if there are any, there is no government to enforce it. A second example that comes to mind is Somalia.

I'm surprise that many Americans don't realize that you can't have a strong country without a strong government. And the government must be financed with taxes, that's how these things work, that's how they've always worked...

The only things left for discussion in my mind are nuances...

Even conservatives know it and they'll tell you one thing (smaller government, blah blah blah) but will do exactly the opposite when in power. I mean come on, it's a no-brainer, why would I undermine my own power, once I get it?

So the only thing with any power at all is the federal government? Everything else is inept? I don't think so.

The only thing you mentioned that should be payed for by the federal government is the military, in fact it is the main reason they exist, to protect the people.

The rest should be payed for by state and local governments, and private companies, not the federal government. Stadiums though should be payed for 100% by the owners and the teams. There should be 0 public funds to pay for stadiums, that is absurd.

The USA is unique, and it should remain so. We are the only country in the world where one state, Oregon, can have a communist health care system, and another state, Texas, can have a system that is completely free and they both work for their states.

The way we can remain the greatest country on the planet is to allow states like Oregon and Cali to be as socialist as they want, while allowing states like Texas and Florida to be as capitalist as they want.

The federal government is way too large, and is pretending we are a small european country of 50 million or so, which we are most definitely not. Our country is bankrupt because of this.

We were created as a two tier government, with the federal government only doing things the states themselves needed to cooperate on, while the states handling everything else, so they could go their own way. And it worked perfectly while it was allowed to. I mean there is a reason we are the most powerful country on the planet while only being around a few hundred years.

Anarchy is not freedom, anarchy is suicide.

Oh, and it is amazing you've met every conservative out their, I mean with the way you are talking it sounds like you have never even turned on the radio to learn from the people who know what they are talking about best.

And the last real conservative President was Ronald Reagan. Don't let anyone try and convince you either of the Bush's were conservative. They were large government progressive's who happened to also be in favor of the military.

The debate about government has been so twisted and contrived so people only see left and right, and that is not even scratching the surface. The entire premise has been redefined so much as to not allow the reality of what our government was founded on, as the founding fathers literally would not be anywhere on the left-right scale.

And a strong national government does not mean a hulking bureaucratic waste filled barge that we have now. Basically right now our government is the 800 lb guy that cannot even walk. What we want the feds to be is the CEO who only does the little cleaning up, while allowing the rest of the company, the states, to do the heavy lifting.

make the rich pay the tax, they are suppose to pay in the first place,
in fact I think they should Pay more.

And look at european countries , higher taxes Yes,but way better health care ,education and overall
standard of living.

Free Country? maybe for the The Rich.

Um, worse health care, worse education, worse standard of living, and oh yeah, they are all bankrupt to boot.


---------------------------------------------------------------------

And now back to fuel prices, it really amazes me how they differ from place to place. I mean here in florida regular gas is about $2.50, while when I went back to Mass last week, they all averaged about $3 a gallon.

[fmicle]

And the last real conservative President was Ronald Reagan.


Didn't Reagan run huge deficits and quadrupled the US national debt? Just asking... :wink:


And a strong national government does not mean a hulking bureaucratic waste filled barge that we have now. Basically right now our government is the 800 lb guy that cannot even walk. What we want the feds to be is the CEO who only does the little cleaning up, while allowing the rest of the company, the states, to do the heavy lifting.


Now this is where I fully agree with you :smile:

[fmicle]

As for the rich people paying more taxes, in all fairness, they do pay more taxes. My issue is that they can actually afford to pay more taxes, because they have a lot more money (duh). A tax increase of $3k a year for me would mean that I may have to skip that planned vacation to Hawaii, a tax increase of $150k a year for Warren Buffet means what? He'll have a little less money to invest into a hedge fund? I really can't see how a tax increase for the rich would affect their lifestyle in the slightest.

But, as I said in the beginning, let's not forget that they already pay the biggest share, as it is described in this awesome article:

http://www.amazingposts.com/2008/07/how-tax-system-works.html

[why?]

Didn't Reagan run huge deficits and quadrupled the US national debt? Just asking... :wink:



Now this is where I fully agree with you :smile:

You're funny.

As for the rich people paying more taxes, in all fairness, they do pay more taxes. My issue is that they can actually afford to pay more taxes, because they have a lot more money (duh). A tax increase of $3k a year for me would mean that I may have to skip that planned vacation to Hawaii, a tax increase of $150k a year for Warren Buffet means what? He'll have a little less money to invest into a hedge fund? I really can't see how a tax increase for the rich would affect their lifestyle in the slightest.

But, as I said in the beginning, let's not forget that they already pay the biggest share, as it is described in this awesome article:

http://www.amazingposts.com/2008/07/how-tax-system-works.html

Um, a 150k tax increase on warren buffet would prolly means he fires a few people, of course with how cheap he is in paying his staff, he'd prolly have to fire 4 or 5 people or more to make up the difference.

But in regards to actual companies, every penny they pay in taxes is less money they can pay to employees, shareholders, and it also means their products have to be more expensive as well.

[krolos]

As far as % goes the rich pay less tax, anyone recall the 60 minutes interview
with WARREN Buffet, he said it himself, his staff pays around the the 28%
and himself only 17%, like I said earlier government by the Rich, For the Rich.

To give the rich tax breaks, republicans argue will trickle down to the people
and create more jobs better pay, yeah right? since when has that ever been the case, ship the jobs overseas and more money in their fat pockets, thanks to 8 years of The Bush/Cheney administration we are now at the brink of
the GREAT DEPRESSION # 2.

The concept of a a free Country {Live Free Or Die} has been brain washed into to The American People now for several Centuries, only the Rich has
reaped the the benifits of that concept.

[fmicle]

As far as % goes the rich pay less tax, anyone recall the 60 minutes interview
with WARREN Buffet, he said it himself, his staff pays around the the 28%
and himself only 17%, like I said earlier government by the Rich, For the Rich.

To give the rich tax breaks, republicans argue will trickle down to the people
and create more jobs better pay, yeah right? since when has that ever been the case, ship the jobs overseas and more money in their fat pockets, thanks to 8 years of The Bush/Cheney administration we are now at the brink of
the GREAT DEPRESSION # 2.

The concept of a a free Country {Live Free Or Die} has been brain washed into to The American People now for several Centuries, only the Rich has
reaped the the benifits of that concept.

+ 1,000,000

[fmicle]

You're funny.

Hmm... let's see, under Reagan the debt raised from $997 billion to $2.85 trillion... Ooops, my bad, that's triple, not quadruple...

And I guess Reagan wasn't trying to be funny when he said that the debt was the "greatest disappointment" of his presidency.

[krolos]

The Forbes Fortune 400 wealthiest Americans now again got richer by a big
8%, thanks to the Courtesy of the Bush/Cheney Polices.
Look were the the middle class {what middle class?} working Americans are
today, well someone has to Pay right?.
when Reagan took office in 1981 the national dept was 997 billion, gave the rich big tax cuts, by the end of the Reagan/W.H.bush 12 years later it was a monstrous 4 Trillion,
Clinton took Office and reversed those policies, raised taxes on the rich and lowered them for the
middle class/ lower class, it resulted in one of the best economic times this country has ever seen,maybe the last.
When W.Bush took office Clinton had left a 236 Billion Surplus, when W. Bush left Office it was a
565 billion dept 150 billion of that got stolen out of Social Security.

[fmicle]

^ Yep, very sad. I have yet to see a true conservative leadership that will put their money where their mouth is. One can dream...

[walt101786]

man i wish its 2.50 in Los Angeles, CA....lol man right now its around 3.09-3.15 a gallon, and that's the cheapest that they have so far.....and that's only the average for well-branded gas like Shell, Cheveron, 76...but its hard to find anything that's lower than 3.09 for those branded gas...the only ones that i might know that might sell it cheaper are probably Arco or some other independent gas station....i wish that gas could go back to $2-$2.50 a gallon, which i don't think it'll happen anytime soon...and i know for a fact that some other states have gas like around $3.50 a gallon or so....

[sickpuppy1]

Filled up for 2.54/gallon this weekend.

[cleong]

I pay the equivalent of US$5/gallon over here.

[aygo]

$5.30 (incl tax) in germany. :frown:

[docB]

$2.95 / gal in western New York. 10% ethanol garbage. It makes me feel so much better that some old crow at the oil company is filling his pockets off of my hard earned pay. Let alone some towel head is making millions a day of this stuff.

[LA Yaris]

[QUOTE= Let alone some towel head is making millions a day of this stuff.[/QUOTE]

+1